EBII Traits

[[EB]Demulon]

1. I think that life expectancy should be decreased. Most generals live well into their 60s, but wasn't it true that people on average didn't even make it to 50? Even for those in the upper strata of society.

2. A trait or ancillary to represent the amount of slaves someone owned. This could work for or against someone in influence/wealth.

Thoughts?

[Pharnakes]

The first I don't know enough about to coment on, the second sugestion really belongs in the eb 1.0 forum, as there is nothing to prevent it being implemented in eb for RTW.

I think it is a good idea though. Should be tied into the wealthy trait line.

[[EB]Demulon]

I just assumed that EB1 was more or less complete and that future patches would refine the existing game. Plus I assumed that adding more traits would bog the script even more.

I think a trait like 'Owns over 20 Slaves' trait would add a cool element of role playing by having an affect of +1 influence and a description of something like: 'whether in his retinue or working on his estate, the amount of slaves this man owns is an example to all of his wealth.'

As for life expectancy, I think it would be nice to put more emphasis on a general's health. IMO it would be more realistic if generals became ill more often, and although their chances of recovery will be high (especially in cities with healers), they may die suddenly. It would make you think twice before giving someone control of an army.

btw, its nice to have you back, Pharnakes
we gotta battle online again like we did during the days of old

[Folgore]

1. I think that life expectancy should be decreased. Most generals live well into their 60s, but wasn't it true that people on average didn't even make it to 50? Even for those in the upper strata of society.

Actually, I think it was much higher, just look at Alexander's successors. Antigonos lived to be 81 and was killed in battle. Seleukos lived to be 77 and was assisinated. Lysimachos was 74 when he was killed in battle and Ptolemy, the only one of the Diadochi to die from old age lived to be 84.

[Tretii]

Actually, I think it was much higher, just look at Alexander's successors. Antigonos lived to be 81 and was killed in battle. Seleukos lived to be 77 and was assisinated. Lysimachos was 74 when he was killed in battle and Ptolemy, the only one of the Diadochi to die from old age lived to be 84.

Agreed. Life expectancy of those rich rulers was pretty high even by today's standards. Octavian August for example died at age of 77 which is not that young.

[Watchman]

The average gets kinda skewed by high infant mortality and deaths due to unnatural causes (violence, famine, disease...), y'see. Generally if a person made it into adulthood outside the aforementioned causes of premature death his or her life expectancy wasn't too different from what you get today, what now the piss poor commoners for obvious reasons had some real difficulties keeping the unproductive elderly around.

[[EB]Demulon]

I think the pessimism characteristic should allow the possibility for a character's suicide. If they have a gloomy disposition, then I think the possibilities of family members ending their own lives should increase
Or was suicide done mainly for political/religious reasons, like dishonour or failed battle??

[Foot]

We cannot kill off characters in a campaign unless we know there name, for which there is no script command.

Foot

[fahrenheit]

I think the pessimism characteristic should allow the possibility for a character's suicide.

We could make a character suicidal, but I dont think we can actually have them kill themselves.

[IrishArmenian]

Maybe you could lower the hitpoints.

[fahrenheit]

Maybe you could lower the hitpoints.

That would be one of the ways along with lower influence, movement points, higher assassination, but as far as I know there is no way to directly kill a character based on a trait.

[I Am Herenow]

Then how did you guys kill those spies at the start of the campaign (for a realistic view of the world for each faction)?

[Foot]

Because we know those spies names. All starting characters can be killed as we set their names in descr_strat. We also know the names of scripted characters that we put in. All other characters are uncontrollable essentially, as we don't know their name.

Foot

[konny]

That would be one of the ways along with lower influence, movement points, higher assassination, but as far as I know there is no way to directly kill a character based on a trait.

I think you should not reduce movement points because of any personal reasons of that person to travel faster or slower (beeing younger, older, healthy, sick and the like). Even someone "on his deathbed" would travel around faster as a single person (together with his mounted bodyguard) than an army fresh from the barracks. The only exception I can think of would be a very extravagant character that insits to bring on 72 personal servants, including 12 cooks, and some 260 carts for "just the most important" personal luggage for a quick raid.

I would link the MPs to the strategical skills (or their absence) of that character. They should also go along with the suplly situation: A "well suplied" army is most likely in or close to its homelands: it can relay on its magazines, is supported by the local population and knows all the highways and byways of the land. A "starving" army is somewhere deep in hostile territory and is moving with much more care.

[fahrenheit]

There is ways to lower the death of old age requirement age, but it doesn't guarantee anything, a person will be as likely to live to 70 as they are to die of 30.

[Perturabo]

Agreed. Life expectancy of those rich rulers was pretty high even by today's standards. Octavian August for example died at age of 77 which is not that young.

Life expectancy for many of the ancients was actually very high. It was mostly about the time of the 'Industrial Revolution' that living standards and thus life expectancy dropped dramatically. Only in modern times have the life expectancies in the western world gone back up to what they were prior to this period.

One explanation I have heard is that food was generally of a quality more suited to healthy living (unprocessed meats, rhy/brown breads and less sugar) and the ancients generally had better exercise. Thus by living standards I am referring to a lifestyle conductive to longevity, not to luxuries.

Naturally the peasant classes have been treated poorly over the ages and as such their life expectancy would vary greatly. All things being equal however, the rulers often lived for times comparable with the present, if not better.

[Gazius]

Because we know those spies names. All starting characters can be killed as we set their names in descr_strat. We also know the names of scripted characters that we put in. All other characters are uncontrollable essentially, as we don't know their name.

Foot

Out of idle curiosity, what would it take to spawn all charactersr by script, and only have the natural generals be recruitable family members? Is there a way you could script a generator and still be able to keep track of these people?

[Foot]

Out of idle curiosity, what would it take to spawn all charactersr by script, and only have the natural generals be recruitable family members? Is there a way you could script a generator and still be able to keep track of these people?

A different engine.

Foot

[lobf]

Reguarding the age limits: I seem to recall units like the Theban Sacred Band would brag that not one of their number was under sixty. Seems to me people not only lived that long but could still be of fighting age.

[General Appo]

Just wondering, is there any way to tracks units age and force you to retrain them say every 20 year? Of course you could retrain them for other reasons, and just some of the guys would be old. The experience should also decrease, a unit left garrisoning for a long time should not be able to draw on the experience earned in a battle fought 200 years ago.

[Foot]

Just wondering, is there any way to tracks units age and force you to retrain them say every 20 year? Of course you could retrain them for other reasons, and just some of the guys would be old. The experience should also decrease, a unit left garrisoning for a long time should not be able to draw on the experience earned in a battle fought 200 years ago.

Nope impossible. The game engine assumes that an automatic replacement of older troops for younger ones. And we cannot look at individual units with the script or trait engine.

Foot

[General Appo]

Oh. And there´s no way to decrease the experience of units with one chevron say every 20th year?

[Foot]

As I said, we cannot look at individual units with the script or trait engine.

Foot

[General Appo]

Oh, I misunderstood that a bit. I didn´t realise that you couldn´t track unit age and so the experience decresement would happen to every unit, not just the aged ones. At least I think that´s what you mean.

[Bellum]

Should have been like in MTW where every unit had a named commander. Ah, well. Perhaps in Empire...

[antisocialmunky]

3 Chevrons = Token Increase in performance in M2TW, so its more for show than anything else anymore.

[Cybvep]

Actually, the unit experience is something that is much more balanced and realistic in MTW2 than in RTW. And no more overpowered slingers.

[bovi]

I'd imagine the experience means higher morale, not just for show.

[Copperknickers]

The unit experience is something that is much more balanced and realistic in MTW2 than in RTW. And no more overpowered slingers.

I was under the impression that slingers were the most effective ranged weapon until the crossbow for what they were used for.

[Cybvep]

It's not the point. With current experience system from RTW, slingers will be effective on level 0 and vastly overpowered on level 9, as they gain +1 to attack, defense and morale for every chevron. In MTW2, they gain +1 attack and defence every THREE chevrons (I'm not sure about morale, but it's probably +1 for every chevron). The necessary calculations are very simple:

RTW system

Basic Attack: 2
Lethality: 1 (can't be modded in case of ranged weapon)
AP

Level 0: 2 + 0 = 2
Level 9 = 2+9 = 11

It's a BIG difference.

MTW2 system

Basic Attack: 2
Lethality: 1 (doesn't work in MTW2)
AP

Level 0: 2 + 0 = 2
Level 9 = 2 + 3 = 5

Not so much, but still significant.