POTUS Election thread

[Greyblades]

May contain f-bombs.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/gr...ond-eh-hillary

Excellent.

[HopAlongBunny]

A realistic look at Trump and "bringing back manufacturing!"; biggest problem...it never left and is doing very well thank you

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...rce=features_1

[Husar]

http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/18/...oters-like-me/

A somewhat interesting view, a few times I wondered whether @Proletariat wrote it.

There are of course a few flaws, for example the point that a lot of Trump voters oppose his more racist ideas. This might be true, but apparently those are the "silent" Trump supporters who leave the stage entirely to the screaming crazies, making their opposition to these ideas essentially useless. Even more so given that their vote for Trump enabled the implementation of said ideas.

The part about the left not actually being very tolerant is interesting at least, probably worth thinking about and at the very least partially true.

[Fisherking]

So very much coming from the American Left is just so much spin. What comes from the MSM is as bad as any other Fake News.

Most Americans are not very interested in race. They mostly have friends and colleagues with diverse racial backgrounds. Race usually only plays a part in politics. The Left has made much of Identity politics. It also has become their hue and cry that anyone who disagrees with anything is Racist, Facist, and Bigoted.

They hold the ridiculous view that only Whites can be Racist while at the same time supporting real racist organisations. Whites and Christians are there whipping boys. You need do no more than belong to one of those groups to be held to be a racist, unless of course you belong to the most outspoken leftist groups.

The rest of the people, from moderate to the right (I know no one in the Alt-Right), are resentful of group rights for special interests. To them, everyone has the same basic rights. Not more and not less. They get resentful at being told what to do and what to think. Some Christians still have a problem with the idea of gay marriage but most others could care less, at least until you bring bathrooms into the equation. Americans are paranoid about pedophilia. They disdain the Welfare System because they wrongfully believe that most are generational freeloaders. Most Americans opposed Obama Care and think they are saddled with a bill of goods. To the majority of Trump Voters this is just a swing of the pendulum. Many only voted Trump because Clinton was totally unacceptable. Another sizeable portion are those out of work and long term unemployed who were desperate.

There of course are racists and racism does exist. But most are not organised and White Racist groups are a very tiny segment of the population.

Trump was never considered a Racist until he opposed the left and most people only saw it a rhetoric. Trump was forgiven by his voters because they saw the media hysteria as leftist spin.
In general they thought the remarks were taken out of context or distorted by the press. There is even some merit to that argument. But overall, I think that Michael Moore got it right. He was a human hand grenade to hurl at the establishment.

By echoing the cry of the American Left of “Trump Supporters are Racists” only means that you are too intellectually lazy to look for the truth and are therefore taking the word of Fascists and Racists that their opposition are Racist Fascists.

[CrossLOPER]

So very much coming from the American Left is just so much spin. What comes from the MSM is as bad as any other Fake News.

You can say that about any news that you don't like.

Most Americans are not very interested in race. They mostly have friends and colleagues with diverse racial backgrounds. Race usually only plays a part in politics. The Left has made much of Identity politics. It also has become their hue and cry that anyone who disagrees with anything is Racist, Facist, and Bigoted.

There is no left in the US. There are various shades on conservative, and I believe that the side that pushes its agenda on Christianity is firmly in the right.

They hold the ridiculous view that only Whites can be Racist while at the same time supporting real racist organisations. Whites and Christians are there whipping boys. You need do no more than belong to one of those groups to be held to be a racist, unless of course you belong to the most outspoken leftist groups.

You're lumping people together again, not unlike the people you are blaming.

The rest of the people, from moderate to the right (I know no one in the Alt-Right), are resentful of group rights for special interests. To them, everyone has the same basic rights. Not more and not less. They get resentful at being told what to do and what to think. Some Christians still have a problem with the idea of gay marriage but most others could care less, at least until you bring bathrooms into the equation. Americans are paranoid about pedophilia.

That's ignorance at best, and forcing your beliefs regarding gender at worst.

They disdain the Welfare System because they wrongfully believe that most are generational freeloaders. Most Americans opposed Obama Care and think they are saddled with a bill of goods. To the majority of Trump Voters this is just a swing of the pendulum. Many only voted Trump because Clinton was totally unacceptable. Another sizeable portion are those out of work and long term unemployed who were desperate.

So third party options were not on the table? It had to be the orange racist?

There of course are racists and racism does exist. But most are not organised and White Racist groups are a very tiny segment of the population.

Racism need not be in a group in order to have an effect. It's a social belief that can be shared by a broad population.

Trump was never considered a Racist until he opposed the left and most people only saw it a rhetoric. Trump was forgiven by his voters because they saw the media hysteria as leftist spin.
In general they thought the remarks were taken out of context or distorted by the press. There is even some merit to that argument.

I am puzzled as to how calling Mexicans rapists and suggesting Muslim internment camps can be "distorted", and especially after appointing two well known racists, one of whom headed an alt-right news organization.

But overall, I think that Michael Moore got it right. He was a human hand grenade to hurl at the establishment.

Again, I am puzzled as to how a) you can make billions and have zero contacts in state and economic institutions and b)how you expect someone with no ability to navigate the political realm will accomplish anything other than tarnishing a position to the point of being a joke.

By echoing the cry of the American Left of “Trump Supporters are Racists” only means that you are too intellectually lazy to look for the truth and are therefore taking the word of Fascists and Racists that their opposition are Racist Fascists.

"I can't come up with a counter-argument, so I'll call you stupid."

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Amusing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ssador-united/

Trump wants Farage as UK Ambassador - UK Government annoyed.

[Beskar]

Amusing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ssador-united/

Trump wants Farage as UK Ambassador - UK Government annoyed.

I like how the Web Poll is 100% in favour of no. I wish I voted "yes" now, to be like that 0.0001% in favour.

[Xiahou]

I'm old enough to remember when Democrats went crazy when Trump suggested he might not accept the election results. Of course, that was when they thought Hillary had it in the bag. After she loses.... I guess opinions change.

Trump has made some interesting choices for his appointments, but otherwise has done little to indicate he's going to be a good president and quite a few things to indicate he'll be a bad one. I'm trying hard to reserve judgment- he hasn't even been sworn in yet, but it's hard.

Apparently, rules preventing federal employees from profiting from their positions don't apply to the President. Expect Trump to take full advantage of this. But at least you don't have to worry about Hillary and the corrupt pay to play Clinton Foundation right?

[Gilrandir]

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/22/calex...ps-report.html

[CrossLOPER]

I'm trying hard to reserve judgment...

Let me help you:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38070930
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...fcc-transition
http://arstechnica.com/business/2016...of-presidency/

The last one is my favorite.

"I will ask the Department of Defense, and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, to develop a comprehensive plan to protect America's vital infrastructure from cyberattacks."

Mere months away from office, he still does not have a coherent, stable plan or stance on anything.

Mind you, this could end up being hilarious as some of the voters are already pretty butthurt:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38072846

There is also the chance he accidentally makes America "great again".

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38034165

I'm old enough to remember when Democrats went crazy when Trump suggested he might not accept the election results. Of course, that was when they thought Hillary had it in the bag. After she loses.... I guess opinions change.

Hey, are you old enough to remember that Hillary didn't go on rants about how the system is rigged and how some Trump supporters promised revolution?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us...mp-voters.html

Do you also remember the time that Hillary conceded as soon as the results became clear?

[Beskar]

I'm old enough to remember when Democrats went crazy when Trump suggested he might not accept the election results. Of course, that was when they thought Hillary had it in the bag. After she loses.... I guess opinions change.

If we are going to be honest about this, you are twisting the situation. What Trump did was state that he would not accept the result if he loses, and he would contest it. This is something that has not actually happened before in the United States and defied convention. This was the actual candidate saying this. After Trump won, Hillary conceded defeat before the final results were in. She did not deny or contest the election.

Now, some people were doing demonstrations (which are legal under free speech) saying their disapproval of Trump. Then people like yourself then accuse people about being hypocrites about the Trump situation, when the Trump situation was actually something different. People can go #notmypresident #dumptrump #crookedclinton all they like on twitter, but an actual presidential candidate outright denying the results of an election and the consequences of this is something else entirely, as in constitutional crisis level.

[Idaho]

You're wasting your time Beskar. Rhetorical Fallacies are the stock and trade of the right. In this case:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

[Husar]

You're wasting your time Beskar. Rhetorical Fallacies are the stock and trade of the right. In this case:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

While the point is valid, the delivery is severely lacking. I don't think a discussion with Xiahou is a waste of time.
In fact I'd say that you're now polarizing and generalizing "the right" and that's just not right either...

[Idaho]

Anyone with half a brain can see that Trump has no clue about how to "make America great again". He was either a good electoral strategist or just a mob demagogue who was lucky in the paucity of his opponent.

Coming to any position after this election other than keenly analytical cynicism, is a sign of intellectual weakness and blinkered patriotism.

[Husar]

Anyone with half a brain can see that Trump has no clue about how to "make America great again". He was either a good electoral strategist or just a mob demagogue who was lucky in the paucity of his opponent.

Coming to any position after this election other than keenly analytical cynicism, is a sign of intellectual weakness and blinkered patriotism.

I found it obvious from his post that he is rather honest about not really finding anything to like about Trump. The least you could do is acknowledge that he is trying to be honest to himself and the world, I read his post more as someone trying to deal with the reality of Trump rather than someone who wants to praise Trump or so.

Your last point is especially weird since you're basically mandating an emotional state for others and claim they're not intellectual if they don't have it? That sounds like you have patented the only real truth or something like that, which seems rather arrogant and elitist in itself.

I'm merely asking you to make your point in a more polite manner, because, you know, it's not very intellectual to bark at everyone with a different opinion like an attack dog.

[Pannonian]

I found it obvious from his post that he is rather honest about not really finding anything to like about Trump. The least you could do is acknowledge that he is trying to be honest to himself and the world, I read his post more as someone trying to deal with the reality of Trump rather than someone who wants to praise Trump or so.

Your last point is especially weird since you're basically mandating an emotional state for others and claim they're not intellectual if they don't have it? That sounds like you have patented the only real truth or something like that, which seems rather arrogant and elitist in itself.

I'm merely asking you to make your point in a more polite manner, because, you know, it's not very intellectual to bark at everyone with a different opinion like an attack dog.

That is the point American posters have repeatedly made about the Democrats though. They are right, and they don't need to listen to people who disagree with them.

[Husar]

That is the point American posters have repeatedly made about the Democrats though. They are right, and they don't need to listen to people who disagree with them.

I am aware of that, but then again it is a similar generalization to the one I was criticizing Idaho for, no?

When I see both sides making a mistake, I'd rather open up a third side than join either of them.

[HopAlongBunny]

The Battle for America continues!!!

Jill Stein is demanding recounts in battleground states, and it looks like she will acquire the money to do so.
Is this "situation normal" or is it "not accepting election results" ?
I vote "situation normal"; she has the right and the means to ask for a recount => all systems working

[InsaneApache]

Democracy? Pah!

[Sarmatian]

You mean, Hillary Clinton is demanding a recount. She's just using Stein to get it.

[Husar]

You mean, Hillary Clinton is demanding a recount. She's just using Stein to get it.

Like Putin used Trump to become POTUS?

[edyzmedieval]

In defence of Trump, he apparently is trying to get some more moderate Republicans on board to make sure that he does not alienate his voter base and does not generate a serious confrontation with the majority of people who did not vote for him.

Because at this moment, there's over 2 million of them over the ones who did vote for him.

Picking Romney, for example.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As I suggested long since in this same thread (though I admit that I thought it was hypothetical when I did so), Trump the president will prove VASTLY different than Trump the campaigner. Trump is many things, but not stupid. He will be forced to acquire persons from the establishment -- particularly in foreign policy areas -- because he is well aware of what he can do and what he cannot. He certainly thinks that he can face-to-face with any leader (he wrote "the art of the deal" after all) but knows zip about putting together an embassy or lower level conferences that his new status prevents him from handling personally.

To gain GOP congressional support, he must provide at least some face saving for the establishment. His nominees for the administration are far less rabid than the members of his transition team. He has repudiated water-boarding, repudiated the alt right, watered down his comments on the wall with Mexico, etc.

Interesting to see how long it takes for Trump to be thought of as "just another right winger" by the US political left protest crowd...and how long it takes for Trump voters to start accusing him of betraying the "Washington outsider" cause.

[Kralizec]

(he wrote "the art of the deal" after all)

Errr, no he didn't.

[Beskar]

Errr, no he didn't.

Ghostwritten by Tony Schwartz for Donald Trump. In short, Trump hired an author to write the book in his name.
(for context/explanation)

[Husar]

And for source: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...iter-tells-all

“I put lipstick on a pig,” he said. “I feel a deep sense of remorse that I contributed to presenting Trump in a way that brought him wider attention and made him more appealing than he is.” He went on, “I genuinely believe that if Trump wins and gets the nuclear codes there is an excellent possibility it will lead to the end of civilization.”

If he were writing “The Art of the Deal” today, Schwartz said, it would be a very different book with a very different title. Asked what he would call it, he answered, “The Sociopath.”

Mister Schwartz doesn't seem to be a big fan either.

[Husar]

https://scontent.ftxl1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...14&oe=58B89DFF

[HopAlongBunny]

Maybe this should go in the secession thread:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...f-touch-it-is/

California is revolting!

[edyzmedieval]

Revolting on paper only. Because California will never break from the United States. Just a simple thought.