7 Cultures

[[EB]Demulon]

7 cultures which I think were most noticable and should be included:
Roman (obviously in Italy) and will expand as the Republic grows
Phoenician - Carthage, Tyre and perhaps a minority along coastal towns to reflect trade enclaves?
Hellene - Greece, Macedon, Epirus, noticable minorities from Anatolia to Baktria, Persepolis, major cities of Ptolemy, Massilia, Sicilian towns, Taras, minority trader groups/mercenaries in throughout the Mediterranean?
Celt - maps show that they were abundant for Casse, Gallic factions, Iberia, southern Germany to modern Poland, Bulgaria. Galatia and minorities in other Anatolian towns?
Persian - old satraps: Anatolia to Baktria/Persepolis, minorities in Egypt?
Eastern Barbarian - represents any miscellaneous cultures east of the Bosphorus (steppe nomads, Arabians)
Western Barbarian - west of the Bosphorus (Iberians, Germans, Finnic tribes)

I just don't know where Africans would fit in this....
Any thoughts?
Aside from that, I think that EB could populate the map with these 7 cultures.

[Bellum]

How many cultures can there be? 'Eastern/Western Barbarians' doesn't sound EB like at all.

[Malik of Sindh]

7 cultures maximum.

[Bellum]

Well I'm sure the EB team will work something out that's presentable. They always do.

My best bet would be something like

Roman
Greek
Celt
Nomad
Phoenician
Iberian
German

Lets see... In no particular order

Romani - Roman
Epeiros - Greek
Koinon Hellenon - Greek
Makedonia - Greek
AS - Greek
Ptolemaioi - Greek
Karthadastim - Phoenician
Lusotannan - Iberian
Aedui - Celt
Casse - Celt
Arverni - Celt
Sweboz - German
Getai - Celt?
Pavlah - Greek/Nomad (depending on govt, I suppose)
Sauromatae - Nomad
Saka - Nomad
Saba - ?
Backtria - Greek
Pontos - Greek? Nomad? What?
Hayasdan - Nomad?


Of course there are cultures that are only used once that could be replaced with something else. German and Celt culture are close enough that they can share, and Iberian's are as well. I can also see a case for Persian or Armenian (Persian could be more inclusive than Armenian, perhaps). I don't know anything about the Saba other than glancing at it's info while choosing a campaign.

[Dumbass]

What's wrong with EB using the current system?

[[EB]Demulon]

EB currently does not use cultures, Dumbass. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

So here's the situation. It seems we have 5 cultures that are likely to be used. Two more to reflect the hundred remaining cultures of Europe, Asia, and Africa. The Germans, I don't think, were much of a threat to the status quo prior to the end of the Roman Republic, and the chances of them imposing their culture on the neighbouring Celts. Likewise, I don't think Africans and Arabians were in a position to create a large empire as this time, like conquering and Africanizing Carthage for example.
Here's what I think will be the cultural makeups of certain regions...
Italian Peninsula - Celts in the northern regions, perhaps with a small Roman minority (5%) to reflect traders etc. This would also give the player, and hopefully, AI an incentive to bring these minorities into the 'rightful' faction.
Romans would represent a majority, perhaps with a miscellaneous culture to reflect the Samnites, Campanians, etc which in time would become Romanized. In the south and in Sicily, would be a Greek majority, say 90% Greek and the other 10% being Roman and Phoenician colonists.

Anatolia - Greek and Persian majority (that is, if the Greeks did not assimilate the Persians by 272BC). Some 30% Celt population in Thrace, some 80% in Galatia. Also, there could be a misc. culture to reflect the mountainous peoples who escaped Greek or Persian assimilation?

Bactria - mostly steppe nomads and Persians with a Greek minority. This would compel that faction to recruit fewer Greek units and rely more on native troops

Egypt - this one will be tricky. Obviously, the Greeks were in charge at this time, but what about the rest of the country? Sure, there were likely still some Persians, but what about the Africans, the Egyptians etc. Should they be all listed under Other?

As it stands, all cultures unfortunately cannot be represented so I think it would be best to focus on the cultures that had a likely chance at expanding into large empires

[Admetos]

I must have mis-read your last post Demulon. Cultures determine the general's portraits and GUI a faction uses, and likewise, determines what kind of portraits a rebel settlement will use, not the ethical make-up in a certain region.

[Bellum]

He is (I assume) talking about removing 'religion' and replacing it with 'culture' (as was done in Britannia).

[IrishArmenian]

Bellum, lose the 'Iberian' (they could be given a Celtic culture) and add... I don't like the word 'Persian' as so maybe Former Satrapy? Hayastan is not nomadic, we never were.
Ohhhh! I thought this was the culture, which seemed odd as you already had seven good ones for EB.

[[EB]Demulon]

I didn't know that cultures deal with portraits.
To stereotype ancient cultures based on modern popular cultures....
I would assume that Celts would be characterized though long red/blonde hair?
Nomads with long hair and several tattoos?
Greeks with togas and Corinthian helmets?
Arabians with darker skin complexion?
Romans - in classic EB1 attire.
Persians with darker hair, covered with jewelry
etc...
Um, is there going to be African negroes represented? I don't think they were too important in the development of Europe during this time, so to avoid having to make portraits for them I would contract the current map to the borders of Numidia and the northern Nile

I can't wait to see how EB will represent cultures!

[Bellum]

The EB team tries to fully represent factions geographically, at least at the start of the game. Making the map smaller would

1: Not change all that much as the Sahara isn't a usual region, and does serve a purpose
2: Remove the Saba from the game and greatly limit Ptolemy.

[Pharnakes]

Well, IDK but surely eb2 wil just use the 7 cultures we already have, and assign a religon to each culture.


Though I was thinking if you could somehow "Cross combine" the two methods, to give you 49 possibilties (7X7). Then each faction could have a unique culture. I haven't workes it through in any detail, though I beilive it something, could possibly be done.

Would be really cool if each faction could have a "unique" culture.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Cultures in EB2 will probably be the same as they are in EB1. However 'culture' as religion may be a different grouping. For example, if 'Hellenistic' is one of the groups then it would include the cultures 'Western Greek', 'Eastern Greek', and 'Roman'. Things like this would allow the culture settings and 'relgious' 'cultures' to be different from eachother.

The team hasn't really made any decisions about this, though.

[CaesarAugustus]

Culture as religion would be interesting, but how would the population be "converted"? Would there be a priest-like unit (bad idea). Or would it be affected by building your faction's buildings, or government type, or exterminating the population and then allow it to grow again with settlers?

[Bellum]

I'm in favor of as slow a rate of change as possible, effected, of course, by traits and building's. Colonies, for instance, would noticeably increase rate of change, and having buildings of the same culture in general should also have some effect.

[Bactron]

Hello I would like to ask: how will the EB team deal with familly member portraits in EB2? Will you import the ones from Rome Total war or some other option is on the table?

[IrishArmenian]

Maybe certain limits could be coded? Say there can only be a minimum of 30% of a native culture in an area, for example.

[Pharnakes]

In many cases, not really historicaly true, though. If it is even possible. And given how religon works, it would be all but impossible to conquer anywhere but your own culture.

[gamegeek2]

How about:

Iberian-Caucasian (language links; tentative) Iberi, Lusotanaan, etc.
Greco-Roman (they are very similar) - Romani, KH, Maks, etc.
Indo-Iranian - Baktria, Pahlava, Pontos, Hayasadan
Celtic - Casse, Arverni, Aedui, Belgae, Celtiberi, Norici, etc.
Germanic - Sweboz, Heruskoz, etc.
Afro-Asiatic/Semitic - Sab'yn, Ponnim, Feenikim, Aithiopkoi, etc.
Paleo-Balkan (includes Balto-Slavic, heritage links) Getai, Thraikioi, etc.

[[EB]Demulon]

yeah it was the Britain campaign that got me thinking about cultural conversion and the like. I played as the Irish and had expelled the English from Ireland, and noticed that the English majority in the north slowly began to become Irish.
Then I began to think of how this could be applied to my favorite mod.

I think that cultural conversion could take place in many forms.
exterminating the population would be the quickest way to remove undesirable cultures, but this would make your recent conquest unprofitable in the long run.

Making them slaves would help dilute the population, but expect mad unrest!

Simply occupying the settlement should play out much differently. If it could be implemented I would like it to take longer to subjugate larger settlements than smaller ones.
Building a lvl. 1 gov't should be the primary means of cultural conversion. That being said, it should take very long to build and should lead to much unrest. This would force you and the AI to keep large garrisons in these towns until the natives become complacent with your rule.
On the other side, a lvl. 4 puppet government should be quick to build and lead to minimal unrest. However, income should be much lower for this region, while the player will only be allowed to construct limited buildings. Only military buildings and those based on trade and should be allowed to be built ie. garrisons, roads. Cultural buildings like shrines and theaters should be restricted for lvl. 4 gov'ts. In essence, they will be a quick solution to invasion and any altercation in gov't, such as lvl. 2 and lvl. 3 gov'ts, should be met with increasing resistance, respectively.
lvl. 2 and lvl. 3 gov'ts should quicken cultural conversion rate.

I think building military settler and trade colonies should minimally alter the conversion rate.

Other buildings like wonders should affect culture as well. ie, keeping old Persian wonders will make it harder for a Greek power to enforce its culture in the east. Other starting wonders should continue to affect cultures well into the game, such as Alexander's tomb, which, if not destroyed, will continue to Hellenize Egypt. It would be a welcome bonus if destroying such structures would anger those it appeases. So destroying that massive temple of Zeus should still give you a lot of money, but will trigger a stack of pissed off Eleutheroi.

Overall, cultural conversion should take place at a slow rate (or fast depending on how much money you are willing to spend) so that raising a Roman majority in Cisalpine Gaul will take some 400 turns...that is, if you don't massacre the native Celts and set up a Roman majority in a land with virtually no people.

[Bellum]

Here you would have to find a balance between reality and balance. Social movement between peoples quite often leads to conflict. Things that happened a thousand years ago still have an effect on conflicts today, from global to local.

Having a province that you need to win the game and having to initiate multiple genocide programs to control is a problem we already have in some places, though, and no one likes that.

[Foot]

Iberian-Caucasian (language links; tentative) Iberi, Lusotanaan, etc.

WTF!? What has the Iberian peninsular got to do with the Caucasus other than the greeks called a small Kingdom by the same name as they called the peninsular in western europe. They have nothing to do with each other.

Foot

[IrishArmenian]

Thanks, foot. Was about to jump on that.

[Pharnakes]

What needs to be done, is wrk out a way to change the rate of cultual assimilation according to which goverment type you install.

Also maybe type 1 govs could "reform" and become avalible once a prov is say >90% your culture?

[Dibran88]

your missing the Illiriyan culture. although historians say illiriyans and hellens evolved from pelasgian, they still were seperate cultures at that time. why do you forget to incorporate this? illiriya played a big part at that time.

[Admetos]

And you're forgetting the hardcodes. And, seeing as there's no faction in Illyria at the moment, they're not exactly going to get precedence.

[Dibran88]

Actually Iliriya was a faction, they controlled what today is Albania and Kosova, as well as part of Epiros. they never collapsed or assimilated, they were defeated by Alexander and joined his ranks. but an iliriya did exist, because if anything Alexander united the warring Iliriyan tribes. So YES it should be considered, as every mod ignores this faction, and if they acknowledge them. they are unplayable rebels. which is ridiculous. even m2tw mods base in the time of ottoman occupation leaves Albania out of playable factions, when they won independence and terribly hurt the ottoman empire. I find it quite ridiculous how lesser involved factions are incorporated into a game. when Iliriyan's even thought controlled by others were a faction. if this mod is trying to aim for historical accuracy, then they should incorporate it. because if i can step in as the Hellene faction and conquer all of Europe thats not necessarily historical accuracy. The team should widen there horizons, and incorporate factions that every European and medieval mod leaves out, if they have played an important role at that time which ILIRIYA undoubtedly did. I'm not here to create an argument. But i believe everyone deserves to see the Illiriyan faction in game. I have red some topics and a lot of people want to see Iliriya as a playable faction. And if your trying to satisfy the requests of your gamers. you should incorporate it. With all do respect all historians have mentioned Illiriya as a major role taker in European history. and with that being said. whether they were an empire or not they are important. and should not be unplayable rebels.

[Admetos]

Firstly, Illyria wasn't united as a single power in this time period. Secondly, I was talking about there being no faction there in game. Thirdly, EB aren't going to consider an Illyrian tribe as a faction just because other mods don't. If you're desperate to play Illryia, then I think RTR has it.

[azzbaz]

Firstly, Illyria wasn't united as a single power in this time period. Secondly, I was talking about there being no faction there in game. Thirdly, EB aren't going to consider an Illyrian tribe as a faction just because other mods don't. If you're desperate to play Illryia, then I think RTR has it.

No, they are not united as a a single power but neither are the dacian/getae, germanic tribes and gallic tribes. You represent these people by the most powerful tribes (ie, for the Illyroi, the Ardiaei). There are 10 new factions in EB2, and I think Illyria should be top of the list.

[Admetos]

Hence why I said about an Illyrian tribe being represented.