Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

Game host / Moderator instruction:

Everyone please stop posting for a while.

The game is over, there will be no more play. I will discuss the setup, reveal stuff, and so forth soon. But the game has ended, because it's gotten out of hand a bit.

I want to thank everyone who played, especially our new players and our on-hand sub player, and suggest that this is an atypical result here on the org, as in it's probably never happened before. If you check our other games, it usually goes a lot more smoothly than this. But I understand if you had a bad experience.

Just want you to know, as the game host, I appreciated your efforts and I hope there were parts of the game that were fun or interesting.

More to come

[Monstrdude]

Yay..?

[Zack]

Sorry, monstr. I get heated easily and will swear/rage/say things I don't mean. I said some things that were unfair to you and I apologize, I still like you too. :) I should have just waited a few hours so I could cool down.

Still don't plan on playing any more mafia in the foreseeable future, though. If I ever do it would be on a new account to get a fresh start, if that's allowed.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The important thing here is that everybody seems to agree that things got out of hand of their own volition.

Considering the ultimate end result of this game, I'm going to remove some of the more acrimonious content of this thread in the next 24 hours, and we'll then proceed from there in a meta sense.

Thank you everyone for your participation. Every single one of you has been a positive addition to this game and this forum. Sometimes stuff happens.

[GeneralHankerchief]

As an addendum, let's keep all postgame discussion related to this game specifically in this thread. Anything with a larger scope should go in the Gameroom Policy Discussion thread.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You may post again if you read the conditions at the bottom of this post carefully.

Alright, the game is going to be marked as a town victory, as the mafia team did concede. And well played to the town for crushing it.

There were some setup decisions that can be questioned, on my part, as well as the fact that I was rather liberal with what happens if you don't vote all round. At least it was in bold red in the OP. But, anything I did this game can easily be questioned, without complaint from me. Setup, host decisions, whatever you like. Aim was always to have a fun game, and the signup sheet does make mention of the fact that this game might have been a bad idea. (lol)

So, long story short on what went down-

Player who is in the unenviable position of being the last remaining scum had been dealing with a frustrating hand being dealt to his team, possible setup/balancing issues, and personal friction between himself and other players, being forced to carry on alone in a long endgame against a lot of townies who were clear.

In that position, he managed to destroy almost all the townies that were lock clear by one way or another, and did very well with his murder choices, imo.

He also had one power, the ability to scan for vanilla townies (and only vanilla townies- anything else would just show up as not vanilla townie, no additional info).

Setup was such that I felt town would have the biggest difficulty- most of their lynch votes wouldn't affect the outcome, putting most townies in a terrible individual position for affecting game outcome.

As you could see also, if they were not a cleared townie, by virtue of role or having been one of the only ones with a valid lynch vote on a scum, there was little defense.

Town should have in theory been in the worse position, thus, I made scum relatively un-powered, and gave town only a watcher and a n3 vigilante. But midday d1, everything started going wrong for the scum team. Town had managed to sniff them out, and they got taken out very quickly, leaving just one.

In a pretty frustrating position with little hope. But, instead of conceding, he carried on.

It's just that, he was already frustrated and stressed out, and he knew for a fact that Monstr was not a cop. Because he found him to be a vanilla townie with his power.

If you've ever been fakepeeked, as town or scum, and you know for a fact that it's a lie, it can cause you to lose your cool, even if you weren't already feeling under the gun. I myself have been in several games where people have done bad fakepeeks, ones I knew were lies, as town or scum, and the issue is, it's very difficult to convince people they're wrong. And it feels cheap. It's such a frustrating position to be in.

In any case, most of us have throughout the years gotten frustrated and broke the civility rules. I can say as a longtime friend and fellow player of Zack's, this was not his typical self. I must have played 100 games with him so far personally, it's just not his usual. And it was understandable from where I sat. But, other players felt frustrated, and having a moment of rage in a game doesn't feel right if you have to carry on alone, putting on a performance for people, if you're not having fun, and some of them aren't. Some things are more important than continuing play.

The rule number one is we're here to have fun. Once we're not, it's time to move on.

The mafia quicktopic and the dead quicktopic are not to be revealed, but you can paraphrase and summarize any thoughts you want to share from there which would not cause animosity between players.

The setup of the game was:

1 Mafia Vanilla cop
2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Watcher
1 Night Three Town vigilante
Rest were vanilla townies

Mafia got 2 extra kills as a result of non-voting. Because it risks a modkill, those slots could be considered clear, while the mafia team have to post. As such, they were given compensatory shots which were designed to help them keep up with the game which was already lopsided in town's favor. They could shoot the non-voters, or they could shoot the cleared townies, which would have made it more competitive, so that's what they decided.

I understand not everyone will like that decision, and I may never implement it in another game. However, there was an ambiguous dire result that was forewarned if people didn't place a valid vote, mentioned in the OP. As such, there's only so much grumbling you can have. (wink) I am kind of evil, ya know.

Here's what I would like:

1) Constructive criticism of the game setup or mechanics only, as I've already admitted (in the sign up title, even) that it probably wasn't a sound idea. I even called it bad.

2) Positive comments only about people's play.

3) Please don't discuss the interpersonal issues which led to the game ending. And please show respect, even if you felt animosity this game, which is atypical of the org, I swear to god.

4) You may post now if you can meet those conditions. It is post-game.

[Monstrdude]

2 more wolves, one is a wolf vig

Zack played really well

[Dp101]

I feel the overall setup is not inherently flawed. Town was lucky in that they both a. managed to get town as chancellor early and b. lynched mafia the first day, clearing a bunch of them, but if the chancellor was scum or we didn't hit mafia D1 the number of cleared town players drops dramatically and the game becomes a lot harder. I would be happy playing this setup again. Only real thing that I would maybe appreciate seeing changed is the requirement for the number of districts to be odd, given how often the vote tied it doesn't seem like having 4 districts would have made much of a difference.

[Monstrdude]

Zack was almost chancellor d1

If he had been this would have been a completely different game

[Monstrdude]

Maybe just the one more wolf, and make him a one shot or two shot vig

[Monstrdude]

I had a lot of fun with everyone too

I think I'm gonna stick around

[Monstrdude]

The thing is though only a certain amount of people would have ever had a chance to become chancellor in this game

Mafia is weird like that

[Renata]

For what it's worth, I thought Zack's push on Schema today was terrific, from my position over in the dead thread. I said it's the towniest I'd seen him all game. I was practically clapping at one post, it was so spot on.

I think town did a great job with its clears, even if maybe a little overstingy in a couple of cases. That's always a fun position to be in, as a townie.

I'm glad I made it all the way to night three. :p

Game setup -- yeah, another mafia would not have been bad, I think. I don't like the extra kills being awarded in the way that they punish those who are participating over those who aren't. I'm not sure I'd want to see that again. But you did warn us (I'd forgotten all about it).

The voting thing wound up being rather pro-town, I think? Though it might not always be. But like only three people had signed on to choxorn needing to die on day one (me, atheotes, Dp), one of those grudgingly (and Visor did also like the idea but voted for someone else), and he still died. I don't know if I could have gotten him lynched in the normal way. It's not something I'm particularly good at. Again, the good day one and the clear townies resulting from that played a big role in the whole representative thing not turning into a massive distrustful mess.

I feel like many of the possibilities of the voting system (campaigning, trying to represent your district properly, etc) fell by the wayside due to the circumstances and the lack of time for too many, but what can you do. I had fun.

[Renata]

Zack was almost chancellor d1

If he had been this would have been a completely different game

Good point. Thank you for being so very, very townie on day one, Cass.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@Jabbz
@Schema
@Fenn
@Monstrbro
@dicetosser1
@Cass_

I was pleasantly surprised by all of you. When we invite new people to the org, it's typically a crapshoot of folks who don't even bother to post.

On an unfamiliar forum with lots of people you didn't know, you showed up and all played very well. Many of you self-clearing, many of you finding scums, all of you interacting, giving reads, and being not a total dead zone where no one has a chance to read. You guys all have a lot to be proud of about your town game.

I really appreciate you coming and playing with us on the org. If you care to be mentioned for upcoming games in sign-ups, let us know. We'd all love it if you were to stick around.

[Fenn]

Honestly I thought I played terribly (the Montmorency tunnel...), but, I'd play again in upcoming games. Thanks for organizing this ATPG!

[Renata]

You got Dp101 over in the dead thread hoping and praying that Cass wouldn't kill you because he was so sure this was your town game. :)

[Askthepizzaguy]

Honestly I thought I played terribly (the Montmorency tunnel...), but, I'd play again in upcoming games. Thanks for organizing this ATPG!

That's the thing, you took over a spot in a bad position and a lot of people thought you were town.

You don't have to be the player on the team who is actually spiking the football after a touchdown to have been an integral part of that touchdown, so to speak.

In mafia, just being a widely townread townie is a huge help. it's like throwing a block or guarding the passer, or someone else who isn't on scoring duty, helping the team not lose by not being a mislynch is at least 50% of being a townie or better.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also, speaking from experience, Monty is virtually unreadable since his thinking process is so different.

That said, I have to believe I would have been town reading him this game. Every round he actually kept doing so many things that scums forget to do. Just showing up at the start of round with big analyses, doing all the tally stuff, being out there and controversial but not in a way that confuses the discussion or tries to seek power, I felt like he really hit his stride on being a townie here.

Might have been my easy perspective from above the clouds, but I would have had a hard time reading a lot of these townies as scums this game.

Cuth, on the other hand...

@Cuthillius

I love you, Cuth. But you remind me of me and my inability to self-clear these days. Hehehe.

[Riedquat]

Did I win?

Thanks for hosting Atpg, and really sorry to all for my lack of commitment!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Did I win?

Thanks for hosting Atpg, and really sorry to all for my lack of commitment!

Bah, your posts were as entertaining as ever to read.

[Winston Hughes]

Three-man team?

Mind blown.

Zack's wim was incredible.

To keep on battling, against those odds, under that pressure...

[Zack]

Should host a new game with different lynch mechanics. To vote to lynch someone, you have to use " Kiss: " instead of "Vote:" in bold pink.

Zack is totally a wolf. He did that thing where he claimed to wolfread his partner while consistently pushing everyone else except that partner. He is a scumbag of the highest order, and has left me no choice but to:

" Kiss: Zack

[Monstrdude]

Three-man team?

Mind blown.

Zack's wim was incredible.

To keep on battling, against those odds, under that pressure...

Seconded

I have been in that situation before. You almost always lose, and it always sucks

[Dp101]

I'd play that.

[Zack]

Three-man team?

Mind blown.

Zack's wim was incredible.

To keep on battling, against those odds, under that pressure...

I don't know if wim is the right term here. More like:

[Zack]

People were suspecting me for the wrong reasons, Winston. Am I supposed to just... let that slide?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'd play that because it's the most fun you can have.

Oh, except all those times I got mad about it. Those times sucked, but the other times when I was on fire it was pretty sweet. The other times, it was more like literally being on fire...

[Zack]

Oh, after finishing Cereal Killers on MU and seeing that setup, I felt great shame at all the complaining I did about this one. At least this one resembled mafia.

[Zack]

I'd play that.

I'd play that because it's the most fun you can have.

Oh, except all those times I got mad about it. Those times sucked, but the other times when I was on fire it was pretty sweet. The other times, it was more like literally being on fire...

I'll seriously open sign-ups for it right now if there's interest for it. I did enough to ruin the mood of this one, I want to host one where I can do the opposite.

@Jabbz

You too man. I'm not always a mean asshole like I was here, and you were 100% correct to call me out the way you did. Hopefully you can see my better side sometime.