So what do you think Iraq is all about?

[Incongruous]

Well I think my most cynical reasons have been proven correct. I dare anyone to say differently.

http://www.motherjones.com/washingto...-oil-hunt.html

I mean, surely these guys will get busted sometime right?
What do our friends from the U.S reckon?

Ugh, I am opening too many threads, must stop watching Syriana.

[CountArach]

Oil and US Military bases in the Middle East.

[JR-]

I think that there is a strong chance that the US/UK used the following logic:

They realised post 9/11 that the jihadist training camps set up in the 80's to fight russia in afghanistan had never closed down, and that the West had become the enemy with the fall of communism.

Twenty years of radicalised muslims had gone into and disappeared out off those camps which, given the muslim immigrant diaspora, had resulted in the largest fifth column ever devised once the war between islam and the West was declared.

This had become an ideological conflict that would last at least a generation, and only then in so short a time if islamic fundamentalist ideology was utterly discredited as a revolutionary creed.

The stated al-quada aims of, sweeping away corrupt arab regimes and replaceing them with islamic theocracy, and to spread that theocracy into a global caliphate, represented both the problem and its possible solution.

By picking a fight with a corrupt arab regime in the heart of the middle-east we achieve two aims:
1) We turn our weakness (reliance on arab regimes to feed us oil) into an opportunity (head on clash between the western liberalism vs islamic fundamentalism).
In the most televised conflict in history we force al-quada to terrorise arabs/muslims, and we use our technological and training advantage to fight a low-intensity and intelligence-led war which plays to the Wests strengths. In this war, the whole world which watch us win and them lose.
2) We turn the threat (thousands of radicalised muslims hidden in the West) into a strength (by forcing them concentrate, openly, away from the West).
The truly radicalised rush headlong into an awesome grinding machine while the partially radicalised are eventually disillusioned by defeat and repeated car-bombings in muslim/arab market places. The hidden threat in our midst is transformed into a sanitised training exercise on foreign soil.

Militant islam will win or lose its ideological struggle against the west based on publicity:
a) Does democracy of theocracy rule in iraq? (neither possibility has been demonstrated yet)
b) Which ideology is seen by the muslim world as the most disgusting? (has favoured theocracy thus far)

But either way, the while the fifth column is gradually being filtered out and 'processed', and the West maintains the stability of future oil supply which is the guarantor of continued economic growth.

Of course the US/UK can never admit that we invaded iraq to turn it into a battlefield, so we talk of WMD's and removing terrible tyrants.

This folks is my favourite self concocted conspiracy theory, and you know what........ I almost believe it.

[Ronin]

I think in order of importance it is:

1-Millitary bases/military influence in the middle east region
2-Oil/Contracts for US companies
3-Distraction from the fact that they couldn´t find bin laden
4-Unfinished business from the first gulf war/finishing his daddys work (residual motivation at best, probably more subconscious than anything)

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Oil. But don't people understand, No Oil = the World shuts down. Trust me. Go 5-10 years without ANY Oil, and your nation shuts down.

[Incongruous]

Oil. But don't people understand, No Oil = the World shuts down. Trust me. Go 5-10 years without ANY Oil, and your nation shuts down.

Uhuh...

So concocting an illegal war just for the sake of getting you're friends oil contracts and as a side effect the U.S people a more secure oil supply, was a smart move?

This is indicative of the poorly formed U.S policy in the region, they would not have needed to take on Saddam had you not created the First Gulf war (what a joke that was), by removing Iraq from a position of power which challenged the U.S' own you made it easier to control the regions oil (or so the hawks thought) but allowed a vacuum to be filled by Islamists.
Idiotic in the extreme, but after what happened under George Bush 1st and the First Gulf war, how could anyone not see this coming?

[Fragony]

Define 'this', Iraq is doing pretty well.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Uhuh...

So concocting an illegal war just for the sake of getting you're friends oil contracts and as a side effect the U.S people a more secure oil supply, was a smart move?

And Riding Horses sound fun to you ?


Define "illegal war" If you wish. Second, do you like the idea of having another nation having it's oil reserves and such being in the heads of terroists? We have enough Nations that support Terroism that we buy Oil from, we don't need anymore.

[Tribesman]

If you wish. Second, do you like the idea of having another nation having it's oil reserves and such being in the heads of terroists? We have enough Nations that support Terroism that we buy Oil from, we don't need anymore.

So now you have a country where part of the oil is shared by the supreme council for islamic revolution and the mahdi army , which are kinda terrorists like , then you have another where the oil is shared by the KDP and PUK which are kinda terrorists like , and a deal where part of those oil revenues go to the awakening councils which are kinda terrorists like...now when you add that 3 of them groups are Iranian backed which I assume is a kinda place you might be refering to as a nation that supports terrorists like and it sorta make me wonder what you thought your point was ?

[yesdachi]

Originally I think we went there to kick a$$ because we could. Saddam was a douchebag with or without WMD’s or any connection to 911. We hopped on our white horse, while half cocked and rode in and knocked over his house of cards (which I still think was a good thing to do and a move we should have dome 10 years earlier). Then we turned around with our heads held high and got ready to leave and noticed we couldn’t without knocking over everyone else’s house of cards or letting enemies build bigger houses of cards in Saddam’s place. We were screwed ever since.

Everything that has happened since the end of the beginning (oil prices, civilian contracts, Bin Laden, WMB cover-ups, etc.) have all just been convenient opportunities that were left open after the initial strategery.

[Jolt]

Three letters - O.I.L.

And the funny thing is, for a president who was saying he was liberating Iraq, coercing the country to accepting military bases and total control of it's air space under the threat of freezing all Iraqi assets and bank accounts outside Iraq seems entirely another different thing.

[caravel]

It is about oil, always was about oil and always will be about oil.

[Incongruous]

Originally I think we went there to kick a$$ because we could. Saddam was a douchebag with or without WMD’s or any connection to 911. We hopped on our white horse, while half cocked and rode in and knocked over his house of cards (which I still think was a good thing to do and a move we should have dome 10 years earlier). Then we turned around with our heads held high and got ready to leave and noticed we couldn’t without knocking over everyone else’s house of cards or letting enemies build bigger houses of cards in Saddam’s place. We were screwed ever since.

Everything that has happened since the end of the beginning (oil prices, civilian contracts, Bin Laden, WMB cover-ups, etc.) have all just been convenient opportunities that were left open after the initial strategy.

What a load of crap, the biggest douche bags were the Bush presidents and anyone connected to them, the U.S has (sorry was mean to add the U.K, swear I did, crap!), through short sightedness and complete incompetence created an even worse environment for the West to get what it needs, Oil.

So looks like its the neocons who have brought us closer to riding horses...
I mean as soon as Iraq had fallen the wolves had moved in, ex-British ministers and presiding Aussie ones creating a legit front for the most corrupt businessmen in the world. Making a mockery of humanitarian missions...

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13484

ugh.

[Redleg]

What a load of crap, the biggest douche bags were the Bush presidents and anyone connected to them, the U.S has, through short sightedness and complete incompetence created an even worse environment for the West to get what it needs, Oil.

Oh your only partly correct. You got to add a bunch of other nations into the equation, your own government for examble. But then I image your only speaking about the United States, leaving out all those nations that violated the UN resolutions concerning Iraq from 1992 to 2002.

So looks like its the neocons who have brought us closer to riding horses...

Actually one can say that about a several different political groups

I mean as soon as Iraq had fallen the wolves had moved in, ex-British ministers and presiding Aussie ones creating a legit front for the most corrupt businessmen in the world. Making a mockery of humanitarian missions...

Your getting warmer......

[Incongruous]

corrected, I knew you would jump at me if I didn't include other nation, thought I had, sorry.

[Redleg]

corrected, I knew you would jump at me if I didn't include other nation, thought I had, sorry.

LOL the UK is also correct but there is a whole list of others, some that were supporting the United States and the UK, many were doing it very quietly and others that encouraged Iraq by activitily violating the UN resolutions during the 12 years between the two gound shooting wars. Remember Iraq has several air campaigns committed against it during the Clinton Presidency to inforce the UN Resolutions.

Edit: I wont count the several ground deployments of US forces into Kuwait to insure Iraq knew we were willing to enforce the UN Resolutions and protect Kuwait.

[CountArach]

Define "illegal war" If you wish.

Illegal War - For this one, let's turn to the United Nations Charter. I quote from Article 2:

3. All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.

4. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

Yeah... I have a feeling Iraq is in violation of that.

Second, do you like the idea of having another nation having it's oil reserves and such being in the heads of terroists?

Saddam Hussein was far more opposed to terrorism than most of his surrounding nation-states. Besides, the invasion of Iraq has provided the chance for far more terrorism to rise up (This is well documented and statistically proven. I just can't be bothered to find it all right now). I suppose the US better stop supporting Saudi Arabia then - one of their closest allies in the region and also one of the largest supporters of Muslim Extremism.

We have enough Nations that support Terroism that we buy Oil from, we don't need anymore.

Two things:
1) See my above comment on Saudi Arabia.
2) What makes you think that any replacement Iraqi government will stop sponsoring terrorism?

EDIT: How could I pass up an opportunity to post Punk Lyrics? Here is the music (Not the official video) and the lyrics of "Operation Iraqi Liberation (O.I.L)" by Anti-Flag.

[Ronin]

Originally I think we went there to kick a$$ because we could. Saddam was a douchebag with or without WMD’s or any connection to 911. We hopped on our white horse, while half cocked and rode in and knocked over his house of cards (which I still think was a good thing to do and a move we should have dome 10 years earlier). Then we turned around with our heads held high and got ready to leave and noticed we couldn’t without knocking over everyone else’s house of cards or letting enemies build bigger houses of cards in Saddam’s place. We were screwed ever since.

Everything that has happened since the end of the beginning (oil prices, civilian contracts, Bin Laden, WMB cover-ups, etc.) have all just been convenient opportunities that were left open after the initial strategery.

You are describing this as this was a surprising turn of events....in fact it was pretty obvious and plenty of people pointed this out before the invasion.

[yesdachi]

You are describing this as this was a surprising turn of events....in fact it was pretty obvious and plenty of people pointed this out before the invasion.

Not plenty enough or else public opinion and the vast majority of politicians would not have said go go go!

@ Boba - Oil is an underlying constant with anything to do with the Middle East. To say the war was about oil is as accurate as saying the earth is flat, from some perspectives it is but there are also a lot of other adjectives to describe the earth and the situation in Iraq. What I said is not a load of crap, what was happening there was a load of crap.

Saddam wasn’t a douche bag? Please.

[Tribesman]

Not plenty enough or else public opinion and the vast majority of politicians would not have said go go go!

Public opinion and the vast majority of politicians said no no no , did you miss that little detail ?

[Incongruous]

Not plenty enough or else public opinion and the vast majority of politicians would not have said go go go!

@ Boba - Oil is an underlying constant with anything to do with the Middle East. To say the war was about oil is as accurate as saying the earth is flat, from some perspectives it is but there are also a lot of other adjectives to describe the earth and the situation in Iraq. What I said is not a load of crap, what was happening there was a load of crap.

Saddam wasn’t a douche bag? Please.

What?
I'm not sure I understand, the earth is clearly round and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot and not worth listening to. Is that what you were saying?

You see, if you read those links I posted, it is very clear the war was about oil. If the war was about getting rid of Saddam, more time and money would have gone into the invasion. But the hawks saw a chance to get rich quick, or at least they thought they did.

Saddam was no where near as bad as the Saudis, If you wish to refute that I suggest you go and read up on their conquest and subjection of the Hijaz. Saddam was turned into the bad guy by the first Gulf War, when he was well within his rights to invade Kuwait for its blatant illegal drilling in contested Oil Fields and selling of oil well below the accepted OPEC price. Saddam was the only man that consistently tried to avert war, everyone else involved went looking for it.

[yesdachi]

What?
I'm not sure I understand, the earth is clearly round and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot and not worth listening to. Is that what you were saying?

You see, if you read those links I posted, it is very clear the war was about oil. If the war was about getting rid of Saddam, more time and money would have gone into the invasion. But the hawks saw a chance to get rich quick, or at least they thought they did.

Saddam was no where near as bad as the Saudis, If you wish to refute that I suggest you go and read up on their conquest and subjection of the Hijaz. Saddam was turned into the bad guy by the first Gulf War, when he was well within his rights to invade Kuwait for its blatant illegal drilling in contested Oil Fields and selling of oil well below the accepted OPEC price. Saddam was the only man that consistently tried to avert war, everyone else involved went looking for it.

Saying that the Iraq war is all about oil is as accurate as saying that the earth is flat.

What I see from the articles and what I said earlier is that opportunistic people/companies swooped in after the war started, to taking advantage of the messed up situation. These opportunistic people/companies didn’t plan and coordinate the war, we have proven time and again that we have a difficult time planning to find our butt with both hands; I don’t think we could secretly plan a Middle Eastern invasion at the whim of corporate USA, who also have a difficult time finding their butts with both hands. If you think we did you may want to line your hat with some tinfoil “they are listening”.

Saddam was worse than the Saudis because he was a loud mouth who pushed at us at every oppertunity. He basically asked for war by telling W and the US that we couldn’t do anything to him even if he broke all the UN rules and flaunted WMD rumors at us and flew in no fly zones and said we had a small wiener. We were already fighting over there and he was a douche bag that our people already hated so why not whip out our wiener and slap him in the face with it (not the first time taking out our wiener has gotten us in to a mess). The Saudis on the other hand tell us they love the color of our money and compliment us on our wieners size. The atrocities of Saddam may be no better or worse than the Saudis but Saddam was a nagging thorn that consistently pestered. (Lesson to Ahmadinejad and Chavez)

@ Tribes – what do you mean, even Hillary voted to authorize the war. The Iraq invasion was massively popular. It wasn’t until after we were there for a while that people started asking where the WMD’s were and then getting out their “I told you so” response.

[Tribesman]

Saddam was worse than the Saudis because he was a loud mouth who pushed at us at every oppertunity.

You should be old enoughand wise enough to know by now that it isn't the loud mouth you haveto watch out for , its the quiet little bugger who is always the dangerous one .

@ Tribes – what do you mean, even Hillary voted to authorize the war. The Iraq invasion was massively popular. It wasn’t until after we were there for a while that people started asking where the WMD’s were and then getting out their “I told you so” response.

Oh so when you say politicians and population you meant the American popualation and the American politicians were dumb , sorry I thought you meant worldwide .

[Seamus Fermanagh]

1. First and foremost, oil and the petroleum products refined from it are vital to all modern economies. Were Iraq in particular and the Middle East in general not sitting on a very large amount of this very valuable stuff, then NONE of the concerns of the region would have the salience they now do.

Were oil not part of the equation in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, then the USA may well NOT have put in the effort it did to build a coalition and liberate Kuwait that it did. Since Gulf One generated most of the situation that helped lead to Gulf Two, it is a certainty that oil was central (at least at one remove) to our attack on Iraq in 2003. This is not, however, an absolute. We had far less to gain from pounding Serbia around regarding Kosovo, but we did become involved there. USA motives and policies are subject to variation.


2. Those labeling the war "illegal" rest their arguments on either a) the material presented by Count Arach above or b) the failure of Congress to specifically declare war.

re: a) Legalistically, the USA can/did claim that Hussein's regime, by failing to live up completely and fully to the agreement ending the Gulf One conflict, had abrogated the agreement underlying the cessation of violence in 1991 and that the USA was merely renewing that conflict as any participating UN nation had a right to do.

To be fair, the UN itself did not specifically authorize a renewal of violence and many of the members of the Gulf One coalition specifically argued against such a renewal. Some, but NOT all of those opposing a renewal of the conflict may have been tainted/influenced by the "oil for food" scandals.

re: b) The US Congress did provide Bush with carte blanche in the use of force in prosecuting the war on Terror against Al Queda and any nation supporting/harboring Al Queda. I shudder every time I think of it, since I think Congress was being a collective group of wusses in not requiring the President to secure a separate DoW for each phase needed, but the SCOTUS has not balked over Congress' chosen means of "declaring war." The Bush administration did provide evidence of some links between AQ and Hussein (pretty thin ones, admittedly).

Also, Bush did specifically secure the renewed support of Congress for combat operations in and against Hussein's Iraq. While not a formal DoW, Congress -- and not the President -- did authorize the use of force. Thus, on U.S. Constitutional grounds, the war is not illegal.

Note: The legality of the war in Iraq is separate from its advisability. A good case could be made that there were a number of other nations whose support for AQ was more avid (like pretty much ANYBODY else in the M.E. including the Saudis) and that Hussein's efforts to maintain a WMD program and to support Hamas et al were really no different in 2002 then they had been in 1994 (and were also internal fictions that Western intelligence all too readily accepted as factual threats). As such, the choice to make Iraq the next phase in the WoT was an optional one. Many would argue it was a poor choice, and virtually everyone would agree that planning for a post-Saddam Iraq was completely inadequate (possibly criminally so).


3. I think the real reasons for this war in Iraq were geo-political. Underneath it all, I believe the USA was trying to physically and politically isolate Iran between a somewhat pro-western Iraq and a somewhat pro-western Afghanistan. Close in US/coalition basing would also figure into this "check" on Iranian ambition as well as serve to increase the USA's ability to put pressure on Syria and the M.E. in general. I agree with the general sentiment that the MDW threat etc. was, in part, a pretext. I would also agree that a "we should finish what we started in 1991" sentiment was also at play.

Neo-cons also believed that the "magic of democracy" as seen in a renewed Iraq would serve as an example that would drag all of the other middle eastern states toward this stance. While not impossible (though many think it so), little planning to bring this to fruition was made. Even if things do trend this way, it will not be in the simplistic fashion that undergirded this line of thought among neo-con planners.


4. There is a persistent attempt to categorize the Invasion of Iraq as a hunt for oil. I have no doubt that any number of parties are, will, and will continue to seek self-enrichment by exploiting these resources if at all possible (I would argue that the same can be said of the oil for food program). Also, as noted in popint #1 above, oil is an underlying element in any decision regarding the M.E. Reducing the entirety of the conflict's origins to this mantra is, however, simplistic at best. As the above points aver, there are numerous antecedents and objectives that were at play in this choice.

If all that was sought were oil, we had just as ready a pretext provided to us by Chavez in Venezuela and were far better positioned (and staffed with language specialists) to establish a puppet regime in Caracas then we were to do so in Iraq. We could even use Mexico's tacit use of illegal immigrants as a means of siphoning money from the US Economy as a pretext to invade them, calling it an act of war. In short, there were easier targets by far available if the only reason for this confict were personal and/or national enrichment.

[yesdachi]

Oh so when you say politicians and population you meant the American popualation and the American politicians were dumb , sorry I thought you meant worldwide .

I was just referring to Americans, the rest of the world is way to smart to get involved in wars for stupid reasons.

[Tribesman]

re: a) Legalistically, the USA can/did claim that Hussein's regime, by failing to live up completely and fully to the agreement ending the Gulf One conflict, had abrogated the agreement underlying the cessation of violence in 1991 and that the USA was merely renewing that conflict as any participating UN nation had a right to do.

They had no right to do so under that agreement Seamus , the agreement was of nations acting under the authority of the UN and as such legalistically they ceded their soveriegn authority as far as using that document goes to the authority of the UN ....and the UN refused to renew the conflict because the "evidence" Powell was given to present to them had most of them laughing their tits off .

3. I think the real reasons for this war in Iraq were geo-political. Underneath it all, I believe the USA was trying to physically and politically isolate Iran between a somewhat pro-western Iraq and a somewhat pro-western Afghanistan. Close in US/coalition basing would also figure into this "check" on Iranian ambition as well as serve to increase the USA's ability to put pressure on Syria and the M.E. in general.

Unfortunately for America and the wider region the people who were selling America the information that they swallowed wholeheartedly in their desire to check Iranian influence were being employed by ......Iran

[Dâriûsh]

I was just referring to Americans, the rest of the world is way to smart to get involved in wars for stupid reasons.

Quite. I'm sure the reasons in Darfur are sound. As are they in Chad, Thailand, Columbia, Palestine, Georgia...

[Tribesman]

I was just referring to Americans, the rest of the world is way to smart to get involved in wars for stupid reasons.

Hey easy now Yesdachi thats quite enough of that , down with all that sort of thing .
Then again some polticians , take Bertie for example (corrupt scumbag that he is ) .
He was quite plain and open why he supported Americas efforts , it was a good opertunity for Ireland to make some money .

[Redleg]

They had no right to do so under that agreement Seamus , the agreement was of nations acting under the authority of the UN and as such legalistically they ceded their soveriegn authority as far as using that document goes to the authority of the UN ....and the UN refused to renew the conflict because the "evidence" Powell was given to present to them had most of them laughing their tits off .

Incorrect the United Nations does not have any soveriegnity - nor can the United States give up its soveriegnity to another. Now the United Nations can do what it wishes but it does not constitute an authority or a soveriegn authority for any nation. Until you can actual prove that the Hague Convention concerning the signing of peace or cease fires does not apply to individual signator nations this arguement has little legal standing. Which is one of the primary reasons why no illegal war crime charges have been applied to anyone that is involved in the conflict.

Unfortunately for America and the wider region the people who were selling America the information that they swallowed wholeheartedly in their desire to check Iranian influence were being employed by ......Iran

Oh there were others involved, Iran had a big part in the equation but many others were involved to include good old Saddam himself.

[Incongruous]

Saying that the Iraq war is all about oil is as accurate as saying that the earth is flat.

What I see from the articles and what I said earlier is that opportunistic people/companies swooped in after the war started, to taking advantage of the messed up situation. These opportunistic people/companies didn’t plan and coordinate the war, we have proven time and again that we have a difficult time planning to find our butt with both hands; I don’t think we could secretly plan a Middle Eastern invasion at the whim of corporate USA, who also have a difficult time finding their butts with both hands. If you think we did you may want to line your hat with some tinfoil “they are listening”.

Saddam was worse than the Saudis because he was a loud mouth who pushed at us at every oppertunity. He basically asked for war by telling W and the US that we couldn’t do anything to him even if he broke all the UN rules and flaunted WMD rumors at us and flew in no fly zones and said we had a small wiener. We were already fighting over there and he was a douche bag that our people already hated so why not whip out our wiener and slap him in the face with it (not the first time taking out our wiener has gotten us in to a mess). The Saudis on the other hand tell us they love the color of our money and compliment us on our wieners size. The atrocities of Saddam may be no better or worse than the Saudis but Saddam was a nagging thorn that consistently pestered. (Lesson to Ahmadinejad and Chavez)

Ok, to the first part, well yes actually I do believe Big Oil is powerful enough to dictate U.S foreign policy in the region, ARAMCO used to be really good at it.

Saddam was pissed because you supported openly hostile and blatantly illegal Kuwaiti drilling and oil sales. He had, as did the rest of OPEC the right to deal with the Kuwaitis however he saw fit.
The U.S went in because Iraq was just too damned powerful for an Arab nation, Imperialism and nothing else...