Serious question about a hated subject - Lorica Segmentata

[abou]

Actually, even "mostly" might be too strong of a word. We don't really know, but I've seen both Sidon-type helmets and Atto-Thracian types on Roman monuments featuring Roman soldiers.

[ludwag]

But why not use Coolus helmets? They are so cool-us.(like in cool)

[Aemilius Paulus]

I think Hollywood use(d) it mainly because it was distinctive, not necessarily because it was cool.

-Glee

Couldn't have been more correct there! Everyone uses maile, not to mention that the average person most commonly associates maile with Medieval times, but Lorica Segmentata on the other hand, was something special, something more exotic and unique.

[ljperreira]

Actually only bits and pieces of the Kalkriese lorica was found, not enough to completely recreate the Lorica. But many Lorica Segmentata fittings were found. In case you don’t understand, the fittings are the hinges, tie hooks, buckles, etc. used on the Lorica Segmentata. This is the case at many sites where Loricas plates are found. The reason for this is that the fittings are made of bronze and deteriorate at a very slow rate (if at all). The Lorica plates, on the other hand, are made from iron which deteriorates at a much faster rate. After the ambush of the Roman Legions at Kalkriese the bodies lay exposed to the elements for years, and it wasn’t until 15 AD that Germanicus and his Legions found the battle site and buried the bones of the lost Legionaries. It is said that the bones were found piled in heaps and skulls nailed to trees, which obviously means the Germans stuck around after the battle and could have made off with the valuable iron of the Lorica (to melt down or sell). Some scholars believe that due to the evidence that Loricas were already being used by some Legions or Legionaries by 9 AD, the Lorica Segmentata may have been in use even earlier than that.
I dabble in Roman Legionary Reenacting and have given school presentations on the Armor and weapons used by Legionaries. Ive made two Kalkriese Loricas based on the findings at the battle site mixed with elements of the Corbridge type A Lorica. I modified Legion XX’s Corbridge A pattern, and used the pictures of the Kalkriese Lorica diagram at their site (http://www.larp.com/legioxx/kalklor.html).
So, I think that you can realistically add some units wearing the Lorica Segmentata and still be authentic. Its your mod and your choice, but I believe you are being overly stubborn about it.
You can see my Loricas in use at a school presentation on our Myspace page (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...ndid=370139281) check out the pics. And yes, we're wearing glasses. We didn't want to but we also didnt want to fall over the kids or otherwise hurt ourselves.

[Foot]

wait, so we are being stubborn for not spending resources on creating an armour that only appears in the archaelogical record in 9AD, I mere 5 years from our end-date. Yeah, thats definately an unreasonable position to be in. We are not the ones who are stubborn. We've made our position clear many times over, we've laid out our reasons over and over again, yet still the Lorica Seg issue is brought up again and again.

Foot

[Gleemonex]

So, I think that you can realistically add some units wearing the Lorica Segmentata and still be authentic. Its your mod and your choice, but I believe you are being overly stubborn about it.

We've made our position clear many times over, we've laid out our reasons over and over again, yet still the Lorica Seg issue is brought up again and again.

And you guys are surprised that we're fed up of hearing about it?

-Glee

[Ibrahim]

wait, so we are being stubborn for not spending resources on creating an armour that only appears in the archaelogical record in 9AD, I mere 5 years from our end-date. Yeah, thats definately an unreasonable position to be in. We are not the ones who are stubborn. We've made our position clear many times over, we've laid out our reasons over and over again, yet still the Lorica Seg issue is brought up again and again.

Foot

amen to what you said.

@abou: yes, I see. I might need a better word indeed

[Cbvani]

Trampled.

Dang. I could've sworn it wasn't. Yeah, pretty much trampled.

[keravnos]

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=12701

The end of Lorica segmentata... and the reasons behind it.

[ljperreira]

wait, so we are being stubborn for not spending resources on creating an armour that only appears in the archaelogical record in 9AD, I mere 5 years from our end-date. Yeah, thats definately an unreasonable position to be in. We are not the ones who are stubborn. We've made our position clear many times over, we've laid out our reasons over and over again, yet still the Lorica Seg issue is brought up again and again.

Foot

Honestly, I couldnt care less if you add the Lorica to the game or not. Im still going to play it because you folks do a good job with your mods. But, with that being said, that was my first and only post on the subject (I havent been following the mod, I have better things to do). So no, I haven't brought it up again and again. And you should expect to see this subject come up, because you are making a mod about the Roman Empire, and Roman Legionaries did wear Loricas for a time. I only added the above comment because unlike many of you, I have actually made several Loricas. I don't just play the game, I make the equipment so I can give a better lecture on what Ive experienced for myself. Ive also made and worn chain mail as well as a lamellar cuirass, and I honestly feel that the Lorica is the most comfortable and provides the best protection overall. Chain mail only protects you against slashing cuts or stabs, but not against blunt force trauma. The Lorica provides protection for all of the above, and requires less padding.
My post was not a request for the modders to add the Lorica, but to shed a little more light on the Lorica subject. I felt that, since Ive done some research on the matter, my input would be helpful to whoever was interested. The fact that you're bored with the subject is you're own problem, so try biting someone elses head off.

P.S. The reason why most reenactors use the Lorica Segmentata armor is because most Legionary reenacting groups portray the invasion of Britain in AD 43, a time when most historians agree that the Legionaries were predominantly using the Lorica Segmentata, and Auxiliaries were using the Lorica Hamata.

Also, by the way, the Corbridge hoard findings actually made a complete Lorica Segmentata reconstruction possible.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Honestly, I couldnt care less if you add the Lorica to the game or not. Im still going to play it because you folks do a good job with your mods. But, with that being said, that was my first and only post on the subject (I havent been following the mod, I have better things to do). So no, I haven't brought it up again and again. And you should expect to see this subject come up,

I suggest you to read Foot's post a good bit more closely (people isn't the same as you, right?); as well as contemplate the meaning of FAQ threads.

because you are making a mod about the Roman Empire, and Roman Legionaries did wear Loricas for a time.

Thank goodness, we're not! I suggest reading the front page of the EB Website.

I only added the above comment because unlike many of you, I have actually made several Loricas. I don't just play the game, I make the equipment so I can give a better lecture on what Ive experienced for myself. Ive also made and worn chain mail as well as a lamellar cuirass, and I honestly feel that the Lorica is the most comfortable and provides the best protection overall. Chain mail only protects you against slashing cuts or stabs, but not against blunt force trauma.

I've worn the Lorica myself, and I'd be very much surprised if the Lorica did give you such (or indeed any at all) advantage against Brute (!) Force trauma. Seeing as what my fist can do to a can, you'd rather not suffer what my hands + suitable axe or mace can do to your Lorica.

[ljperreira]

I've worn the Lorica myself, and I'd be very much surprised if the Lorica did give you such (or indeed any at all) advantage against Brute (!) Force trauma. Seeing as what my fist can do to a can, you'd rather not suffer what my hands + suitable axe or mace can do to your Lorica.

Actually, the Lorica is made up of 18 gauge to 16 gauge steel, each row overlapping the other. The torso plates all overlap from top to bottom, and the shoulder guards overlap from the upper shoulder guard down to the mid collar plates and the lesser shoulder guards. The overlapping is the strength of the armor. Ive hit it with many things including hammers, and it takes the punishment very well (Ive even shot arrows from an english longbow my brother owns at it, besides scraping a brass hinge, the arrows didn't penetrate the armor). The weakness in the Lorica is the fittings (hinges, tie hooks, etc.), which will fail quicker than the steel (or iron) plates. Im not saying the lorica is impervious to blunt force trauma, a rock solid hit will make you uncomfortable. But chain mail, in comparison, does not absorb the impact, you do. The very thing that most people like about chain mail, its flexibility, makes it very uncomforable when recieving a good solid hit. Can you say bruised and/or fractured ribs?
Also, planting a good solid hit into any armor is pretty hard when you also have to get by the shield, and the Legionary's comrades.
The comment about what your fist can do to a can.....are you speaking of say, a trash can, or a soda can? Well, either one doesnt matter, honestly if you tried hitting a real Lorica with your fist you'll end up with a very sore fist and a perfectly good Lorica Segmentata.

[Gleemonex]

Roman Legionaries did wear Loricas for a time. I only added the above comment because unlike many of you, I have actually made several Loricas. I don't just play the game, I make the equipment so I can give a better lecture on what Ive experienced for myself.

That's a laudable (and probably damn fun) pass-time. But unless you personally made a few thousand of them prior to 14AD, your experience is completely irrelevant to EB's decision to not include the LS.

Hell, there was a poll about doing away with the Augustan reforms altogether hardly a month ago.

-Glee

[Majd il-Romani]

ljperreira does make sense, but I think thayre not including it in EB2 because it simply isnt in the EB time frame and it'd have to be extended a good 50 years for it to have been widley used, not becaues LS r teh suxxorz!zomg!

[ljperreira]

That's a laudable (and probably damn fun) pass-time. But unless you personally made a few thousand of them prior to 14AD, your experience is completely irrelevant to EB's decision to not include the LS.

Hell, there was a poll about doing away with the Augustan reforms altogether hardly a month ago.

-Glee

The making of it is fun until you start on the fittings, which all have to be hand made. Its very tedious and time consuming to make multiple hinges, buckles and buckle hinges, and so on.
The best part is when you're done, when someone compliments you on you're accomplishment. Its pretty neat when you see the look on some peoples faces when the see for the first time something they've only read about. Especially the kids, they seem to get a kick out of it.

And, once again, I dont follow the EB II progress posts and such. I just ran into this topic and decided to give my input. For crying out loud, ive only posted a few times since I joined in 2006, so obviously im not a regular around here. And also, once again, im not trying to sway EB's decision. The topic is "Serious question about a hated subject - Lorica Segmentata". Its perfectly legal for me to give my opinion and some of my knowledge on the matter, since that is the purpose of this topic. If you're tired of the subject, if you dont want to read any more on it, THEN DONT!!! Bypass the topic for something else, and dont harass someone who responds to it.

[Gleemonex]

Its perfectly legal for me to give my opinion and some of my knowledge on the matter, since that is the purpose of this topic. If you're tired of the subject, if you dont want to read any more on it, THEN DONT!!! Bypass the topic for something else, and dont harass someone who responds to it.

It's perfectly legal, but anything other than a complete stonewall on our part results in a flood of pro-LS posts. Ergo, we can't bypass the topic; or rather, every time we do, it turns into a flame fest and gets locked. I'm beginning to think that's the primary reason Foot is called Foot

And I appreciate your not taking our strong-ish words too personally. But as I mentionned earlier in the thread, this subject comes up a mojillion times and we don't really have the time or energy to respond with anything other than a 100% absolutely hell no. Unless you guys want to play EBII on the Duke Nukem Forever 2 engine.

The making of it is fun until you start on the fittings, which all have to be hand made. Its very tedious and time consuming to make multiple hinges, buckles and buckle hinges, and so on.
The best part is when you're done, when someone compliments you on you're accomplishment. Its pretty neat when you see the look on some peoples faces when the see for the first time something they've only read about. Especially the kids, they seem to get a kick out of it.

Now THIS I have no problems discussing!

Are you a history teacher? Or do you just do little demonstrations for kicks? I'm teaching here in China, and I've thought of dressing up to teach kids about Western history (and to show the locals that the West wasn't just a bunch poo-slinging australopithecenes until Marco Polo came along).

I've even shown clips of HBO's Rome to some of my adult students. They found it hard to follow, lacking basic knowledge of Greco-Roman culture. But I had lots of fun telling them about the wild old Greco-Roman days.

Also -- can't you use pre-fab hinges and buckles? Nobody expects you to learn to make late-Roman sheet metal after all, so it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to use mass-produced fittings.

-Glee

[ljperreira]

Ahhhh, ok, I think I was taking it personally. I figured that since someone had opened a topic on the subject, it was open season. Now I know better.

Anyhow, I'm working on my History credentials as we speak, with a goal to teach at a college or University. Since I do Living History presentations for the public (Roman Legionary, American Civil War, WWII) my brother and I get invitations from schools to give presentations on the use (and sometimes, construction) of weapons and armor. I've made plate armor (Roman and Medieval), Helmets (Dark age and Medieval), chain mail, and Lamellar.
Dressing up in period attire enriches the subject matter, no longer are you just some teacher droning on about history. Instead the students can actually see and feel the weapons, armor, attire, what have you from the time period.

I try to make my armor projects as authentic as possible. The fittings have specific requirements in order to be true to the originals. The hinges, for example, were originally made double layered for strength, and so the hinge tube is formed when you fold the bronze in half. Modern hinges are single layered, and the tube is formed by rolling the edge. Hopefully that makes sense. So, in order to have authentic hinges, you'd have to make them yourself, because I havent found any sources for these type of hinges (I wish there was, the lobate hinges used on the Corbridge type A is very time consuming to make). And thats just the beginning.....check out this site for more info: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorica.html

HBO's "Rome" is a great story, but authenticity is out the door (like so many other movies made). I still own both seasons, though......

[ludwag]

I think what people really want is the legionaries to look more tough. Part one is to use coolus helmet instead of montefortino. bigger shoulders. Not shaved every morning, and a bit dirty. Maybe some marks and cuts in their armour.
EDIT:
I made a little picture very fast to show you what i mean. I put lipstick on the montefortino-guy to amplify my point. I hope you understand what direction I think the legionaries should go.

[Jolt]

I think what people really want is the legionaries to look more tough. Part one is to remove the montefortino/ make them more tough. bigger shoulders. Not shaved every morning. And things like that.

EDIT:
I made a little picture very fast to show you what i mean.

I put lipstick on the montefortino-guy to amplify my point.

Haha, nicely done. Anyways, if someone wishes to play with Imperial Cohorts, WW2 helmets and adamantine armor, it's pretty simple. Just model and skin the said units with anything you wish, replace the legionary unit, then edit it's stats so it becomes as uber as you like. Problem solved.

[Gleemonex]

Ahhhh, ok, I think I was taking it personally.

Well, we've seen worse

So, in order to have authentic hinges, you'd have to make them yourself, because I havent found any sources for these type of hinges (I wish there was, the lobate hinges used on the Corbridge type A is very time consuming to make). And thats just the beginning.....check out this site for more info: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorica.html

That sounds like a pretty intense hobby! I'll bet you have a wicked Hallowe'en costume lined up.

HBO's "Rome" is a great story, but authenticity is out the door (like so many other movies made). I still own both seasons, though......

Well, I wouldn't teach post-secondary history with it. But taken for what it is, it's an excellent series by any measure. The only major anachronicity -- stirrups -- were a concession to actor safety.

I made a little picture very fast to show you what i mean.

I put lipstick on the montefortino-guy to amplify my point.

Very nice.

-Glee

[QuintusSertorius]

Christ on an f-ing bike, why are people obsessed with lorica segmentata? I just don't get it. It doesn't even look good, mail is much cooler. More to the point, it didn't exist in the period. So why do people keep asking?

[General Appo]

They have been brainwashed by Foot. And yes, LH is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay cooler.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Actually, the Lorica is made up of 18 gauge to 16 gauge steel, each row overlapping the other. The torso plates all overlap from top to bottom, and the shoulder guards overlap from the upper shoulder guard down to the mid collar plates and the lesser shoulder guards. The overlapping is the strength of the armor. Ive hit it with many things including hammers, and it takes the punishment very well (Ive even shot arrows from an english longbow my brother owns at it, besides scraping a brass hinge, the arrows didn't penetrate the armor). The weakness in the Lorica is the fittings (hinges, tie hooks, etc.), which will fail quicker than the steel (or iron) plates. Im not saying the lorica is impervious to blunt force trauma, a rock solid hit will make you uncomfortable. But chain mail, in comparison, does not absorb the impact, you do. The very thing that most people like about chain mail, its flexibility, makes it very uncomforable when recieving a good solid hit. Can you say bruised and/or fractured ribs?
Also, planting a good solid hit into any armor is pretty hard when you also have to get by the shield, and the Legionary's comrades.
The comment about what your fist can do to a can.....are you speaking of say, a trash can, or a soda can? Well, either one doesnt matter, honestly if you tried hitting a real Lorica with your fist you'll end up with a very sore fist and a perfectly good Lorica Segmentata.

Soda can: but that steel is of much, much very much better quality than any Lorica was. And it has the benefit of the ideal shape to withstand such blunt force trauma. You see blunt force trauma is not just broken ribs: it's also internal bleeding, shock and other nastiness you won't immediately see. What Lorica segmentata undoubtedly is good at is resisting force, but that is not the same as dissipating that force. The force will be still echoed back to the thing in the can, which now happens to be your body; you can see that from the example of the soda can within it is air which does not resist the applied force at all, instead it moves out -- leaving the can to crumble under the impact of my fist.

[oudysseos]

What you need to know about Tellos Athenaios: Don't make him angry. You won't like him when he's angry.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Especially if you're a pop can.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread should be locked?

[ljperreira]

Soda can: but that steel is of much, much very much better quality than any Lorica was. And it has the benefit of the ideal shape to withstand such blunt force trauma. You see blunt force trauma is not just broken ribs: it's also internal bleeding, shock and other nastiness you won't immediately see. What Lorica segmentata undoubtedly is good at is resisting force, but that is not the same as dissipating that force. The force will be still echoed back to the thing in the can, which now happens to be your body; you can see that from the example of the soda can within it is air which does not resist the applied force at all, instead it moves out -- leaving the can to crumble under the impact of my fist.

The overlapping plates help to dissipate the force of the strike by allowing the energy to travel from one plate to the next. The padding underneath the armor also absorbs some of the energy. That's not to say you won't feel any of it, but it's sure better than taking that same strike wearing chain mail (which will cause the broken ribs, internal bleeding, and all the other nastiness you speak of). Also, as I've said before, this only occurs if your opponent is able to get by your shield and your comrade's shields on the left, right, and in back of you (his shield can be used to protect your head from overhand strikes). So it stands to reason the your Segmentata (or Hamata) is not your first line of defense, but your second or third and your shield being the first.

The metal we use for Segmentatas is 18 gauge mild steel (cold or hot rolled) due to the fact that iron sheet is really hard to get, and work.
But as far as steel being better, it just depends on what you're using it for. Steel is made to be forgivable, and will dent if hit with enough force. Iron is more rigid, but brittle, and shouldnt dent if hit. But if hit hard enough, may crack. At least, this is how I understand it, as I am not a metallurgist I may be wrong. Smarter people than myself have discussed this very thing on "Roman Army Talk" http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtop...0525&highlight.
Look at Chris's explanation on page two (he is a metallurgist).

[Gleemonex]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread should be locked?

Actually, this has become pretty civilised (with just enough heat to keep it interesting). Anyone see the devil buying ice skates this morning?

-Glee

[ludwag]

I think we should change subject to helmets. I think the imperial Legionary Cohorts should use coolus helmet. And the other things I said about looking tough and dirty and unshaved.

[abou]

Sure, ludwag. Start compiling information then - especially on the unshaven part.

[antisocialmunky]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread should be locked?

If you lock it, there will just be another. You might as well leave this up there so you don't have to deal with another one so soon.