Preview: The Romani

[ziegenpeter]

Hopefully before N:TW.

Nukular:TW?

[Scipio Germanicus]

Nukular:TW?

Napoleon: Total War, the next TW game. Here's some info about it from SEGA

http://www.sega.com/games/napoleon-total-war

[neoiq5719]

Thank you! It's very important to know that some players will be waiting for EBII even if takes a long time to do.


We're preparing the next preview with roman units. Summer vacations have delayed this a bit, but we hope to release it very soon.

And...will this preview be any time this century?

[SwissBarbar]

Wrong question

[JMRC]

And...will this preview be any time this century?

Well... if you know how to model and/or skin, then why don't you come over and help? Otherwise, it's not nice to hurry those who work for you without pay.

[G. Septimus]

Man, EBII is going to be so ******* awesome!

yeah, cant wait to see the roman badassnes

[Phalanx300]

I figure the units will look like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L41MJLXJAYI

[WarpGhost]

Is EB2 going to be monthly turns or something and I've missed it being said? Its not in the FAQ as far as I can see. Because I dont understand how the offices thing will be anything but a collossal pain in the 4 seasons model. People could move around a lot faster in reality than in TW games, and didnt generally get 'exhaustion' that would last most of the year.

[Skullheadhq]

If so, it would take 3432 turns to get to 14AD!

[WarpGhost]

Which is why I thought it unlikely, but it would also make this new offices thing frustrating, especially if the removal of the Imperium trait isnt predictable. Its not like I was a Romanoi player before, and its even less likely now. I love EB because it adds a lot of history stuff and makes the combat more enjoyable, without compromising its value as a game with the use of interfering gimmicks (in this case, levying arbitrary penalties on not using it, and removing my control over my characters, though in the latter case at least there appears to be no penalty for not doing it). I hope this isnt emblamatic of a slew of new such 'features'.

Where'd the edit button go...?

Anyway, what I mean to say I have an issue with is the lack of choice this addition implies; someone who has a different attitude to the use of realism in games will make something like this work regardless of practicality, as the general response implies. Plenty of people add all sorts of rules to their games to cater for their tastes. But they have a choice to use those 'features', whereas that choice is taken away with the above 'offices feature', and other things made in the same vein. It also doesnt sound like the sort of thing that is easy to edit out of the script. So the only choice to exercise is not to play the faction (though it wont stop the impact on the AI), and as someone who hasnt been encouraged to play a certain way or faction in the past, this type of 'feature' acts as an active discouragement.

(and before someone makes a comment, I use the ' ' to mark out a specific element, not as a denotion of sarcasm)

[JMRC]

We will have 4 turns per year. The player is not forced to use the offices. He may just keep playing and ignore them. However, if you wish to add a roleplaying touch to your game, you will make sure your best political generals will be in Rome for the elections.

[WarpGhost]

But the punishment for non-office characters launching an attack will still apply, correct?

[Epimetheus]

Not neccessarily. Though I never really played it much, I do recall the Deus Lo Volt M2TW mod having a number of features like these offices, but they were optional. Rather than activating one massive script at the start of a game, you could pick and choose the elements you'd like to have through a number of smaller background scripts. I suspect that EB2 will likely work in a similar way, since it seems possible to do so.

[Atilius]

I'd like to respond to a few points you raised in your posts.

... but it would also make this new offices thing frustrating, especially if the removal of the Imperium trait isnt predictable.

The Imperium trait is lost when the character ceases being Propraetor or Proconsul, and the player will be notified of the fact with a trait message. The only possible element of "unpredictability" is that we may consider lengthening the terms of one or both of these offices as the number of provinces increases.

... what I mean to say I have an issue with is the lack of choice this addition implies; someone who has a different attitude to the use of realism in games will make something like this work regardless of practicality, as the general response implies. Plenty of people add all sorts of rules to their games to cater for their tastes. But they have a choice to use those 'features', whereas that choice is taken away with the above 'offices feature', ...

Where there's a choice between catering to the tastes of those who enjoy historical realism and those who are indifferent to it, we are comfortable favoring those prefer historical realism. Instead of forcing them to develop "house rules" for better historical play, we'd rather build them into the game. This also allows the game to better guide a novice who wishes to play historically, but doesn't know how. Finally, the team has always believed that more realism and more historical depth generally make for a better, more challenging the game. That's why EB came into being.

...So the only choice to exercise is not to play the faction (though it wont stop the impact on the AI)

The AI is not constrained by the same rules for Roman offices as the player since we can't make it understand them. If you wish to avoid the Romani, there will be 29 others to choose from.

[WarpGhost]

The Imperium trait is lost when the character ceases being Propraetor or Proconsul, and the player will be notified of the fact with a trait message.

By unpredictability, I mean knowing when that message is going to appear; knowing that it will end at some point isnt unpredictable, we can predict that with 100% certainty from the information provided. Is it a fixed term of Imperium (through combination of Consul/Praetor and Proconsul/Propraetor), or is it a non-predictable timeframe? That is the question I was asking. A fixed term makes it more manageable.

Instead of forcing them to develop "house rules" for better historical play, we'd rather build them into the game. This also allows the game to better guide a novice who wishes to play historically, but doesn't know how. Finally, the team has always believed that more realism and more historical depth generally make for a better, more challenging the game. That's why EB came into being.

I applaud the sentiment, especially for the novices, but we will agree to disagree on this point; I've done a fair bit of games development myself, and my experiences have lead me to conclude that proportionality (eg. between game and reality, rather than going one way or the other for its own sake) should be a firm guideline.

[Ludens]

Where'd the edit button go...?

Is it still missing? Junior members don't have an edit button, and IIRC you were promoted recently.

[Phalanx300]

The AI is not constrained by the same rules for Roman offices as the player since we can't make it understand them. If you wish to avoid the Romani, there will be 29 others to choose from.

So no scripting faction? Thats great news and a good decision.

[WarpGhost]

Is it still missing? Junior members don't have an edit button, and IIRC you were promoted recently.

No, its there now (but it wasnt at the time I made that post). But I've edited posts on the EB1 board as a junior; is it a restriction on the EB2 board only?

[Skullheadhq]

Why shouldn't juniors be allowed to edit there post?
It sometimes forces them to double post and then everybody gets annoyed.

[Ludens]

No, its there now (but it wasnt at the time I made that post). But I've edited posts on the EB1 board as a junior; is it a restriction on the EB2 board only?

No, it should be the same on both. I guess this wasn't fixed after the crash a few months back. These settings are quite easy to overlook. I'll pass this on to the administrator. Thanks for pointing it out.

Why shouldn't juniors be allowed to edit there post?
It sometimes forces them to double post and then everybody gets annoyed.

On the .Org, the idea is that members edit, spell-check and correct their post before hitting the "submit reply" button . There have been a few incidents in which members posted abuse to bait their opponents and then removed it before the mods got on-line, so we thought it best to disable the edit button for new members until we get to know them a bit better.

This is less of an issue with the new vBulletin software, so maybe this policy should be revised.

[Owen Glyndwr]

I've done a fair bit of games development myself, and my experiences have lead me to conclude that proportionality (eg. between game and reality, rather than going one way or the other for its own sake) should be a firm guideline.

Europa Barbarorum was designed to create a strictly historically accurate game, often at the expense of what some would consider "fun gameplay". But here's the deal, most people here consider historically accurate gameplay to be fun. If you don't, then you have a number of options:

1. As Atilius so politely suggested, play a different faction (You did mention that you don't like playing as Rome anyways, so what's the big deal?)
2. Ignore it and play anyways, as some here have suggested
3. Go back to vanilla, you'll probably find a much better so called "balance" between gameplay and "reality" there.

[Cambyses]

heh, its a totally valid question to ask if the criteria to be in Rome will be an issue when using the new offices system. I mean, it sounds like a fantastic addition to the game, but it will have to be play tested to the point that it actually works. I mean for example sending a pro... to Iberia will likely take at least 18 months or so judging by movement speed in both EB1 and MIITW (more if you use artillery, but lets no go there!). Add in any 6+ turn siege and its VERY likely the imperium will have ended some time ago. ie before any campaign for a non-blitz player has really started.

It would also be interesting to find out if the attack penalties will be applied to client rulers or allied generals.

Remember that in real history a general could probably travel to Rome (for whatever reason) from Iberia or Asia Minor and then back to renew his campaign - with reinforcement perhaps - within about one EB turn. So this conflict between "gameplay and reality" is to a certain extent a fiction. We are only really discussing a gameplay issue.

[Horatius Flaccus]

You can just use the 'move_character' cheat.

[Atilius]

...sending a pro... to Iberia will likely take at least 18 months or so judging by movement speed in both EB1 and MIITW ... Add in any 6+ turn siege and its VERY likely the imperium will have ended...

As I wrote earlier, we may wish to extend the terms of the promagestries as the number of controlled regions increases in order to avoid the problem you describe. And at some point we will need to accomodate the equivalents of L. Licinius Lucullus' seven-year tenure in the east, and Caesar's ten year command in Gaul.

It would also be interesting to find out if the attack penalties will be applied to client rulers or allied generals.

Client rulers probably yes, allied generals probably no, though allied generals don't fit well into the Roman system of the EB period.

Remember that in real history a general could probably travel to Rome (for whatever reason) from Iberia or Asia Minor and then back to renew his campaign - with reinforcement perhaps - within about one EB turn. So this conflict between "gameplay and reality" is to a certain extent a fiction. We are only really discussing a gameplay issue.

No, there are definitely historical realism issues involved. The Imperium trait exists to (1) discourage the player from using historically ineligible characters (those who don't hold senior magestries) to command large armies offensively and (2) to promote an historical rotation of command.

[SwissBarbar]

You can just use the 'move_character' cheat.

It's not that easy with rome, the romans don't let themselves be moved around like the FM's of other factions

[Cambyses]

As I wrote earlier, we may wish to extend the terms of the promagestries as the number of controlled regions increases in order to avoid the problem you describe. And at some point we will need to accomodate the equivalents of L. Licinius Lucullus' seven-year tenure in the east, and Caesar's ten year command in Gaul.
Client rulers probably yes, allied generals probably no, though allied generals don't fit well into the Roman system of the EB period.
No, there are definitely historical realism issues involved. The Imperium trait exists to (1) discourage the player from using historically ineligible characters (those who don't hold senior magestries) to command large armies offensively and (2) to promote an historical rotation of command.

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my message so thoroughly. I absolutely agree that this proposed system will add another level of realism to the game. My concern is entirely with its practical application, not the theory.

More specifically in relation to:

1. travel times, turns spent sieging - variance from historical reality as above
2. character build up in Rome, ie during the mid game when its quite possible to have 30+ family members
3. the game design original purpose of family members as city governors (including but not limited to espionage defence, building and recruitment costs, income modifiers, culture modifiers, region defence, squalor/farming modifier and other public order benefits).

It seems however that you have already given these potential issues a certain amount of thought. I look forward to discovering the resolution when EBII is released. If you ever need assistance before then with play testing, I would be more than happy to volunteer.

PS: my comment re historical realism was really mostly related to WarpGhost's posts, where I felt he had been unfairly jumped on by some members. It isnt possible to represent every aspect of the ancient military world accurately using the TW engine. Some compromises must always be made. For example vanilla, EB1 and most other mods Ive seen waive the requirement to be in Rome in order to be elected consul due to the travel time issue. This doesnt per se make them less realistic, it just accepts and works around certain features of the game design, and requires the player to use his imagination for the rest.

[anubis88]

It's not that easy with rome, the romans don't let themselves be moved around like the FM's of other factions

Sure they do... It just requiers a little more patience

[G. Septimus]

no, there are a number of men that can go anywhere....

[anubis88]

no, there are a number of men that can go anywhere....

I guess you wanted to say a number of men that can'T! go anywhere... so please enlighten me about whom you are speaking, since i've never encountered anyone i could'nt move

[G. Septimus]

I guess you wanted to say a number of men that can'T! go anywhere... so please enlighten me about whom you are speaking, since i've never encountered anyone i could'nt move

The Consuls can move anywhere they want , with the permission of the senate off course,
Diplomats,Spies, and Asassins can move any where they want to go