parthian armoured horse archer

[cedgaz]

hi i was wondering why should you buy Partian cataphracts if partian armoured horse archers is cheaper, has the same armor, the same charge and has a bow. The cataphract has AP but it think that the bow is way more useful

[russia almighty]

Because, the Cataphracts have a better secondary; the secondary of Armored horse archer has a really low attack value, like 4. The Regular Ole Cataphract's is way higher and has the AP trait.

Anyway, the Armored horse archer (if your talking about the full cataphracted one) are just to represent ....cataphracts with one set up, bows and lances, vs. lance and mace or sword.

[Theodotos I]

Still, the ability to shoot from long range makes the horse archers better, in my opinion. As I will state in my upcoming Pahlavan unit's guide, anything with a bow is better :yes: . I've seen the Shivatir-i Zrehbaran kill dozens of enemies with their bows, then close with lance, by which time the enemy was so demoralized that they broke and ran. By comparison, sending the regular or noble cataphracts in resulted in me losing half my horsemen, regardless of their AP ability.
BTW, does anyone know why the Noble Cataphracts are listed as missile cavalry, and have a quiver strapped to their leg, yet they have no bow :inquisitive: . That's puzzled me for a long time. Anyway, just my two cents, Pahlava rocks!

[cedgaz]

thanks

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Still, the ability to shoot from long range makes the horse archers better, in my opinion. As I will state in my upcoming Pahlavan unit's guide, anything with a bow is better :yes: . I've seen the Shivatir-i Zrehbaran kill dozens of enemies with their bows, then close with lance, by which time the enemy was so demoralized that they broke and ran. By comparison, sending the regular or noble cataphracts in resulted in me losing half my horsemen, regardless of their AP ability.
BTW, does anyone know why the Noble Cataphracts are listed as missile cavalry, and have a quiver strapped to their leg, yet they have no bow :inquisitive: . That's puzzled me for a long time. Anyway, just my two cents, Pahlava rocks!
I agree good sir, as I found out the same thing. The other aspect is those heavy horse archers soon rack up the chevrons, making the bow extra nasty when shot into the back of some poor fellow.
But I do add a noble cataphract to a half stack, just for effect, I just don't send em in, until their comrades quivers are empty.

[Watchman]

Having massacred my share of Pahlavan catas with assorted cheap-ass axemen, both horse and foot, I believe I should point out the lance by its lonesome sucks rocks for melee. Especially against unarmoured enemies with AP.

The archer-lancers may be just as good for the charge, but the melee catas are way better at actually killing stuff up close and personal. Note, incidentally, that the Pahlava get a close-combat cata with a nifty longsword too - much better for carving up lighter opponents than the mace.

[Tristuskhan]

Another reason to use Cataphracts is fatigue. Armoured Horse Archers must run to empty their quivers efficiently and are often tired when the time comes for the charge.
Keeping fresh Catas to deliver the first blow is sensible. Use the tired Armoured Horse Archers to support them.

[Theodotos I]

Yes, the way the AI uses cataphracts stinks, but that doesn't mean they're any less deadly in the right hands. Fatigue hurts, but when you've shot half the enemy, they're on the breaking point anyway. They're my favorite unit. I keep a few of the nobles around, as well as a unit of Grivpanvar, but nothing beats the bowmen. I've beaten Klerouchon Agema with a charge into their rear by the Shivatir-i Zrehbaran. So, I still think they're an all-round incredible unit. Can't wait to see what they would do to the Gaesatae :yes: .

[LordCurlyton]

I would have to disagree. Parthian catas (noble, reg, and griv) are just as good as cata-archers. Besides, if you took 1 unit of armoed HA vs i melee cata, the melee catas will win since all those arrows do is go POINK! off all that iron. Of course, if you're sending them in BEFORE all your archers have spent themselves, then you're obviously asking for unnecessary losses. It IS the Pahalva, after all. Its how they roll.

[antisocialmunky]

Personally, I stick with the cheap little Parthian HA and Dahae Riders.

They really become mosnters when you start putting silver on them.

[LordCurlyton]

True that. Though it is nice to have some sort of better HA for when you run into similarly chevroned AI armies, not to mention FMs who just don't like dying until that final charge.

[antisocialmunky]

True, but I'm always too piss poor to afford anything as Parthia. The government thing is just very hard to figure out since you have to look at reference material instead of being able to tell straight from ingame stuff. EB really needs to improve on that. -_-

[zooeyglass]

True, but I'm always too piss poor to afford anything as Parthia. The government thing is just very hard to figure out since you have to look at reference material instead of being able to tell straight from ingame stuff. EB really needs to improve on that. -_-

i noted similar in the past for romani reforms (which are far more simple) and the hayasdan pan-caucasian set up....certainly for pahlava and hayasdan some kind of in-game indicator might be of use....

[russia almighty]

Parthia's gov't is really finicky too. You have to build the buildings in just the right order, or, you are pwnt.

[V.T. Marvin]

Well, on the other hand, if you just check whether you have a market AND warlords herds in a city, than you are pretty sure that you can build that "reformed pastoralism" and thus in the end the "parthian reformed gov". This rule of thumb guided me through two great parthian campaigns pretty safely.

Parthian govs and Hayasdan reforms might seem complex and hard to remember. They actually are not, but they make playing for these two factions extremely enjoyable and "special" in the very best sense of the word. :2cents:

[Tristuskhan]

Parthian govs and Hayasdan reforms might seem complex and hard to remember. They actually are not...
...and that's the reason why I noted the process thrice on my rolling paper pack... Three times:laugh4: :laugh4: but now I've got it and it seems so natural, pheeeewww!:oops:

[Tristuskhan]

...and that's the reason why I noted the process thrice on my rolling paper pack... Three times:laugh4: :laugh4: but now I've got it and it seems so natural, pheeeewww!:oops:

Just remember, once you have Râmagê Stôrbêd and Pêsâg-i Bûnag, you can easily build Bûnâg-i Mânistagé Âvaran that leads to Hûpâdîkhshâyîh Pahlavânîg thru Kâdagê Êrihân-î Mânistag.

Mind you, I love this game and the Pahlavans!

Edit: sorry, double post (more or less), I'm back home a bit drunk after driving 23 kilometers in the snowstorm... and tomorow I'll spend the whole night counting red deers in the woods.

[Sdragon]

2nd Hayasdan reform is impossible to get even with that PDF that explains how. It either doesn't work or a building cancels it out since I have all the right goverments and have built everything including those reform buildings that kill public order in all relivent cities and beond. Even the Conquer has come one.

[Theodotos I]

I would have to disagree. Parthian catas (noble, reg, and griv) are just as good as cata-archers. Besides, if you took 1 unit of armoed HA vs i melee cata, the melee catas will win since all those arrows do is go POINK! off all that iron. Of course, if you're sending them in BEFORE all your archers have spent themselves, then you're obviously asking for unnecessary losses. It IS the Pahalva, after all. Its how they roll.
Yeah, but against the phalanxes of Arche Seleukia and the Ptolemies, the Shivatir-i Zrehbaran are really your only salvation. They can ride rings around the phalanxes, shooting them in the back, and then charging once they're below strength. You have to remember that they pile up the chevrons faster than ordinary cataphracts and can often get substantial attack bonuses because of that. :focus:

[russia almighty]

Sdragon, you have to conqueror the west first.

[Sdragon]

I own everything from the West coast of Turkey to the Eastern edge of the map and even Arabia. Like I said I've got those reform buildings in the lot. Also according to the PDF I should be able to reform from the West or the East?

[LordCurlyton]

Yeah, but against the phalanxes of Arche Seleukia and the Ptolemies, the Shivatir-i Zrehbaran are really your only salvation. They can ride rings around the phalanxes, shooting them in the back, and then charging once they're below strength. You have to remember that they pile up the chevrons faster than ordinary cataphracts and can often get substantial attack bonuses because of that. :focus:
True and not true at the same time. I remember well my Pahlava campaign and catas were eminently useful against phalanxes as well, though I will admit to using them more as cav stoppers more than infantry breakers. They also work wonders as FM killers. Besides, the charge of true catas will DECIMATE the backside of a phalanx, much much more so than the HA catas. I've seen 1/3 - 1/2 of a medium phalanx bite the dust in one charge. At that point, routing is usually instantaneous.
Of course, you DO get your own phalangites as regionals. Sorta makes the problem moot since they don't have to win but just lock the better phalanxes in place for the charge. To me, the units available to the Pahlava make them the ultimate Alexandrian-style army.

[Ymarsakar]

<B>Besides, the charge of true catas will DECIMATE the backside of a phalanx, much much more so than the HA catas.</b>

Is that because your horse archers have "fire at will" on? I've noticed that when HA try to charge with their lances with fire at will on, it doesn't work right.

[LordCurlyton]

<B>Besides, the charge of true catas will DECIMATE the backside of a phalanx, much much more so than the HA catas.</b>

Is that because your horse archers have "fire at will" on? I've noticed that when HA try to charge with their lances with fire at will on, it doesn't work right.
Since I never charge HA catas until the quiver is empty it should make no difference, no? I know what you're talking about though: if you leave fira at will on they'll tend to fire in the middle of a charge, thus lossing the charge bonus. Or at least that is what it seems to me.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Just remember, once you have Râmagê Stôrbêd and Pêsâg-i Bûnag, you can easily build Bûnâg-i Mânistagé Âvaran that leads to Hûpâdîkhshâyîh Pahlavânîg thru Kâdagê Êrihân-î Mânistag.

Mind you, I love this game and the Pahlavans!

Then you will really love something that will be included for them in some future build (maybe 1.1, maybe an update after that) - it was posted today on our internal forum and will be absolutely terrific and will affect the Pahlava, but you won't hear another peep about it from me till then - just wanted to tease with it. :grin:

[Watchman]

You're evil, you know that ? :laugh4:

[Tristuskhan]

Then you will really love something that will be included for them in some future build (maybe 1.1, maybe an update after that) - it was posted today on our internal forum and will be absolutely terrific and will affect the Pahlava, but you won't hear another peep about it from me till then - just wanted to tease with it. :grin:


Let me guess... an ancient persian voicemod?

[Theodotos I]

True and not true at the same time. I remember well my Pahlava campaign and catas were eminently useful against phalanxes as well, though I will admit to using them more as cav stoppers more than infantry breakers. They also work wonders as FM killers. Besides, the charge of true catas will DECIMATE the backside of a phalanx, much much more so than the HA catas. I've seen 1/3 - 1/2 of a medium phalanx bite the dust in one charge. At that point, routing is usually instantaneous.
Of course, you DO get your own phalangites as regionals. Sorta makes the problem moot since they don't have to win but just lock the better phalanxes in place for the charge. To me, the units available to the Pahlava make them the ultimate Alexandrian-style army.
Here we go again. :dizzy2: I would never deny that regular cataphracts have no value, or imply that they are bad troops. It's merely a price/effectiveness comparison. The Shivatir-i Zrehbaran are cheaper both to recruit and maintain, while essentially accomplishing the same job, in addition to their superb archery skills. And racking up the golden chevrons. I don't care much for the Pahlavan phalangitai. Infantry slows down my armies and they get owned by any Hellenistic phalanx within range. With all-cavalry stacks I can cover incredible amounts of ground per turn, hitting the Successors where they least expect it(and repelling three or four stacks per turn). To each his own. :yes:

[LordCurlyton]

Here we go again? Beg pardon? Its only a difference of 260 for a unit with 2 more armor, 3 more morale, an awesome AP!! secondary, a bigger charge bonus with the lance, in exchange for no bow. I call that effective. Show me a unit outside of artillery that will effectively take down a cata (Noble, regular, or late) at range and I'll be plum surprised. Plus at the same cost you get two different catas, Noble and Regular, one that can eat up armored foes (Regular) and one with a much more lethal sword for non-armored (Noble).
Again, they do not acomplish the same job. Armored HAs win archery duels par excellence and can deliver a charge or two; straight catas own the melee segment. If you don't fear risking the catas they will gain xp pretty quickly. A few auto-calcs against inferior opponents seem to help as well.
And what's wrong with the basic phalangite? It does it job just fine without getting owned; its not like the difference between a PF and a Klerouch or Pez is that great. They have the added bonus of being ready-made garrison troops. I find the slowing of the army to not be of much concern since by the time you use them in any large quantity you'll be well on your way to victory. Early Pahlava armies will be straight cav, in any case. And phalangites rack up chevrons just as quickly. I'll take my triple-silver pantodopai phalangitai over any freshly recruited elite phalangite any day.
And yes, to each his own, heh.

[Theodotos I]

Once again, I respectfully recognize the value of the regular and noble cataphracts. However, I am more impressed by the way Seleucid and Ptolemaic armies scatter themselves silly over the map chasing my horse archers. It's divide and conquer.
Also, I've pulled a Judas Maccabeus on the Successors' FMs more times than I can count. They chase my horse archers, I skirmish until they're separated from their main army, then close in and surround them. I've used Shivatir-i Zrehbaran to decimate the FM bodyguards countless times, often destroying a fifty-man bodyguard while only losing three or four men. My point is not that the bowless cataphracts are useless, rather that their price and upkeep do not justify using them instead. I respect your difference of opinion and wish you luck in your choice of battle tactics. This is my Parthian shot! :yes:

[LordCurlyton]

Yargh, well me previous post was a wee bit influenced by the liquor:laugh4:, so feel free to ignore the aggressive tone. But do you mean that you make lots of small HA armies and keep the Successor armies from grouping together by drawing them off and killing them? And is it really that effective against the FMs? I know being exhausted hurts your combat capability a lot, but THAT much? I guess I had too many bad experiences with gold chevroned FMs that I didn't feel comfortable engaging sans catas. My personal favorite is the Dehbed HAs though. They are still fast and decently armored, which to me is a good complement to my slow tanks. I've had cata archers chased down before so i guess that's what has mildly soured me to them.
And, of course, battles load very slowly after a few hours, and phalnxes let me auto-calc more thus saving me time and energy. So I will admit a bias there, heh. Anyways, enjoy you destruction of the AS by your means!

[Theodotos I]

Here's an illustration of the deadliness of the Shivatir-i Zrehbaran. The aftermath of a sally-out from Side against the Ptolemies. The enemy army consisted of several units of Thureophoroi, a couple Galatians, and a unit of Klerouchoi Phalangitai. Look what happened.
https://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj198/Theodotos/Shivatir.jpg
https://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj198/Theodotos/Results.jpg