Results 1 to 30 of 75

Thread: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Guest Dayve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,659

    Default When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Personally i think the Roman empire began dying when the old gods were swept aside and Christianity became the official religion, and then finally died in 476AD when the last emperor was deposed by Odocer(sp).

    I don't think the eastern Roman empire can still be considered a continuation of Rome simply because the western empire had dissolved and the city of Rome was ruled by barbarians with no senate and no powers in the hands of the old Romans. After that the eastern empire was just an empire that had broken off from the old Roman empire.

    Also the Holy Roman Empire is a joke, everybody knows the old saying... Neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. Other peoples tried to be the new Rome but without the city and the actual Roman people that's just not possible.

    What's everybody elses opinion on it? Do you think the Roman empire died when the Byzantine empire died, etc. etc? If so, why?

  2. #2
    Savaran Commander Member Hound of Ulster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Somewhere between Persepolis and Tara
    Posts
    326

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    I vote for the deposition of Romulus Augustalus (476), but an arguement can be made for the 'fall' being the splitting of the Empire by Constantine in 330s.
    'Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War' Plato

    'Ar nDuctas' O'Dougherty clan motto

    'In Peace, sons bury thier fathers; In War, fathers bury thier sons' Thucydides

    'Forth Eorlingas!' motto of the Riders of Rohan

    'dammit, In for a Penny, In for a Pound!' the Duke of Wellington

  3. #3
    Guest Dayve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,659

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    True, but at least when the empire was split it was agreed upon by all parties (all parties with power, anyhow) and the west was still united and ruled from Rome.

  4. #4

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    1453. The western Roman Empire immediately prior to 476 AD was completely different from Republican Rome, just like even the late Byzantines; so it's hard to say either of these were more "real". The Holy Roman Empire was not in political continuity with the Roman Empire, so that doesn't count for me.

    But 476 is still a very reasonable alternative, especially if you focus on Rome itself as a defining character of the Roman Empire.
    Veni
    Vidi
    Velcro

  5. #5
    Member Member Intranetusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    1,247

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    I would say 476, IMO you can't call yourself the Roman empire if you lose the city of Rome. And I'm not going to say anymore because I had a heated debate with one of the members on this exact topic a few months ago.
    "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind...but there is one thing that science cannot accept - and that is a personal God who meddles in the affairs of his creation."
    -Albert Einstein




  6. #6
    Member Member Maksimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Belgrade, Serbia
    Posts
    1,187

    Smile Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    I would not focus on Rome itself.. It was sacked by Alaric I as early as 410 I think. And the Rome wasn't the capital of anythink after Constantine the Great.. I remember that one Emperor transferred the capital of the Western Roman Empire from Milan to Ravenna in early 400 AD - before Rome was sacked for the first time and It was scked two times again in the next until 476... But yes.. Rome is Rome.. It is iteresting that during the Caesars in some period before Constantine moved the capital in the Tharakia... That Rome had nearly 2500000 people.. and after 3 big sacks and miggrations to the East Empire.. It's population fell to 5000-15000 during the Papal State and even then then the Inckusition burned 2000 a year ... Untill 20 years ago and betwean all the period before 200 AD - Rome never had even near 100 000 of population.. While Constantinopolis had sbout 200 000 - 500 000 in the 'dark ages'

    So I would say that the end of A Roman Empire in 'Cosmopolitan' meanings.. And in this case in the words and reality of that period - was.. By my opinion... Either 1051 - when East Roman Empire started to give the crown's to Land-owners and Angel familly (after wich Byzantine Empire as called in Rome started to colaps)...

    But, no It was 1204! When inter fights of famillies for Roman Throne in Constantinopolis became so strong that one pretendent called upon Crusaiders (after a siege of Zadar) to take the city and make his captured father Emperor again.. 1204 was the real end of all Latin in Roman world..

    Because 60 years later when Kingdom of Nicaea reclaimed the Roman Empire with Constantinopolis - it was too late ... well I won't go into details

    (the end of Roman Empire was at the battle in 1071 when Emperor, Romanos IV, is defeated by the Seljuk Turks at the Battle of Manzikert, losing his position in most of Asia Minor. In the same year, the last Roman outpost in Italy (Bari) is conquered by the Normans... )
    Last edited by Maksimus; 12-02-2007 at 03:24.
    “Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world.”

  7. #7
    Member Member Intranetusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    1,247

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Here is a link to the spam war between me and a couple of other people [ I feel so unloved :-( ] on if the Byzantines is considered a continuation of the original Roman civilization or not...

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=89517&page=2
    "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind...but there is one thing that science cannot accept - and that is a personal God who meddles in the affairs of his creation."
    -Albert Einstein




  8. #8
    Civis Romanus Member Senatus Populusque Romanus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    I think it ended with Caesar, whih means when the republic fell.

    In my opinion, Rome was built to be republic, not an empire. And Caesar wanted to change that too rapidly.
    Dignitas, maiestas, auctoritas, libertas, exercitus, imperium, iudicia, honores, consules, voluntas populi Romani
    Dignity, majesty, authority, freedom, the army, rule, judgements, offices, consuls and will of the Roman People


    The Age of Romans : A Romani VIDEO AAR Series

    The EB Documentary Theater

  9. #9
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Where on this beige, brown, and olive-drab everything will stick, sting, bite, and/or eat you; most rickety-tick.
    Posts
    6,160

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Commilitone
    I think it ended with Caesar, whih means when the republic fell.

    In my opinion, Rome was built to be republic, not an empire. And Caesar wanted to change that too rapidly.

    Which Caesar?

    There's a world of Caesars? Strange, a story about an all powerful empire made long, long ago, in a place far, far away, conceived for empire builders far more recent and near at hand? Is it the Imperium Romanum (ancient Latin term for Roman legal authority) or the Roman Empire (a modern abstract construct)?

    This is just an outline, so bare with me, please. The Mos Maiorum was the unwritten Roman constitution or the design of Roman legal authority. While flexible the one base principle of the Mos Maiorum was simply 'Cum potestas in populo auctoritas in senatu sit;' or 'with power in the people, authority rests in the Senate.' This was embodied in three governmental branches; the senate, the legislative (assemblies and consols), and the executive (magistrates). However, all authority stemmed from the senate with its Senatus Consultum checks on the other branches.

    Augustus claimed the Auctoritas as Princeps (or Princeps Senatus/Princeps Civitatis; first senator/first citizen or president). I belive the Princeps was an absorption of the Princeps Senatus office. As a legal term, Auctoritas applied to the Senate's authority, or Auctoritas Patrum (authority of elders). This form of legal authority was considered superior to that of Potestas or Imperium powers.

    By the time of his death Augustus had assumed all the powers of the Auctorictas Principis (supreme authority), the Imperium, and the Potestas. This included all military, judiciary and administrative legal powers of the Roman state. The senate may have retained the offices of Consul Praetor Urbanus, Consul, and Proconsul, however these functioned not as instruments of legal Roman authority. Rather, they served as lieutenants of the Princeps. This was a direct assault on the Mos Maiorum.

    So my point is...

    the acts of Augustus didn't just end the Republic, it ended the legal authority of the Roman state as inferred by their constitution. I propose that what followed was no more than a felonious apparition that was later glorified by emerging nation states to somehow justify their own somewhat dubious machinations.

    I know its a Stretch, but what the hell, in for a dime? Hell, sometimes I'm not even sure if I believe what I'm saying...

    ...until I'm done talking?
    Last edited by cmacq; 12-03-2007 at 17:57.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  10. #10

    Default Re: When did the Roman empire cease to be? In YOUR opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Commilitone
    I think it ended with Caesar, whih means when the republic fell.

    In my opinion, Rome was built to be republic, not an empire. And Caesar wanted to change that too rapidly.
    But it was pretty obvious that Rome as a republic didn't work either. Either the lazy, corrupt senators mishandled various wars, or it all devolved into civil wars. Concentration of power was the only way to achieve stability, but with the expanding borders of the empire, stability became a problem again despite that improvement. It was just too easy for general X waay over in the other end of the empire to achieve some victories defending the empire, then use his loyal legions to march on Rome to get a bigger slice of the power while the Caesar was far away defending the empire on some other border.

    The basic problem was never really solved, but just circumvented by subdividing the empire. But the divisions of the empire (tetrarchy and whatnot) just meant that the empire evolved toward splitting into autonomous parts, eventually becoming two separate states.
    Veni
    Vidi
    Velcro

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO