View Full Version : Byzantine Infantry
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-14-2002, 11:03
I mean come on...they just rule the field!
The only Standing army in the game...
Loyal and tough...This is my second Byz game on Exp...and man , when the Byzantine warmachine starts rolling..ther aint no stoping.
anymapkoku
09-14-2002, 13:36
Byzantines are horrible.
Byzantines are the best, their generals are sooo much better than everyone else's, and their troops don't get scared and run away all the time.
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-All knowledge is worth having-
Byzantine Infantry, 2 att 2 def 0 morale.
Very good overall but that 0 morale is no good when playing MP, you have to be attentive. I like the Vikings, 3 att, 0 def and 4 morale. For the same price...
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Byzantines are weak against cavalry. On later campaign periods with early access to feudal and chivalric knights, they are a pushover. At least Muslim factions have saracen infantry, even if they are not as good cavalry killers as halberdiers and billmen. Once the swiss pikemen bug is fixed, Byzantines are totally helpless against cavalry, especially knights.
I'm actually thinking of starting a Byzantine campaign next though where I will specialize in byzantine infantry then varangian guard.
anymapkoku
09-14-2002, 18:45
To beat SP just dupe the stupid computer into dying quick and overrun the whole place.
For a real game get on multiplayer where I'm sure you'll find Feudal men/militia sergeants to be far more powerful than byz/guard combo.
smoothdragon
09-15-2002, 03:41
Are Byzantine infantry superior to Varangian Guard? Based on stats alone, the Varangian Guard should be vastly superior to them. But on the battlefield, I find that the Byz Inf is far more effecient at slicing up spearmen and holding the line than Varangian Guard. Why is that?
They seem to Ok as long as you have a decenbt leader keeping there moral up.
Annapolis
09-15-2002, 06:05
o morale? hmm, being christian and muslim, and orthodox all at one, they dont have any pride!
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"Onward Chrisitan soldiers, marching as to war,
With the Cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ the royal Master leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see his banners go!"
S. Baring-Goul
Mr Durian
09-15-2002, 18:46
Byzatines can kick anyone'ss ass in MTW. Their Byzatine Infantry can kill cavalry quite well and are superior to the more undisciplined and less armoured Islamic/Western Europe infantary.
TheLordofWater
09-15-2002, 19:09
HA the pathetic Byzantines are no match for the mighty ALMOHEAD URBAN MILITA and my favorite faction the JANNISARY AND OTTOMAN INFANTRY
anymapkoku
09-16-2002, 02:45
Byz infantry absolutely rape aum's.
I don't think Byz infantry can "kick everyone's ass", they are quite good units.
Halberdiers and pikemen can do some damage against them, though. Saracens are also more than a match, not to mention Heavy Janissaries (who despite being 60-man units, destroyed 100-man Swiss Armoured Pikemen in my custom battle playtesting).
No doubt... the Byzantine Infantry is possibly the best Infantry unit anybody can start óut with. Their size, the Discipline, and their stats make them superior to almost all units in Early game. AUM can be very deadly, but that is what we have Varangians for, they slice those AUM like they were pizzas (a strong unit with AP against a heavily armoured unit...).
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-17-2002, 00:18
Glory to the EMpire
Byz infantry are good but thats ok becuase byz basicly suck as a faction in mult outside of early era games.
Byz Inf may be the same price as Vikings and Vikings may have better attack and morale values, but ByzInf are 100 men units while Vikings are 60. As such, ByzInf can still clobber Vikings when matched up head to head and still generally perform much better in a melee against any other unit.
Sure, heavy calvary can crush a unit of ByzInf- but the costs on the two are very lop-sided. Personally, I think ByzInf should cost more.
But if you buy more than 4 byz inf (which you almost have to) you suffer the cost penalty, so increasing their cost even more might be a mistake.
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Multiplayer name:
DarkSol-SA
Well, the Byzantines need something that is strong and still not the moneyeating machines like Varangians.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
anymapkoku
09-17-2002, 10:53
Kraxis play vs good players, I don't know what newbie you were playing but no good player would lose aum vs verangians.
Well, I don't know who you are playing but that Armour Piercing the Varangians have gives them a nice advantage on top of their overall better stats.
You must clearly have played Byz. that don't field the Varangians correctly.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
Well, I don't know who you are playing but that Armour Piercing the Varangians have gives them a nice advantage on top of their overall better stats.
You must clearly have played Byz. that don't field the Varangians correctly.
[/QUOTE]
Varangies are strong and expensive...in 8k games you can only get 'em valour 1. If you see them well they will rock really, they're 'monks' type of stats with armour. But normally I prefer high valour light infantry rather than heavy inf.
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Rosacrux
09-17-2002, 16:49
While I am not impressed by the Varangian (never used them extensively anyway) I am highly impressed by Byzantine infantry.
As most should've figured out by now, one can literaly play with three unit types (byz infantry, archers - earlier trebizond and/or horsearchers, later byz cavalry - and karaphraktoi... well, ok, add some artilery in for the fear effect, that makes them four) for the whole game, when playing Byzantines.
Byzantine infantry has a tendency to stay put even in dire situations and actually manages to overcome more powerfull foes.
they are relatively fast, relatively strong, relatively good defenders and relatively good attackers. They don't excel in anything, but they are all-around the best early infantry in the game.
since I play on early (usually) and I still favor the Byzantines as a very fun to play faction - very versatile too and with great gameplay twists, according to the way one plays them - I think they really rock. Only very late into the game I have to go for something "better".
[This message has been edited by Rosacrux (edited 09-17-2002).]
Tera, I will admit that below 10k they are perhaps not the best choice.
But in my games, played against Shadewolf, they have certainly been great, in fact they won a battle for me (the general was surrounded by Almohads but he fought his way out and routed them).
I lower games I would prefer to use Byz inf because of their numbers and upgradability.
Though I find their morale to be somewhat shaky, their Disciplined nature makes them great if you lose the general as the enemy might think you are about to break.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
anymapkoku
09-17-2002, 19:46
I think Aums with 450 koku even beat verangian guards. I might have gotten lower than that too.
--reaverlisk
You mean V2 AUMs?
They might, at that level they have +1 to attack compared to the Varangians. But they are -1 in Charge and the Varangians still have the AP. But the charge can be counted out as it is the same when they hit each other (4+4 and 3+5).
So the variable is the Varangian AP and the fact that they have their shield on the back during fights. I think that means it protect their rear. But the AUM has their shields to the front, but that only helps the Varangians AP.
But the fight would be terribly even, not 100 florins in the Varangians favour.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Perhaps one should use Byzantine Infantry to hold the AUM and flank with Militia Sergeants.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
anymapkoku
09-17-2002, 22:05
Do you want the 450 unit that wins or the 550 that loses?
anymapkoku
09-17-2002, 22:08
Ill bet your cd key that my 450 aum beats your verangian guard 1vs1.
Byzantine Infantry, MTW's answer to Warrior Monks.
Yei!
I just did 15 testbattles to see if the theory fits reality.
I pitted a unit of AUM V2 against a unit of Varangians V0 on a green map (completely flat). I began to march my AUM at once I saw the Varangians march, and I charged as soon as I saw the Marching Quickly, so as to make make sure both units were equally tired.
The results were 9 victories to the Varangians and 6 to the AUM, but what I noticed was that the winner was always the one with the most kills in the charge.
The Varangians won with an average of 13 men left, and the AUM won with an average of 11.5 men left.
So I can conclude that they are in fact equal in power on the battlefield.
And this is certainly a benefit for the AUM as they are 100 florins cheaper.
This makes me wonder if the AUM don't need a little pricejump? Just 25 Florins. What do you guys say?
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 09-17-2002).]
Lol, this almost turned out to be a personal battle between Kraxis and anymapkoku to find out which unit is most valuable. You want my opinion? The units are almost all balanced.. If Unit A won't beat Unit B, the former will win Unit C while Unit B can't.
Varangies are armour piercing and are very very strong in large florin games. Capable of giving a battle to anything. Otherwise in lesser florins they might be used with success but they're quite difficult to manage - matter of morale and combat skill when you can only get them v0/1. Plus every faction has different units, if the Almos have the Urban Militia the Danes have the Vikings, the Byzantines got their infantry, the Italians got their infantry and so on and so forth. Fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Finding the units that suit your gameplay is important too. I normally have 4 defensive units (chivalric seargeants are a good choice) and 4 attacking units (vikings are my personal preference when playing Danes but Militia Sergeants ain't bad for my type of game). Plus 3/4 cavs, normally Alan Merc cavs but in fun games I also get Knights / Lancers. Fun again...MTW is splendid.
Tera.
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
I just did another series of testbattles.
This time I was the Varangians, and this time the AUM won 10 times and the Varangians won 5...
So it seems they are very equal, not 100 florins apart.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Hey Tera, I have actually experimented a little with Militia Sergeants. And they do seem to be a great AP unit in low florin games, and Valours to them are cheap.
And I have come to much of the same conclusion with the Varangians, they are certainly better in bigger games as more units will have heavier armour. While the lower games they might be powerful but basically too expensive (unless you can be sneaky enough to get them some upgrades).
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
anymapkoku
09-18-2002, 07:15
The Byzantines have Byz infantry which I like to rate a 2.2 in cost value. We'll assume that the Byz and almo players send their best units(well i guess aums aren't almo's best units though) against eachother, so it's byz inf vs AUM (I give these a cost value of 1.8). The Byz inf clearly wins if equal koku is spent. However, where the Byz player falls short is the guards, which I rate a .9 in value. Militia sergeants(2.0) mutilate guards, so combined almos get 1.8+2.0, whereas byzantines get 2.2+.9 and this is why Byz as a faction is horrible. If somehow you can use your guards to hold the center while you're superior byz infantry crush the flanks, then perhaps that works. All of my ratings were not too accurate though, I just added melee and attack x men?cost. Don't know if shields was factored into that or not.
So according to kraxis the Aum's won 16 and the guards won 14. But the aums spent 30x450 and the guards had 550x30. The last thing I'm going to spend money on is armor, weapons is more effective and cheaper as well, and miltia sergeants is good enough at AP but is twice as cost effective as a support unit as guards are.
--reaverlisk
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