Swords and Sorcery Mafia Without the Swords [Concluded]

[GeneralHankerchief]

Alright, a couple of thoughts.

First of all, that feel when your 2-person mason chat has more posts than every other QT combined.

Secondly, players. Renata was a fantastic partner and if we weren't mason'd together I'm sure that after the previous (offsite) game we played together we would have spent a disproportionate amount of time nitpicking every single word in each other's posts, so having that comfort that she was lock town right off the bat was huge. 10/10 would mason with again.
Visor, you mentioned me shading you for not being in-thread during that one morning and I'd like to apologize for that, it was pretty crappy reasoning on my part. But by that point half the town was clear for one reason or another, and a few more townies were also doing good work and you just... weren't. No hard feelings, man.
Monty - stuff like confidently declaring Visor was town after like one post of his on Page 1 is why I can never fully trust you.
Town was on fire this game. Quite possibly the most lopsided town victory in .Org history. Serious kudos to everyone who was a part of it. Singling anyone out (aside from Renata obviously) is really hard, but I'd have to agree with sentiment that Choxorn was devastatingly on-point this game, particularly with the Al Sipsclar vig - I could easily have seen him sneak through another round or two otherwise.
Commiserations to both flavors of our scum too - speaking from experience it sucks to be on the wrong side of a pounding, and you guys were still pretty game about it.

Thirdly, flavor. Excellent work in this department, Jabbz. Think I mentioned it in the mason QT but original universes and well-developed writeups will always have a special place in my heart.

Fourthly, I was going to put balance here but I've decided to make my thoughts on that a separate post.

[Jabbz]

I never did that :P

*Cough Cough Spoiled Immediately After Death Cough Cough*

[Jabbz]

Commune with the Dead, or Pathologist (3-1): Most townies were offered this spell, but I'm the only one who used it. BSmith and Choxorn also started with it. Definitely a specialist spell.

Vitality, or Tough Guy (2-3): Half the town was offered this one, but it's arguably the least-useful spell available. Why would anyone cast this when they could be doing anything else, or even nothing? It's only made possible by the ruleset prohibiting discussion after death. If it's going to exist, it might as well permit discussion for the rest of the game, if only as a novelty device. (Then El Barto would use it). Zack and atheotes started with this.

Vitality/toughguy has a couple of things that make it interesting. First it's a two day spell, so you cast it night one, and it provides protection through night one and night two. Second you know you've been hit, but you get to discuss your thoughts after being hit, and lets you participate through half of the day, in a position where town takes everything you say as coming from a town perspective. Plus its cheap as shit.

Basically I have this envisioned as a spell you might cast when you were worried about being targeted, but didn't have better options. Also, its REALLY cheap.

Grease, or Lynchproof (4-2): Many people hate this, and arguably it is a bit bastard. I'm not sure if it would be improved or made worse by having the runner-up lynched following its use. At least, it's use ought to carry heavy penalties beyond mana-cost. Pretty funny to allow Mafia to use it even though it has no effect on them. In combination with Stasis, a long and healthy game would not likely lose much by excluding it. No one in the game selected this, though atheotes and Csargo selected stasis.

I don't see it as being a bastard role. Some people just come across as scummy in their town games (guilty as shit here). This spell provides an opportunity to get out of that, at least once. By only giving it to town (scum couldn't use and it wasn't offered to SK) it provided a towny with an opportunity to stop one mislynch, and that I think is valuable. Plus, it's expensive which means there is a reasonable opportunity cost.

Veritas (5-2), the spell showing the number of corrupted on the lynchwagon, is usually not worth the cost compared to other spells that could take its place. It's unique virtue is that bypasses obfuscation of investigative roles. Very few were offered this, though Stasis, the other Tier-5 spell (see above), was offered to only atheotes and Csargo, and they both took it.

I was actually sad to see no one pick this spell. It's very powerful, but very situational. Picture someone having used that on day 1. They would have been told no scum were on the vote. That person just town cleared six people, five of whom lived through the night. That's over a third of the game. That was the same for both the other two votes. Since scum saw that spell as an option (scum saw every spell option except the unique SK spell, and the hunters retribution) I would have expected them to make sure at least one or two was always on the wagon. Now of course, should the wagon only be 4 ppl and 1 scum, it's less effective, or gods help you its a 7 person wagon with 2 scum, and you still have to sell your results. Still it has the potential to be a very powerful spell, and was largely responsible for a town win the last game I used this ability.

Speaking of the scan (Detect Corruption 4-1), it appeared a bit less than I expected (though everyone who was offered took it). Csargo, BSmith, and Zack had it, and used it up fairly quick. BSmith's only told because I communed with him, and Zack had the unusual virtue of multi-use. BTW Jabbz, looking at the spreadsheet Zack doesn't seem to be marked as having the scan, or really any spells other than Vitality. Is that an oversight?

No I mentioned that I erased the spells used by players as they went so I could keep an account of what spells they had left. You can see which abilities they used on the actions tab.

Another seeming error in the Spellbook, Choxorn is not listed as having Incineration (4-3), though he used it. Incineration was offered to me, Choxorn, and atheotes. Only Choxorn took it, and he used it well. This spell was well-balanced in the setup IMO.

[/quote]

Same as above.

One other thing worth mentioning in regards to Zack's spell choices. I had meant for players to be able to pick up to two versions of any spell tier 1-3, and only one each 4 and 5, but I forgot to mention that in the PM, so I let it slide when Zack wanted two cops. I would have probably drawn the line at someone wanting two incinerates, and definitely would have for two tier 5's. That restriction is definitely something I would impose on using this setup again.

[Jabbz]

Err, not one killl? I think you are forgetting about something here..

Apology accepted.

Town got lucky and played sharply. Scums got unlucky and played sub-sharply. Result: now my arse is sore and I'd like to go have a cry in the shower. GG next map.

As for Jabbz: 10/10 would play again.

Chronology matters my friend. You were unable to affect a kill "during the night". You killed yourself after the fact. Don't mess with my prose :P

[GeneralHankerchief]

Computer swallowed my balance post, here's a shorter version of it.

-----

Contrary to what I predicted earlier in mason chat, it *was* mostly threadwork and not night actions that decided the game. Due to this, it's hard to ascertain whether the game was truly balanced, though all in all if you throw aside the issues of momentum and mafia being hamstrung from early on, I think it was mostly a success on Jabbz's part.

That said.

I learned some time ago that in these types of games where there's a lot of night actions, town naturally gravitates towards pooling their information in order to get a better idea of what's going on. While I may bitch and moan about this because it's my M.O., there's nothing inherently wrong with this approach - townies are supposed to try to solve the game, and this is solving behavior. But it still needs to be accounted for in development, most notably by beefing the mafia up by a bit.

In general there are two successful solutions to this. The first one is to give the mafia cover so that they can't simply be caught by everyone adding their stories up. Double night actions, a way to blast through a protection circle, etc. Now, if they get tracked visiting a target who died, or if they get vigged or something, fair play, but otherwise measures need to be taken to allow the mafia to successfully blend in.

The second solution is related to that - while allowing the mafia to blend in, make sure they still have overall agency when it comes to night actions. I've learned the hard way that if the mafia frequently have to make a choice between blending in and doing nefarious things at night, it's not a good sign for balance. After all, when it comes down to it the day is the town's time, and the night is the mafia's time. Obviously give them a few obstacles, but don't close off half of the targets to them. Let them work towards accomplishing their objectives.

tl;dr of this section is that I think balance was adequate. Mafia still would have lost because town was on their game, but may have caused a few more casualties with a couple of tweaks.

--------

A second point I want to touch on is one of game pace.

This doesn't have to do with whether 48/24, 24/24, 36/12, etc. cycles are most appropriate. This is talking about keeping the number of players steadily dropping as the game progresses - i.e. I have a serious bone to pick with Stasis and Lynchproof abilities.

For those who played Capo IV back in the day, my stance on Lynchproof is well known - I think it's the single worst ability that can be assigned and it has no place in any mafia game in any capacity. Stasis isn't quite as bad, but the general intent is still the same: its goal is to thwart the will of the town and circumvent the lynch process. The day phase should always end with a lynch unless the majority of players vote otherwise - the lynch is the fundamental backbone upon which mafia games are built.

But beyond that, Lynchproof and Stasis are bad because they represent stagnation. It's 48 (or 36 or 24 or whatever) hours of discussion with no end result. More information is presumably gleaned from that time in the thread, but the overall game state is exactly where it started. Combine this with the high amount of protections, roleblocking, and jailkeeps that we saw and there was a legitimate chance of going six real-life days without a single change in the amount of living players. That's not ideal.

Obviously, if the mafia derp around and hit a protected target, or are successfully roleblocked once, that's fine. But if it becomes a pattern, then it's a problem. It factors into my "the mafia need to have overall agency when it comes to night actions" argument from earlier. The general cycle of things is kill(s) at night, lynch during the day. Disrupt or hold off that cycle for too long and things start to stagnate.

------

Again, just my 2 cents, overall the game was quite fun and generally well-balanced.

[Jabbz]

Yes, Wane was a silly idea and Manaburn on N2 was probably my worst possible option, but I do believe that I had a bodyguard spell as well as a doctor spell.

Wane is a modified treestump. It's a very situational role, but it has its uses. Like I said in a previous comment, I often come across in my town games as scummy, so I view the world of mafia in a very paranoid way. This spell would let someone who was going to be lynched on the morrow survive for two more days and contribute. Technically I offered this one to scum because it would have been freaking hilarious if they took it, but it was really offered to help a scummy looking towny not let town mislynch and still contribute.

[Jabbz]

First off, thanks for the game Jabbz. :) You wanted feedback on your hosting, and I have absolutely no complaints and would like to see you do it again.

As regards the setup: in general, (and though it didn't really come into play in this game) I have the belief that sky-high-information games like this are extremely hard on the scum. Not only do they have to carry out their evil deeds, they have to be able to dodge the town powers at least most of the time, and they have to be able to blend into the town when the claims inevitably come, without (too much) fear of immediate contradiction all the time. IMO the scum have to be absolutely stacked. Double actions, undetectable powers, godfather-like powers, anything and everything to make it so that a town trying to brute force the game is going to run into trouble. And there should further be a pool of vanillas with known and to some extent fake-able actions that scum can try to blend into. That's just my general feeling; whether or not your game has done enough in this regard is not something I'm really qualified to judge. I'll leave it to others.

I did feel there may be too much protection and too much roleblocking on the town side.

I agree with you on the roleblocking/jb. I talked about it with Dp I think it was, and in the future when I run this (it will be run as an open setup) I'll have warp be a tier 3 + spell. So tier 3, but costs the same as a tier 4. Allows multiple uses, but at a high cost. Silence I think was ok where it was at.

[Jabbz]

Oh god Chox I'm so sorry for forgetting you, guess I must have tried to purge that D1 from my memory. Only balance thing I can think of is manybe make godfather last 2 nights, given that the usage of it has to line up exactly with a scan it feels like currently the majority of the time it gets wasted.

That's not a bad idea given the cost actually, especially with the fact that you cannot use any other spells the first night.

[Winston Hughes]

I don't see it as being a bastard role. Some people just come across as scummy in their town games (guilty as shit here). This spell provides an opportunity to get out of that, at least once. By only giving it to town (scum couldn't use and it wasn't offered to SK) it provided a towny with an opportunity to stop one mislynch, and that I think is valuable. Plus, it's expensive which means there is a reasonable opportunity cost.

For me, the lynch is sacred.

Unless it's a game built around unusual lynch mechanics, it should be as straightforward as 'player with the most votes is killed'.

The only case where I don't mind seeing roles/powers have an impact is when votes end up tied.

[Jabbz]

Computer swallowed my balance post, here's a shorter version of it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

-----

Contrary to what I predicted earlier in mason chat, it *was* mostly threadwork and not night actions that decided the game. Due to this, it's hard to ascertain whether the game was truly balanced, though all in all if you throw aside the issues of momentum and mafia being hamstrung from early on, I think it was mostly a success on Jabbz's part.

That said.

I learned some time ago that in these types of games where there's a lot of night actions, town naturally gravitates towards pooling their information in order to get a better idea of what's going on. While I may bitch and moan about this because it's my M.O., there's nothing inherently wrong with this approach - townies are supposed to try to solve the game, and this is solving behavior. But it still needs to be accounted for in development, most notably by beefing the mafia up by a bit.

In general there are two successful solutions to this. The first one is to give the mafia cover so that they can't simply be caught by everyone adding their stories up. Double night actions, a way to blast through a protection circle, etc. Now, if they get tracked visiting a target who died, or if they get vigged or something, fair play, but otherwise measures need to be taken to allow the mafia to successfully blend in.

The second solution is related to that - while allowing the mafia to blend in, make sure they still have overall agency when it comes to night actions. I've learned the hard way that if the mafia frequently have to make a choice between blending in and doing nefarious things at night, it's not a good sign for balance. After all, when it comes down to it the day is the town's time, and the night is the mafia's time. Obviously give them a few obstacles, but don't close off half of the targets to them. Let them work towards accomplishing their objectives.

tl;dr of this section is that I think balance was adequate. Mafia still would have lost because town was on their game, but may have caused a few more casualties with a couple of tweaks.

--------

A second point I want to touch on is one of game pace.

This doesn't have to do with whether 48/24, 24/24, 36/12, etc. cycles are most appropriate. This is talking about keeping the number of players steadily dropping as the game progresses - i.e. I have a serious bone to pick with Stasis and Lynchproof abilities.

For those who played Capo IV back in the day, my stance on Lynchproof is well known - I think it's the single worst ability that can be assigned and it has no place in any mafia game in any capacity. Stasis isn't quite as bad, but the general intent is still the same: its goal is to thwart the will of the town and circumvent the lynch process. The day phase should always end with a lynch unless the majority of players vote otherwise - the lynch is the fundamental backbone upon which mafia games are built.

But beyond that, Lynchproof and Stasis are bad because they represent stagnation. It's 48 (or 36 or 24 or whatever) hours of discussion with no end result. More information is presumably gleaned from that time in the thread, but the overall game state is exactly where it started. Combine this with the high amount of protections, roleblocking, and jailkeeps that we saw and there was a legitimate chance of going six real-life days without a single change in the amount of living players. That's not ideal.

Obviously, if the mafia derp around and hit a protected target, or are successfully roleblocked once, that's fine. But if it becomes a pattern, then it's a problem. It factors into my "the mafia need to have overall agency when it comes to night actions" argument from earlier. The general cycle of things is kill(s) at night, lynch during the day. Disrupt or hold off that cycle for too long and things start to stagnate.

------

Again, just my 2 cents, overall the game was quite fun and generally well-balanced.

No, I think that's valid, and not something I was thinking about when I assigned the power. I'll have to put some thoughts into that as I'm not sure its quite as gloom and doom as you make it out to be, but its definitely worth analyzing for the future.

[Jabbz]

Also, because no one addressed it and I wanted to get a reaction: What do you guys think about me hosting a bastard setup? I'd be willing to have a third party you guys would accept verify its not some horrid game that towns going to hate and only I'm going to enjoy, as I'm pretty sure I'd pass that muster. I'll lie to you guys, but you will have fun anyway :P

[Renata]

As regards the Stasis spell, I was recently part of a mash on MU in which my mafia team had one player with the ability to end the day early. There was a certain window by which the player would have to submit the ability, and then it would kick in 30 min prior to end of day. I don't know how you'd implement it in a game like this if it's even possible non-automated, but I liked it. Good way to give the mafia a lynch-affecting power without actually denying a lynch.

[GeneralHankerchief]

FWIW, here is the start of a large, fairly in-depth argument we had about Lynchproof after Capo IV in 2011. You'll be able to get most of what was going on from context, but a quick summary is that before I transitioned from a player to a fill-in cohost, Askthepizzaguy had received the most votes two times in a row but survived each time due to protection from another player's (DaveShack's) role.

-edit- khaan's post 4918 is where the argument really kicks into gear.

[Renata]

Also, because no one addressed it and I wanted to get a reaction: What do you guys think about me hosting a bastard setup? I'd be willing to have a third party you guys would accept verify its not some horrid game that towns going to hate and only I'm going to enjoy, as I'm pretty sure I'd pass that muster. I'll lie to you guys, but you will have fun anyway :P

Bastard games can be fun once in a while. In theory, I approve.

[Winston Hughes]

Bastard games can be fun once in a while. In theory, I approve.

Aye, if RL permits, I'll be interested.

[Zack]

Hell I've made a series out of bastard games.

[Montmorency]

I don't fully agree on Mafia agency, and in fact I think that if it should be compensated for the way to do it is to permit direct private comms. I know Capo IV gave you an abiding hatred of night networks and consolidation, but I don't think it's usually detrimental for both night and the day to be both the Town's and the Mafia's - in parallel.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I don't fully agree on Mafia agency, and in fact I think that if it should be compensated for the way to do it is to permit direct private comms. I know Capo IV gave you an abiding hatred of night networks and consolidation, but I don't think it's usually detrimental for both night and the day to be both the Town's and the Mafia's - in parallel.

Oh, I hated networking long before Capo IV, my friend.

But I think we disagree on the larger point: In my estimation, in the flow of things, the night largely belongs to the mafia, and the day largely to the town. If you want to adjust the balance in either direction, the other side needs to be compensated.

[Montmorency]

Oh, I hated networking long before Capo IV, my friend.

But I think we disagree on the larger point: In my estimation, in the flow of things, the night largely belongs to the mafia, and the day largely to the town. If you want to adjust the balance in either direction, the other side needs to be compensated.

I think only the vanilla game embodies this, and power roles immediately begin to dilute the separation. My position is that if there are to be power roles in a setup, the shifted dynamic could be treated not merely as a complication but as an entire mode of play.

Balance is, does this gun offer consistent advantage over other guns, mode is deathmatch to capture the flag.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I think only the vanilla game embodies this, and power roles immediately begin to dilute the separation. My position is that if there are to be power roles in a setup, the shifted dynamic could be treated not merely as a complication but as an entire mode of play.

Balance is, does this gun offer consistent advantage over other guns, mode is deathmatch to capture the flag.

You know this isn't going to hold water with me specifically. I treat all mafia games as an extension of vanilla. If properly balanced, the separation still holds.

[Jabbz]

I'll be honest, when it comes to ideas of agency I'm more inclined to agree with Monty, that powers skew that dynamic significantly. What I find far more persuasive is the demoralizing effect no lynch after a 48h buildup could cause.

[Jabbz]

BTW GHC, when are we expecting your game to fire off?

[GeneralHankerchief]

BTW GHC, when are we expecting your game to fire off?

GH man, GH. None of this GHC stuff.

Anyway, target start date is February 28th. Don't want to run it before then because El Barto won't be around, but don't want to run it too much after because then there'd be too much of a gap and it runs the risk of it coming too close to when I leave the country for a week in April. Currently asking Barto for more info on his exact availability.

It's ready to go though and I'll probably post sign-ups in a few days regardless.

[Jabbz]

TBH I only still call you GHC to rile you up :P

I probably shouldn't play this next round if it's starting that early. I day my comps the 6th, 8th, and 10th, then start my thesis on the 11th. Already behind the ball if I want to graduate on time so yeah, I REALLY need to pass my comps first time around.

[seireikhaan]

So I got pinged to check in on this game, and.... dang. Was intending to stay off mafia for a bit until GH's game, but I wish I'd signed up. This game looked like a blast. Put me down for an invite if you host any others, Jabbz.

[Arakhor]

In retrospect, I should have taken Veritas (and I could have afforded it fairly easily too), but I was expecting lots of small votes and scum spread between them, which would make for an ineffective result. The two votes we did have, however, were almost made for such a spell.

[Monstrdude]

slot 12 would have been scum if I was playing

didn't really read other than flips but town appears to have crushed it so congratulations are in order

[Zack]

Zack's Zack -- I thought we were toast.

[Renata]

You must admit my history of reading you is not the best.

[Choxorn]

Hell I've made a series out of bastard games.

Oh come on, not all the Zack Mafia games are bastard.

Thanks for the MVP votes, everyone.

I was among the many who came to view Lynchproof as a bastard role in Capo IV, though Capo IV's version of it was especially bastard, a role that could offer unlimited lynch protection to other roles without even revealing itself is the source of the lynch protection. It was also a really complicated game with lots of night actions where townies could potentially defect and form their own scumteams, as happened with the Lynch-Overriding Lawyer DaveShack and his teammate Askthepizzaguy. So Pizza got lynched twice, and it did nothing both times, and nobody had any way of knowing that we had to kill DaveShack first until it was too late to stop them. It was generally just really, really bastard. Lynch-proofing is a bit less bastard if it's a one-off or has other limits, but something like what Capo IV is an absolute bastard role.

The only other comparably bastard lynch-proofing I've seen was Camikaze's LOTR game way back, where some of the scums were immune to death until other scums had been killed first, but at least when sprig got lynched and showed his immunity the first time, he lost his own lynch vote and was publicly revealed as Sauron. Then someone else on the secondary scum-team was lynched out of order, and we didn't get to know why other than they just couldn't be lynched, no reveal of why or even taking his vote away the way that happened to sprig.