Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 75

Thread: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

  1. #1
    Guest Dayve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,659

    Default When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Personally i think the Roman empire began dying when the old gods were swept aside and Christianity became the official religion, and then finally died in 476AD when the last emperor was deposed by Odocer(sp).

    I don't think the eastern Roman empire can still be considered a continuation of Rome simply because the western empire had dissolved and the city of Rome was ruled by barbarians with no senate and no powers in the hands of the old Romans. After that the eastern empire was just an empire that had broken off from the old Roman empire.

    Also the Holy Roman Empire is a joke, everybody knows the old saying... Neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. Other peoples tried to be the new Rome but without the city and the actual Roman people that's just not possible.

    What's everybody elses opinion on it? Do you think the Roman empire died when the Byzantine empire died, etc. etc? If so, why?

  2. #2
    Savaran Commander Member Hound of Ulster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Somewhere between Persepolis and Tara
    Posts
    326

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    I vote for the deposition of Romulus Augustalus (476), but an arguement can be made for the 'fall' being the splitting of the Empire by Constantine in 330s.
    'Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War' Plato

    'Ar nDuctas' O'Dougherty clan motto

    'In Peace, sons bury thier fathers; In War, fathers bury thier sons' Thucydides

    'Forth Eorlingas!' motto of the Riders of Rohan

    'dammit, In for a Penny, In for a Pound!' the Duke of Wellington

  3. #3
    Guest Dayve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,659

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    True, but at least when the empire was split it was agreed upon by all parties (all parties with power, anyhow) and the west was still united and ruled from Rome.

  4. #4
    Member Member Sakkura's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    527

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    1453. The western Roman Empire immediately prior to 476 AD was completely different from Republican Rome, just like even the late Byzantines; so it's hard to say either of these were more "real". The Holy Roman Empire was not in political continuity with the Roman Empire, so that doesn't count for me.

    But 476 is still a very reasonable alternative, especially if you focus on Rome itself as a defining character of the Roman Empire.
    Veni
    Vidi
    Velcro

  5. #5
    Member Member Intranetusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    1,245

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    I would say 476, IMO you can't call yourself the Roman empire if you lose the city of Rome. And I'm not going to say anymore because I had a heated debate with one of the members on this exact topic a few months ago.
    "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind...but there is one thing that science cannot accept - and that is a personal God who meddles in the affairs of his creation."
    -Albert Einstein




  6. #6
    Member Member Maksimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Belgrade, Serbia
    Posts
    1,149

    Smile Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    I would not focus on Rome itself.. It was sacked by Alaric I as early as 410 I think. And the Rome wasn't the capital of anythink after Constantine the Great.. I remember that one Emperor transferred the capital of the Western Roman Empire from Milan to Ravenna in early 400 AD - before Rome was sacked for the first time and It was scked two times again in the next until 476... But yes.. Rome is Rome.. It is iteresting that during the Caesars in some period before Constantine moved the capital in the Tharakia... That Rome had nearly 2500000 people.. and after 3 big sacks and miggrations to the East Empire.. It's population fell to 5000-15000 during the Papal State and even then then the Inckusition burned 2000 a year ... Untill 20 years ago and betwean all the period before 200 AD - Rome never had even near 100 000 of population.. While Constantinopolis had sbout 200 000 - 500 000 in the 'dark ages'

    So I would say that the end of A Roman Empire in 'Cosmopolitan' meanings.. And in this case in the words and reality of that period - was.. By my opinion... Either 1051 - when East Roman Empire started to give the crown's to Land-owners and Angel familly (after wich Byzantine Empire as called in Rome started to colaps)...

    But, no It was 1204! When inter fights of famillies for Roman Throne in Constantinopolis became so strong that one pretendent called upon Crusaiders (after a siege of Zadar) to take the city and make his captured father Emperor again.. 1204 was the real end of all Latin in Roman world..

    Because 60 years later when Kingdom of Nicaea reclaimed the Roman Empire with Constantinopolis - it was too late ... well I won't go into details

    (the end of Roman Empire was at the battle in 1071 when Emperor, Romanos IV, is defeated by the Seljuk Turks at the Battle of Manzikert, losing his position in most of Asia Minor. In the same year, the last Roman outpost in Italy (Bari) is conquered by the Normans... )
    Last edited by Maksimus; 12-02-2007 at 02:24.
    “Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world.”

  7. #7
    Member Member Intranetusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    1,245

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Here is a link to the spam war between me and a couple of other people [ I feel so unloved :-( ] on if the Byzantines is considered a continuation of the original Roman civilization or not...

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...t=89517&page=2
    "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind...but there is one thing that science cannot accept - and that is a personal God who meddles in the affairs of his creation."
    -Albert Einstein




  8. #8
    Member Member Maksimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Belgrade, Serbia
    Posts
    1,149

    Wink Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Intranetusa
    Here is a link to the spam war between me and a couple of other people [ I feel so unloved :-( ] on if the Byzantines is considered a continuation of the original Roman civilization or not...

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...t=89517&page=2
    Relax.. I know what you mean.. I study geostrategy and economy of EU and Euroasia.. so.. I know that EVERYONE wants to 'take' Roman legacy as their own - it's a political interest.. Did you know that the one of the last princesses of East Roman Empire - fled to Russia that was under Mongols - that meant that after the downfall of Constantinople in 1453, Moscow claimed succession to the legacy of the Eastern Roman Empire...

    That was called the III Rome - during the reign of Ivan III, Grand Duke of Moscow who had married Sophia Paleologue that was alive. Sophia was a niece of Constantine XI (and Constantine XI was a son of a Serbian Noblewoman that was daughter of one very strong Serbian nobelman ''Dragaš''..), the last Eastern Roman Emperor and Ivan could claim to be the heir of the fallen Eastern Roman Empire... That is just one example!..

    But you see Russia was trying along with Greece and Ortodox nations to reclaim Constantinopolis for centuries after 1453 - But then the other successors to the Roman Legacy come in !
    So France and Britain and Turks together fight the Crimean War (1853–1856) against the other successors - the Russians.. And then there is another attempt to retake the Istanbul in 1918 with bad planed action From Winston C. (along with France forces) to take Constantinolopis!
    And after Greeks retake Constantinopolis in Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) they are betrayed by the West just because they could reclaim the 'Megali Idea' (the reclaim of The Roman Empire)... so

    It all goes around and around.. and around (and today Greece has 25% of their public expenses in military along with US and Israel that is top of the world..)

    Just relax!
    Last edited by Maksimus; 12-02-2007 at 02:46.
    “Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world.”

  9. #9

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    I'd have to say the sack by Alaric in 410, I think after the capital was moved from Rome the western empire was so clearly diseased that it became clear that things were falling apart
    Drink Tea

    Currently Reading: Nikolai Gogol's dead souls

  10. #10
    Jesus Member lobf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Nazareth
    Posts
    527

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Susan Wise Baur, in her History of the Ancient World puts the fall of Rome at the point when Constantine converted. I think this is a valid stopping point. The empire quickly declined after that point and it makes a convinient end point for antiquity and beginning point for the middle ages. The Byzantine emprire was Roman by inheritance but not in culture or custom, as others have pointed out.

  11. #11
    EB TRIBVNVS PLEBIS Member MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    The State of Jefferson, USA
    Posts
    5,730

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    I would say the Roman Empire died with the death of Commodus. Marcus Aurelius was the last true Emperor and Commodus killed the Empire. It just never recovered after him.


  12. #12
    Member Member Leviathan DarklyCute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    330

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    wiki says 27 BC – 476 CE
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire
    and it was Byzantine Empire that existed 330 – 1453
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire






  13. #13

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    The end of Rome's political legacy? 1918.

  14. #14
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Where on this beige, brown, and olive-drab everything will stick, sting, bite, and/or eat you; most rickety-tick.
    Posts
    6,105

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Thats simple, it ended with Augustus. It just took everyone 400 plus years to figure it out.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  15. #15
    Guest Dayve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,659

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    Thats simple, it ended with Augustus. It just took everyone 400 plus years to figure it out.
    Oh come on, it wasn't ALL downhill after Augustus... there were some pretty impressive conquests and victories after.

  16. #16
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Where on this beige, brown, and olive-drab everything will stick, sting, bite, and/or eat you; most rickety-tick.
    Posts
    6,105

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayve
    Oh come on, it wasn't ALL downhill after Augustus... there were some pretty impressive conquests and victories after.
    But, you do get my point, right?

    Everyone assumes the decline and fall was an 'inside job.' However, I think there may have been forces at work here, far greater than just the Romans themselves.
    Last edited by cmacq; 12-02-2007 at 06:52.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  17. #17
    People's Padishah Emperor Member Emperor Burakuku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Salusa Secundus
    Posts
    437

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus
    I would say the Roman Empire died with the death of Commodus. Marcus Aurelius was the last true Emperor and Commodus killed the Empire. It just never recovered after him.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by cmdq
    Thats simple, it ended with Augustus. It just took everyone 400 plus years to figure it out..
    1. IMO it began with Octavian, the downfall I mean. Of course, there are arguments for the measures he took at that time. But still he did one big mistake, he deprived the Senate of his powers. Right?
    2. After the period of "the five good emperors" wich ends with Marcus Aurelius, Rome becomes weaker and weaker, always in retreat. Instead of continuing choosing who he though that was better for the imperial seat, like his predecessors, Aurelius choses Commodus. Wrong.
    3. Another argument for the downfall of any empire is centralization. Others had the same fate - Ottomans for example, China, etc. A centralized system is dependent of its center, wich is the capital and the ruler. And some rulers aren't always that capable. Well it's more complex than this.
    4. Constatine's conversion to Christianity is the tombstone in my opinion. The christian doctrine simply doesn't suffice for Rome. "Thou Shalt Not Kill" - come on.
    5. Another important aspect of the downfall of Rome IMHO, is this: richness. It gives you bad traits. What I mean is that in every empire, after it's apogee, there comes a period when people have pretty much everything. And like in a rich family, in a rich empire, gifted people are rare. As they appear mostly in harsh conditions or "when they are needed".

    There are of course many other aspects. Wich we are aware of more or less. Barbarians, the length of it's borders, corruption, etc.

    So, to conclude, I would say: Rome's downfall began with Octavian, continues with Marcus Aurelius decision of chousing Commodus as his heir, and ends with Constatine's conversion to christianity.
    "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog"

  18. #18
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Where on this beige, brown, and olive-drab everything will stick, sting, bite, and/or eat you; most rickety-tick.
    Posts
    6,105

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Furthering my efforts to trivalize the complex and complicate the mundane. So, the question would be; did they, the Romans, actually call their state 'Empire,' or is that term a more recent construct? The logic here is of course; 'I know they called it empire cause I've seen and heard them do that in the movies,' and Gladiator pops to mind? Yet, based on the modern usage, the Roman state became an Empire only after their first conquest of a non-Latin community within Italy itself. If one were to dispute this point we can move the bar up a little, but the conclusion will basically remain the same.

    If one applies the term to signify a significant change in the structure of the state's government, then that's another issue. I think the modern use of the term 'Empire' was designed to sell more books and in this case it's frankly, irrelevant. As Emperor Burakuku so apply observed, Octavian, (aka Augustus) deprived the Senate of nearly all its authority. What followed was some sort of mafioso styled monarchy that managed to survive like a Dawn of the Dead zombie, feeding off the remains of other failed states. Thus, if one wishes to call this a continuation of empire, so be it, and then technically it never ends?

    Still, I think there was one factor, that was entirely out of the control of the Romans, that initiated sometime in the reign of Augustus, that changed everything. However, this is just a theory. Nonetheless, I like Burakuku's answer, he's got all the bases covered.
    Last edited by cmacq; 12-02-2007 at 09:03.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  19. #19
    People's Padishah Emperor Member Emperor Burakuku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Salusa Secundus
    Posts
    437

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    Nonetheless, I like Burakuku's answer, he's got all the bases covered.
    Far from it dude, but thanks for being polite. Who the heck knows what contribuited more to the fall of Rome? It's a matter so complex for us, simple mortals. I just consider as yourself and Marcus (sorry don't remember the whole nick, Antonius I think), that it was somewhere between Augustus and Constantine... can't say exactly where. And that Marcus Aurelius' decision took all hope away.
    "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog"

  20. #20
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Where on this beige, brown, and olive-drab everything will stick, sting, bite, and/or eat you; most rickety-tick.
    Posts
    6,105

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    OK, I think the weather changed.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  21. #21
    memristor fan Member keravnos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,814

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    My personal opinion is that "Roma" as an empire which started by Augustus, ended at 1453, or 1204. There has never been a "western/eastern empire". It was the same empire, just that it took its best and brightest and send them to the part that was more likely to survive "a hostile takeover".

    It did. Konstantinos (Constantinus) didn't only transfer the capital in "Nova Roma" he also transported, senators, bureaucrats, artists, EVERYTHING that was good in "old rome".

    The residents of the eastern part of the empire, never once considered themselves anything but Roman. Even when the western part fell, the eastern still thrived. Maybe it could survive the Turks if the "western barbarians" (Hey this is EB) that KO'ed the western part didn't return to finish the job. Konstantinoupolis was the heart and soul of the empire. Twice the empire was just one city (prior to 1204). First during the Arabian blitzkrieg of the 700's. Second during the reign of Alexios Komnenos with Normans occupying the balkans and Turks reaching the Bosporos.

    The empire held because it had possibly the best fortified base available. Behind Konstantinoupolis walls it repaired, regrouped healed its wounds, used the riches of the cities to buy the best mercs available and fought back. Under emperors like the Komnenoi who weren't afraid to fight it excelled. Weak emperors, however after them and the "byzantine" bickering of who would become an emperor, led to the "Fall" of 1204.

    Upon losing Konstatninoupolis, the Empire splintered. 3 parts fighting eachother and the invading latins and the Turks. Even when one of them emerged as the succesor of the empire, the city was just a hulk. Efforts to regroup failed as the ressurging Turks under Osman and his descendants created an empire out of parts of former ERE, by a blitzkrieg of their own.

    The third time that the empire was just a city (among enemy held lands)or "polis" as we Greeks called it, would be the last.

    I consider Russia as the upholder of the tradition of Roma, but in a very distant way. It wasn't the same people anymore, there wasn't a hippodrome, a sense of continuity. However, many greeks did flee to Moscow, ERE emperor's last niece did marry the Czar, and if there is any one state that deserved to be called successor to "Byzantium" or the Empire of the Romanoi as they called themselves, it would be Russia. In that sense, and only that, it can be argued that the "Romanov" were the last descendants of the "Romanoi", who started being an empire in Roma after Actium.
    Last edited by keravnos; 12-02-2007 at 10:41.


    You like EB? Buy CA games.

  22. #22
    People's Padishah Emperor Member Emperor Burakuku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Salusa Secundus
    Posts
    437

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    No you were right, that I was right. Sorry I wanted to be polite but I managed not to be. Sorry
    "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog"

  23. #23
    Certified Chav killer Member Long lost Caesar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    391

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Rome was a funny old thing. I think that it did survive until the fall of the Eastern Empire, because even though the West was overrun by barbarians, even though the Eternal City was sacked time and time again, the Easterners continued to march for the 'senate and people of Rome' for another 1000 years. And considering the ties between Greece and Rome (military designs, architecture, etc) I think it's fair to say that the Greeks could call themselves Romans.
    That point besides, they were conquered by Rome and that's that really. Of course you can point to other factors such as change in bloodline and administration, but if a country changes how it's run its not considered "destroyed" or anything.
    Gentlemen! i wash my hands of this weirdness
    Brothers in Arms- A Legionaries AAR
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...86#post1853386

  24. #24
    People's Padishah Emperor Member Emperor Burakuku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Salusa Secundus
    Posts
    437

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Long lost Caesar
    Rome was a funny old thing. I think that it did survive until the fall of the Eastern Empire, because even though the West was overrun by barbarians, even though the Eternal City was sacked time and time again, the Easterners continued to march for the 'senate and people of Rome' for another 1000 years. And considering the ties between Greece and Rome (military designs, architecture, etc) I think it's fair to say that the Greeks could call themselves Romans.
    That point besides, they were conquered by Rome and that's that really. Of course you can point to other factors such as change in bloodline and administration, but if a country changes how it's run its not considered "destroyed" or anything.
    Gentlemen! i wash my hands of this weirdness
    And I would have to agree. Byzantines were Romans. Is just that I think that Roma (not the city, the whole thing) was doomed long before the split of the empire. The system itself I mean. And I explaine why I think that.
    "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog"

  25. #25
    A Member Member Conradus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Going to the land where men walk without footprints.
    Posts
    949

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    Thats simple, it ended with Augustus. It just took everyone 400 plus years to figure it out.
    Isn't that a bit unfair? Ultimately you could argue that every empire fell with its creator, because they're all doomed to fall anyway.

  26. #26
    Member Member mrtwisties's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    235

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradus
    Isn't that a bit unfair? Ultimately you could argue that every empire fell with its creator, because they're all doomed to fall anyway.
    Well, that's not true, just look at the British... the Briti... well, I'll be. When did THAT happen?

  27. #27
    People's Padishah Emperor Member Emperor Burakuku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Salusa Secundus
    Posts
    437

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Very good idea for a thread btw Dayve. Congrats
    Last edited by Emperor Burakuku; 12-02-2007 at 11:25.
    "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog"

  28. #28
    Asia ton Barbaron mapper Member Pharnakes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Kingdom of Fife
    Posts
    1,773

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by mrtwisties
    Well, that's not true, just look at the British... the Briti... well, I'll be. When did THAT happen?
    Well, 1946/47, I suppose. Damn nazis, if it wasn't from them we'd still be rulling the world.
    Asia ton Barbaron The new eastern mod for eb!

    Laziest member of the team My red balloons, as red as the blood of he who mentioned Galatians.
    Roma Victor!

    Yous ee gishes?

  29. #29
    Member Member mrtwisties's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    235

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    In all seriousness, though, I think the British Empire can be usefully compared to the Roman one. In both cases, the civilisation continued (after a fashion) long after the political unit crumbled.

  30. #30
    Asia ton Barbaron mapper Member Pharnakes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Kingdom of Fife
    Posts
    1,773

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    True, and they're both red.
    Asia ton Barbaron The new eastern mod for eb!

    Laziest member of the team My red balloons, as red as the blood of he who mentioned Galatians.
    Roma Victor!

    Yous ee gishes?

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO