Org Promotion

[Mouzafphaerre]

I was just being silly

[edyzmedieval]

Ah, the good old days of stratification and class struggle Back in the day it was Junior Patron, Patron, Junior Member, Member, Senior Member AND WE LIKED IT!

Of course you did. Especially as a Senior Member.

[Tuuvi]

It seems a lot of blame is going to the index for the lack of enthusiasm for the Org and why TWC is getting a lot of traffic. I don't know that TWC has a much better index than the Org (though theirs does look less cluttered), I think the root problem lies deeper. Now their index seems more vivid with their TWC logos by each section, so that may help them. They have a lot of threads for Attila, much more than we have, but not much for Warhammer (comparatively), which tells me that
a) Warhammer was not as popular as the other games
b) Our problem started before Attila

Personally I find TWC's index a pain to navigate, I had to click on several different links just to get to the EB II forums so I just bookmarked EB and I haven't really bothered with the rest of the site very much.

You are right that our problem started before Attila, I can remember the activity of this site starting to decline when Empire Total War was released and we had discussions about what to do about the decline back then as well.

[Vincent Butler]

I attempted to use the in-game DVR, I will have to try it again as it quit in the middle of my battle. I may have to set it up, the webpage I saw has a setup screen in the screenshot, and I did not see it when I went into it, so that may be the problem.

so I just bookmarked EB and I haven't really bothered with the rest of the site very much

That may be happening a lot, I have done it on the Subsim forum I am on. Same with RTR. With the Org, I bookmarked the Forum site, so that is why I notice what is happening in other areas than the Rome forum, which is pretty much the only part I am on.

I have not tried to navigate TWC, but as far as appearance goes, ours seems cluttered. For example, when I go to look at say the Rome section, I see the moderators and links to all the Rome subsections in a small area. Not that I am saying that we should copy them, but perhaps it is something that can be rearranged.

Of course, as RS has pointed out, maybe some of the regulars got their own lives and have less time for the Org. I am still single, so outside of college, work, and church I have no real commitments. Others may have gained some. That said, we are trying to figure out why we aren't getting new people as well. As I pointed out, somebody googling Total War stuff is not going to see us because we are so far down the list of hits. I think that is by amount of visitors to that particular site, but am not sure of that. If we can change that somehow we will be in business.

Perhaps someone can answer this question. How popular is modding the game versus just playing the vanilla version? Do we need to tailor our appeal more to modders or regular gamers? I am just asking because a lot of people bring up the modding community. I know I mainly play just vanilla RTW, some RTR, some EB. I tried MTW2 but the inquisitors drove me away. Also, do more people focus on one game, or do they have a more broad range of the TW games that they play?

[Gigantus]

I tried MTW2 but the inquisitors drove me away.

That's the kind of stuff that starts it - looking for a fix that is. If the solution is easily found (it's a simple text file edit), or even just the place where to ask, then the forum is doing a good job of providing support.
With the right motivation it also starts modding - even more so if the forum environment supports this as well. That is if you can find the place -

• Forum
• Historical Total War Titles
• Medieval 2: Total War
• M2:TW Modification
• Learn to Mod
• Modding Questions

Anyone surprised that the last post in that forum was six months ago?

How popular is modding the game versus just playing the vanilla version?

Seriously? The question is probably not asked correctly, the direct answer: if you can't mod then you haven't much of an option. If you still play the vanilla version after more then 10 years then hats off to you.
If the question is 'Do you still play vanilla or modded versions?' then I am wondering if you have ever tried a mod.

With regards to RTW and M2TW I would simply say that without the excellent modding capabilities these versions have they would have slipped into oblivion like ETW, NTW, S2 have already done and as R2 is busy doing. I think the question should be 'How much modding is still happening and how can it be supported'.

Certainly not by burying the forums 5 levels down.

[Axalon]

Toché!

Excellent post, Gigs.

- A

[Gigantus]

Thanks, I have my moments

[Vincent Butler]

That's the kind of stuff that starts it - looking for a fix that is. If the solution is easily found (it's a simple text file edit), or even just the place where to ask, then the forum is doing a good job of providing support.
With the right motivation it also starts modding - even more so if the forum environment supports this as well. That is if you can find the place -

• Forum
• Historical Total War Titles
• Medieval 2: Total War
• M2:TW Modification
• Learn to Mod
• Modding Questions

Anyone surprised that the last post in that forum was six months ago?



Seriously? The question is probably not asked correctly, the direct answer: if you can't mod then you haven't much of an option. If you still play the vanilla version after more then 10 years then hats off to you.
If the question is 'Do you still play vanilla or modded versions?' then I am wondering if you have ever tried a mod.

Good point on how far you have to go to find stuff on modding.

I think I like vanilla RTW because of its simplicity. RTR is nice, but still has bugs last I knew, and with 16 credits this semester, including three upper division electrical engineering classes, I have had virtually zero time for gaming.

I love EB, but it is certainly more in-depth. With the extra lengths of time to build, and increased costs of building and training, it is not as casual, so I will have to wait till I get more time to devote to a campaign. Also, it has a tendency to eventually crash in a campaign, and I can't get those campaigns to work again. I like to see a campaign through at least till I beat the game, preferably till I conquer the entire map. However, with EB, that will probably not be the case, considering the size of the map.

[Gigantus]

You just stated more reasons why mods need the proper exposure and support. Picking up a mod and trying it and then having problems playing is a sure put off if you haven't got good access to problem solving. It's rather simple - the more feed back a mod has the better it will evolve.

Putting 'older' (low traffic) mods into a forum suffixed 'Archive' is about as much as a death kiss as one can wish for:

Rome: Total War

(1 Viewing)
Old or Inactive Hosted R:TW Mods

Last post - July this year, a bit over 30 mods in there. Any surprises?


All in all you have 5 active mods for all Total War versions - prominently displayed and taking all the lime light. Now why would anyone bother about those other 30 mods further down?

[Husar]

That's the kind of stuff that starts it - looking for a fix that is. If the solution is easily found (it's a simple text file edit), or even just the place where to ask, then the forum is doing a good job of providing support.
With the right motivation it also starts modding - even more so if the forum environment supports this as well. That is if you can find the place -

• Forum
• Historical Total War Titles
• Medieval 2: Total War
• M2:TW Modification
• Learn to Mod
• Modding Questions

Anyone surprised that the last post in that forum was six months ago?

It's only two clicks from the first layer to the last.
How would you arrange this particular example to make it more accessible or easier to find?

[Vincent Butler]

You just stated more reasons why mods need the proper exposure and support. Picking up a mod and trying it and then having problems playing is a sure put off if you haven't got good access to problem solving. It's rather simple - the more feed back a mod has the better it will evolve.

All in all you have 5 active mods for all Total War versions - prominently displayed and taking all the lime light. Now why would anyone bother about those other 30 mods further down?

Now how many mods are actually active working mods and not just projects? That is also relevant, because obviously if it is not active, nobody can play it and therefore there will only be activity from the modders, if they are still even working on it. Those might be able to go into a separate category, and if they become active, they can be moved up at the request of the modders.

[Gigantus]

It's only two clicks from the first layer to the last.
How would you arrange this particular example to make it more accessible or easier to find?

Getting into the 'modding questions' forum is actually three clicks if you go directly to 'modifications' from the forum view. My suggestion: Have a 'workshop' forum with sub fora for each game version. It's intuitive and central. It will also make the limited material appear more substantial.
Note: while displaying child forums in the forum view works well in this case it unnecessarily stretches the forum page (Hosted Mods (Archive) section), not having the child fora alphabetically sorted doesn't help either in long lists.

Now how many mods are actually active working mods and not just projects? That is also relevant, because obviously if it is not active, nobody can play it and therefore there will only be activity from the modders, if they are still even working on it. Those might be able to go into a separate category, and if they become active, they can be moved up at the request of the modders.

It's irrelevant if a mod is active or not (be it traffic wise or modding wise) when it comes to playing - provided the download link is still valid. Pro Deo et Rege (the first mod I participated in should you wonder) over at TWC is dead for at least 5 years now and still gets downloaded. Putting those inactive mods into a separate forum is simply putting a 'certified dead, of no further interest, don't bother' stamp on it. That's what 'archive' means on a website, it's for reference purpose only.
A website takes it's significance from the traffic it generates, actively excluding content from possible traffic goes completely against that.

Shuffling individual forums back and forth according to activity is probably every admins night mare - never mind 'oops, where is my favorite mod now?'.

Leaving all mods of a game version in one forum doesn't hurt their viewing rate: at TWC EBII is in between 68 other mods (alphabetically sorted) and still has double the posts compared to here where it has got a prime, top level forum to itself.

Edit: it's probably best if I a do a clarification so as to avoid misunderstandings - I have been an administrator at TWC for several years now and going into details how to approach the issue (eg what vbulletin add-on to use or which content strategy to follow) constitutes a conflict of interest for me. I do however owe you the courtesy as participating member of this forum to point out areas that I think need change and offer general suggestions.
Correcting misconceptions is par for the course.

[edyzmedieval]

Gig, from my part, I am aware you are the admin of TWC - but that should not stop you from posting suggestions. You are a member of the Org as well, you are definitely entitled to your own opinions and they are welcome, particularly when you have considerable forum experience.

[Gigantus]

I won't stop making broad suggestions or point the finger in a direction and leave the choice of following up on it to you - I simply mentioned it because others might wonder why I am making noise and don't come up with more detailed suggestions. Nothing more irritating then a complainer that doesn't offer a proper alternative.

[Axalon]

I generally agree with what Gigantus says in his posts above (post 159 & 162) save two things, and I’ll try to focus on that in this post here. I'll try to provide some perspective out of the actual receiving end, as a published modder in general on this site….

1. In order for there to be a point in have a mod hosted, and especially so in this site it has to pay off in gaining/holding that status for your project. It has too pay off somehow to keep supporting and maintaining it, even after completion. It has too be attractive, beneficial and meaningful to do so on this site. It has too go beyond the standard package of sub-fora and local moderator rights. It has too offer something more, it has to be something better. The most natural and viable step in that direction that this site CAN offer is probably location and by extension exposure, and the neighboring and available infrastructure here. The location has too be as good, or preferably better then the usual/regular space for ordinary threads – if not, then the “Hosted Mod”-package will have fundamentally failed in attracting potential candidates in a competitive way (which is a necessity). This failure has actually happened here at the Org in the past, and several mods seems to have turned down the prospect of gaining hosted status. Obviously that is bad. Having mods hosted is a benefit and advantage for a site, as it draws strength and traffic from that stuff – once properly supported and established – it generates traffic and interest to this site. This goes especially for a small struggling site like this one. So, attractive location is an important factor that has too be included in the "hosted mod"-package, and as it is - its not (not on this site anyways). This basically leads us to my second point...

2. Being bunched up and forced to share section/category with EB 1 & 2 are nowhere as glamorous as Gigantus suggest it to be (in post:159). The fact is that the ONLY common ground the other three small projects have with EB is: they happen to be mod-projects too. Its not for the same games, its not for the same crowds, its not the same ideas, problems or challenges. We are structurally severed from our base game, on which we always depend. We have no exchange with EB, at all. We have zero reason too, its not same games. The unrealistic and oversimplified “community”-concept and notion that this administration keeps insisting upon falls apart right here. The reality is that there is no community in the "Hosted Mod"-section/category of this site – not between EB's and the other projects who are forced to reside there. At least all the other three projects are for the same game - MTW. So technically I could go to - say the “Ancient boys” – and ask if they had a clue on whatever problem X and hopefully get some assistance or further clues on it, or they could come to me. That is possible, because it the same game. We have at least something, in common.

Then there are manpower and scale factors. "Redux" is a solo-projext, "Pike & Musket" are 1-3 people, "Ancient" 3-5 people. Its small stuff in comparison with EB 1&2, and it need posts, interest and exposure on a whole other level the EB 1&2 does with its roughly 10 moderators each. I am one man, I alone can only go so far in the Redux-area, I have certainly tried talking to myself but in the end I must have external input and posts all the same for anything to truly happen there. Basically, its an entirely different reality, with completely different problems and challenges. All this are roughly true and representative for the other two MTW-projects as well, as I understand it. Its like two virtual skyscrapers and three small houses sorted in the same place because they are all “buildings”. Its absurd and is NOT doing the other three projects any favours. That's the experience I had consistently some 4+ years now...

The "limelight" Gigs, is the great and eternal shadow of two skyscrapers upon our three small houses, I seen little else thus far...

- A

[Gigantus]

Having unrelated mods in one forum is an unhappy solution - splitting it up to highlight the actual game version they belong to doesn't make much sense either given the quantity.

Maybe I am simply used to it - but I still think the arrangement at TWC works where the game version is the top forum with the direct child forums being general discussion, mod projects and mod workshops. (two clicks to mod questions ) If highlighting of active mods is desired then putting a simple divider (finger pointing to the forum manager in vbulletin) in the forum's mod list should not present a problem, similar to what we have by way of 'mods under development' in the same forum as 'released mods'. Which means instead of sitting alone next to strange skyscrapers you sit at the top of your peers' list. (Insert nag: don't forget that alphabetical sorting)

Simply put the 'active' mod forums above the divider and the 'older' ones below. And under no circumstance use words like 'archive' or 'inactive' in the divider!

[Vincent Butler]

So is it accurate to say that we need to increase awareness of our existence, or is that only a minor issue, and we need to get the people who know of us back, and focus in that direction? My point is, do we want to focus on drawing the prodigals back, or focus more on new members? Obviously we want to do both, but maybe we should focus more on one. Then again, as has been pointed out, we get plenty of new members who post in the Entrance Hall and then never show up again. Why, is the question that we need to know the answer for.
It seems the consensus (and I am not disagreeing) is the reason the new members don't stick around is the same reason longer-standing members left. The blame is going to the index, which probably is a contributing factor, though it can't be the only factor. There have to be more reasons. I know that I get tired of seeing arguments between members who disagree with each other, and the argument gets drawn out. I imagine that is the same on other forums, people are people.
It seems our main competition in this order are the .com, TWC, and Steam Communities. The .com is at the top of a Google search, does that mean they get the most visits? The assumption would be since they are the .com website, as opposed to .org or .net, they are the official site of the game and therefore the best place to go. How do we draw attention away from them and to us?
I know I am stating what everyone is saying, I am kind of just thinking out loud, identifying the problems and possible solutions. In my opinion, visibility is our problem. I forget how I got to the Org (glad I did), I joined in 2014, and at the time, it seemed less confusing than Total War Heaven, which I kept associating with TWC to some degree, don't ask me why. The layout of our index was very easy to follow as I was simply trying to get to RTW forums. Going deeper would probably have been more confusing.

[Vincent Butler]

Sorry, double post.

[edyzmedieval]

IMHO, getting both older and newer members is our thing. We want our old guard back - clearly - but we do realise that not too many of them will return because one of the reasons that people do not visit the boards any more is because they do not play Total War any more. From my part, I still do, and I still love the games, hence why I still come back here and also because I really enjoy this place.

At the same time, there's a new generation of Total War members coming in. Rome 2 TW (historical) and Warhammer TW (fantasy) have smashed sales records and have brought record numbers of Total War players. Warhammer surpassed every expectation and cleared all sales records, but also because of the cross-platform promotion with the Warhammer world.

What we need to do is to bring them here.

[Vincent Butler]

IMHO, getting both older and newer members is our thing. We want our old guard back - clearly - but we do realise that not too many of them will return because one of the reasons that people do not visit the boards any more is because they do not play Total War any more. From my part, I still do, and I still love the games, hence why I still come back here and also because I really enjoy this place.

Yeah, I understand. I am stuck with no life right now, so this is as much social interaction as I get. So the trick is figuring out how to draw and keep new visitors, and get the old ones back who are still interested. For the new crowd, we need to make it interesting. For the old crowd, we need to make it simple to navigate, which will also keep new members.
Ideas for the videos on the front page. For interesting, is the Narnia Total War mod working? Videos of gameplay of that might draw attention. But also videos of naval battles might get attention, something out of the ordinary. Rome 2 could do sea battles, right? That would probably be very interesting, certainly out of the ordinary. Only problem is, somebody just wanting to watch videos of the gameplay will probably just go to Youtube, so Youtube can be a double-edged sword. Links to the Org from there would probably serve us well, people decide to check us out after seeing the videos. Some of our guys probably already do that anyway.

And why do I have a picture of a shark as my avatar when my title says Legionary Moose? Oh well, I'll leave that question for the philosophers. Sharks are cool, moose are not.

[edyzmedieval]

These are the points that I have been making, and that I will try and rectify. Freshening up the content around is needed, and having local content would make this top notch.

[ghostofxmaspast]

These are the points that I have been making, and that I will try and rectify. Freshening up the content around is needed, and having local content would make this top notch.

Please do explain how one goes about "freshening up the content"?

You do know that a messageboard is just a means of community building and interaction, etc...? "content" doesn't even come into it. "content" is in fact old ground which has been gone over before and this is the result.

Years ago it was discussed and transpired that most members came to the .org for the forum, there were quite a few who did not even know there was a website attached to it.

[edyzmedieval]

Sure.

On the side, you have some videos. A video tab with TW videos. Those need refreshing. Similarly, you had things over here like contests, Gahzette, different Org competitions over time... that's the Org content. By refreshing I mean adding more content and generating more for our local patrons. They visit this place, so in order to keep them here, we have to keep our patrons engaged.

I totally agree with you that this is a forum that people come to it to discuss, and they come here for that. Totally agree here. What we can do is to offer them a bit more than just the discussion in itself.

[ghostofxmaspast]

Gah... that's my point - all the "content" such as Gahzette and contests has been tried. It didn't make a jot of difference and the people involved just burnt out. Do you simply intend to repeat the same process all over again?

You can't build traffic and interest out of something that volatile. Any effort where a few designated people fuss about doing all the legwork to generate "content" is doomed to failure - sorry but it's been tried and it failed.

One of the reasons it failed was because staff and members were posting in here (or in the private staff forum) about running a board and generating 'content' and designing new themes to increase traffic, instead of posting in the main forum about the games, which this site is supposed to be about.

The .org simply needs to go back to it's roots, it doesn't need to have people running it as a hobby website and trying to put it on the map. .org will be niche and low traffic because that's what it is.

Be the traffic and the activity and the "content" will appear naturally...

[edyzmedieval]

No, not in that way.

Refreshing content doesn't necessarily mean redoing old things. Producing content is done by the members, not by the Org itself. We do not act as content producers - because there is no point in doing that and there are plenty of people producing quality content. I propose that the Org acts as content promoters, which is a different game than producing the content. Promote the content, people want to see content, and we have the platform. Encourage the discussion and promote the relevant, quality content.

[Vincent Butler]

Sure.

On the side, you have some videos. A video tab with TW videos. Those need refreshing.

I was thinking the same thing, how long has that Sekigahara video been up there? As long as I can remember. That would probably help.

Also agreed, the main reason people come here is the forum. I first came here for advice, and then to give advice. Also, as one gains experience, he needs less help, so he comes here less. That is why we need to increase our visibility to draw new members. Increasing our visibility is one of our problems, and I have not really come up with a solution yet.
We also need to provide incentive for older members to stick around, if they still play. That is where the competitions come into play. Then again, a tournament/competition probably requires a time commitment, which I know I cannot commit to right now, and I am sure others either. Then again, with more members, the number of those who could participate is greater, so again, that is why we need more members. As has been pointed out, many members who left left because they stopped playing due to other commitments.

Part of the reason I stick around is the community, but I still play, so I still want advice sometimes dealing with a particular issue. That is why we need the older members.

[edyzmedieval]

Indeed. Increasing visibility on all channels is the way forward, because Total War has a very big fanbase.

And an even bigger fanbase now with Warhammer!

[Gigantus]

Content on the home page only makes sense if it is informative - which means it needs to be up to date where game news is concerned as well as being regularly renewed where stuff like spot lighting of mods, articles is concerned. The members themselves are the best contributors for that, simply put an admin in charge of screening and placing it and do a global (vbulletin) promotion of it to encourage contribution.

[ReluctantSamurai]

as well as being regularly renewed where stuff like spot lighting of mods

And seeing as how modders are probably the second largest crowd to visit the Org, spotlighting their craft makes a world of sense.

[edyzmedieval]

Informative content, related to Total War, related to the community, made by the community... This is what we should aim for to promote on the Org.