Which faction provides the biggest test?

[williamsiddell]

Sadly, my war elephants are now pushing up daisies.

[ReluctantSamurai]

An all cav army seems like it might require too much micromanagement.

Aye, too much like hard work for me too. I'm always looking for the easy option.

Do you two not know about the grouping function? Or the "draw' method...where you draw out where you want your units to go (and you can do multiple units at the same time)? I certainly don't manage a 20-unit Cat army individually one-by-one

I try to use up the missiles ASAP and then use them as traditional heavy cavalry.

I usually do the opposite...remove skirmish mode and fire-at-will, then turn on FAW when chasing routers....

I did not realize they had that speed advantage.

Same here.

I know my posts can be a bit long-winded and boring, but......I've been touting the advantages of Arab Cavalry in desert conditions for quite some while now

The elephants promptly routed back through my own troops. I exited the battle just in time to stop me smashing the computer screen. RS - you can keep them :) BTW have you seen the AI using flame arrows against them.

Sigh...Your commanding generals attributes are...??? Your support units were...??? You have to understand the strengths/weaknesses of the unit before you can use them properly. First Rule...Ellies primary purpose is not to kill the enemy, but to cause disruption. Ellies, on their own, do not cause a lot of fatalities. You can see this if you zoom in close...they knock down or toss enemy soldiers, most of whom get back up. This leads to the Second Rule....Ellies need support in the form of a cavalry charge. I cannot stress this enough. If you read through the Ellies thread in the Ludus Magna, you will see this stated repeatedly by various posters. Once your Ellies hit, pull them back out of the line and let your cavalry clean up the mess. Regroup them, and find another point in the enemy line to disrupt.

In Shogun, there was a similar unit that gave players endless frustration....muskets. For players that learned how to use them, there was great joy and satisfaction at demolishing superior enemy numbers. For those that didn't know how to use them...well, computer screens had a rough life

As to the use of fire arrows...I've only ever had "baby elephants" go amok on me...never, ever, had a War Ellie or an Armored Ellie go bezerk. I actually prefer enemy archers to waste their time shooting at my ellies because there's simply no effect.

In any case, Parthia gets Heavy Cats so there's no overriding need to use Ellies.

I've just seen a merc hoplite in Alanni.

Not all mercs populate their respective regions right away. Some take time to be available, and after that are available based on the replenishment rate given in the desrc_mercenaries file.

[Vincent Butler]

Do you two not know about the grouping function? Or the "draw' method...where you draw out where you want your units to go (and you can do multiple units at the same time)?

I know about grouping and drawing, but I think four HA's is about the max I can handle at one time. For how I use them, the group and draw won't help, since they only stay in the same area, not together, I use pairs, one unit to divert the enemy, one to shoot them in the back. I will usually have one pair on either side of the enemy army to hit the wings. That tactic requires supporting heavy cav to protect against the enemy's own cavalry. I guess I need to upgrade my stables to at least Cat Archers or Cats, whichever one is first. Will need to build up my money supply. In my Armenia campaign, Parthia finally attacked by besieging Artaxarta. I was tired of fighting battles by then, and Pontus also besieged Sardis, so I got off the game and played some BF1942.

I've been touting the advantages of Arab Cavalry in desert conditions

I remember one of your posts, you said something to the effect that only Light Lancers are faster. Keeping a supply chain of AC seems like too much bother, especially when you I destroy most armies so that they rout anyway, and up north I can hire Barb Cav mercs, I know they are not as good, but they would only be for running routers down anyway.

BTW have you seen the AI using flame arrows against them

Yes, I have, in a town, I moved my elephants out of range, so I will take RS's word that they do not run amok from arrows, they do sometimes when they get boiling oil from trying to batter in a gate, if they don't all die first. I know that I have seen at least War Elephants go amok from boiling oil, I have not used Ellies enough to see how my own do in battle.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I think four HA's is about the max I can handle at one time

As you get more proficient with them, that number will increase. You begin to get a sense of how long you can have your attention elsewhere before you need to come back.

I guess I need to upgrade my stables to at least Cat Archers or Cats, whichever one is first.

Cat Archers come first and somewhat eases the need for micro-managing. If you get Vahagan advanced enough, and combined with an armory, you get +1 or +2 exp chevrons along with armor....sweeeet.

In my Armenia campaign, Parthia finally attacked by besieging Artaxarta. I was tired of fighting battles by then, and Pontus also besieged Sardis, so I got off the game and played some BF1942.

You made two mistakes, IMHO. One you already identified yourself...splitting your empire. The second is not eliminating Pontus before taking on the Seleucids. While you are picking up some nice money-making cities, you don't have the cash to fight a multi-front war, and your better units require cities to reach 6k and you need the time to construct the barracks. Pontus, the GC, and the Seleucids get decent enough troops to fight you without the need for more advanced barracks. So...grab Sinope, Mazaka, and Nicomedia quickly while eliminating Pontus, then consolidate while developing your infrastructure. Parthia is easy to contain...once their two starting Cat units are gone, they are no threat for a long time. Once you get to Heavy Spear and CA's, it's like swatting a gnat

Once you get Sinope to start producing Heavy Spear, you can go toe-to-toe with Greece. Heavy Spear is not as good as an Armored Hoplite, but they certainly can hold their own while you work your majik with the HA's, and certainly not every Greek hoplite is going to be of the armored variety.

Bottom line...move slower. That seems like the antithesis to what we discussed earlier (acting like Mongols), but, as Armenia, you need to balance the needs of consolidation with conquering. You really start to roll only after you can start filling out your armies with Heavy Spear and Cats.

so I will take RS's word that they do not run amok from arrows

They do not run amok from arrow fire ONLY if you have them in the hands of a better than average general that has morale-boosting qualities/ancillaries (a cavalry general is optimal as ellies are classified as cavalry, but those kind of generals take some time to develop). I cannot stress this enough. Ellies are too expensive to waste them on a fledgling general with a couple of command stars. I never, ever give them to anyone with less than 5 stars, and a bunch of attributes that boost unit stats...the most important being morale.

[Vincent Butler]

You made two mistakes, IMHO. One you already identified yourself...splitting your empire. The second is not eliminating Pontus before taking on the Seleucids

Had I not made the first, the second wouldn't have happened. Had I attacked Nicomedia instead of Halicarnassus (still don't know what I was thinking), Seleucia would not have attacked me because my army would not have been where it was. That said, I learned a valuable lesson about what HA's can do to pure infantry armies. Greece has attacked. I promptly kicked their tails. I will train my HA's as garrison in Halicarnassus, then go north to Nicomedia. I posted that Pontus besieged Sardis, it was Sinope. Sardis is rioting because I was unable to afford to upgrade. That should change soon, I first had to upgrade Sinope to a large city, which took more money.

Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine. And he smote his enemies in the hinder parts: he put them to a perpetual reproach. Psalm 78:65,66 KJV

[williamsiddell]

I certainly don't manage a 20-unit Cat army

And neither do I. I rate them as too slow, and HA battles are too long as it is. I know about the grouping function - I don't use it much because I mostly use smaller armies that are easily controlled as it is.

long-winded and boring

Not at all. Doesn't mean I won't disagree though.

never, ever, had a War Ellie or an Armored Ellie go bezerk

Fine - my experience is the opposite (never seen ellies not go amok). You're sold on them, I'm not - they're hard work and expensive and I can win without them.

[williamsiddell]

I was tired of fighting battles

That's my main gripe with Parthia - long missile battles and, because of low cash, auto-resolve is practically not an option.

I destroy most armies so that they rout anyway

I have used AC occasionally, but like you say I can win without them. Against Egyptians I sometimes pick up mercs. Usually there are camel options and AC - in the past I've chosen the camels (mostly archers for their range).

Yes, I have, in a town

I think I've only seen the AI using flamed missiles (archers and onagers) in sieges and I don't use them myself. I don't build archers as Parthia, but I'll take a couple of units along in the desert and see what happens with flames. And I've finally found a use for incendiary pigs - apparently they are 'very likely' to make ellies run amok.

I never, ever give them to anyone with less than 5 stars

You clearly enjoy detailed gameplay - I just use the units available then and there.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Fine - my experience is the opposite (never seen ellies not go amok)

And you didn't answer my two questions about the leadership and support. My guess is that you had neither, and that's why they run bezerk. It's like sending a tank company out to do battle under the command of the battalion chaplain and without infantry support....they get murdered.

You clearly enjoy detailed gameplay - I just use the units available then and there.

I'm just trying to give you the benefit of my experience. Trust me, I went through the same thing when I was first learning how to use them. And my reaction was the same...I quit using them. But if you're going to 'use the units available', and you want to play Parthia, Carthage, or Seleucia, you should learn how to use them effectively. They are a battle winner like few units in RTW are.

That's my main gripe with Parthia - long missile battles and, because of low cash, auto-resolve is practically not an option

Ahem....you did ask which faction provides the biggest test....and now you are finding out why

[williamsiddell]

leadership and support

Leadership was terrible - the Greeks assaulted my city with little within, my main army was outside trying to survive. Support: 2 generals just behind, but the ellies were taking so long to get to grips I had to deal with action elsewhere and they had routed by the time I got back.

I can organise my armies - what I mean is if you're running three armies for instance you have to use what generals are around.

you did ask which faction provides the biggest test

Not complaining about that. It's definitely entertaining and a test - doesn't mean I like it all :)

[williamsiddell]

Update on my Cavalry Commander of Genius: Still no more kids after 10 years. Scarring may be responsible for that. Soligdianus the Mange is however belying his name with 3 young kids.

BTW I've got 10 generals but no military genius so far (235bc)

[Vincent Butler]

I know at least with Rome, they take a while to have kids. Barbarians, no. Realistically it probably was the other way around, Julius Caesar said that for the Germanians, to have had knowledge of a woman before the age of twenty was a disgrace, and the longer you waited, the more prestige you had.

you have to use what generals are around

Quite so. Later on, if I don't get good generals, I will just take an additional heavy cav and use him as the captain. Roman generals usually have to work for it, though I have seen a general come of age with seven stars, don't ask what traits he had as I don't remember. Military Genius was probably one of them. Those kind are very rare, usually I don't see higher than three or four.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Leadership was terrible...Support: 2 generals just behind, but the ellies were taking so long to get to grips I had to deal with action elsewhere and they had routed by the time I got back.

So fail on the two biggest rules regarding ellies. Any wonder why they underperformed?

Two general units is meager support to begin with...and they went elsewhere temporarily, leaving the ellies essentially without support. Ellies are far slower than cavalry, and you have to take that into consideration. When I echelon a cav unit behind them, I send the ellies off first, and when they are about halfway to their target I send the cav. The ellies get a short time to rumble about after their initial impact, and then the cav hit. The ellies are then backed out of the line to regroup. It's a deadly combo.

Update on my Cavalry Commander of Genius: Still no more kids after 10 years.

Bad luck of the draw

And speaking of your Cavalry Commander of Genius...why weren't the ellies under his direct command? That's a 10 star leader and the kind you need to command elephants

35yrs into the game is not enough time in my experience. It's usually the second or third generation that gets the 16 year old military genius.

[williamsiddell]

And speaking of your Cavalry Commander of Genius...why weren't the ellies under his direct command?

He was one of the generals in behind (and I didn't take the generals with me - I was readjusting other units).

Here's the problem. I had 12 units including the elephants facing a tough size 20 Greek with 8 AH. It was Ancyra and I decided not to risk my army in a city the Greeks were going to besiege. So I parked them outside and left a merc light inf inside. The Greeks besieged with the big army and a smaller one adjacent. I assassinated their general and then they assaulted.

My leadership was therefore poor, but so was theirs (no general). The target AH in question was marching and had spears in the air when the elephants attacked, and I reckon in those circumstances it is a poor show that the elephants couldn't last the minute I was away. It makes me think that where leadership is equal (e.g. both sides have good generals) the same would happen.

Parthia aint exactly a general producing factory - I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I reckon in those circumstances it is a poor show that the elephants couldn't last the minute I was away. It makes me think that where leadership is equal (e.g. both sides have good generals) the same would happen.

I will say this one last time, and then no more gaff from me...it's not the elephants, it's the player using them. Lack of experience on how to use them and when to use them. When you get in some good experience with them, your battles will look more like the Carthaginian elephants in the game into...

[williamsiddell]

no more gaff from me

Same here. But there is divided opinion about elephants, including with experienced players. In a real battle (i.e. not involving the AI) using elephants will be like a slow heavyweight boxer telegraphing a right hook. Where the elephant attack will come will be no surprise to the enemy. Against the AI I don't expect to get much more experience :) They're just too fiddly.

[Vincent Butler]

your battles will look more like the Carthaginian elephants in the game intro

Who used by the AI would get owned by the Praetorian Cohort, against the cav maybe a different story. If the AH were marching with phalanx up, they should not have decimated the Elephants. Same thing happened to my Cataphracts against Militia Hoplites. They don't get their anti-cav bonus with spears up, do they?

[williamsiddell]

AH were marching with phalanx up

I've agreed with RS that I've said enough about a certain unit which will remain nameless (let's just say it's got big ears). Aye, it was a disappointing outcome.

[Vincent Butler]

Actually I am curious in general, phalanx units not in phalanx don't get the bonus vs cav, right?

[ReluctantSamurai]

If the AH were marching with phalanx up, they should not have decimated the Elephants.

They didn't:

a war elephant unit into one of the AH. The elephants promptly routed back through my own troops.

Who used by the AI would get owned by the Praetorian Cohort

Reverse that and it's the Praetorians who get owned.

They don't get their anti-cav bonus with spears up, do they?

They shouldn't, but there might be an issue there that needs investigation.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Same thing happened to my Cataphracts against Militia Hoplites.

Cataphracts and Elephants are two of the most powerful units in the game. They are not, however, invincible. Set them on an impossible task...let them get flanked or overwhelmed by sheer numbers and they will fail. A single Cat or Ellie charging head-on into a group of enemy units does not exactly instill fear and disruption. But a wall of flesh and steel bearing down on enemy lines and striking at full charge, will likely win the battle for you right then and there.

I'll get down off of my soapbox now

[williamsiddell]

phalanx units not in phalanx don't get the bonus vs cav, right?

There seem to be lots of things about this game that are not fully known, mostly I think because much of how the AI behaves is not open to plebs like us. Two examples - ten years on and I still can't get a definitive answer about rebel spawning and I have no idea of how Man of the Hour is decided. The best you can do is run little tests if you come across possible issues like that to satisfy yourself.

I'll get down off of my soapbox now

Too late! Those things with big ears? I am now willing to admit I was talking about elephants. It's true the elephants had routed and not yet gone amok (usually only a matter of time though). I've only just discovered you can kill them off when they do.

A single...Ellie

My understanding is even if only one of a group of elephants is surrounded the whole lot can amok.

Finally, i think they did a good job with the AI considering how old the game is (though I doubt if modern AI is much better), but I only rate it as maybe as clever as a crow.

RTW2 up to patch 14?

VB - I know you're interested in history. Have you seen the reports of a large tomb that's just been found in Macedonia from about the time covered by this game?

[williamsiddell]

My final word (mainly because I have no elephants left). I had built another War Elephant in Antioch before the debacle at Ancyra so I sent it south against Egypt. A big battle outside Palmyra. This time I kept the ellies wide attacking one wing with support from 2 cats and 3 gens. It was doing well having trampled several units and I was arranging to flatten a routing unit with my generals when I spotted the red flag in the view. They still had 42 left but had gone amok. I used my new found ability to end them - only just in time as they were turning toward my generals. I couldn't see anything obvious to cause the amok so I came to the conclusion that a nearby Nubian phalanx had released some mice. Interestingly after the battle there were still 15 elephants left. How they survived a spike in the brain is beyond me, suffice to say I think they'll be worse than ever. (still not seen ellies that didn't go amok)

[williamsiddell]

Broke my duck. Battle outside Antioch. Sent the 15 elephants after a chariot archer and they chased them out of the battle and finally routed them for a loss of 2. Those spikes must have had a beneficial effect.

[ReluctantSamurai]

i think they did a good job with the AI considering how old the game is

Some aspects are good, others are abysmal. The switch to a 3-D map had a lot to do with that. In Shogun I/Med I, the AI was sharp and aggressive...many players coming back to Shogun/Med after the RTW honeymoon was over, were getting their a$$es kicked because they had grown accustomed to the passive and erratic RTW AI. Pathfinding on the campaign map is atrocious...just play a bit with FOW off. Stacks mill about with no real purpose...generals pop out of a city or town, meander out to their favorite pi$$ing post, then reenter the next turn. Stacks will bypass an obvious enemy (brigands or an opposing factions) to seek an enemy many turns away from where they are. Most factions build far too much navy at the expense of ground troops...particularly bad when said faction is losing one settlement after another from a lack of ground troops. The list goes on and on....like I said, just watch how the AI performs by removing FOW.

[Vincent Butler]

Elephants are awesome against chariots, good for fighting Egypt and taking care of both types of chariot units. Egypt does have lots of archers, of course, so if you are paranoid about flaming arrows...Actually that would be a good time to see how they react, to satisfy your own mind. If they do amok, just spike them. I have seen it mentioned before, how after you kill your elephants you can get them back.

generals pop out of a city or town

Hilarious to watch. Does anybody know what a diplomat is attempting whenever they look like they are negotiating with you, but nothing comes up? Are they attempting a bribe?

Stacks will bypass an obvious enemy (brigands or an opposing factions) to seek an enemy many turns away from where they are

I have mentioned this in another thread, in BI I don't know how many hordes I have seen bypass multiple settlements and hit Campus Lazyges. Always Campus Lazyges. I don't know if it is hard-coded that way because it starts out rebel, or what, but my brother and I have both noticed it. Now it could be they are hard-coded to target the human player, and Campus Lazyges was many times the closest settlement. That said, I have seen them skip Campus Gothi and hit Campus Lazyges. By the way, double Schiltrom by each hole in the walls/gate, just a little space between them, really good strategy for dealing with Hordes.

[williamsiddell]

I wondered why everything seemed to be going so slowly (apart from the long battles and the days off in-between). Then it clicked - I'm fighting four factions :) Scythia - strong enough up there to attack starting with Sarmatae. Pontus - still has a fair army but I was able to bribe the closest small one. Greeks - I was heading for Sardis, but they've just now besieged Ancyra with their last remaining army (all militia this time). I'll take them on next time I play. Egypt - just taken Palmyra (12k pop slave boosted Hatra, Salamis and Ancyra who can all now build) after 2 turn end battles against three armies. Plenty of cash. My days of fighting rebels are over at least until they get too expensive.

[Vincent Butler]

You seem to bribe rebels a lot. How can you afford it, it is cheaper to defeat them. I know most of them want at least 3,000 denari, and at this stage I know I can't afford it. If you bribe an army at those prices every couple of turns, that will put a real drain on your finances, from what you have described. Later on I will bribe rather than get an army together, but early on it is destroy.

[williamsiddell]

http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=...c#.U-03S2PP-9s
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=...c#.U-062mPP-9s
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=...c#.U-03nmPP-9s
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=...c#.U-03vWPP-9s

You might need a magnifying glass but there are no rebels on the map except for 2 in the north of Scythia. One is a general and my assassin has just died of old age. The other I'll take with the small army next to it (my diplomat is off screen to the left). Note 66k cash at start of turn. I have several cash cow large cities and most of what I need is already built - small cities are still at the peanuts building stage.

[Vincent Butler]

Ok, at that level you can afford to bribe. I assumed you were still down around 10,000 at the start of every turn. Nice thing is you really only need to invest in stables, not stable, barracks, and archery range. Destroying the rebel armies is a great way for your commanders to gain experience. I wouldn't say you are at the stage where you can afford an army simply for destroying rebels, but an occasional bribe now and then shouldn't hurt you too bad.

[ReluctantSamurai]

My days of fighting rebels are over at least until they get too expensive.

With all the money invested in watchtowers (I have never seen anyone build that many) another entire Parthian army could be rampaging through the rest of Anatolia...

Destroying the rebel armies is a great way for your commanders to gain experience.

That's what I do with my junior commanders. Once the next level of horse archers become dominant within my army ranks, all the remaining vanilla HA's get retired to brigand patrol...