Concerning Dyslexia

[Beskar]

"people who simply are too lazy to check the validity of sources and pigeon-hole themselves in the conservative bubbles such as FOX news, reading only the headlines which makes them 'stupid'. "

I mean, all dyslectics are just lazy people who should just sit their behinds down and study, right?

Sure, and black-people can just use skin-whitening creams.

False equivalence.

Doing a stupid action and being called 'stupid for it' is different to an impairment or being fundamentally stupid. There is no hypocrisy in the slightest.

[HoreTore]

Sure, and black-people can just use skin-whitening creams.

False equivalence.

Doing a stupid action and being called 'stupid for it' is different to an impairment or being fundamentally stupid. There is no hypocrisy in the slightest.

Ah, yes... It's stupid to write words incorrectly, so anyone who writes words incorrectly are stupid.

It's fun to just stay at the surface instead of making an attempt of figuring out why people do the things they do, isn't it? Mix in a taste of elitism and namecalling, and you have a meal worthy of a king!

[TinCow]

Doing a stupid action and being called 'stupid for it' is different to an impairment or being fundamentally stupid. There is no hypocrisy in the slightest.

Indeed. Some of the stupidest people I have met have been highly intelligent.

[Furunculus]

good debate horetore, controversially put but then the subject is sensitive.

speaking personally, i struggle with abstract numbers, though nothing so serious as requires a clinical diagnosis.

a good friend has mild dsylexia, and he is remarkably capable in his training as a biologist, a skydiver, a diver, a marksman, a pyrotechnics expert, and a professional cameraman.

i would never consider him dumb, but i accept the general term of the argument presented by hore, i.e. it meets the definition of reduced capability, albeit in a unhelpfully narrow definition of total ability.

[The Stranger]

Sure, and black-people can just use skin-whitening creams.

False equivalence.

Doing a stupid action and being called 'stupid for it' is different to an impairment or being fundamentally stupid. There is no hypocrisy in the slightest.

I don't understand why you get all upset by this poor (in both senses of the word) attempt at trolling by HoreTore. His assumtion that everyone, or society (whoever that may be), does not accept it that some people have trouble with performing certain tasks or solving certain problems due to (cognitive) disabilities is just false.

Also the supposed hypocricy he is talking about, which he derives from a thread about voting is also based on a wrong analogy. A more logical analogy would be the following, and I'm not saying I agree, but setting aside the notion of being stupid for a second here, if you know someone has the disability to write properly you do not ask him to write a long and complicated story on paper. If you know that someone has the disability to understand politics you should not ask him to give his opinion about politics...

If anything this thread should be about education, do we really need to require of people to know the basics all these things we now ask them to know the basics off. And perhaps within the education system dyslexia has been getting more attention than other disabilities, but not to the extent and nature that Horetore has been stating.

[Montmorency]

It's fun to just stay at the surface instead of making an attempt of figuring out why people do the things they do, isn't it? Mix in a taste of elitism and namecalling, and you have a meal worthy of a king!

My words exactly.

[Beskar]

Indeed. Some of the stupidest people I have met have been highly intelligent.

I agree. I have done 'stupid' acts myself!

It's fun to just stay at the surface instead of making an attempt of figuring out why people do the things they do, isn't it?

Sure, but the reason they do it is from group-polarisation effect, where values they hold find themselves aligned to a certain direction then skewed significantly due to the extremist elements. This 'risky-shift' in turn, makes their own opinion more extreme and through the 'Groupthink' effect and social categorization. There is a desire to maintain group-membership and when countered by conflicting information (which is then dismissed by Fox or by one of Fox's evil out-groups) they tend to alienate themselves from it, resulting in the hypothetical conservative bubble as shown by research in similar situations that people within these environments tend foster simplistic perceptions and more positive self-references/reinforcement.

The solution to this is actually to keep your mind fresh with other alternative sources, which allows people to form more independent and group irrelevant positions, without falling victim to these phenomena.

[Husar]

It's fun to just stay at the surface instead of making an attempt of figuring out why people do the things they do, isn't it? Mix in a taste of elitism and namecalling, and you have a meal worthy of a king!

I told you he is on a communist lefty rant trying to prove that no person is responsible for their actions and everything we do is somehow decided by outside factors which is why we should make everyone equal. Everybody who agrees with him might as well kiss a picture of Stalin!

[HopAlongBunny]

I think he's getting at more the social construction of definitions and labeling. We make the slots and grossly simplify our relations/perceptions of people based on placement in those slots.

"It's fun to just stay at the surface" says it all really.

[HoreTore]

good debate horetore, controversially put but then the subject is sensitive.

speaking personally, i struggle with abstract numbers, though nothing so serious as requires a clinical diagnosis.

We all have areas with reduced ability to learn. For me, I guess it would be visualization. That doesn't make the entire human population "dumb" though, and I reject the notion that some people are "dumb" because of X. The kid in my class who struggle with the nuances of public debate isn't dumb, the dyslectic kid isn't dumb, and the kid who can't read a graph isn't dumb.

The kids who have a fancy name for their inability learn are treated differently from those who are not, however. That rubs me the wrong way. The dyslectic kid is rarely made fun of. The girl who can't understand politics is fair game, however.

I have a brilliant quote from the first day of my second practice period:

We were doing a "mathathlon" to practice doing calculations without writing. The students were divided into teams. Each team got a bunch of papernotes with a math problem on it. The student was then supposed to solve the problem, and run to a sheet with different answer on it, place the paper with the problem on the correct answer, then run back and the next student does the same. Anyway, it was the turn of a boy who wasn't good at maths. He oicked up the note, and then just stood there looking at the paper. Soon, the girl behind him began helping him, while two other boys started snickering. How did the girl respond? She turned around, and said in a very assertive voice:

"Everyone has a problem with something, this is his problem, mind your own business!"

Now, if the world could only be like that 13-year old girl....

[Beskar]

The kids who have a fancy name for their inability learn are treated differently from those who are not, however. That rubs me the wrong way. The dyslectic kid is rarely made fun of. The girl who can't understand politics is fair game, however.

Nonsense.

No child actually cares about politics so it would never even be brought up (infact, knowing about it makes you 'pathetic'), and those with dyslexia and other disabilities are relentlessly ridiculed and it is not just some 'fancy name'.

[HoreTore]

No child actually cares about politics so it would never even be brought up

That couldn't be more wrong, so I think I'm finished with this particular part of the discussion.

[Beskar]

That couldn't be more wrong, so I think I'm finished with this particular part of the discussion.

Citing personal experience and that of my family members (nephews and nieces) who are at different stages of the school system. Greatest one being my 14 year old nephew looking at me as if I just got dropped off from another planet by even mentioning the word. I am fairly safe in assuming there has been no significant changes. Might be different in the utopia of Norway where no discrimination exists, but that is the reality here.

[Kival]

I told you he is on a communist lefty rant trying to prove that no person is responsible for their actions and everything we do is somehow decided by outside factors which is why we should make everyone equal. Everybody who agrees with him might as well kiss a picture of Stalin!

Are you trying to replicate HoreTores "poor attempt at trolling"?

[Strike For The South]

I managed to get into grad school and apparently have had dyslexia and ADD my whole life

My parents were neglectful

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Dyslexia" is a misnomer, it implies the person has a problem learning language - they don't, they have a problem learning to write.

By contrast, if someone has a problem understanding politics they have a problem understanding human interactions.

In the previous thread someone said Dyslexics have trouble learning languages, but that's not true either, they just have trouble learning to write them.

[Husar]

Are you trying to replicate HoreTores "poor attempt at trolling"?

It's not necessary to troll him, he has obviously given up debating me anyway.
That the Stalin thing was a joke should've been obvious after I put a joke into almost all my posts here.

[HoreTore]

It's not necessary to troll him, he has obviously given up debating me anyway.
That the Stalin thing was a joke should've been obvious after I put a joke into almost all my posts here.

No worries Husar, your posting is much appreciated

[Kival]

In the previous thread someone said Dyslexics have trouble learning languages, but that's not true either, they just have trouble learning to write them.

Just to clear it up: I didn't say that. I only said, that I know one person with Dylexia who also has problems learning languages and I wasn't claming this to be a general link. At least I hope, I didn't claim that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Just to clear it up: I didn't say that. I only said, that I know one person with Dylexia who also has problems learning languages and I wasn't claming this to be a general link. At least I hope, I didn't claim that.

You did imply that - but I won't hold it against you.

[Kival]

You did imply that - but I won't hold it against you.

Oh, yes, I meant to imply it as a possible link. What i didn't mean was that I *knew* that there is a link.

[Tellos Athenaios]

"Dyslexia" is a misnomer, it implies the person has a problem learning language - they don't, they have a problem learning to write.

By contrast, if someone has a problem understanding politics they have a problem understanding human interactions.

In the previous thread someone said Dyslexics have trouble learning languages, but that's not true either, they just have trouble learning to write them.

To read, as well. It's a visual pattern matching thingy, seems to be a discrepancy between how you visualise letters and what the letters actually (should) look like. For instance mentally flipping some letters "upside down".

Which is where it does become a bit of an additional challenge when learning new languages: written word is the quickest and easiest way to practice (for example subtitles on tv).

[Papewaio]

So being humans we fear, get angry with and ridicule the unknown.

Before dyslexia was figured out the children with it where made fun of even by their teachers. I'm sure more then one of them was made to wear a dunces cap and made to stand in the corner to be made an example of.

Now that we have an understanding of it and a label we are much more compassionate. Not totally so, but improved.

So I've no problem with our better understanding of some learning disabilities. I cannot figure out the logic in being angry in figuring out one issue and not resolving others such as political inability. Seems rather a non productive attitude to have.

[caravel]

By contrast, if someone has a problem understanding politics they have a problem understanding human interactions.

Probably the vast majority of people don't understand politics... it's not in the interests of the ruling classes to have a politically savvy electorate.

[HoreTore]

So being humans we fear, get angry with and ridicule the unknown.

Before dyslexia was figured out the children with it where made fun of even by their teachers. I'm sure more then one of them was made to wear a dunces cap and made to stand in the corner to be made an example of.

Now that we have an understanding of it and a label we are much more compassionate. Not totally so, but improved.

A good summary.

So I've no problem with our better understanding of some learning disabilities. I cannot figure out the logic in being angry in figuring out one issue and not resolving others such as political inability. Seems rather a non productive attitude to have.

Ah, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that dyslexia is figured out, and I'm very excited about the growing recognition specific math problems(dyscalculi) is getting.

But still, I can't be happy about a society who calls my students stupid and makes them feel like they've failed life because they can't do X. I can't accept that.

[Husar]

Are you also sorry about a society that allows a little zebra to die just because it can't run away from a lion?
Life is harsh, deal with it!

[Ironside]

Just a few weeks ago, there was a thread here about how people who don't understand politics should be treated as second-class citizens and stripped of their voting rights.

That is what I'm arguing against. I didn't see you offer any perspectives of why we should label these people dumb and strip them of their rights. You're all up in arms now though. Thus, hypocrisy.

And you yourself labeled a whole group of people "dumb" just a few posts ago. But you object to people taking one aspect of your person and calling you dumb. Again, hypocrisy.

There's a few key differences. One, politics as a school subject is a comparativly small. Dyslexia is basically that something makes them fall behind compared to the numbers of hours spent on learning it, usually because a brain center isn't working at the capacity that's considered normal.

By comparision politics would probably fall under advanced human interactions that's not really a single center in your mind. It's also not studied enough in school to fully comprehend, so that's something you'll do on your spare time. So diagnosing dyspolitixia (or whatever) compared to general disinterest in politics aren't really possible on a large scale. That would be someone who has red all platforms, significant data on the issues and still doesn't even feeling of getting something of it.
That's the flaw in your argument.

The flaw in the rants on the other hand... When buying a new car, you will of course create a weighted 20 (cars) x10 (important factors) matrix and calculate which the best car will be, don't you? Or maybe you'll identify some key factors and go with those. Or simply be going by your guts. That's because we're built that way to handle complex problems. And usually your guts are quite good at handling it and leaves you satisfied with the buy.
Of course education will certainly help, but that ignorance and simplification will remain anyway and if also present among those who has been studying the political platforms.

[HoreTore]

Are you also sorry about a society that allows a little zebra to die just because it can't run away from a lion?
Life is harsh, deal with it!

Why would I be sad at the sight of a happy lion, Husar?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To read, as well. It's a visual pattern matching thingy, seems to be a discrepancy between how you visualise letters and what the letters actually (should) look like. For instance mentally flipping some letters "upside down".

Except that Dyslexics don't have trouble with pattern recognition - Dyslexia is a very specific problem with matching glyphs to sounds, then putting the glyphs together to make words.

Which is where it does become a bit of an additional challenge when learning new languages: written word is the quickest and easiest way to practice (for example subtitles on tv).

The quickest and easiest way to practice is to talk, which is how children learn.

[The Stranger]

So being humans we fear, get angry with and ridicule the unknown.

Before dyslexia was figured out the children with it where made fun of even by their teachers. I'm sure more then one of them was made to wear a dunces cap and made to stand in the corner to be made an example of.

Now that we have an understanding of it and a label we are much more compassionate. Not totally so, but improved.

So I've no problem with our better understanding of some learning disabilities. I cannot figure out the logic in being angry in figuring out one issue and not resolving others such as political inability. Seems rather a non productive attitude to have.

no one has that attitude, horetore just made that up. he cant specifically point someone out who has that attitude except maybe children, but children will ridicule someone for having a weird name if they cannot find something else or if that kid doesnt have a weird name, they will make a weird name up for him. they can also be very understanding ofcourse, like that 13yo kid from horetores example. now lets turn that into a social critique.