help against Pahlava - horse-archers vs. Cataphracts?

[KuKulzA]

Firstly thanks for bothering to read this. I was playing my Sauromatae campaign and now I am at war with Pahlava, or rather betrayed by them. My military is miniscule... but the defenders aren't much smaller in size than my immediate opponents (invading armies)

example: how is one general and 2 units of Sauromatae Fat Aexsdzhytae (Sarmation Horse-Archers) supposed to beat a Pahlava general, and 2 heavily armored cavalry units (Azad Asavaran and Grivpanvar)?
besieged at Gava-Yazyga... 3 units vs. 3 units... but he's got 2 cataphracts for my 2 horse-archers...

that's just one... if I am to survive I need to fight more of these... how?

as Saka Rauka I had heavily armored generals and if i was rich enough I had saka lancers, but I have no such thing since I am Sauromatae

thinking in terms of fighting it's simple... when some throws a very big hard punch at you....

you can evade and strike back
you can parry/block and strike back
meet force with force

but I don't have the cavalry to meet force with force... my horsemen's arrows don't do crap against the armored enemies... and my guys can't stay in sustained combat...... and of course I don't have the tough spearmen to take the charge and keep fighting to wear them down and kill them...

how can I fight an enemy that I can't take down with my only advantageous weapon (arrows)?

any and all advice appreciated.... I am gonna do some custom battles to test this scenario, see what works...

[Foot]

Sally forward and exit via a gate to the sides of where the enemy are attacking from. Use your HAs to fire arrows whilst leading the enemy cav around the park. Keep your general inside the settlement. Once your arrows are finished keep sending the enemy cav on a wild goose chase until they are tired and try and break one of them off from the others. Lure him away toward the settlement and let your general exit through a gate. When you attack, your troops will be fresh whilst his will be exhausted, you will win easily. If you feel you can take another unit on without losing too many men, do the same. Once you feel you have done enough escape back to the settlement and wait till the battle is over (please say you have timed battles). You will get a draw, or perhaps even a win and either you can try again till the enemy is utterly destroyed or the enemy will flee.

Foot

[KuKulzA]

I don't have timed battles..... shame on me
Gava-Yugra has no walls... shame on me
I have come to the same conclusion as your tactic you showed above, except with my general also in the goose-chase (since its 3v3) and since he needs to use up his arrows before I can get him to charge reliably... and to occupy the third cavalry unit until they are tired and arrows used up

i can reduce the enemy to 30-40 cataphracts before I'm dead... if I'm lucky

maybe my AAR is hopeless!
HEHEHE! *sob* hahaha


BUT I did not consider the ''tiring out = easier to break'' factor... I will try it

thanks, wish me luck...

[Foot]

If you have your general in the goose-chase he will be as tired as the enemy when the melee happens and you will have lost your advantage.

You can turn timed battles on in the game menu I believe.

The process works the same without walls, you'll just have to be careful of keeping your general away from the enemy and keeping the enemy away from the town square.

Foot

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

You do have one slight advantage, though it is small. The AI doesn't know how to switch to their secondary weapons. Meaning, in an extended cavalry clash, the enemy will have a low attack rate (with their lances). So if you have swords, you have better attack in a drawn out fight. It probably isn't enough to counter their armor.

[KuKulzA]

Originally Posted by Foot

If you have your general in the goose-chase he will be as tired as the enemy when the melee happens and you will have lost your advantage.

You can turn timed battles on in the game menu I believe.

The process works the same without walls, you'll just have to be careful of keeping your general away from the enemy and keeping the enemy away from the town square.

Foot

I will try to find where to turn battles to timed...

Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

You do have one slight advantage, though it is small. The AI doesn't know how to switch to their secondary weapons. Meaning, in an extended cavalry clash, the enemy will have a low attack rate (with their lances). So if you have swords, you have better attack in a drawn out fight. It probably isn't enough to counter their armor.

how do I switch to secondary weapons? do I simply have them "run into" the enemy? cause that's what I've been doing for melee when I still have arrows...

[Bootsiuv]

alt-click

[Arzeal]

there is so many thing I have to learn any1 care to intrust me w. the secondary attacks please? I have been playing RTW for awhile but have absolute no idea of secondary attack

[Bootsiuv]

Press alt and place the cursor over an enemy...if it's an archer or skirmisher unit you're controlling, you should see the little cursor change from a bow/javelin to a sword. While holding down alt, click on the unit with your mouse button like you would to normally attack. Your archers/skirmishers will swith to their secondary weapons and charge into melee.

[Bootsiuv]

Another thing to note is that most (if not all) melee fighers also have secondary weapons. Like a heavy cavalry might have a lance, but if you alt-click to attack, they pull out an ap axe (just as an example, I'm not 100% sure what every unit has a secondary weapon, but the unit cards stickied in this forum are good for that). Hope that helps. :)

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

When fighting cavalry vs. cavalry, I'll usually charge in with the main weapon, then once the fight has started (and the charge bonus is gone) I ALT-click for swords and don't withdraw.

[KuKulzA]

i have beaten 4 sieges to my hard-won Gava-Yugra and Gava-Yazyga
wasn't easy, but life on the steppe never was... 2 or 3 were heroic victories against same size oponents, all having top of the line Pahlavan units... armored horsies

alt+click... ahhh! shoulda known! I remember using it when the RTW demo came out! and I forgot all about it! many thanks guys... the Sauromatae AAR will survive... the show must go on!

[The Celtic Viking]

Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

When fighting cavalry vs. cavalry, I'll usually charge in with the main weapon, then once the fight has started (and the charge bonus is gone) I ALT-click for swords and don't withdraw.

Actually, it's enough to just ALT-click charge them. They will then charge with their primary weapon, and when the charge is dead they will automatically switch to their secondary one.

[Seyduna]

Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

You do have one slight advantage, though it is small. The AI doesn't know how to switch to their secondary weapons. Meaning, in an extended cavalry clash, the enemy will have a low attack rate (with their lances). So if you have swords, you have better attack in a drawn out fight. It probably isn't enough to counter their armor.

As I experienced, cavalry using primary attack(lance) is more effective against enemy cavalry.

[Foot]

Originally Posted by Seyduna

As I experienced, cavalry using primary attack(lance) is more effective against enemy cavalry.

It depends on what kind of lance I guess, but the two-handed ones have a definite disadvantage, especially if the unit has an AP secondary weapon like a mace or an axe. The lance is slower and less accurate, whereas a good melee weapon hits faster and more accurate and is still able to do damage. I always switch to a melee weapon after charging if I expect to stay in close-combat for long.

Foot

[antisocialmunky]

I've experienced the same thing using Iberian Lancers against Late Cataphracts. I think its something to do with mount bonus > AP bonus.

[Bootsiuv]

If that's really the case, it seems a little weird. Maybe AP bonuses should be improved for Cataphracts. The lance shouldn't be better in close melee than a mace or axe, that's for sure.

[mcantu]

Lances have a much slower attack time than other weapons. Somewhere around 150-200 when other weapons have a 0

[Rodion Romanovich]

also try surrounding the enemy with your HAs. Turn off fire at will, and only fire from the one that is behind the enemy. Arrows at the back of the enemy do more damage and you may hurt them more before running out of ammo.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

also try surrounding the enemy with your HAs. Turn off fire at will, and only fire from the one that is behind the enemy. Arrows at the back of the enemy do more damage and you may hurt them more before running out of ammo.

There is a cheap tactic that I've used since vanilla (which I try to not use anymore) related to this. If you have HA and are facing only infantry (or infantry and small amounts of cavalry), then I line up my HA and fire a volley or two. They will then send a single unit to attack you. Just let it come, but when it comes close, move your HA back. That enemy unit will give up and turn to return to its formation. At that time, fire everything at that unit, stopping just before he returns to his line. They will then send a different unit to attack you. Repeat the process, only shooting at their backs.

[KuKulzA]

this is how I deal with heavily armored cavalry now...
see the Steppe people train hard in wrestling when little and encamped
the general has lost his sword... "oh no!" but he's also jacked....

just yank the horse from under the rider and punch 'em!

[Lusitan_Centurion]

(just as an example, I'm not 100% sure what every unit has a secondary weapon, but the unit cards stickied in this forum are good for that). Hope that helps. :)

I think that only units fighting at the classical hoplite style (hoplites, spartans, lusotannan light and medium infantry, quartadashin levies and libio-phoenicians, etc) dont have a second weapon.

[Conqueror]

Classical hoplitai most certainly have their swords in addition to their spears.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Due to how the game works, Classical Hoplites would only use their swords in battle. Since this is just wrong, the swords were removed and now they only have spears.

[mcantu]

Wasn't that because of the over-hand animation?

[The Persian Cataphract]

It's useless... All I can do is to just laugh at your pitiful misfortunes while your armies continuously get crushed by cataphracts from hell itself. Your toothpicks are needless. Surrender. Sauromatae lands shall be assimilated and be a part of the Pahlavân collective.

Resistance is futile

[russia almighty]

TPC , Cataphracts from hell are nothing compared to Kerberos .

[The Persian Cataphract]

Fool, Kerberos is fiction...

<_<

Cataphracts from hell is... Not.

>_>

[russia almighty]

Yeah ..... tell that to those ******'s outside your flat with the MG-42's .


Gothic knights from hell are ten times worse . Gunfire don't kill em . Matter of fact TPC during the Safavid(even though that ain't your expertise) era where there any catatanks left to potentially wtf pwn arquebusiers ?

[artavazd]

use saka riders they are light and have a powerful charge(not to mention they fire arrows as well.) Charge the heavy cats with 3-4 units of saka riders and that should do. (saka riders are the key when playing with this faction.)