Swords and Sorcery Mafia Without the Swords [Concluded]

[Montmorency]

Zack and Winston let GH, Renata, and I take up the brunt of the work after D1, and admittedly I at times was unnerved by their aloofness.


The scum definitely had some strong powers:

0 - 2 (2) Empower Cast in conjunction with other spells to allow the targets spell to penetrate protective magics. (Strongarm)
0 - 3 (2) Ventriloquism Cast in conjunction with other spells, this allows the targets spell to appear to come from nowhere, making it impossible to track the spells source. (Partial Ninja)
"0 - 4
" (2) Static Field Cast in conjunction with other spells, this prevents the target's spell from being traced to its destination. (Partial Ninja)
"0 - 5
" (2) See Invisible Cast in conjunction with other spells, this allows the targets spell to find those who are invisible. (Unique Role)
0 - 6 (6) Mask of Mirrors This spell makes the caster appears to be the exact same alignment as any mages scanning them. (Godfather)

Those could have broken any town protective or investigative ability, if used well. On the other hand, after going down to a single member after the first night, that was no longer possible. But beginning with the assumption that such catastrophe would not befall the scum, limiting their individual mana-pools to 14 (I had 14 mana in fact) was correct for balance.

[Zack]

Of course the dead QT still has people listing me as their first choice for scum.

[Zack]

Thanks for hosting Jabbz.

Zack and Winston let GH, Renata, and I take up the brunt of the work after D1, and admittedly I at times was unnerved by their aloofness.

I was fairly busy with other stuff and the situation seemed well in hand. Surprised to see I had the second-most posts in the game.

[Montmorency]

Of course the dead QT still has people listing me as their first choice for scum.

Maybe it's because you insisted on voting without a "Vote:" tag. That's pretty evil.

[Dp101]

Of course the dead QT still has people listing me as their first choice for scum.

I never did that :P

[atheotes]

Well played town!
Thanks for hosting Jabbz. flavor and set up were very good.
W/W wagons d1 killed it for the scum.

[atheotes]

Of course the dead QT still has people listing me as their first choice for scum.

that was because of BSmith claiming something...
iirc, i was town reading you while alive and scum reading Winston partly because of his shade on you.

[Montmorency]

I never did that :P

Atheotes and BSmith did, as townie dead.


GH (in the QT), why so much tinfoil about me being a liar? If I claim I won't do something at night, then I'm not doing it. If I claim I will do something from a set of options, then at most I will go a bit lateral.

I only outright lie when I'm third party (or Mafia, I guess), and even then it's usually only a specific small thing (i.e. town victory is not exclusive to my win conditions ).

Even when I was outright serial killer, I barely even hid the fact, went on to kill last Mafia, and begged townies to spare me at LYLO for my good works. My most established meta is my pro-town bias.

[atheotes]

Monty, i did not think you were a novice mage. I had 19 mana

[Lewwyn]

Heh, Glad that ended before it got drug out.

GG everybody. I think townies just looked really townie this game. No mislynches! 2 Double scum wagons!

[Montmorency]

Commune with the Dead, or Pathologist (3-1): Most townies were offered this spell, but I'm the only one who used it. BSmith and Choxorn also started with it. Definitely a specialist spell.

Vitality, or Tough Guy (2-3): Half the town was offered this one, but it's arguably the least-useful spell available. Why would anyone cast this when they could be doing anything else, or even nothing? It's only made possible by the ruleset prohibiting discussion after death. If it's going to exist, it might as well permit discussion for the rest of the game, if only as a novelty device. (Then El Barto would use it). Zack and atheotes started with this.

Grease, or Lynchproof (4-2): Many people hate this, and arguably it is a bit bastard. I'm not sure if it would be improved or made worse by having the runner-up lynched following its use. At least, it's use ought to carry heavy penalties beyond mana-cost. Pretty funny to allow Mafia to use it even though it has no effect on them. In combination with Stasis, a long and healthy game would not likely lose much by excluding it. No one in the game selected this, though atheotes and Csargo selected stasis.

Veritas (5-2), the spell showing the number of corrupted on the lynchwagon, is usually not worth the cost compared to other spells that could take its place. It's unique virtue is that bypasses obfuscation of investigative roles. Very few were offered this, though Stasis, the other Tier-5 spell (see above), was offered to only atheotes and Csargo, and they both took it.

Speaking of the scan (Detect Corruption 4-1), it appeared a bit less than I expected (though everyone who was offered took it). Csargo, BSmith, and Zack had it, and used it up fairly quick. BSmith's only told because I communed with him, and Zack had the unusual virtue of multi-use. BTW Jabbz, looking at the spreadsheet Zack doesn't seem to be marked as having the scan, or really any spells other than Vitality. Is that an oversight?

Another seeming error in the Spellbook, Choxorn is not listed as having Incineration (4-3), though he used it. Incineration was offered to me, Choxorn, and atheotes. Only Choxorn took it, and he used it well. This spell was well-balanced in the setup IMO.

[atheotes]

Vitality, or Tough Guy (2-3): Half the town was offered this one, but it's arguably the least-useful spell available. Why would anyone cast this when they could be doing anything else, or even nothing? It's only made possible by the ruleset prohibiting discussion after death. If it's going to exist, it might as well permit discussion for the rest of the game, if only as a novelty device. (Then El Barto would use it). Zack and atheotes started with this.

Grease, or Lynchproof (4-2): Many people hate this, and arguably it is a bit bastard. I'm not sure if it would be improved or made worse by having the runner-up lynched following its use. At least, it's use ought to carry heavy penalties beyond mana-cost. Pretty funny to allow Mafia to use it even though it has no effect on them. In combination with Stasis, a long and healthy game would not likely lose much by excluding it. No one in the game selected this, though atheotes and Csargo selected stasis.

.

i picked vitality bcos there was nothing else to pick.
I was late for d1 and had to kind of rush to choose and picked the stasis thinking it will prevent night kills. yes. it says moon rise, governor etc. still my brain only registered high tier, town ability and my own high mana (based on tier 1 track,watch etc. and tier 3 doc)

[Arakhor]

Well, that was interesting. There were a lot of jailkeeper/blocking abilities in the game.

I thought I was doing well to have 19 mana at start of play, but of course I only got to cast two spells, one of which I misdirected on Atheotes.

[Choxorn]

Actually, WP does not do that town justice. Everyone that was part of the town played amazingly. GH terrified me, Renata was great too, Monty was also amazing, Lew and Zack too, and I'm sure I'm forgetting more names.

Not naming me among the townies who played well, after I spent the first day and night leading a wagon on you and vigging Al Sips? I am disappoint.

In an interesting parallelism, here Sooh was a lone SK hoping to turn the death of the Mafia to her advantage,

I've usually found that Serial Killer is actually harder if the Mafia all go down early- it's to your advantage if both sides (or all sides, if there's more than you, the town, and the mafia) are kept in relatively equal balance, then you can slip under the radar more easily because they're all too focused on each other.

Veritas (5-2), the spell showing the number of corrupted on the lynchwagon, is usually not worth the cost compared to other spells that could take its place. It's unique virtue is that bypasses obfuscation of investigative roles. Very few were offered this, though Stasis, the other Tier-5 spell (see above), was offered to only atheotes and Csargo, and they both took it.

The way I figured it was, with my 14 mana available, I could take Veritas, or I could take Commune with Dead and Incineration, and those two combined looked way more valuable than Veritas was on its own. I also couldn't take both Incineration and Veritas, and I really wanted my Vigilante Spell. Considering how we barely needed investigative roles to catch all the scums but Incineration was put to great use on night 1, I think I'm satisfied with my choice.

[Montmorency]

Well, that was interesting. There were a lot of jailkeeper/blocking abilities in the game.

I thought I was doing well to have 19 mana at start of play, but of course I only got to cast two spells, one of which I misdirected on Atheotes.

Speaking of the manaburn, most people were offered but (other than automatically for the masons) only Arakhorn and Lewwyn took it.

Arakhor, according to the spreadsheet you took Manaburn x2, Watch x2, Redirect, Wane (like Tough Guy, with the all-game component I suggested - seriously screw this thing), Judge, Doctor, not taking Veritas or Bodyguard.

The mana costs for spells other than manaburn would be 2x1, 2, 2, 4, 4 = 14, leaving 4 (5) points between the mana burns. I think bodyguard is better to take, and you could have anyway within your limit. I figure, you can save bodyguard for last when you don't have the mana to survive anyway.

Manaburn is only useful towards late-game, and at that point there aren't many situations wherein you have no more spells you want to cast, yet plenty of mana to burn just to inconvenience another player. Might be better off replaced with some form of mana-suck spell that transfers mana to the caster.

Not naming me among the townies who played well, after I spent the first day and night leading a wagon on you and vigging Al Sips? I am disappoint.

I've usually found that Serial Killer is actually harder if the Mafia all go down early- it's to your advantage if both sides (or all sides, if there's more than you, the town, and the mafia) are kept in relatively equal balance, then you can slip under the radar more easily because they're all too focused on each other.

Yeah, Choxorn played well.

I mean that Sooh in this case tried to take advantage of the circumstances - it's not like she had any choice if she wanted to live, at any rate.

You could really see the (albeit evil) desire and frustration showing through in this comment:

What? Did you think that top 2 trains on D1 and D2 were all 4 scum? Seriously? You're good, but you're not that good.

Note the use of "you" rather than "we".

And it fit her role flavor!


EDIT: Since Sooh's character survived, maybe Jabbz can do a recurring series around her a la The Frenchman.

[Sooh]

In an interesting parallelism, here Sooh was a lone SK hoping to turn the death of the Mafia to her advantage, whereas in the 2012 game Pizza had been scum who didn't know his partners, who could only rejoin his team after establishing contact. And that he did, using his prior infiltration of my inner circle to dominate all parts of the game. So in defeating Sooh I take vicarious victory over Pizza?

So the worm has finally turned. My vengeance is complete. Feels good.

This may come as a surprise to you, but I am not Pizza. Pizza is not me. Your vengeance is incomplete.


Also I'm sad, because I had good spells to use, but you people didn't want to listen when I said to lynch Snerk.

Seriously, I blocked the man two nights in a row (sorta), and still you lynch me! (I don't want to hear anything about my murders of the innocent. That was just an unfortunate side effect)

[Sooh]

Note the use of "you" rather than "we".

FTR, I would probably have used that if I had been town as well, since I was basically inactive for large portions of the game and didn't feel like I was involved in rounding people up.

[Choxorn]

Technically, we did lynch Snerk, and you helped point us in that direction.

We just lynched him after you.

[Snerk]

Despite his desperate attempts during the night, Snerk is unable to accomplish even one killing.

Err, not one killl? I think you are forgetting about something here..

Snerk has lynched himself. He was a

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Corrupted Mage

Apology accepted.

Town got lucky and played sharply. Scums got unlucky and played sub-sharply. Result: now my arse is sore and I'd like to go have a cry in the shower. GG next map.

As for Jabbz: 10/10 would play again.

[Winston Hughes]

Thanks Jabbz. Fun game, well hosted.

This was a very much a team win, and all town shares the glory.

That said, chox is mvp for the shot and for generally being on the right side of everything.

Renata/GH as masons is op and should be banned.

Commiserations to scum and Sooh. That was a freak D1/N1 by any standards.

Zack and Winston let GH, Renata, and I take up the brunt of the work after D1

Not that it was necessary in the end, but I put in a lot more work reading and analysing the thread than appeared on the surface. If I was going to get to use 'Retribution', I was damned sure I wasn't going to be hitting town with it.

A neat side effect is that, while I did very little to affect the course of the game, I ended up having never pointed my vote at a townie. Four days, four votes, four scum.

[Sooh]

10/10 will kick Snerk's butt again!

[Winston Hughes]

BLLEaAAaaAaSSsSEe

This got lols every time I scrolled past it.

The whole sequence was brilliant, but I'm a sucker for the big ham.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Oh, sweet!

GG everybody and thanks for hosting Jabbz! I'll have more to say in a couple hours.

[Renata]

Funnily enough, part way through day one I was thinking town was in it to lose this game; I'm pretty sure I said so in the mason chat. So many people were playing low impact or absent, Winston was playing deliberately scummy, Zack's Zack -- I thought we were toast. And then a ridiculous proportion of the low impact players actually were mafia (and SK). So it worked out amazingly. I've never played in a game quite like this one.

Being masons with GH was an absolute blast, and I loved it. Mason is almost my favorite role to begin with (after vig!), and then to get it with someone I've played with a bunch recently and who is such a good player was a privilege.

Kudos to everyone who pushed the Dp wagon end of day one; I think that's what really did the damage and turned what would probably still have been a win into a steamroller. Team instincts were so good this game for the town. And I'm so happy at all the activity around end of day one! That was so great.

I have some minor things to muse on about the setup later (it's not really my specialty).

[Winston Hughes]

Winston was playing deliberately scummy

On D1, I was trying to walk the line between townie enough to be killed by scum and scummy enough to be killed by town. Given that it drew two alignment scans, I guess I waxed too scummy.

From morning D2, otoh, I was trying to get scum to target me, which meant hamming up the scummy to make it look like I didn't want to be targeted, whilst also laying hints about being a special role.

[Arakhor]

Yes, Wane was a silly idea and Manaburn on N2 was probably my worst possible option, but I do believe that I had a bodyguard spell as well as a doctor spell.

[Renata]

First off, thanks for the game Jabbz. :) You wanted feedback on your hosting, and I have absolutely no complaints and would like to see you do it again.

As regards the setup: in general, (and though it didn't really come into play in this game) I have the belief that sky-high-information games like this are extremely hard on the scum. Not only do they have to carry out their evil deeds, they have to be able to dodge the town powers at least most of the time, and they have to be able to blend into the town when the claims inevitably come, without (too much) fear of immediate contradiction all the time. IMO the scum have to be absolutely stacked. Double actions, undetectable powers, godfather-like powers, anything and everything to make it so that a town trying to brute force the game is going to run into trouble. And there should further be a pool of vanillas with known and to some extent fake-able actions that scum can try to blend into. That's just my general feeling; whether or not your game has done enough in this regard is not something I'm really qualified to judge. I'll leave it to others.

I did feel there may be too much protection and too much roleblocking on the town side.

[Montmorency]

As far as information goes, scans weren't an issue. Maybe you could argue against tracks and watches (mostly watches this game) being thrown around willy nilly, but otherwise this game was high-information because we had the momentum to lay it all out in-thread. This game was a rare case that can't fundamentally be accounted for in the setup without just making a different setup, probably with far less role action. Role madness games definitely have more capacity to skew towards one side early than more vanilla setups.

The scum did indeed have support abilities to interfere with scans and even protections, but obviously it works better the more scum there are. Consider that with 11 town, 4 scum, and 1 SK, without scum dying at night, and one scum kill blocked each night, town can only mislynch around 2 times, or mislynch 2 times with 2 kills per night including one mafia, which isn't unfair to scum.

Too much blocking? It was probably intended to prevent a bloodbath ending within 4 rounds. At least, jailkeep should be less common than plain roleblock.

[Winston Hughes]

In no particular order...

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[Dp101]

Oh god Chox I'm so sorry for forgetting you, guess I must have tried to purge that D1 from my memory. Only balance thing I can think of is manybe make godfather last 2 nights, given that the usage of it has to line up exactly with a scan it feels like currently the majority of the time it gets wasted.