Lords of Midnight: Total War

[Dol Guldur]

I'd agree - stone keeps, stone citadels, shields, heraldry and wings on the helms and the general look and feel of the LoM is early medieval imho.


Gah, I'm probably older than you all

[professorspatula]

Well I understand what you're saying but I still wouldn't place it later than say Norman invasion of England times. It's a lot easier to represent castles, other lords etc on a Spectrum if you use stone keeps, shields with heraldry etc. I found the Windows version of LOM with it's highly characterised Norse-esque depictions of the lords etc seemed fitting too. If you go for some chivalric style time, I think the world loses much of it's character. I see it as a darker, less advanced place, with a kind of Norse mythological times feel to it. More Rohan than Gondor if you like. Minor lords would more likely have simple wooden forts with a stone keep than some stereo-typical fantasy world castle. Large strongholds would have impressive stone fortifications throughout though.

I also prefer to think of a more loose alliance between the various lords. I don't believe they're all pals and such. Aside from Luxor, Xajorith and a few close friends, I imagine they other lords are forced to take sides more out of fear or past alliances, than anything else. This is how it is in Doomdark's Revenge, and for me that setting with it's barbarians etc feels very much more late dark-ages/early medieval setting. There's a kind of dark feel to the game world if you look for it, and I think that could be incorporated into the mod. Otherwise you'll just end up with another Lord of the Rings style mod, seeing as LoM is more or less that anyway.

[Horseman]

And I find it amazing that when you think how little was really written about the world how we all have are conceptions on how it is!

Testimont to a great game

[Dol Guldur]

Too true.

And, yes, evyr good mod should strive to be different in some way - and sticking close to the spirit of LoM is a great way to do this otherwise it does become just another Mod with a fantasy theme. I could not agree more. The dev. team should - if they are not already - become familiar with what is already out there so they can avoid running too close to what already exists.

[professorspatula]

Indeed. Just a shame poor Mike tried to destroy the series with that travesty of a game 'Lords of Midnight: The Citadel'. If the bugs don't ruin the game, the worst combat method ever does, as does the fact that nothing actually really happens. Still with it's numerous factions and distinct cultures present, it would probably make for a better TW game than the original, although it would require miles more work.

One idea I was thinking of when I was considering starting a LoM mod, would be to incorporate a tiny part of Dark Sceptre into the game. Ie: special Reaper units that cause fear, Savages that expertly hide etc, and Thralls, simple spear units that make up the bulk of Doomdark's forces.

Anyway good luck with the mod. I might be interested in helping if you want. Can do the odd bit of graphical work, textures, unit cards etc. Sadly I've never figured out the 3D modelling part, which is one of the most important parts of any mod.

By the way, have you thought about using BI as a base? The units are a bit more LoM already, there is religion would could be changed into Free/Foul bias (eg villages succumb to the Ice Fear), and there are hordes which Utarg could use, or even Doomdark. Doomdark could start as a giant horde, which only disbands very slowly so it always has a big number of troops. This way it could easily support it's massive armies. A script could be used to spawn armies into it's starting settlements if need be.

Just possibilities.

[Dol Guldur]

Alexander would be much better for a number of reasons. I think even a day/night rather than summer/winter could be setup in a simulated form, and unique generals/portraits to represent Luxor etc.

Ah, I remember Dark Sceptre - always crashed on me though :( Now, Avalon was a good game - Marik the Sage was it? Something like that...

[professorspatula]

Thing is BI probably halves potential players, whereas Alexander halves it again. I don't have it and never will either. A large number of mods incorporate BI, whereas only a handful require Alexander.

I don't recall playing Avalon, although the name is familiar. Dark Sceptre was a bit like LOM3 : lots of potential, lots of commands, and yet the actual game boiled down to doing just a few basic things, namely making sure you have more Mystics and Thanes than the enemy.


\----> Not sure if you'd be interested, but about 5 years ago I extracted most of the portraits for the characters from LOM3 on the PC and made a few new variations of the existing one for another project I was working on. The portraits are a little cartoony, but are very easy to edit too, thanks to them being very small and using a limited palette. Here I've taken a random load of them (admittedly most are pointless), retouched the colours slightly and stuck them against a generic background so you can see what they might look like before more editing. Ideally you'd get to use the character images from The Midnight Engine instead though (as shown in the pic). The quality is reduced here because of the JPG compression.



Although they aren't the greatest of images, it would be fairly easy to knock up a large number of them for family members, agents etc. That's providing they don't need to age, which would take a lot, lot longer. <---/

[mitch23]

LoM certainly was a great game - which is why we're trying to mod it :)

I tend to think of it as sort of dark ages myself, and it certainly has a rough edge to it. And I agree that magic in LoM is subtle - it's in effects like the Ice Fear.

Interesting idea about the Ice Fear there professorspatula - worth considering - does Alexander have any religion effect? (sorry i still haven't properly investigated what Alexander can do)

I'm guesing this project will take shape gradually, with it becoming more LoM like over time, so it may not look that much like it to start with, but eventually we'll get there - won't we Horseman ;)

I am desperately trying to familiarise myself with the other mods out there (especially the fantasy ones) - but i'm going to need a time machine to fit in all the research games, and the dev work, and the play-testing games, and ... what's it called again... oh, life, that's it ... knew there was something else ;)

[Horseman]

We will get there indeed

[Jubal_Barca]

Horseman, if there's anything I can do to help let me know, I'm not modding for RTW much atm as I have no working map, modeller or team of any sort, so I've got time to help if you need me.

[Horseman]

Thanks Jubal, its all on a go slow at the moment due to real world demands

But some of the things we need at the moment include new character portraits suitable for the setting. You up for trying to see what you can come up with? We need Free, Foul, Targ and Fey (none of us are artists!)

Oh and I'm still looking at your campaign map trying to get it to work when I have spare time, its one of those things that I'm sure is so simple that I'll go GAH when it twigs.

[Aradan]

Glad to hear that you're still going. :)

[mitch23]

yes still going
but... just... a... little... slowly

[Horseman]

Just a quick update -

We are almost at the stage where we're going to unleash the mod on a select band of alpha testers.

This 1st "release" is designed to test the unit models and unit balances (dont want anything silly like Free Militia beating up Fey Vets!) in custom battles.

Although the campaign is playable (theres a map and that) its not finishished and needs a alot of tweaking to get the atmosphere right.....

The models for the most part are "borrowed" from METW and so far the textures, but I have started flexing my skinning skills and practicing so hopefully soon they will look more in line with the setting and look less like middle earth guys.

Which leads me to another point, once released to the community as a whole I am very keen to ensure everysingle person who has contributed gets credit. As we're using METW models and textures (as well as animations/skeletons) I'd like to know who to credit, I'm happy to put "The METW team" but think it'd be nice/polite/correct to also mention them by name. Anyone know where I can get the list of names?

Also in regards to this is it usual to use their actual names or their formum names or both?

Mike

[Roman_Man#3]

Sound great.

Encaitur and Burns are the ones you want to credit for METW.

[Horseman]

Thanks, I'll make sure their names wil get a mention!

[Dol Guldur]

RM3 means Encaitar ;)

Burns is still around and will be the one who knows the details.

Best of luck with the alpha.

[Roman_Man#3]

RM3 means Encaitar ;)

It was a test to test the.....Encaitar was what I meant.

[Aradan]

Any news here? How did the alpha go?

[Horseman]

Just a bit of news.

The 1st Alpha is currently being played by our Volunteer Alpha testers (all from the Midnight MU forums) and aside from a few problems where some of the guys were still using version 1.1 or 1.0 its all looking good.

We're now waiting for any definate balance issues to be raised and/or any definate out of place models to be reported.

I'm still practicing my skinning skills (im getting there!) and so far the unit cards are also all "borrowed" from METW (this mod has been a god send!) but hopefully by time we're ready to unleash the campaign properly for Alpha testing alot of the units will be slighty different looking.

One problem we have encountered is finding a good method to balance unit costs both for the campaign and for custom battles (though the former is more imporant to me)

Are there any good methods/programs that will help with this or is it really just a case of trial and error?

I aim for recruit costs to be high and upkeep to be low (relatively speaking when compared to vanilla RTW) as this (I hope) will help simulate the original Lords of Midnight game better. There will be no cheap way to replenish losses and this will alos serve to ensure that lower end units remain useful through to the end (Do you sink all your available money into recruiting 1 powerful unit that will take 3-5 turns to be ready or do you build a few lower units that'll be ready in 1-3 turns?)

Well if anyone can help with unit cost balance let me know!

Thanks
Mike

[satanea juda]

(Do you sink all your available money into recruiting 1 powerful unit that will take 3-5 turns to be ready or do you build a few lower units that'll be ready in 1-3 turns?)

I open the edu and change them..

People tend to get board if they can't recruit at least a couple or three good stacks to wage war with, never mind small stacks of auxiliaries to garrison captured settlements and keeping a decent garrison back for defensive purposes. I find the Ai tends to keep in line with what the player is doing, but you don't want to get caught out with weak armies. ''The Crusades had pretty long recruitment times, 8-10 for some units, which I think was to accommodate a 4tpy script, then there's Mak's method of removing lower end units from each stage of new barracks, you always have to fight strong opponents eventually, you could also change the attributes of the different levels, ie; pikemen (phalanx) for the first two levels and then sword ,axe,spear-men, for the elites.

[Dol Guldur]

then there's Mak's method of removing lower end units from each stage of new barracks, you always have to fight strong opponents eventually

Don't players complain about not being able to train the removed units in all regions? Or trying to work out which they can train in and which they can't?

When we tried the USV (unit-size variation) system this was a big bugbear and we abandoned it for this reason.

[Makanyane]

Don't players complain about not being able to train the removed units in all regions? Or trying to work out which they can train in and which they can't?

When we tried the USV (unit-size variation) system this was a big bugbear and we abandoned it for this reason.

Had some comments about it on EoD, less on version II, no full scale revolt - (though that doesn't mean people don't object / aren't quietly modding it back themselves....) It's not that disruptive when you get used to it - just take sensible approach and don't upgrade all barracks / stables etc in all cities, which also saves you money, then you should have somewhere nearby to send old units back to retrain. AI never seems to send depleted troops back so they aren't losing anything by it, and as they do keep upgrading to max it should mean they are sending more of higher class units.

Really a lot of this comes down to personal taste, a lot of mods go for strict AOR systems but as having to ferry decent units up to front line over 5 turns plus drives both me and SJ up the wall we never used that system, despite it being preference for some more realism based mods / players.

EDIT: was part of problem with the unit size variation that things still looked like same unit? one version I saw seemed to - we've had that when we had mercs and normal units sharing unit card - and it does become pain in the rear to work out which units you can merge with which when in the field.

[Horseman]

Interesting points, one of the things I am hoping to achieve is that there will be next to no settlement improvements (most settlements will start close to if not already maxed out)

Also I'm looking to limit recruitment, you'll start with a fair sized army. The trick will be to maintain enough of it to conquere the world with limited reinforcements.

We shall see how it plays....it might not work!

[satanea juda]

Don't players complain about not being able to train the removed units in all regions? Or trying to work out which they can train in and which they can't?

But it's all about what I want..

I look at it same way as Mak, some settlements become military centres constantly upgrading barracks, stables ect, the others become financial cities. It works for EODI as the map covers a lot of ground and for EODII which has lots of islands, it's easy to keep your starting regions fairly safe so you don't need to upgrade every settlement as you expand.

you could also change the attributes of the different levels, ie; pikemen (phalanx) for the first two levels and then sword ,axe,spear-men, for the elites.

That's not what I meant to say.. The system gives you the option of changing the fighting/tactical/formation style of a faction as it grows, in EOD this probably worked best with 'Albion' who start out with fairly strong Pikemen and then switch to sword men, axemen and knights, by the time your to recruit knights the pikemen probably won't stand up against the enemies upgraded units, forcing the player to rethink how they fight battles. (Sorry, ocd..couldn't let it go)

Also I'm looking to limit recruitment, you'll start with a fair sized army. The trick will be to maintain enough of it to conquer the world with limited reinforcements.

You might want to take a gander at 58bc Imperator, I haven't played it myself but it sounds like a system that might interest you..

Numbered legions with their own unique skin bring beautiful visual effects to 58BC. The veteran legions of Gaius Iulius Caesar march once again through the mud and blood of Gaul and across the dusty battlefields of the Civil War. Each soldier is irreplaceable.

Retraining the numbered legions is not an option. Every man counts and tactical deccisions are the key for keeping your army alive.
The script provides for periodic suplementa to refill the ranks of the army. Not only will you have to defeat the enemy but you will also have to take care of your men. Tactical planning is more important than ever.

[Horseman]

Thanks Satanea I'll have a gander at that.

though at this point I do not plan on using any scripts for various reasons, it'll be interesting to see how some one else has managed to achieve something akin to what I was planning.

[satanea juda]

I think the scripting only supplements your forces as to go, I'm assuming you can recruit AOR auxiliaries just not named legions, so you start with a top quality firm but can't replenish them..The 77bc mod (by the same team) has a system where when you recruit a general he comes with a small legion (8 units I think) which costs you an arm and a leg (5000) .. The 'FRRE' come up with some pretty cool ideas.

[cherryfunk]

Nice work on the map for this, guys! I remember playing LoM back in the day -- kids today have no idea how spoiled they are when it comes to strategy gaming!

One thing you might consider, given the land-locked nature of the map, would be to add navigable rivers, so that ship travel could be included...

[mitch23]

Thanks for the compliment cherryfunk, and I agree that making an entirely landlocked campaign is going to make things very different from most TW games - but I suspect we will try to keep it without rivers so as to maintain the feel of the original game.
Good point though, and if nothing else the lack of ships means potential income is much more limited than in a more conventional game. We hope to compensate by the fact that most settlements will start with most buildings already built, along with most factions having large armies to start with (and with correspondingly lower upkeep costs for them).

[Horseman]

Nothing much to add from Mitch's comments.

We definately wont be adding any sea/river travel on th LOM scenario due to wanting to keep to the original however one of the MMU scenarios does include rivers so who knows what'll happen in the future!

And thanks from me as well for your kind comments Cherryfunk, I was very pleased with how the map turned out, especially as it was my 1st ever attempt!