View Full Version : Attack on Ghaza
Nobunaga
03-05-2008, 10:53
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6139968.stm
Discuss...
Nobunaga
03-05-2008, 11:41
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7272329.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7269154.stm
Terrible and all but what is Israel supposed to, Hamas will never stop launching rockets the need to kill is too strong.
Tristuskhan
03-05-2008, 13:46
Well, something else, obviously... What can Israel do if Israel stops killing civilians uselessly? (and the same for Palestine(s)).
Well, something else, obviously... What can Israel do if Israel stops killing civilians uselessly? (and the same for Palestine(s)).
Something else, like what? Every time they retreat the rockets start flying again can't blame Israel for trying to put a stop to it, if that costs a few human shields then so be it, isn't Israel that's hiding behind their civilians, they stand in front of theirs.
HoreTore
03-05-2008, 14:26
Something else, like what? Every time they retreat the rockets start flying again can't blame Israel for trying to put a stop to it, if that costs a few human shields then so be it, isn't Israel that's hiding behind their civilians, they stand in front of theirs.
Have you noticed that the rockets tend to start flying when they respond like this too?
Have you noticed that the rockets tend to start flying when they respond like this too?
When they leave? Yes, I did. That wasn't what you meant of course but rockets land on Israel every day regardless of what it does. They shouldn't leave if people want to call that occupation that is fine, because that's what it would be, but it's a necesary evil I think. I feel sorry for the sandwiched ordinary palestinians but Israel doesn't have to put up with all this.
HoreTore
03-05-2008, 14:41
When they leave? Yes, I did. That wasn't what you meant of course but rockets land on Israel every day regardless of what it does. They shouldn't leave if people want to call that occupation that is fine, because that's what it would be, but it's a necesary evil I think. I feel sorry for the sandwiched ordinary palestinians but Israel doesn't have to put up with all this.
Hmm, the jews in Israel are mostly immigrants, I wonder if you will support the muslims too if they decide to declare a new state in Holland?
Vladimir
03-05-2008, 14:42
I thought Gaza was still a castle. :stupido2:
iow: Meh :shrug:
Hmm, the jews in Israel are mostly immigrants, I wonder if you will support the muslims too if they decide to declare a new state in Holland?
Of course I won't, don't want to go into that, I don't know nearly enough of what people that do have written dozens of novels about so I won't pretend I do, I think we should focus on how we, well they, can stop Hamas from firing rockets and imho all options have been tried.
Pannonian
03-05-2008, 15:53
Of course I won't, don't want to go into that, I don't know nearly enough of what people that do have written dozens of novels about so I won't pretend I do, I think we should focus on how we, well they, can stop Hamas from firing rockets and imho all options have been tried.
Not all options. I remember discussing this with you last year, and suggesting some ideas. IIRC I said that Hamas was, back then, currently in politically victorious mood, and that it would be a good idea for Israel to seize the moment and engage in political discussion with them. I also said that, if this opportunity wasn't used, then either the political wing will once more be overtaken by the paramilitary wing, resulting in renewed violence, or worse still, Hamas will be broken up if the IDF went in in force, leaving Israel with no-one to talk to and rockets still flying.
I remember, but that has been tried as well, there have been secret meetings between Israeli and Hamas military leaders, where the Israeli's concluded that there was room for negotiation. But I don't think Hamas is as a tightly structured organisation such as the IRA, where anyone is really in control. Take the rockets, they know they can't win but they fire them anyway, is it really a political goal they are persuing?
Pannonian
03-05-2008, 16:27
I remember, but that has been tried as well, there have been secret meetings between Israeli and Hamas military leaders, where the Israeli's concluded that there was room for negotiation. But I don't think Hamas is as a tightly structured organisation such as the IRA, where anyone is really in control. Take the rockets, they know they can't win but they fire them anyway, is it really a political goal they are persuing?
The British model is what Israel should be pursuing. Show Hamas's audience that the political route produces results. Take blows if necessary to avoid strengthening the paramilitary wing with retaliation. Win over the political wing, then use them to help push down the paramilitary wing. Even if the organisation is fragmented to some extent, it was still sufficiently centralised for this approach to work. But that was given up when Israel imposed the embargo. After the sanctions, there is no way the political wing of Hamas will come close to regaining ascendancy for the foreseeable future. Yet another example of Israel acting within its rights as a nation state to protect itself, but actually doing worse in the long run. Thank goodness my governments were less short-sighted.
But Gaza is the battlefield of a propaganda-war and whatever feeds the flame will continue to do so. Israel does exactly what they want them to do, and they will ensure that Israel will continue to do what they want it to do, go in and shoot stuff, but that's the only way. If they can blow hamas up from within, what remains of it will be blown up from within is well, and we didn't get anywhere. We aren't getting anywhere now, but with an occupationforce it can be kept to a minimum.
HoreTore
03-05-2008, 17:35
Take the rockets, they know they can't win but they fire them anyway, is it really a political goal they are persuing?
Of course they can. History have plenty of examples of superpowers being defeated by people flinging rock(et)s at them. Partial or complete. Most rebellions/guerilla wars start off like this, and many of them have won. The russian revolution, for example, started by terrorist actions like assassinations, bank robberies, bombings etc.
Of course they can. History have plenty of examples of superpowers being defeated by people flinging rock(et)s at them. Partial or complete. Most rebellions/guerilla wars start off like this, and many of them have won. The russian revolution, for example, started by terrorist actions like assassinations, bank robberies, bombings etc.
Let me fill you in on what we discussed earlier, Pannonian brought up that talking to Hamas was a good idea because it's a single entity in contrast with the various sections that make the life of america in Iraq so difficult, completily won me over but is it really a single entity, as in being a well organised machine, it is probably more of a gang that's supported by the powers beyond any influence of Israel. They can easily maintain that situation, and the whole islamic world is looking at this tiny piece of desert.
HoreTore
03-05-2008, 17:54
Well, the russian revolutionary movement certainly did not start out as a single, coordinated movement, and they were divided even when they succeeded.
Well, the russian revolutionary movement certainly did not start out as a single, coordinated movement, and they were divided even when they succeeded.
They are trying to isolate Israel, and the weapon is propaganda. I take these russian revolutionary's used tactics as well, maybe others but no tv and internet then, but probably close in it's own way. Can't believe so many fall for it. Even more amazing how the jew-runned media is campaigning against the islam but that's a sidethought.
HoreTore
03-05-2008, 18:19
They are trying to isolate Israel, and the weapon is propaganda. I take these russian revolutionary's used tactics as well, maybe others but no tv and internet then, but probably close in it's own way. Can't believe so many fall for it..
huh?
The Israeli government consists of a bunch of oversized babies.
"You killed five citizens of my country, now I'll five of yours." :scastle3:
Since Israel is supposed to be the "civilized" nation in the region, they should act civilized too.
huh?
huh what? Be a little more specific did it came from your belly or your lungs
HoreTore
03-05-2008, 18:46
huh what? Be a little more specific did it came from your belly or your lungs
As in "huh? What do you mean?"...
Something else, like what? Every time they retreat the rockets start flying again can't blame Israel for trying to put a stop to it, if that costs a few human shields then so be it, isn't Israel that's hiding behind their civilians, they stand in front of theirs.
Too bad they are only getting their childish revenges and have no fond idea of living peacefully next to their Palestinian neighbours. ~:rolleyes:
As in "huh? What do you mean?"...
Well I said it very clearly Israel is being isolated in a propaganda-war.
Pannonian
03-05-2008, 19:20
Let me fill you in on what we discussed earlier, Pannonian brought up that talking to Hamas was a good idea because it's a single entity in contrast with the various sections that make the life of america in Iraq so difficult, completily won me over but is it really a single entity, as in being a well organised machine, it is probably more of a gang that's supported by the powers beyond any influence of Israel. They can easily maintain that situation, and the whole islamic world is looking at this tiny piece of desert.
Well it was enough of a centralised entity at that point. Hamas had won the last elections, they'd successfully expelled the Fatah armed forces from Gaza but the paramilitaries were still, at the time at least, content to allow the political wing to speak for them. It wasn't the best possible time for Israel to talk to them, as they'd just enjoyed military success that might have gone to their heads, but it was probably the last chance in quite a while for the politicians to assert themselves over the fighters. I warned at the time, IIRC in a reply to Seamus, that Israel had to take the chance then or the extremists will take over.
This past year proves, yet again, that wielding the stick of moral outrage without the carrot of political compromise just doesn't work. Complain all you want about how Israel is expected to yield on everything while the pansy liberals give the Palestinians all the leeway they want, but the fact remains that the Palestinians aren't in any position to do anything at all. The only thing they can proactively do is throw stones or fire rockets around, and not very effectively at that, and so that's what they do. Israel is the only party with the power to make anything happen, so any effective solution is going to rely far more on Israeli action than Palestinian.
Well it was enough of a centralised entity at that point. Hamas had won the last elections, they'd successfully expelled the Fatah armed forces from Gaza but the paramilitaries were still, at the time at least, content to allow the political wing to speak for them.
Good but it isn't like we are raising a child
Crazed Rabbit
03-05-2008, 20:26
Huh. Apparently when you ceaselessly launch rockets at another state, they eventually get mad and try to kill you.
Even more amazing is that some people are calling that action 'childish'. Too foolish to warrant a response.
Pannonian - by British model do you mean the Northern Ireland peace process? You are aware the situations are hardly comparable?
And what gives you cause to believe the political wing of Hamas is any different from the military wing?
CR
Apparently when you ceaselessly launch rockets at another state, they eventually get mad and try to kill you.
Are you talking about Palestinian rockets into Israel or Isreali rockets into Palestinine?
Israel vs. Palestine: Round 6437
Ding!
:boxing: C'mon, lemme at 'em :boxing:
Tribesman
03-05-2008, 21:10
Even more amazing is that some people are calling that action 'childish'. Too foolish to warrant a response.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Talking of foolish , you do realise why the action is childish don't ya rabbit ? It is because it doesn't work , they know it doesn't work , they have seen many many times that it doesn't work , but like an obstinate child they are going to ignore all they should have learnt and make another doomed attempt .
The funny thing is that many of the people of Israel are not as childishly stupid as their government is , the people of Israel want talks with Hamas not another doomed incursion .
The people know that every failed venture weakens the State further and makes them look very bad , it is about time the Israeli government grew up and acted accordingly .
ICantSpellDawg
03-05-2008, 21:31
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Talking of foolish , you do realise why the action is childish don't ya rabbit ? It is because it doesn't work , they know it doesn't work , they have seen many many times that it doesn't work , but like an obstinate child they are going to ignore all they should have learnt and make another doomed attempt .
The funny thing is that many of the people of Israel are not as childishly stupid as their government is , the people of Israel want talks with Hamas not another doomed incursion .
The people know that every failed venture weakens the State further and makes them look very bad , it is about time the Israeli government grew up and acted accordingly .
I agree - the Israeli actions are heavy-handed and do not work. They simply put more fuel on the fire.
I support them in defending themselves, but not by killing 100 people (46 of whom probably had nothing to do with it.) Do you see Tribesman? I support the Colombian action, I support coalition action in Iraq and Afghanistan, but not these types of draconian actions which seem to target men, women and children carelessly and out of vengeance.
Pannonian
03-05-2008, 21:47
Pannonian - by British model do you mean the Northern Ireland peace process? You are aware the situations are hardly comparable?
And what gives you cause to believe the political wing of Hamas is any different from the military wing?
CR
I always get this riposte of how Northern Ireland is a completely different picture to Israel-Palestine. And yet, despite basing my perspective on what I know of the Northern Ireland process, my predictions of what would happen have hardly ever been wrong.
BTW, have you forgotten the trip some former IRA members made to Palestine a couple of years ago? I remember talking about how former Republican hardliners drove the switch to a political approach while they were still in prison, and people dismissing that story with the comment that Israel-Palestine is completely different from Northern Ireland. Then less than a month after I wrote that post, a combined group of Fatah and Hamas members in Israeli prison made such an offer, backed by Fatah and those elements of Hamas which were based in Palestine. Some time later, that IRA trip, which happened just before this, came to light. So, is Palestine really that much different from Northern Ireland?
Tribesman
03-05-2008, 23:43
Do you see Tribesman? I support the Colombian action, I support coalition action in Iraq and Afghanistan, but not these types of draconian actions which seem to target men, women and children carelessly and out of vengeance.
Well strictly speaking its the wrong topic , but since you mention it Tuff and it does kinda link to options being put forward in this topic ... As you and your government support the Columbian action can you name other governments (apart from Columbia) that support the action ?
Can you name governments that are really really annoyed at Columbia since killing the negotiator in Equador that the governments were dealing with through the Equadoran government have sent the talks right down the pan .
Can you see the similarity ?
Two nations , both key regional allies of the US , both need to talk to sort their problems , both do get involved in talks to varying extents ...but then send the whole thing down the pan and its America that says "thats the right thing to do " .
Its a bit bloody silly isn't it , one could certainly call it childish .
Pann regarding that last post of yours , do you remember the Fenians in Columbia ? the ones that said they were there discussing the peace process with FARC ?
What are the sticking points in the Columbian process ?
Is it demilitarisation , prisoner releases , disarmament , political representation , partial amnesty ...kinda just like somewhere else eh .
After having studied this topic in high school Modern History, who cares, in all honesty if they want to bash each others brains out let them do it.
After having studied this topic in high school Modern History, who cares, in all honesty if they want to bash each others brains out let them do it.
For the most part, I would agree. But my government has its nose (a nose I pay for and that is supposed to represent my interests) so far up Israel`s backside it drives me bonkers. I`m involved even if I don`t want to be. Therefore, being involved, I have decided to choose sides, and given the evidence, I side with the Palestinians.
Hence, to the delight of some of my fellow Orsters, my posts. :sunny:
There are people that consider snakes to be great pets
Nobunaga
03-06-2008, 10:16
The Israeli government consists of a bunch of oversized babies.
"You killed five citizens of my country, now I'll five of yours."
Since Israel is supposed to be the "civilized" nation in the region, they should act civilized too.
This should be:
"You killed five citizens of my country, now I'll five hundred of yours"
Incongruous
03-06-2008, 10:22
Huh. Apparently when you ceaselessly launch rockets at another state, they eventually get mad and try to kill you.
Even more amazing is that some people are calling that action 'childish'. Too foolish to warrant a response.
Pannonian - by British model do you mean the Northern Ireland peace process? You are aware the situations are hardly comparable?
And what gives you cause to believe the political wing of Hamas is any different from the military wing?
CR
Know what ele is interesting?
That when you perform a hostile take over of a peoples' home they tend not to like it. They get even more angry when the rest of the world seems to think it's ok.:2thumbsup:
When these invaders are better armed than the native inhabitants, the natives use tactics whereby they can hurt quickly then dissapear quickly.
Don't give me the old tome of the U.S in Israel, "they don't target civilians" that's bollocks, and it does not matter to those whom lose family. They still don't have fathers and mothers.
So Rabbit, what would you do if the chinese decided to use some obscure and old book to claim america and started building apartments on top of you're life?
Nobunaga
03-06-2008, 10:30
Terrible and all but what is Israel supposed to, Hamas will never stop launching rockets the need to kill is too strong.
This is not the case... Both parties are responsible. Hamas launching rockets from ghaza is also a retaliation of Israel's military acts in Palestine.
This is individual terrorism vs State terrorism.
Nobunaga
03-06-2008, 10:43
the need to kill is too strong
lol. You actually believe this.
You think that Palestinians have a need to kill... :bounce:
lol. You actually believe this.
You think that Palestinians have a need to kill... :bounce:
Well yes
Nobunaga
03-06-2008, 11:05
Well yes
hmmm. I believe oppression causes retaliation.
Retaliation, funny one. It's Israel that's on the receiving end. The Israeli's are no angels but let's not forget who declared war on who.
Caerfanan
03-06-2008, 11:57
Then some people would say that the creation of Israel itself was an invasion. that's why too many palestinians still think that they have to retake their land... And that too many Israeli still want to "oversecure their borders".
Too many innocent people die, there... Because of too many stupid ones.
The Israeli's are no angels but let's not forget who declared war on who.
Indeed, let's not forget the wars began only after an invasion of Palestine by outsiders who then demanded the country they invaded be carved up like a roast by the UN, and who from (prior to) day one, made it abundantly clear they were going to take the rest of the country for themselves as well, by force if necessary, in violation of the UN declaration they so desperately sought in the first place.
Palestinians didn't invade Europe, none of them left where they were born and tried to partition Poland or Russia, but Europeans did invade Palestine with the express intent of taking for themselves.
That's when the war started.
War started when it was declared.
Too foolish to warrant a response.
If anything is foolish, it is to repeat ones own mistakes rather than learning from them.
War started when it was declared.
It's useless semantics if it becomes a situation where there is no fight simply because the guy who's hitting you hasn't said he's hitting you.
As soon as he hits you it's a fight, whether he says so or not.
It's useless semantics if it becomes a situation where there is no fight simply because the guy who's hitting you hasn't said he's hitting you.
As soon as he hits you it's a fight, whether he says so or not.
The whole world was shaked up en rearanged after WW1 and WW2 that is common practise. It's useless to condemn that, and a bit silly in the greater picture. Would the muslims have any more legitimacy to hold these lands then the current Israelis? They would hold them had they won but they didn't.
The whole world was shaked up en rearanged after WW1 and WW2 that is common practise. It's useless to condemn that, and a bit silly in the greater picture. Would the muslims have any more legitimacy to hold these lands then the current Israelis? They would hold them had they won but they didn't.
Zionist ambitions in Palestine predated WWI and came to fruition after WWII. Those ambitions were temporarily affected by the wars, but had there been no wars, the colonization would still have occurred. Also, the wars redrew boundaries, but populations were not displaced thousand of miles away to create new countries out of thin air. But Israel was created this way.
It's not silly to condemn colonial ambitions that threaten indigenous populations. Getting the Belgians out of the Congo, the French out of Indochina and the British out of India were all good things. As society "progressed" in the post WWII era, we were supposed to have less colonial adventures. Anytime someone from Country A moves to Country B and tells the guy already there to get out because he wants it for himself, it's a bad idea.
Then what are you doing in Canada?
Then what are you doing in Canada?
Cutting trees. :sunny:
But to answer the truer meaning of your question, I admit without hesitation that I am on stolen land acquired by violence and scheming. But there are different circumstances at play here.
First is my admission that I am on stolen land. That in itself is something. Also, the land here was stolen when half the population still thought the Earth was flat, monsters roamed the seas, and people peed in any empty corner of the room. Not in an educated, post atomic age when uncivilized colonial behaviour was recognized as such.
Second, I respect and support the rights of native peoples to sue the bejesus out of the federal government and win land claims settlements, the right of native peoples to have their own legal system (as long as it does not violate the human rights provisions of the Canadian Constitution), and the rights of natives to sue both provincial and federal governments, as well as the church, and demand public apologies and monetary damages for the systematic abuse of native children that occurred in Canada.
Third, I teach my kids what I just wrote out here so that they will know the reality of the past and their obligations in the future.
Fourth, I have published articles stating all of the above and signed my name to them.
The situation here is far from perfect. But the Canadian justice system has awarded native peoples legal rights over massive tracts of land and awarded monetary damages and assistance settlements that run well into the billions of dollars (my tax money). We also recognize the native population as the true people of the land and that status is taught in school, is recognized by law, and is even sung in our national anthem.
We still have a long way to go to create a truly equitable system, but we are trying. And here in the 21st century, we sure as shoot don`t build concentration camps and imprison hundreds of thousands of people and subject them to arbitrary arrest, torture and imprisonment, all as part of a lie to hide the shame of our past.
I am sure everyone is thrilled looking back. It was a cheap remark of me, but a very easy one if we are to hold Israel responsible by our own standards. That inclused Canada.
Crazed Rabbit
03-07-2008, 00:19
Hamas hails a terrorist attack on students (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1204546422275&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull), in which eight were killed, as 'heroic', and a 'normal response' (http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=080306202237.q8obomzk.php).
I just want everyone to be clear exactly what Hamas is. Everyone advocating some 'realpolitik' solution needs to realize that Hamas is not interested in negotiating for anything in good faith.
That is who rules Gaza - a group of murderers who cheer the death of students.
Or does merely being the underdog make it alright?
Tell me, Beirut, when did the leaders of Israel call the killing of Palestinian children a heroic action?
Second, I respect and support the rights of native peoples to sue the bejesus out of the federal government and win land claims settlements, the right of native peoples to have their own legal system (as long as it does not violate the human rights provisions of the Canadian Constitution), and the rights of natives to sue both provincial and federal governments, as well as the church, and demand public apologies and monetary damages for the systematic abuse of native children that occurred in Canada.
But you don't support their right to actually regain control of the nation, as in India and other examples you listed. The main power structure of the Canadian government still controls all the important things.
CR
Pannonian
03-07-2008, 00:45
Hamas hails a terrorist attack on students (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1204546422275&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull), in which eight were killed, as 'heroic', and a 'normal response' (http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=080306202237.q8obomzk.php).
I just want everyone to be clear exactly what Hamas is. Everyone advocating some 'realpolitik' solution needs to realize that Hamas is not interested in negotiating for anything in good faith.
That is who rules Gaza - a group of murderers who cheer the death of students.
Or does merely being the underdog make it alright?
CR, what I've always asked, is not who is right, but what are you trying to do, and does it work? Whatever it is you're advocating, has it been tried in the past? Has it worked in the past? If it's not worked in the past, what makes you think it would work now?
So, CR, answer these questions.
What are you trying to do?
How would you achieve it?
Is there any evidence, from related cases, that this would work?
Tell me, Beirut, when did the leaders of Israel call the killing of Palestinian children a heroic action?
I don't think they ever have. But I have heard Israeli leaders justify killing civilians, including children.
What happended today was murder and the people who did it should be treated as murderers.
So, in the game of semantics, I'll grant you that the Palestinians come off very badly, but I submit that Israel still kills more children than the Palestininas do. And regardless of the language used afterwards, a dead kid is still a dead kid, and mom's going to cry over the body no matter whether it was heroism or justification that blew her kid to bits.
But you don't support their right to actually regain control of the nation, as in India and other examples you listed. The main power structure of the Canadian government still controls all the important things.
It's still Canadian soil, but huge areas of land, and I do mean huge, are under their authority. No roads go through, no resources are removed, no condos are built, nothing without their permission and a whole whack of cash going their way.
A mayor and some developers tried to extend a golf course on to land claimed by the Mohawk nation as a burial ground about twenty years ago in Quebec. It led to an armed confrontation, one policeman was killed, and it took the Candian army, who exercised the most incredible fire discipline you have ever seen - meaning no shots were fired - to bring the situation under control. No golf course was built. You don't mess with native land in Canada.
Crazed Rabbit
03-07-2008, 01:40
It's not just semantics. Words have power, and you know that.
You act as though Hamas is some group of downtrodden people who want to end oppression, but they aren't. They don't want an equal peace with Israel. That's why they call murdering students heroic, why they fire rockets at Israeli towns. The majority of what they do is, according to you, murdering.
So why do you support them against Israel?
So, CR, answer these questions.
What are you trying to do?
How would you achieve it?
Is there any evidence, from related cases, that this would work?
I'm not trying to do anything, but I wouldn't mind Israel going full bore into Gaza and maintaining strict control. The people there have proven incapable of ruling themselves in a civilized manner.
CR
Pannonian
03-07-2008, 02:12
I'm not trying to do anything, but I wouldn't mind Israel going full bore into Gaza and maintaining strict control. The people there have proven incapable of ruling themselves in a civilized manner.
CR
So has that been tried before? Is there any evidence that this would work?
Note that I'm avoiding judgement here on who's right and who's wrong, but merely asking what your desired result is, how you plan to achieve it, and what the chances of success are.
ajaxfetish
03-07-2008, 02:49
It's not silly to condemn colonial ambitions that threaten indigenous populations. Getting the Belgians out of the Congo, the French out of Indochina and the British out of India were all good things.
There are more more than one kind of colonialism. Belgian Congo, French Indochina, and British India are not comparable to Jewish Israel because of the existence of Belgium, France, and Britain. If the Israelis were to 'get out' of Palestine, where would they go? They'd be in the same position that got them there in the first place, and I certainly can't imagine any good coming of that.
Fragony's comparison of the situation to that of Canada (or for that matter, the US) is more apt though still not equivalent. You'll notice that in our countries, even though the situation for natives has improved, we invaders are still here, and even in charge. Any solution to the Israel/Palestine problem needs to provide a way for both Israelis and Palestinians to continue living in Palestine. Of course there'll need to be a lot more maturity shown by both sides, which I don't imagine will be forthcoming any time soon. Meanwhile, it's a tragic situation that I don't know how to resolve.
I'm torn on how closely we can relate the situation to that of Northern Ireland. I can't think of any more similar situation, and the eventual sanguine outcome there is a nice comparison as it suggests hope for the Palestinian situation. But the differences are pretty significant, too, such as Britain not being surrounded by belligerent, devout Catholic nations far larger and wealthier than it during the Troubles.
Ajax
It's not just semantics. Words have power, and you know that.
Absolutely. Words have great power. But there limitations to that power. A grieving mother, and I apologise for belabouring the point, will not see the power of words as anything but semantics when it's her kid going in the ground.
You act as though Hamas is some group of downtrodden people who want to end oppression, but they aren't. They don't want an equal peace with Israel. That's why they call murdering students heroic, why they fire rockets at Israeli towns. The majority of what they do is, according to you, murdering.
I'm not sure I've ever sided with Hamas per se, I side with the Palestinians.
Likewise I think George Bush and his gang are inhuman criminals, but I love Americans.
So why do you support them against Israel?
I support the Palestinians fighting against Israel. I think they are an oppressed people with no hope. I think they've been screwed over by everyone, everywhere for decades and no one is truly helping them. The whole peace process is an illusion, a fabrication as unreal as the friendship their Arab brothers profess for them. As a people they have a right to survive, and if that means taking military action against Israel, then I support that. I do not, however, agree that Israeli civilians should be targeted. Murder is murder, even in war.
There are more more than one kind of colonialism. Belgian Congo, French Indochina, and British India are not comparable to Jewish Israel because of the existence of Belgium, France, and Britain.
I think they are comparable. In each case, people from one country went to another country and said, "What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine." Isreal was peopled by citizens of other countries. Russians, Germans, Poles, all manner of peoples who lived in other countries, decided to hop on a boat or a plane, leave where they were born and grew up, and set up shop on someone else's land, claiming it as their own.
If the Israelis were to 'get out' of Palestine, where would they go? They'd be in the same position that got them there in the first place, and I certainly can't imagine any good coming of that.
Israel exists. It was a mistake to create it in the first place, but it's there now and displacing millions of people just isn't going to happen. Now a solution is needed. A big one.
Strike For The South
03-07-2008, 04:00
I say let'em blow each other to bits of some dumb cults. See if I care
Tribesman
03-07-2008, 04:05
Hey Rabbit how is the phrase
a normal response slightly different from
a normal response to the crimes of the occupier and its murder of civilians,
BTW did you see the protests by the settlers at the school ?
were the shouting
A Death to murderers
B Death to terrorists
C Death to Hamas
D Death to arabs
If the answer is D then how are they any different from those others you condemn .
Oh and just one query , that story you link to , it says that the soldier who shot the terrorist rushed from home when he heard the shooting , it doesn't mention that the person who shot the murderer was already at the school , was a student and is a soldier (I was quite surprised by that really given the ongoing controversy with the yshiva students and the military).
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/961696.html
This is what makes them different, all demographic reasons aside, a lot just want their 72 goats.
Tribesman
03-07-2008, 08:37
Ah well every cloud has a silver lining , at least we can get a small laugh out of this recent tragedy .
America walks out of a UN meeting that was to issue a condemnation of the killing of civilians in this latest episode , apparently the motion was blocked because certain countries did the same as America did the other day .
Ah the good old Negroponte principle , apparently america only likes principles when they are imposed on its own terms , when others use those same terms they throw a hissy fit .
Speaking of civilians, how come only Israeli's get killed but never Israeli civilians. At least in our newspapers that is, odd.
So has that been tried before? Is there any evidence that this would work?
Note that I'm avoiding judgement here on who's right and who's wrong, but merely asking what your desired result is, how you plan to achieve it, and what the chances of success are.
If they ever have tried or will try it in the future, it will not work. Peace starts with peace.
That does not mean that the great Isreali fences should be demolished ASAP, since they seem to do a good job at keeping the virgin chasers at bay. :2thumbsup:
No, stop the pointless attacks in the Palestinian lands who can only make the whole situation worse.
Speaking of civilians, how come only Israeli's get killed but never Israeli civilians. At least in our newspapers that is, odd.
The media here almost always differentiates between Israeli civilians and military. The only reasons I can think of for not differentiating, would be a lack of information, bad reporting, or a bias that seeks to slant the story in a certain way.
A story that cites, for example, "Ten Israelis killed by rocket" makes Israel look like the victim and the Palestinians like murderers. Switch that to "Ten Israeli soldiers killed by rocket" and it makes the Isrealis look vulnerable and the Palestinians like effective soldiers.
I'm not saying that's what is happening, bit I'm sure it has happened.
Not here, they do mention it when it are palestinian citizens, it's obvious bias.
Vladimir
03-07-2008, 13:54
https://img165.imageshack.us/img165/5330/20080306palsparty01qz8.jpg
Guess who these people are and what they're celebrating.
Ser Clegane
03-07-2008, 13:56
Hmmm ... :thinking: ... Scotsmen, celebrating yesterday's victory of the Glasgow Rangers?
They found that candybar they thought they lost?
Seamus Fermanagh
03-07-2008, 16:29
You've all heard the arguments. Israel was a land formed to give Jews a place of their own to keep them from being the targeted subgroup in a hundred other countries. There was no Palestine save as a label on an Ottoman map, so how could we steal a country that never was from a people who no different culturally from those of a half dozen surrounding states? Others argue that the UN carved up land and gave it to illegal immigrants, taking it from the people who'd lived, worked, bred there for centuries -- regardless of who claimed to "own" this land. A culture and a people were shoved aside wihtout even a real say in the decision. Why would such a people not fight to regain what had been theirs for centuries? Favor whichever theory you would. In quest of a resolution, it matters little.
Pannonian is asking the only question that really matters. Do you want resolution, or the same-old/same-old?
Current methods of retaliation intermingled with negotiation are producing an ongonig low-level conflict which will never truly stabilize. Successful negotiation with the surrounding states has produced usable results. However key elements of both parties in the Isareli/Palestinian "dispute" want all the land of the West Bank, Judea, Gaza, Samaria, and Galilee under one dominion and are not particularly interested in the other party's claim. There is no real way to establish a dmz and leave one another alone as has occurred, de facto, with Egypt and Syria.
If Israel seeks resolution they must choose:
a) complete a proper conquest of the region by ejecting/exterminating anyone who would contest control of the territory in question along with anyone living there who does not avidly accept Israeli rule.
b) a passive defensive strategy that uses fences, guardposts, counter-intelligence etc. to prevent attacks where possible. A strategy that arrests and try as civilian criminals those caught committing crimes in territory commonly thought of as Isreali [note: I mean accepted as such in practice. I am fully aware that many on the Palestinian side officially deny all territorial claims by Isareal] -- but a strategy that does not retaliate. The stance would be: we'll protect our ownwhere we can, but we will not hunt you or harm your children or attack your homes. This would involve Israel absorbing numerous casualties for years-- without a counterattack -- until the militant components of Fatah and Hamas are marginalized by arab/palestinian public opinion as "baby-killers" and lose so much political power that the pro-negotiation political wings gain ascendency and broker an agreement that they have a real interest in keeping.
Both alternatives carry a high political price and Israel has no political party or movement of a sufficient strength to absorb the political cost of either strategy while seeing that strategy to completion. Therefore, things will continue as they are.
Crazed Rabbit
03-07-2008, 16:40
I'm not sure I've ever sided with Hamas per se, I side with the Palestinians.
I support the Palestinians fighting against Israel. I think they are an oppressed people with no hope. I think they've been screwed over by everyone, everywhere for decades and no one is truly helping them. The whole peace process is an illusion, a fabrication as unreal as the friendship their Arab brothers profess for them. As a people they have a right to survive, and if that means taking military action against Israel, then I support that. I do not, however, agree that Israeli civilians should be targeted. Murder is murder, even in war.
Oh please, Hamas is the Palestinians in Gaza. They were elected and now supported by Palestinians. There's no way you can 'support Palestinians' without support the group that completely leads the Gaza strip.
Unless you say you 'support them' but disagree with everything they do.
Tell me, how does attacking Israel make it easier for them to survive? It seems like exactly the opposite in reality.
FYI, Hamas claimed responsibility:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080307/ts_nm/palestinians_israel_dc
CR
Oh please, Hamas is the Palestinians in Gaza.
I'm afraid that is the sad truth. And the ones that aren't are dead. I think Israel should retake Ghaza and keep it. And continue to do what it is doing now, trying to pick of the leadership whenever possible and without being too squimish. It's the middle east if you show weakness you are dead.
Oh please, Hamas is the Palestinians in Gaza. They were elected and now supported by Palestinians.
Hitler is Germany and Germany is Hitler. Is that it?
There's no way you can 'support Palestinians' without support the group that completely leads the Gaza strip.
I completely and utterly disagree. That viewpoint is far too simplistic and convenient, and acknowledges no individuality of thought or ideals amongst a people. It's the exact same thing as saying that because Bush supports the war in Iraq, all Americans support the war in Iraq. And I'm sure neither of us is naive enough to believe that.
Unless you say you 'support them' but disagree with everything they do.
I disagree with some of what they do. I think targeting civilians is an illegal and immoral act.
Tell me, how does attacking Israel make it easier for them to survive? It seems like exactly the opposite in reality.
No man is bound by any law to stand still and be hit. Even if hitting back seals his fate, it's still his right, and the right thing to do. There is also the truth that many weak blows against a superior foe can have a cumulative effect that benefits the weaker party. History would agree with that.
FYI, Hamas claimed responsibility:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080307/ts_nm/palestinians_israel_dc
Okay.
Vladimir
03-07-2008, 18:15
Did we fight a war against Hitler or Germany? It doesn't matter where individuals stand on an issue only how a nation acts on it.
Tribesman
03-07-2008, 21:46
Oh please, Hamas is the Palestinians in Gaza. They were elected and now supported by Palestinians.
How can you say that when they only got 44% on a 76% turnout ?
If you remember , the main swing away from Fatah in the weeks preceeding the election was due to the corruption scandals .
There's no way you can 'support Palestinians' without support the group that completely leads the Gaza strip.
Yes you can , unless of course you are the sort of muppet who for example hates Americans because Bush is an idiot .
Unless you say you 'support them' but disagree with everything they do.
Nope that don't work either Rabbit , since that would mean you don't support hospitals and food aid .
What you should have said is you " support the alright stuff they do but condemn the nasty stuff " ....but hey I don't want to make thing too complex for ya to understand :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Crazed Rabbit
03-07-2008, 22:28
Hitler is Germany and Germany is Hitler. Is that it?
We fought Germany in WWII.
I completely and utterly disagree. That viewpoint is far too simplistic and convenient, and acknowledges no individuality of thought or ideals amongst a people. It's the exact same thing as saying that because Bush supports the war in Iraq, all Americans support the war in Iraq. And I'm sure neither of us is naive enough to believe that.
Bush does not have complete control of the control; if the Democratic majority congress wanted to, they could cut off funds right now and bring the troops back. He is not the be all and end all of America.
What demonstrations in Gaza have there been against Hamas, against terrorism? Hamas is unopposed in their rule. They direct all the actions in Gaza. All that the Palestinians do, is directed by Hamas.
All of the Palestinian 'resistance' in Gaza is Hamas. Do you support Hamas or Israel in the current conflict? They are the only two actors. Or is it 'I support Hamas but only when they don't try to kill civilians (as they usually do)'?
No man is bound by any law to stand still and be hit. Even if hitting back seals his fate, it's still his right, and the right thing to do. There is also the truth that many weak blows against a superior foe can have a cumulative effect that benefits the weaker party. History would agree with that.
Sheesh. Israel wasn't attacking before, were they?
Strawman argument.
CR
Vladimir
03-07-2008, 22:36
What demonstrations in Gaza have there been against Hamas, against terrorism? Hamas is unopposed in their rule. They direct all the actions in Gaza. All that the Palestinians do, is directed by Hamas
:laugh4: Well Fatah tried in Gaza, but I don't think they were protesting terrorism.
Hmm, maybe if they upgraded their walls it would reduce squalor and decrease unrest. :thinking:
Tribesman
03-08-2008, 01:19
Hamas is unopposed in their rule. They direct all the actions in Gaza. All that the Palestinians do, is directed by Hamas.
Errrr...no , nope and errrr...no , try again Rabbit .
Oh you did try again ....
All of the Palestinian 'resistance' in Gaza is Hamas. ....and once again that is a no .
Do you support Hamas or Israel in the current conflict? They are the only two actors.
wow you really are on a run there , thats another no , well done , keep up the bad work .
Here have a clue Rabbit , or even a couple incase its too hard to get with just one
Which is the Iranian backed damascus based Gaza orientated organisation that has since the unilateral withrawel been launching the rockets into Israel from Gaza?
Which is the group that though it shares some ideologies with Hamas has been involved in some rather nasty and bloody fights with Hamas(just like it was with fatah)?
Which isthe group that refused to back Hamas in the fight against Fatah?(or for that matter which splintergroup from Fatah is still there ?)
Which areas of Gaza does it still control territory in ?
BTW which other groups have still not ceded control of their domains to Hamas in Gaza?
Pannonian
03-08-2008, 01:45
Here have a clue Rabbit , or even a couple incase its too hard to get with just one
Which is the Iranian backed damascus based Gaza orientated organisation that has since the unilateral withrawel been launching the rockets into Israel from Gaza?
Are they still split into Syria Hamas and Gaza Hamas? During that prisoner offer I mentioned in the previous page, Gaza Hamas and the Hamas political wing were in favour of it, but Syria Hamas rejected it. Some time later, the leader of Syria indicated that his faction had changed its mind, and was now supporting it. I can't remember what happened after that.
We fought Germany in WWII.
I know my dad did.
Bush does not have complete control of the control; if the Democratic majority congress wanted to, they could cut off funds right now and bring the troops back. He is not the be all and end all of America.
And we thank God for that every day.
What demonstrations in Gaza have there been against Hamas, against terrorism? Hamas is unopposed in their rule. They direct all the actions in Gaza. All that the Palestinians do, is directed by Hamas.
When a people are ostracized by everyone. When they are lied to by everyone. When they are used by everyone. When they are born in a concentration camp and see their death happening in a concentration camp. When those who lord over them treat them brutally and dehumanize them at every opportunity, it is obvious that they will grasp at any power of authority that represents them and is willing to fight back against their most lethal enemy.
Hamas is a creation of the circumstances the Isrealis inflict upon the Palestinians.
All of the Palestinian 'resistance' in Gaza is Hamas. Do you support Hamas or Israel in the current conflict? They are the only two actors. Or is it 'I support Hamas but only when they don't try to kill civilians (as they usually do)'?
I support the Palestinians. I do not support Israel. I think both sides are wrong when civilians are targeted. I think the Palestinians have every right to attack Israeli military targets.
Sheesh. Israel wasn't attacking before, were they?
Strawman argument.
What's this "Strawman! Strawman!" stuff, drives me nuts. Am I supposed to think I'm the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz and run away?
Israel has been attacking daily since 1948. They've been treating the Palestinians like a lower species for decades, illegally occupying their land, stealing their resources, subjecting their people to torture, murder, arbitrary arrest, and every cruel and inhumane condition one man can put upon another. If any people on Earth have the right to fight back, it's the Palestinians.
Tribesman
03-08-2008, 03:09
Are they still split into Syria Hamas and Gaza Hamas?
Yes , but none of what I wrote relates to that , it relates to other factions and groups that Rabbit missed when he came out with the extremely incorrect "there is only Hamas" line .
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/gaza_cartoons.asp
Pitytude galore hit someone and start crying yourselve disgusting. Sometimes I get the feeling that genocide is underapreciated.
Some of those cartoons were terrible, but one or two were well done.
I like the idea of the article, though, "Yeah, sure we destroyed a whole city block in Gaza and killed a dozen little kids, but those cartoons you're drawing of us are really over the line."
http://www.adl.org/images/arab_anti_semitism/gaza_cartoons/gaza_carrtoons7.jpg
This one is funny. As for the rest, some nerve they have.
LittleGrizzly
03-09-2008, 17:46
Looking at those pictures they are a bit more extreme but suprisingly similar to the kind of propagnada britian put out about germany during WW1 and maybe WW2, when you think that the population of britian resorted to such during WW1 when only the men fighting were being killed, imagine how much worse the propaganda would have been if germans were killing british civilians daily...
Incongruous
03-11-2008, 04:06
I say let'em blow each other to bits of some dumb cults. See if I care
Yes It has worked so well for American security. Like it or not, you're nation is blamed in a big way by the Palestinians for the steeling of their land.
So face up to it.
Again, how have the Palsetinians ever been gien a fair chance of free and fair governance?
Bloody never.
Pathetic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&NR=1
I say let'em blow each other to bits of some dumb cults. See if I care
Probably terrible to say, but I'd inclined to agree.
Strike For The South
03-11-2008, 06:36
Yes It has worked so well for American security. Like it or not, you're nation is blamed in a big way by the Palestinians for the steeling of their land.
So face up to it.
Again, how have the Palsetinians ever been gien a fair chance of free and fair governance?
Bloody never.
Pathetic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&NR=1
I dont have to face anything. I dont care two bits what the Palistinians think of me nor the Israleis. I also dont care what ills my nationed is blamed for. What I do care about is money and secrets and right now Isreal is drianing Americas money and secerts. Gentleman both sides are terrorists one is just better equiped.
"Kill them all let God sort them out" Good riddance to the lot of them
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