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Thread: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

  1. #31
    Member Member Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Johan217 View Post
    Maybe also revisit the mercenary pool. Landsknecht Pikemen seem to be available from 1170 onwards, which is way too early (you may easily add 200 years to that). Same for mercenary arquebusiers, that are available right after the gunpowder event.
    Got to agree! Some merc units are a tad early coming.

    Also rep seems to easy to gain. Got to Immaculate by turn 70 or so and I had never released prisoners (only ransom).

  2. #32
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Must have missed the merc part when I ported the game from my initial "mod-for-self-use", will fix that, with the exception of crusaders which I'll leave till 1530 (as otherwise going on crusade after 1300 gives you no real crusader units)

    Rep gain: You were only occupying and not at war with anyone, eh?
    Last edited by FactionHeir; 07-31-2008 at 11:02.
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  3. #33
    Member Member Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Yes, I only ever occupied settlements. Playing as English I was at war with France, Sicilly, also a short time with Milan & Spain. Allied to Papal states, Scotland & Byz
    Last edited by Nebuchadnezzar; 08-01-2008 at 06:33.

  4. #34
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Occupying gives several points towards a good reputation, but sacking and exterminating give a big hit. Things add up, and I felt that this way diplomacy and standing would be more important
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  5. #35
    Member Member gNostic Heretic's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Will the 1tpy script adjust building and unit buid times and costs? Ideally what I'd like is a 0.5tpy mod where build times and costs are increased fourfold. This would stop the dual nightmares of semi-immortal royals or being in the situation of having built everything by the close of the 12th C. and floating on a sea of unbelievable wealth.

    Any help gratefully acknowledged.

    Er... and sorry, PM'd you by accident because I'm a noooooooooooob-y

  6. #36
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    No, the 1tpy script change was made per request to change only timescale and events but leave the rest intact.

    I'm fairly busy these days though so its unlikely I'll provide such a drastic script change, but I can walk you through it.

    You want to change export_descr_unit's stat_cost for each unit from 0, X to 0, X*4.
    In export_descr_buildings you want to change all building durations (build_time) *4
    Also, in the same file, change any notion of cost *4 as well.

    In descr_strat then, change timescale from 2.00 to 0.5.

    That should do it.
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  7. #37
    Member Member St.Jimmy's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Is there any chance of you making a version for kingdoms? I would like to play as Ireland or Norway on the Grand Campaign. I could just download another mod like Stainless Steel but all other mods change too much and I like to keep everything the same except this game needs your changes to keep it fun to play.

    I know this is a long shot as you already said your too busy but thought id ask.

    Iv not got round to using pikes yet. Are they fixed? (In your current version)

  8. #38
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Pikes are as fixed as they can be without removing their secondary weapons

    Regarding Kingdoms, I don't have it, so I can't make a Kingdoms version unless you happen to buy it for me It should be possible for you to port it over though I imagine.
    Last edited by FactionHeir; 08-11-2008 at 12:48.
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  9. #39
    Member Member gNostic Heretic's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Thanks, that's a great help! Even [I]more[I] hours can now be spent on TW!

    I've finally decided to give a mod a go. Vanilla Mod it is!
    F:Gulp\Mildly_terrified\Convinced_you_know_what_youre_doing_though.exe

    Hmmm... can cost and buld time adjustments be tied to events? That could make the Black Death a much more serious disaster management scenerio, for example.

  10. #40
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Sadly not possible unless you make it a completely different building.
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  11. #41
    Senior Member Senior Member Ibn-Khaldun's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Suggestion..
    Is it possible to bring the ancillaries for each province into this mod?
    I've seen this in Stainless Steel and in Deus Lu Vult.
    I really like that feature since it gives a lot of RP possibilities.
    Other than that it's a pretty good mod!

  12. #42
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Certainly possible, but I'm rather wary of the settlement ancillary system for several reasons:

    - You can only give, not remove settlement/region ancillaries via code, so if say the Count of Dijon still lives and hides in Baghdad with the Counts of all French settlements, then good luck getting those ancillaries when you take all those towns. If you still give the ancillary, then you end up with a lot of Counts of Settlement X. If you don't, then you can't get it as long as those people are still alive somewhere.

    - What system should the ancillaries follow? Say you take Constantinople as the Turks. Do you want to be King of Byzantium or Amir of Istanbul? If you follow a standardized system applicable to all factions, then you are bound to run into inconsistencies and odd situations like the above. Every faction will call the reigning Lord of a region differently. A HRE leader might be a Margrave or Elector, an English one a Count or Duke, a Muslim one an Amir, a Mongol one a Khan etc. Unless you call a settlement title differently for each faction or group of factions, which is a huge amount of work (i.e. faction number times region number + code to crosscheck), would it really enhance anything?


    From my perspective, its possible to address the first point by using traits rather than ancillaries, but this way they won't be transferable, which kind of defeats the purpose, but at least the person who takes the place also will be the only one with the title, and you can even force characters to stay within that region's borders to hold on to the title. It would be a lot of coding work though, and less flexible than the ancillary system in some ways, more flexible in other ways.

    But of course I would invite you to discuss this here with me further to reach a conclusion that is amicable to everyone.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member Senior Member Ibn-Khaldun's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    IIRC then the title is connected to the settlement (Amir of Alexandria or Count of Flanders..)
    I have always role-played it like the locals have granted me the title..
    It would be weird if the Muslim people from Cairo would give my character the title of Count or Duke just because I'm from England..

  14. #44
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    True, though would an Frenchman accept, that he would be addressed at the French court as "Amir of Cairo" for instance?
    I see your point with the people - but back then, it was really the rulers that decided the title, especially for crusade targets (Count of Tripoli, King of Jerusalem vs their Muslim counterparts, who happen to start there).

    Any comment on the other issue btw?
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  15. #45
    Senior Member Senior Member Ibn-Khaldun's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    I forgot that the Jerusalem, Tripoli and Antioch (Perhaps some other settlements in Levant) have European and not Muslim titles. And it would be kind of funny to have a Muslim called 'the King of Jerusalem' at the beginning of the game and before any Crusaders have taken the city

    The other issue.. I don't know much about scripting but perhaps it is possible to create a script that takes away the ancillary if the character have been away from the settlement for a certain amount of time? Let's say 10 turns or so?

  16. #46
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    That's the thing: you can only give, not remove ancillaries via code. You can remove traits, but you cannot transfer traits manually in game, so both have some major drawbacks, though a trait rather than ancillary system would probably be preferrable
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  17. #47

    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Hi

    I noticed you're using

    Code:
        WhenToTest AgentCreated
        Condition IsAdmiral
    in at least your ancillary file (havent gotten to traits yet), and in my games i have never seen these triggers actually fire. I'm using a vanilla M2TW patched to 1.2 then to 1.3 from the Kingdoms DVD but without actually having Kingdoms installed (so no kingdoms.exe whatsoever, i assume it's the same 1.3 patch that you can download anywhere). The actual working trigger for me is

    Code:
    Trigger naval_gunner_vnv_trigger
        WhenToTest NewAdmiralCreated
        Condition SettlementBuildingExists >= naval_academy
    
        AcquireAncillary naval_gunner chance  33
    i'm curious whether your triggers stop working because of the 1.2 -> 1.3 and also whether my trigger works in 1.2 (it should, but i wouldn't reinstall to test it :P)

  18. #48
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Hmmm I don't think I did much in terms of testing naval as I personally don't use it much, so the code I got should be a remnant of CA's original code. However, checking the docudemon, it seems it should be NewAdmiralCreated.

    Thanks for the tip, I'll have it fixed for the next release!
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  19. #49

    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Well if you're not much into naval things here's a few other suggestions i have

    Changing
    Code:
    stat_pri         28, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, none, 25, 1
    to

    Code:
    stat_pri         28, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, naval_gunpowder, slashing, none, 25, 1
    for the gunpowder ships will actually have these ship's weaponry displayed as 'Naval Cannon' and upgraded at the corresponding buildings (weapon_naval_gunpowder capability in the EDB). I haven't tested ship performance like this though, but i don't think it should be affected. I'll test it later just in case. Gunpowder ships are: Baghlah, Carrack, Galleass, Grande Carrack, Gun Holk, Lanternas, and depending on your preference the Fireship. The weapon_naval_gunpowder capability in the EDB does nothing otherwise (and i noticed you still have it in there too :P).

    Also since no unit other than ships uses melee_simple as a tech, changing

    Code:
    {SMT_CAPABILITY_WEAPON_MELEE_SIMPLE}Capable of upgrading crude weapons
    to

    Code:
    {SMT_CAPABILITY_WEAPON_MELEE_SIMPLE}Capable of upgrading basic naval weaponry
    in shared.txt.strings.bin allows you to use wepon_melee_simple in the EDB as a means of upgrading the attack of basic ships. Obviously you can use it without changing the string file anyway it'll just look bad and probably noone will know what it's for.

  20. #50

    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Hi FactionHeir
    Your Mod is incredible, but I got to tell you that the cavalry is too overpowered.
    You did a good job increasing the efectiviness of the spearmen, but after making some tests,
    you can realise that the cavalry is too strong.
    1 group of the hobillar cavalry( one of the weackest) can defeat the heavy two handed infantry of the Germans, with just 4 charges.
    1 Lancer(1000$ aprox) can defeat 4 english dismounted knights(670$ each group)

    I belive that would be nice if you duplicate the price of all the cavalry, and decrease a little theyr status.

    Thanks again for the Mod
    See ya.

  21. #51
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Thanks for the feedback.

    I realize cavalry is still fairly powerful, but less so than in unmodded M2TW so that your lighter cavalry won't tear through heavy infantry and spears in a single charge but requires multiple. Also, braced enemies are harder to punch through.

    At a point during balancing, hobilars couldn't kill more than 2 heavy infantry per charge with their whole group which wasn't overly desirable since mount impact should kill a few more. So they are still the weakest chargers (besides border horses and scouts).

    The cavalry price was already raised manifold. This is not reflected in their buying price but in their upkeep instead. So you can buy cavalry at a good/high price but to keep them around is another matter entirely

    Spears are best when charging cavalry, bracing against them or fighting them in melee usually. If they are charged while walking, they will take heavy losses.

    The heaviest cavalry (armor plated) generally will tear through spears too. For those, you want to be using pikes and halberds
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    Want to play M2TW as a Vanilla experience minus many annoying bugs? Get VanillaMod Visit the forum Readme
    Need improved and faster 2H animations? Download this! (included in VanillaMod 0.93)

  22. #52

    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    I stopped to play the game long time ago because of the bugs. Now reading about the vanilla mod I am tempted to start playng again - but I should like to ask some questions before (I read the changelog and didn't find anything about this):
    1. Is the shield bug fixed? And if it is fixed is it fixed as it should be or it is left as one of the first fixes - just by adding some more armor instead of the shields? Actually this is my main concern after H weapons bug.
    2. Is the wrong type of defence towers bug fixed? I mean ballista towers shooting cannons before gunpowder age and when upgraded cannon towers shooting as ballistas depending on the size of the town?
    3. Is the design of the fortress bug changed so the enemy cannot anymore just walk through the walls into the inner fortifications (not at all fortress designs)?
    4. Is the expolit fixed when you can kill any inquisitor just by circling him with troops and them squashing him with another troop?
    5. Is the missile defenders shooting in a plain air instead at the enemies bug fixed?
    6. Is the polearm units bug fixed when the polearm units were changing to the secondary weapon when charged by the cavalry and thus being easily slaughtered? The yearly fixes just removed the secondary weapon but as a matter of fact a polearm weapon should be useless against any infantry with shields?

    I hope at least some of those bugs to be fixed if possible so please look at this as a suggestions

  23. #53
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    1. Patch 1.2 addresses this and VM has been rebalanced to accomodate for it. Units that should have shields have shields rather than extra armor.

    2. Yes, from 1.2.

    3. Yes from 1.2.

    4. Cannot be fixed.

    5. Cannot be fixed without making missiles not fire at all. Fixed for gunpowder though.

    6. Polearms: more effective due to anims. Pikes: less likely to change weapons due to formation fixes and will change back more often rather than stay in secondary.
    Want gunpowder, mongols, and timurids to appear when YOU do?
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    Want to play M2TW as a Vanilla experience minus many annoying bugs? Get VanillaMod Visit the forum Readme
    Need improved and faster 2H animations? Download this! (included in VanillaMod 0.93)

  24. #54

    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Ok, thank you! Nice work there with the vanilla mod.

    This was very weird game. Everyhting in the game which was bugged. It is quite an achievemnt to screw every single thing in the game

  25. #55

    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Would it be possible to educate the AI into not running a full calvary carge over a line of Longbowmen with stakes ion front of them? I've had a few tough battles,that is until the AI stupidly decided to destroy it's entire calvary force by doing this..

  26. #56
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Its never done that in any of my tests on field battles. The only time it does so is in sieges, and there you can't code it.
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  27. #57

    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    really a somewhat simple, but great mod.
    im really liking it.

    i think i come off as complaining too much, so i will turn my ideas or complaints into suggestions and questions.

    im playing with the english:

    1. i like what you did with the armoured sergeants and billmen as an offensive+defensive combo or alternative. however, right in the description, it says that the billhook is both a great offensive AND defensive weapon. while i see the need and want for a lower defensive number, as well as the fact that they are unarmored compared to heavier versions, i think it is realistically a little too low. it is currently at 3 i believe, with no armor.

    looking over at even plain town militia, i see a 7 defense rating.(some from shield obviously, but still. both have 3 def from skill)
    i highly doubt town militia can defend themselves more than twice as well as trained billmen.
    this got me to thinking. could it be that town militia would give billmen a hard time?
    i ran some custom battles.
    using the billmen i somewhat easily dispatched the town militia(8 or 9 out of 10 IIRC), but not w/o a fight. partly due to a repetitive weak AI manuever that withdraws about 15 yards, and then comes back for more. allowing the billmen to gtet extra charge value, and also often kills the TM's general.
    playing as the town militia however, i was able to win 5 of 10 battles, just standing still.
    not really going for high ground, or snow bonus' or anything. just with maybe a lone tree sitting somewhere near them.

    maybe its just me, but i dont think "heavy infantry" billmen should be having serious trouble with the lightest of lightly trained infantry militia.

    i would suggest adding atleast a single point or two to their base skill defense, at the very least.
    as well as possibly looking into weakening TM a small amount.

    im terrified to even think about matching them up against cavalry, which they are supposed to handle decently well.


    also these weak, unarmored, shieldless billmen have 48 men in a unit, cost 480 to train(190 more than TM), and have a 160 upkeep cost.
    in comparison to armored sergeants available at the same time:
    60 men in a unit. 560 training cost(cheaper to make, per individual), 155 upkeep cost.
    they have 8 attack and 16 defense.(7 from shield, 4 from skill, 5 from armor)
    they are armored, shielded, and have more men. why is it that they have a lower upkeep cost?

    also i have not yet had much experience with the tech tree's, but if other versions of the billmen are still around, you might want to look into their recruiting costs or skills.
    i saw a better version with a slightly lower cost.(heavy bill militia have 12 att and 10 def. reg billmen are 12/3.)
    if they are not still in the campaign game like i suspect, it really isnt a big deal at all. but
    are still in custom battles.(which is how i saw it)

    edit UPDATE: i ran some tests against cavalry that i talked about.
    i took some scottish "border horses"(7/10 with 3 charge) which are about the weakest cav i could find, and ran them right into the billmen.
    more than half of the billmen died within seconds of impact and they routed shortly thereafter
    i tried to play as billmen vs BH's. not pretty. by the time the "my general is killed" cutscene is over, i am down to ~20men wile they are near full force. after some favorable melee combat, they decide to pull away when we are both at around 8-10 men. they then charge again, killing off the rest of my unit.

    i have come to the conclusion that it is safe to say Billmen are almost completely useless and overpriced.
    nothing more than high attack flanking troops with limited speed, and cannot hold up against almost anything in battle.


    2. mercenaries. they have a lower upkeep than most units.
    to me, that isnt how it should be.
    merc's arent going to just stay with you cheaply forever based on a one time slightly higher fee.
    i would imagine you would have to pay them more than regular troops to stick around, not less.
    for example i saw a group of spearmen with a 180 upkeep. those are good solid spearmen, better than most early infantry.
    Last edited by cambovenzi; 02-23-2009 at 13:34.

  28. #58

    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    oh no
    i tried a strategy as billmen against those light cav.
    i spread my line down to a 2 man depth, in what turned out to be a very, very, very bad idea.
    when the cavalry charged me i lost all but 6 of my 48 men on impact.

  29. #59
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Against cavalry its normal to want a deep formation.

    Regarding billmen, there are 4 types, from worst to best: Bill militia, billmen, heavy bill militia and billmen.
    Their upkeep scales, but not significantly as you require higher level tech buildings to access better versions, and lower versions eventually phase out.
    Think of the lesser billmen as peasants with a bit of training and a weapon. Higher billmen as standard heavy infantry.

    Non-heavy bills have very little armor and tend to be effective in clsoe quarters against cavalry - they are not meant to take a charge, but rather charge or pin down the cavalry. If you want a unit to take a charge, use spears or pikes - these consequently are slightly less good at killing cavalry in close combat and will fall more easily than bill type units against heavy infantry due to lacking the armor piercing attribute.

    To make good use of light billmen, you want to be upgrading their armor using a blacksmith. Or use them mainly in flanking or urban battles. They will only be good against cavalry. Heavy billmen can deal with light-medium infantry and heavy cavalry. They still cannot take a charge, but will have better survivability and not fall to missiles as easily either.

    Regarding upkeep for mercenaries, these are significantly higher than those for similar units. I.e. mercenary spearmen cost 180 upkeep while armored sergeants cost only 155. They also cost a lot more to hire, so I would need a precise example from you where you found that not to be the case?
    Last edited by FactionHeir; 02-24-2009 at 17:20.
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  30. #60

    Default Re: VanillaMod Suggestions thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FactionHeir View Post
    Against cavalry its normal to want a deep formation.
    yeah that was just me messin around
    Regarding billmen, there are 4 types, from worst to best: Bill militia, billmen, heavy bill militia and billmen.
    Their upkeep scales, but not significantly as you require higher level tech buildings to access better versions, and lower versions eventually phase out.
    Think of the lesser billmen as peasants with a bit of training and a weapon. Higher billmen as standard heavy infantry.

    Non-heavy bills have very little armor and tend to be effective in close quarters against cavalry - they are not meant to take a charge, but rather charge or pin down the cavalry. If you want a unit to take a charge, use spears or pikes - these consequently are slightly less good at killing cavalry in close combat and will fall more easily than bill type units against heavy infantry due to lacking the armor piercing attribute.

    To make good use of light billmen, you want to be upgrading their armor using a blacksmith. Or use them mainly in flanking or urban battles. They will only be good against cavalry. Heavy billmen can deal with light-medium infantry and heavy cavalry. They still cannot take a charge, but will have better survivability and not fall to missiles as easily either.
    i think part of it is just my perception of the units.
    town militia are exactly that, some bum folks from down the street that have been called into semi-organised duty.
    i have a hard time believing they should be able to hold their own against somewhat more professional billmen.
    thats just how i look at it anyways.

    i will have to start thinking of the lower billmen as crappy militia troops who should solely be flankers and shock troops.
    they still are massively overpriced.(480 i think?)
    they are basically woodsmen with a cavalry bonus.

    part of this is my bad.
    i just realized they have the same statistics in regular m2tw than they do in your mod.
    i could have sworn they were armored/higher defense.
    i must have mistaken them for an armored variation.
    however, they have a 230 recruiting cost in m2tw.

    Regarding upkeep for mercenaries, these are significantly higher than those for similar units. I.e. mercenary spearmen cost 180 upkeep while armored sergeants cost only 155. They also cost a lot more to hire, so I would need a precise example from you where you found that not to be the case?
    ill have to get back to you on that.

    i noticed it was markedly lower upkeep than in the original version.
    its more of a personal preference i guess.
    in vmod, mercs are much more playable and usable long term. so much so IMO that it significantly weakens the use of homemade troops. (when you are able to recruit mercs immediately, and ones that might not even be available yet in your provinces[better units], for only a very slight increase in upkeep.)

    anyways, thanks for the reply.
    i knew part of what you were saying, but it will help re-inforce my knowledge of strategy.

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