View Full Version : What\'s up with archers/crossbowmen?
They BLOW! My troops wont hit a barns wall from inside one. I position the Pavise Arbalests / Longbowmen on a hill and start firing, and they miss ALL THE TIME! They are completely worthless, and I have just started to get a few extra cavalry / chivalrig sergeant units instead.
Anyone else having this problem with them? They seem to be totally worthless in their main role: killing enemy units fast.
Pachinko
09-14-2002, 21:11
Yep.. I think that too. It does suck! And the archers suck too. Except the Longbow.
P.
What is the valor of your archers? I have not found them really, really effective until they hit around 3 valor.
Perec_Dojo
09-14-2002, 21:44
I haven't had any problem with them, they seem to decimate the enemy quite nicely. Of course, that's in the early game. Are your opponents armored? Them crossbows/arbalests work better, but are slow.
Forward Observer
09-15-2002, 00:23
Quote Originally posted by Jagger:
What is the valor of your archers? I have not found them really, really effective until they hit around 3 valor.[/QUOTE]
This is so true. I too thought the archers were sort of ineffective at first, especially when compared Shogun, but I was overlooking the experience/valor factor.
Just night before last, I fought a defense with 1400 men against 2200 Almohads. I had a perfect mix of 5 or 6 professional infantry units, 2 or 3 feudal knights, and the remainder in archers, crossbowmen, and longbowmen.
The missile troops were almost all 3 valor, and I had the perfect high ground at the back of the map. The enemy was forced to come at me head on across a wide open flat killing ground and then up a very steep hill.
My crossbowmen and regular archers were on the front row, next my infantry, and then long thin rows of longbowmen set on hold position. The longbowmen would run out of arrows first, so I could cycle them out quicker this way to bring on fresh archers.
It was a complete slaughter. The lone enemy cavalry commander pranced out in front of the first wave. Three flights of arrows nailed his butt. From then on no enemy unit ever reached my lines. A couple got close, but were turned back by the constant missile fire. Each successive wave charged, broke, and ran off the map. Luckily almost the entire enemy army from then on was middle level infantry. I never pursued, but just kept replacing my depleted missile troops.
At the very end when I could see no fresh enemy troops coming on the field, I sent my cavalry to chase the last of the routers.
My final score was about 450 enemy killed and 160 captured. My total loss was only 6 men. I think a few of my men may have got hit by friendly fire, or maybe a few of knights stepped in gopher holes. While this is not a huge kill score against 2200 men, it was almost all due to archery kills.
Anyway, the point is that the battle was won entirely by my archers! At the right place and the right time they can work wonders.
Cheers
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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 09-14-2002).]
So I just need to give the archers some field time? How many battles for a valour point? Any other ways to give them experience? Longbowmen and arbalests are really useless at the start.
insolent1
09-15-2002, 01:11
put them in with a good general eg 3 6 star general will give all his troops 3 valour so then they are 3 valour it then dosen't take them long to go to 4/5/6 as they get a lot of killz when they have higher valour.
KILLING = VALOUR
A great way to train your king/heirs is to charge them into archers & pesants they get loads of killz & their valour goes up
I've had good luck with archers and crossbowmen. In a good defensive position they are often my big killers. Like FO said, they can break an attack all by themselves.
The sounds and animations for the archers are excellent too.
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COGITOERGOVINCO
Major Robert Dump
09-15-2002, 01:42
come on line sometimes. Dump will show you how to use them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Quote What is the valor of your archers? I have not found them really, really effective until they hit around 3 valor.
[/QUOTE]
The problem is low valor archers need to kill to gain valor.
I find that most of my cavalry get 1-2 valour extra at the end of a large battle just from mopping so much of the enemy.
Forward Observer
09-15-2002, 02:11
After battles, surviving missile troops with thinner ranks should have higher valor. By combining with other depleted units you will get full strength high valor units. Add a high valor general and you have some kick-ass missile troops.
Something else to remember though, is that if you fight, or are forced to fight, with archers in the rain, they are at a real disadvantage. This probably accounts for my greater missile troop successes in the dryer climates.
The tool tips say it all. Archers shoot poorly in bad weather. I have had my over confident butt handed to me on a plate, several times, because of this.
Cheers
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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 09-14-2002).]
Ugh, I'm getting the mental image of this game being "who can defend the longest without getting tired and attacking" online... Is this correct? Attackers seem to be at a very large disatvantage generally speaking.
Catapults and archers in a defensive battle are wicked combo. The cats scare the heck out of the enemy troops and often freezes them - many times they never even close to HTH combat. While they are frozen in fear, your archers and xbows can really mop up.
I was playing the Byzants and my 2,000 men were attacked by 4,500 Elmoheads. The first wave was crushed with 250 dead, and their king was killed by a cat. The enemy units never attacked - they were just frozen in fear, and my xbows and Byzant cavalry (with bows) just mopped up. The Elmos were so devastated that the follow on armies appeared and promptly ran away. I lost only 8 men from a few Elmo archers. I never used my reserves.
Grifman
Annapolis
09-15-2002, 03:00
well, in a large enough battle, without vast ammounts of archers, there is a good chance of running out of arrows. especially if they fake attack and retreat. intrntionnaly for that purpose.
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ElmarkOFear
09-15-2002, 03:21
Attacking is a lot more fun then defending and on most maps it really doesnt give that large of an advantage to the defending team. I rarely defend when playing online and have beeen very successful. It just takes tactics and teamwork to attack correctly. Keep practicing online and you will see. Good luck and hope to see you on the battlefield. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Forward Observer
09-15-2002, 03:32
Quote Originally posted by absent:
Ugh, I'm getting the mental image of this game being "who can defend the longest without getting tired and attacking" online... Is this correct? Attackers seem to be at a very large disatvantage generally speaking.[/QUOTE]
I do not play on line and all of my observations have been from the single player campaign. That said, it has always been a known fact that defenders usually have an advantage because generally they get to pick the ground in advance, and also have the advantage of being static, i.e. their missile troops don't have to stop firing because they are marching.
I too, have had a couple of battles won by a single catapult team when they got lucky and took out the enemy general. Since they have a greater range than archers, when set on fire at will, they make a great early warning system as the foe approaches.
Cheers
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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
I find that a pavise Crossow and Lonbow combination works well. The trick with Longbowmen and standards achers is not to place them on 'fire at will, but to micromasnage them (a hassle but worth it) and target them on the enemies elite armoured units, Longbows and Trebizoid bowmen are very good at this. Use you pavise crossbows to duel it out with the opponanats archers as they have good missle defence and there ammo lasts longer.
MajorPain
09-15-2002, 07:00
I thought that all the shooters were bad too. But once i had to defend a province with almost only shooters I had:
4 arqu...
4 crossbowmen
3 arbalests
3 militia sergeants
and 2 chivalric knights
The enemy had a around 5000 men.
I lined up the 4 arqu... first then crossbow and in the back the arbalest. my milita I sat up near my front so I could attack the enemy fast if the enemy would come near my arqu.... and my cav i had in the back ready to support my flanks or chase routing enemy.
I won my battle the shooters took about 1000 men my knights took almost that many when the enemy routed.
I never had to use my milita because the enemy never came that close. the arqu scared them away many times so my knights could chase them. and b4 the enemy got reinforcement I walked back with my knights and did it all over again and again and again. I didnt lose more then 40 men. That was a very acceptable loss.
Thing is, when you're playing a 5-7k florin game like most of us play online, archers of Valour 3 are so incredibly not cost-effective that no one would bother taking them with that high a bonus.
So in general, missile troops seem to be slightly less-effective than perhaps they should be.
Just get 1 valor Chivalric Sergeants http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/icons/icon8.gif
absent?? of banned from tw fame??? omfg
Mount Suribachi
09-15-2002, 15:44
I've found archers to be highly effective - like others have said, getting to 3 valour seems to be a key - I certainly noticed a jump in their performance when they got their. I'm Italy, so I churn out Genoese Sailors (start at valour 1). I too have had the enemy rout off the field under sustained archer fire without joining in HTH. One tip I do have is to concentrate all your fire onto one unit at a time - 6 units of archers can very quickly reduce a unit to very few men in no time at all. Since GS had their valour increase I've even used them succesfully on the attack in a kind of creeping barrage manuever.
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COOMBZ? DA? RICKO? WHO IS IT???????? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/icons/icon11.gif
fr33 :-D
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[This message has been edited by ltj (edited 09-15-2002).]
btw i never use archers until longbow and arbalesters
normal archers are weak and dont do enough to justify a slot and crossbows suck
longbows and arbs rock tho, esp for defense :-)
Desert archers in the desert rules, no rain to stop them, then group a group of 5-6 archer untis, then shoot at the enmy of your choice, he runs quite quickly after that. the thing with archers is that you need to consentrate as much possible fire power on a single enemy.
why use archer to hold up enough slots to do that much damage when you could break them with just a little casualties with spearmen & stuff?
this is against AI though, and the AI can be stupid and get itself trapped
SKD_Navy
09-16-2002, 00:19
desrt archers, bah!
desert camels, Ya!
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early on i do not use many archers, but later i use desert archers/arbalesters/longbowmen to great effect (depending on who im playing).
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Alba Gu Bragh
omg fr33 :-D
mcb*tt
lets buy the game AND PLAY u VS ME?????????????????????????????????? i think
I've had battles where my 120-man strong Arbalesters each got 250+ kills. Not sure the valor during those battles, probably 2-3. Ironically, they ususally don't get a valor point for that feat.
The most impressive battle won by archers was when I had 120 desert archers, 120 sacaren infantry and 80 mamluk cavalry (320 men) vs about 1200 peasants. The sacaren's never engaged the enemy (though they ran after them a bit), and the day was won by the archers. After the archers had nearly depleted their arrows, the peasants broke and ran after my cavalry and sacarens charged (the archers had killed enough of them for their will to break). The mamluks ended up with 540 captured peasants, the highest number of captured enemy I've seen for a single unit so far in the game (the 2nd highest was my group of Nizaris vs fanatics/peasants, they got about 400 each for two groups).
Ranged units are cool http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I was playing the Turks (until I reached a point where the game would always crash on a particular year), and have fallen in love with horse archers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Great harassment units. I usually lose them 'cause I'm not paying attention and am focusing elsewhere on the map while a unit is going after 'em, but most of the time they're very effective at disrupting the AI's approach. They're the only unit I feel save leaving nearby the enemy's main force all alone peppering away at them.
btw heres a killer tactic especially for cavalry
Loose formation, single line (as long as possible basically)
now, charge them towards enemy, and when your cavalry makes the impact, quickly put to engage at will and close formation = flanked enemy, morale downed to fing zer0
i own with this :
Archers are perhaps as JRock says a little too weak. They are quite expensive in early times and they don't really do much.
Though if you get specialist archers, such as Longbows and Trebizond Archers things seems to go the other way.
My record with Trebizond Archers, without going into melee was a single unit killing 180 something... That is a lot. And in a previous battle I had three of them killing about 150 each. So never underestimate the power of Archers.
Perhaps my Trebz. were so good because they can fight in melee and thus gained Valour faster than Archers. I don't know, but that is highly likely to me.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
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I fought of a Jihad in Tripoli 3,000 English against 4,500 Egyptians. I was on a steep hill and my longbowmen did a good job cutting down he ranks, especially the Camel Warriors in one concentrated salvo, I knocked down 12 Camel Warriors. In three salvos (by two units) I took the Camel Warriors from 40 to 8 and broke them. The battle was not completely easy however. Their Nubian Spearmen and Saracen Infantry assualted my lines and the Armenian Heavy Cavalry tried to flank me. I had four units of Chivalrous Sergeants in a half-circle. The battle went on for 20 minutes of spearmen pushing back and forth. I finally broke them by sending my Longbowmen (now out of ammo) into the flanks of the enemy spearmen. Total battle took me about 3 hours. Total Enemy dead around 2000 my dead 750. I had a real problem with my Chivalrous Sergeats with level 3 armour, getting exhausted very quickly, even just standing there. My Feudal Sergeants with level 1 armor did a better job of not getting tired.
Nice Enigma...
What other units did you fire on?
If all units are equally good/bad it is not a bad idea to kill about 10-15 men in several targets, this will give your men some local superiority as well as several units are suffering from a moralepenalty.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
I found that horse units seem to take more casualties. Also after the first wave and the massive HTH battles; I concentrated on the Nubians, Saracens, and Militia units to give my line a better chance in HTH. This is easily the toughest battle I have fought. I had four waves actually assault my position. It was only the fact that I was at the far end of the field that I was able to cycle through units and get them in position after each wave. The darn enemy commander did not go down until the third wave. About a third the enemy casualties came when the fourth wave broke and I unleashed some light cavalry to chase them.
Kingmaker
09-16-2002, 19:55
I disagree Kraxis... I find it better to concentrate missle fire on one unit and make 'em run. If the enemy already has shakey morale, this can cause a chain reaction. At the least, it disturbs other units and makes them easier to break. Lastly, if you can concentrate fire on the enemy command unit, DO IT. The easiest way to win a battle where you are outnumbered is to kill th eenemy genral, or make him run. Essentially, if you have 1000-1200 good troops and you can take out the enemy genral, it basically doesn't matter how many bad guys there are... you can beat em.
Kingmaker
That is true.
I usually give the generals unit a good amount of fire, bringing it down to at least 50%, then I spread the fire to cover other important targets.
Some times I target units that on the paper is less important then others. For instance I normally fire on Urban Militia over Spearmen. Why? Because of their bad armour and their shaky morale. Spearmen can take a suprisingly large amount of fire and still fight effectively for a long time. That can be devastating if the enemy uses the Militia to flank you. On the other hand if you deplete the Militia they will be reluctant to engage you.
I try to leave the heaviest units alone with normal archers, they simply don't do enough damage against them.
And I always fire into groups of units, I will even take my archers off the general/king/heir to get the full effect of overlapping of units.
In one salvo by four Longbows I managed to get from a third green (in killratiobar) to full green. It was three units of Feudal Sergeants and two units of Archers falling over each other.
In the specific case of the Longbows I always try to fire on the heaviest unit, they tend to stand for too long, and the Longbows is an easy way to kill them. Cavalry comes next, unless they are Royals, then they are prime targets.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Those of you talking about valour3 archers must be playing 99,999florin games online because the rest of us playing 5k-7k florin sure aren't going to take 6 valour3 archer units. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Enigma,
I believe you do get more kills per volley on a cav unit than on an inf unit of the same armor level because the cav is a bigger target. At the same time, cav can move fast and archers have a tough time hitting a moving target unless it is moving away from them. It looks like archers tend to overshoot their target, and are more effective firing at deep formations. I haven't done any tests in MTW, but archer kills in WE/MI tests showed 60% kills for each additional armor level at the low end of armor 0, 1 and 2. It seems to me that archers shooting at heavily armored troops pretty much wastes the arrows.
Red Inquisition
09-16-2002, 21:35
If the target is moving I have noticed a very large decrease in amout of people killed.
Last night I was playing the Byz in the late period. I took one of the close rebel provinces. While besigeing the castle I hade a revolt that consisted of spearmen and archers. I had 2 kat units 2 trez archers and some byz infantry. I was out numbers 2:1. I set up on a low hill with my archers out in front. As the rebels walked towards me I tried to use my archers to break up their formation. You could see the arrows going over the line of archers that I was shooting at.
It was not until the archers stopped to fire on me that I hit them. I think this is because the higher angle that the archers fire at. Crossbowmen should not suffer from overshooting because they fire at a more flat angle.
Puzz how right you are, I have too found that non-longbows are very ineffective against heavily armoured units. I don't use my fire on them any more.
That makes the Turcoman Foot good, as they have Armour 3 and shields making them top at 4 (and then some more when you upgrade).
They are perfect for archer battles, but nothing more really.
JRock, who are you talking to? Not me I suppose, as I agree that Archers are a little expensive.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Red Inquisition,
The problem with the archers not hitting moving targets is a combination of several things. The primary problem is that they do not lead their target. They aim as though the target is not moving, and that combines with the slow velocity and high trajectory to make them miss if the target moves. Now that problem should diminish when the target gets closer because the trajectory is flatter and travel time shorter. However, they will still mostly miss a target advancing toward them because the game plots a trajectory that tends to overshoot. This might be a feature to allow cavalry to run under the hail of arrows. If the target turns and moves away, that overshoot now helps and you can see a big increase in the kills/volley. I find archers are most effective at full range on stationary targets. It makes sense that they would be more effective on stationary targets. The only thing that seems a little excessive to me is that tendency to overshoot which lowers their effectiveness at shorter ranges. The relatively flat trajectory weapons like crossbows and guns do not suffer from that problem or, if they do, it's much less and not noticable.
Vlah Rebel
09-27-2002, 02:28
Well archers and esspecialy crossbowmen are very good in large battles against somewhat advanced units .Iwas plaing theturks and i got charge by a german crusade of 3200 men some 1000 peasents but also 1000 order foot soldier i only had abou 1300 men about 800 archers horse archers and other missle units the first teutonic knights never made to my lines and although they were about 300 knights only about 70 survived the spermen and rest of the infantry charged next and although they almost broke me and i remained with only 550 men and was almost sure that if they charge me again i'm cooked i watched their peasnts charge me and as they approached they suddenly turned when i charged them i did'n,t even manage too kill one.
Vlah Rebel
09-27-2002, 02:30
Sorry for my long sentences and eaten letters.
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