Some greek names are wrong ( I think)

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

Well as I said: I think I have reported some mistakes in the greek names
of buildings,units and other.
Especially in the grammar.
Because as they told me many members said that they are greeks
and didn't know at last ancient greek, I'll try to write down as many as I see
because I'm new to this mod.
I'll tell you the same I'm Greek and as all the Greeks I'm taught ancient
greek (hellenistic period - hellenike koine with latin characters).
I'd like any comments refering to this, especially from those
that they have knowledge of ancient greek. (not only standard use of it
but more about the origin of the words).
:yes: :beam: :2thumbsup:

[abou]

Just to let you know, we're not using Koine. We use Attic instead.

[Watchman]

And, erm, where exactly did you report them ?

[PershsNhpios]

You know that scene from Die Hard: Vengeance where Bruce Willis is wearing a sign in an unsavoury part of the city saying;

"I hate African-American citizens"?

Well, this would be as funny as that if it were a movie and you weren't really going to be torn up between the EB team and eaten, Georgie!

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

Ok you said that you use attic..
Do you know which the difference between attic,koine or doric , ionic?
And to say it, I would say that it is pretty wrong to use attic dialect in this
time because the koine was spread through the ancient world.(sorry for the misuse of english language).
I'll try to say an ancient phrase very famous:
"Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ" which dialect is that? And how would be in other dialects?

[blitzkrieg80]

you think you're an authority by virtue of native-born education? :applause: So, everyone in Greece is a professor then, right? You do know that not everything the government/state tells you is handed down from divine origin, correct?

Not only are there no helpful comments made by you (or did you post somewhere else?) as the subject of the thread states- you expect someone to jump through your hoops so you can perform a self-satisfactory 'test' to prove that you know something you haven't bothered to state yet? wha- wha- WHAT?! :bow: sorry, that's too insane, even for me

PS- no need to apologize for your use of English, it's not bad

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

What kind of offence is that?
Do you enjoy showing that answering in that way
it is a little pathetic?
In any case no one has any "divine right" but I'd like
this game to be improved. This is not a test for self- satisfaction
or showing that I'm a professor but with that way I want to
show some things can be better...
If you have any more productive comments will be kind of you.
But this answer didn't show any prudence...
I started from this time to collect some names and it will be soon in this
thread. sorry for waiting..:smash: .

[Hooahguy]

You know that scene from Die Hard: Vengeance where Bruce Willis is wearing a sign in an unsavoury part of the city saying;

"I hate African-American citizens"?

Well, this would be as funny as that if it were a movie and you weren't really going to be torn up between the EB team and eaten, Georgie!
how true.... well, i think im just going to sit back and enjoy the show, seeing that i know nothing of the subject.....:sweatdrop:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

While it's entirely possible there are mistakes, we will indeed be using transliterations of Attic pronunciations and not koine ones. Thrace has a subscript iota - look it up in any classical dictionary. Koine and modern greeks would not pronounce it, but it is pronounced as an iota in classical greek, therefore we will render it as such. By the latter part of the 2nd century BC, it seems as though the verbalization of the subscript had ceased. Classical iota subscripts are sometimes rendered in inscriptions with iotas themselves. Latin loan words like tragoedus and comoedus reflect the pronunciation also in case some additional evidence is required.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Ok you said that you use attic..
Do you know which the difference between attic,koine or doric , ionic?
And to say it, I would say that it is pretty wrong to use attic dialect in this
time because the koine was spread through the ancient world.(sorry for the misuse of english language).
I'll try to say an ancient phrase very famous:
"Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ" which dialect is that? And how would be in other dialects?

Okay, first of all - Koine was not yet there in 272 BC. It develops within our timeframe, and towards the end it gradually replaced Attic as the lingua franca of the 'Hellenic' world. But that was not the case yet in 272 BC, so we don't use Koine. 'sides: Attic is more fun! :beam:

Anyways, we do at times take the liberty to mix in a few other dialects -- though not on the campaign map (yet?) AFAIK. On the battlemap you do get some 'Makedonian', e.g.: Ondres instead of Andres. You might've guessed why&when: the equestrian tradition of the Makedones gets them some 'Makedonian' when cavalry units are called.

Still I wouldn't be surprised if an error was made every now and then, or simply not fixed yet. So feel free to point them out. An EB member may then pick them up and use it to EB's benefit by correcting the mistake, or might argue why it's not a mistake -- I myself am a bit to inactive to do so atm.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

yes you have some right about the iota
but the problem is that the game is around 272 BC right?
This time prevails koine. the romans at this time were using dipthoggs
like ai,oi instead of ae,oe which are later. The same happens to the greek.
using attic it would be more likely at the time of 5th Cent. BC.
comoedus,tragoedus were written like this: ΚΟΜΟΙΔΙΑ--> ΚΟΜΩΔΙΑ, ΤΡΑΓΟΙΔΙΑ-->ΤΡΑΓΩΔΙΑ.
In some cases ΟΙ becomes Ω but not every Ω becomes ΟΙ.
I didn't see all the words but e.g. the words ΑΔΗΣ - hades is like that? In the attic should be ΗΑΙΔΕΣ-->ΑΙΔΗΣ-->AΔΗΣ in koine.
Also to say attic,doric and others the elements are so few that
we cannot rely on them so accureately to reproduce the dialects.
There are also professors between universities that they dispute for this reasons. They dispute even for
latin which their evolution was much later.
But the attic dialect also has and other letters which they are not used
what about F and I (as consonant) or Q (yes it is used in classical greek).

And the last thing to mention for now is that of the grammar and syntax.
I think that there are also mistakes to mention later.
Thank you for listening to me.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We start in 272. We set the game up for then. Koine has not "prevailed" by then. We will continue to use the classical forms. The few professors that dispute it are in the vast minority and I'd advise not to try to start arguing against a vast Erasmian conspiracy theory. In the end, I can assure you with the utmost confidence that we are not changing our decision on that. If there is an individual mistake that we have made, we will be happy to look into it, but understand that we are more than happy to include these 272 pronunciations as we have transliterated them.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

Well I don't have any intention to see behind
the conspiracy but you may also know that
Alexander obliged the greek to be taught to
anyone within his empire. The need was such that
he made the greek to be changed to a more
easy way to learn. The vowels lost most of
their quantity (literaly), he had put certain stressing marks
to help the learning of the greek among the conquered
people,he had "destroyed" letters like H(consonant),I(consonant),Q,F.
and around 272BC had passed 50 years of this kind of education.

I don't know if you'd like to do changes.
I will continue to refer to any "mistakes" which of them
I think they are.
Maybe in few days I will have exact phrases or words.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Let's focus on the individual phrases etc. for now, ok? It is easier to comment and argue on specific individual cases.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

This is tiring, but is not surprising. For years we have had to deal with one particular group telling us this pronunciation/transliteration is wrong - one group out of the whole world. . You think obviously that all changes that occurred from classical Attic to koine happpened overnight. They did not. Many different changes occurred over about four centuries and since our game starts in 272 BC, before the consensus of modern classical philologists say (just about any of) those changes happened, we are not putting them into it. That is the end of that discussion as far as we are concerned.

[Hooahguy]

but i, for one, am having fun seing the EB team puting thier expertise to use... and im learning too!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Read the old threads. This has happened I would guess about 8 or 9 times, maybe more. It was old after the third or fourth one. We have not changed our minds. Consider us stubborn if you will, but we'd rather actually go back to working on the mod than rehash this for the 10th or 11th time.

[Hooahguy]

why dont you put it in the FAQ?

[PershsNhpios]

Yeah, put it in the FAQ - but write it in Greek!

Pardon me, Attic!

[Tiberius Nero]

The only mistake in Greek I have seen in EB is about Zeus' statue in Olympia called "Zoanon" instead of "Xoanon"; well I suppose this comes from the undying habit of most native English speakers to pronounce Greek Ξ (= ks, as in accept)) as they pronounce English X (that is, like z oftentimes), when in fact usually those represent completely different sounds.

Also a few of the Greek personal names that come up look a bit bizzare at times, I am not sure if all of these are attested, but other than that everything is in perfect order.

Still quite unsure what mistakes the original poster is refering to, an example would help.

P.S. You can p.m. me in Greek with them, if you are not too comfortable with English, that is modern Greek...

[Ibrahim]

Yeah, put it in the FAQ - but write it in Greek!

Pardon me, Attic!

Here here!

this disscuccion is indeed old-seen many of them (2 or 3); might as well put a "monthly koine greek" page as well (like the monthly lorica segmentata page).

but this gets me wondering: what is the difference between koine and attic? can someone also tell me about doric vs. attic, just as a bonus; I'm trying to learn attic, got the nouns but verbs are confusing. also tackling old persian, germanic, sanskrit, and south arabian (actually looking for specific words); anyone knows where to get info on them?:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: to anyone who will help.

[Tiberius Nero]

Koine is the evolution of Attic Greek; it features somewhat simplified grammar and syntax and it ends up being pronounced a lot different than Attic. The modern Greek pronunciation is very close if not identical to what the Koine ended up sounding like. The orthography didn't change though and hasn't changed to this day.

Doric Greek and Attic Greek are two dialects of the same language; they are mutually intelligible with some effort, think of the relation like that between Geordi and Cockney English, both evolving from a common ancestral language. If you want specifics of the phonetic correspondences and grammatical variations that would get too technical indeed, if you don't have some knowledge of Attic at least (dunno if you do).

[Ibrahim]

Thanks!

if you know the technicals-send them to di.nof.elis@hotmail.com if you can E-mail. that will come handy-if you know them:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:

[Tiberius Nero]

Thanks!

if you know the technicals-send them to di.nof.elis@hotmail.com if you can E-mail. that will come handy-if you know them:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:

I will p.m. you in a while with some examples then. :)

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Sorry to hi-jack this thread. I'm with Ibrahim and if possible, would like to ask a few questions. general knowledge stuff as I am not so smart. :dizzy2:

1) Attic greek comes from which geographical area? (I know ... attic, but could you locate it on the EB map for reference?) ((i kind of know this answer, but it sets up the other questions))

2) Doric Greek comes from which geographical area?

3) Koine means ... what? And why is the KH faction called thusly. (yes, I just wanted to say "thusly")

I appreciate your :help: ! I don't want to take up any of the EB team's time. As we are all awaiting for 1.1. Well, that is after I get a good KH campaign in on 1.0, and then a Lusotannon campaign, oh yeah, a Sweboz too oh and then a ...


:yes:

[Tiberius Nero]

1. Attica, the region around Athens.
2. Doric is spoken in many regions, most prominent is the region of Sparta, but Doric colonies are found in Asia minor, Krete, Sicily and probably elsewhere.
3. Koine=Common (feminine gender of adjective koinos). Koinon Hellenon is supposed to be transalated like "Greek Commonwealth" or something (koinon is the neuter of the adjective).

@Ibrahim: pmed you.

[Tellos Athenaios]

For anyone willing to learn about pronounciation of Attic Greek you could start by looking up Keravnos' signature: in there is an awesome link... :book:

[Sir Edward]

Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs, as someone who has seen similiar discussions go down on the forum, you really need to consider referencing actual material to back up your statements if you want the EB team to ever take your request seriously. Find some first rate sources to back up your claims about the timetable and distribution of Koine and Attic Greek. While EB isn't free of mistakes you got to remember that the team over the years have had to put up with lets say some extreme nationalist who have made some rather colorful ideas about ancient greek and that have made very similiar claims to what your saying right now. Best of luck in your research.

p.s. What is up with the format of your post? Makes it hard to read.

[Geoffrey S]

By the way, would I be correct in assuming some snobbery leading to conventional Attic being the dominant dialect among elites during the time in which Koine was developing, and thus much of EBs period?

Just wondering - could be an interesting (language) trait if so...

[Tiberius Nero]

By the way, would I be correct in assuming some snobbery leading to conventional Attic being the dominant dialect among elites during the time in which Koine was developing, and thus much of EBs period?

Just wondering - could be an interesting (language) trait if so...

You would be correct to assume something similar for the next 2000 years or so after EB's timeframe actually; up until less than 40 years ago the official Greek language of the modern Greek state was a simplified form of Attic/Koine, called "katharevusa" ("pure language"), used by scholars, state officials and the Church (the Church still uses it for its official documents). Modern Greek is a mixture of the katharevusa (much vocabulary derives from it) and demotic Greek.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

Well sorry for being late I was sleeping. It is the difference of the time. Well I have the intention for this thing to be treated with seriousness.
At this 2 days I can't say so much exactly on the words and the phrases, and I apologise for this, because my job doesn't let me. I'm waiting some of my books which describe the difference between the dialects (slightly difference in pronunciation not so in grammar) and which dialect they speak in every hellenic region.
I can say that my intention is not to put the EB team in a spear point and stub them. I'm very proud of the job that they do by reproducing ancient greek, as I'm a Greek.
This thread has not to do with any kind of nationalism and such bad habits.

I could say that (as being in geographical order) that the dialects spoken at the classical era were: Doric dialect in Sparta (southern peloponnesos),in Epirus,Creta and in the southern part of aegean coast of Asia minor.
Ionic was the oldest, and was spoken in Athens, a little in Korinthos and mostly at the central part of the aegean coast of Asia Minor then changes to attic in Athenai or Athena later.
At last Aiolic was the dialect which was spoken in central Greece, Thessalia and in Makedonia and the northern part of the aegean cost of Asia Minor.

This a summary of the whole story. I'm waiting...

Because I think that maybe I seem rude (I don't have any intention so) I'll try to give an example which I think is wrong in the grammar.

Arche Seleukeia ~ ΑΡΧΗ ΣΕΛΕΥΚΕΙΑ Does it seem correct or no?

[Tiberius Nero]

Arche Seleukeia ~ ΑΡΧΗ ΣΕΛΕΥΚΕΙΑ Does it seem correct or no?

It is correct as a formation; now as to whether there is an attested adjective "Σελεύκειος, -α, -ον" (with the meaning of "Seleucid") or not, I cannot really say at the moment, I would let the team reply.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

Arche Seleukeia~ AΡΧΗ ΣΕΛΕΥΚΕΙΑ uses two nominative cases in an order
unacceptable. The 2nd must be in genitive or changed.
Also must show that goverments are of the people or the rulers not of the lands.

[Tiberius Nero]

It is supposed to be an adjective, not a genitive. Adjectives have to agree in case gender and number with the word they qualify, in this instance ΑΡΧΗ.

P.S. the accent in ΣΕΛΕΥΚΕΙΑ is supposed to be on the iota. You might be misreading it for "Seleucia", the city, hence the confusion.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I'm looking at the dictionary and the adjective is Seleukeios, -a, -on. Indeed both Arche and Seleukeia are both nominative, as is necessary. But we aren't looking at two nominative nouns here; it is a nominative noun and an adjective modifying it which is also in the nominative case. It is fine as it is.

"Also must show that goverments are of the people or the rulers not of the lands." We will name the factions what we think is the most appropriate name and will not be told what the restrictions or criteria are. We have discussed every faction name very carefully over and over in threads more than three years ago. They weren't just chosen willy-nilly.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

I think that you have misunderstood me. I don't do any assault to the
team. I didn't say that you have chosen the names without searching.
I'm not the wise of the tribe but as the romans said "de omnibvs est dvbitandvm".
I'd like only to help improving the game.
I can't do it now because I don't have the list ready and I need few days to do it 'cos' I'm working.
And to discuss about seleukeia. Koinon Hellenon seems fine to me. It desribes the state and the political situation of them.
Makedonia is fine describes fairly fine the geographical region written in many marbles and texts.
Epeirus the same. But both names don't show any characterisation for the people.
Ptolemaioi has to do more as saying Greeks... I don't know if it is a formal name of a state.
Arche Seleukeia seems little strange because says about "rule ~ Arche~ΑΡΧΗ"
which derives from someone (people,ruler etc) and 2nd word which is an adjective describing the kind of rule? whose was the rule?
Briefly I would say as I've seen through my life that every time words which are showing property,state, goverment we use as 2nd word the reference to the rule.
examples: (in greek because I don't know how to say it in english)
1st my city: City of Trikala, ΠΟΛΗ or -ΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΤΡΙΚΑΛΩΝ
in this city live people ,who has a "ruler", the mayor.
Now which seems more correct?
e.g. ΑΡΧΗ ΤΡΙΚΑΛΙΝΗ, ΑΡΧΗ ΤΡΙΚΚΑΙΩΝ or ΑΡΧΗ of the mayor?
the same can be said with koinon hellenon. "arche hellenike" or "arche hellenon".
I don't know also if you want names of states or names of the peoples' ethnicities.
e.g. Aedui,Romani but Koinon Hellenon,Makedonia
Maybe ancient coins can be resourceful here to prove which fits best or
titles in the marbles.
Texts used to be in koine most of them so I don't know if they are reliable.


Ending this post I'd like to say that I'm here to discuss and only that.
Not to start any flame wars with stupidities.
I'm human and so are you and "errare hvmanvm est".
:2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:
waiting for replies but I won't reply in any other aspect until I've done the
list I'm saying a long time now.

[Tiberius Nero]

ΑΡΧΗ= power, authority. The Athenian hegemony was refered to as an ΑΡΧΗ in the sense we would translate as "hegemony" or "empire". I actually think I have seen in an ancient source the Seleucid Kingdom being refered to as an ΑΡΧΗ, but no idea where that was now. So Arche Seleucia is fine I guess.

[abou]

There was a huge amount of debate on how to title the Seleukid kingdom. It is an interesting thread, but currently located in the bowels of EBH.

It was felt that Arche best represented what it was - at least at the beginning.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I understand that you just want to help, but really, we have had many debates over these names and our naming conventions and how to be consistent but give the best name for each faction, etc. We did this years ago too. We are not going to change them now. We have discussed changing the Epeirote one about a year ago, but really after a long discussion felt it was better as it was. I can ***assure*** you that they will not change at this stage. It simply won't happen. We gave many options for this Seleukid one, and I leaned towards Seleukidai in the start, but we found epigraphical evidence that the governance (and this is not a place, but a system of empire that was unified as this faction) was referred to as an Arche, and that is why we went that direction. We wanted the adjectival form instead of the genitive too. We simply don't have the interest or time to go over these things all again out here - it's like any other aspect of the mod - we are also not going to make the internal forum archives public. If there is enough interest, we might dig things out to explain it to the public, but we don't have the time to give full explanations of everything we have done (this is totally volunteer-driven guys, remember - and we always would rather be working on new things instead).

[Tellos Athenaios]

I must insist, Teleklos: Seleukides I have not spent many hours validating the Attic Greek in the EU agains the TLG, my own dictionary & understanding, and Perseus only to see the same error again. /:soapbox:

Now I shall comment a little on Arche. It means quite a few things, but in context it is indeed the Rule or the Power of something/someone. Actually there is a case for Arche Seleukeias (abstracting from Seleukeia by taking it to refer to the entire empire, therefore translating into the 'Rule of Seleukeia' / 'Power of Seleukeia'); but the joy of languages in general and Greek in particular is that there is always another way of putting it. So a change is not yet required. :beam:

[keravnos]

For those who want to know more on ancient greek, check my sig...

[lobf]

I don't understand why there's so much hostility towards this guy. He's just trying to help, however ignorantly. You guys always have such a fit if someone asks you something you think you've already answered. Just take a pill.

[blitzkrieg80]

I don't understand how any person can logically think that their language hasn't changed over 100+ years, nonetheless 2000+ years! I don't care if you are proud of your land- that is just ridiculous, delusional even. Even France cannot claim anything near that and they have their illustrious French Academy, which indeed tries to enforce consistency and yet the word for computer is... wait for it... 'computer'!! Language is static in no way whatsoever (even if you wish it were). The best one can hope for is a snapshot of a given time and a specific circumstance.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

blitzkrieg you are ridiculous and pathetic. Read the thread, think (if you can)
and hold your answer for your own.
Thank you indeed.

[blacksnail]

I don't understand why there's so much hostility towards this guy. He's just trying to help, however ignorantly. You guys always have such a fit if someone asks you something you think you've already answered. Just take a pill.

Back in the wild old days threads like this were very often thinly disguised, heavily nationalistic screeds, so the "once bitten, twice shy" reaction on our part is understandable, if not necessarily the best thing. Also it is generally more productive to say "why is the Greek the way it is? I thought it would be different" than "your Greek is probably wrong, I'm just saying" - the former gets you an explanation and the latter gets the team on the defensive due to, again, the wild old days on this forum. This isn't always warranted but you have a different perspective on the matter when you've been on the receiving end of really bitter, ugly threads on the topic.

Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs seems to be arguing in good faith with a legitimate interest in improving the mod which is exactly the right way to offer constructive criticism. I think the specific hot-button topic is what caused the ruffled feathers. It is very a good point to say we should have something addressing this issue in the FAQ, as this does come up every now and again. I'll activate the MAA signal and see about getting it into the FAQ.

[blitzkrieg80]

Georgi, you have no counterargument then? :applause: So, I am correct in my assumption that YOU think your language hasn't changed in 2000 years, eh? Or can we agree that language cannot be controlled? It should be a simple answer- you agree or you don't.

still waiting for some evidence and/or citation... as commented, constructive criticism is great, but speculation doesn't hold much weight. thus, i don't expect anyone to change their views on my recent statements ~:)

[lobf]

Back in the wild old days threads like this were very often thinly disguised, heavily nationalistic screeds, so the "once bitten, twice shy" reaction on our part is understandable, if not necessarily the best thing. Also it is generally more productive to say "why is the Greek the way it is? I thought it would be different" than "your Greek is probably wrong, I'm just saying" - the former gets you an explanation and the latter gets the team on the defensive due to, again, the wild old days on this forum. This isn't always warranted but you have a different perspective on the matter when you've been on the receiving end of really bitter, ugly threads on the topic.

Word, that's understandable. I just so often see hostility directed towards people who come in and try to help the mod constructively because you guys have heard it all before.

But this guy seems wrong anyways. So whatever.

[PershsNhpios]

Never mind the BlitzKrieg, Georgi.

I don't think he's in Kansas anymore.

Lobf is right, perhaps the EB team should all get together and make a;

"You know, we all learned something today", post.

[Ibrahim]

woe...don't bite his head off like that Blitzkrieg! people make mistakes.:no:

[Tiberius Nero]

Georgi, you have no counterargument then? :applause: So, I am correct in my assumption that YOU think your language hasn't changed in 2000 years, eh? Or can we agree that language cannot be controlled? It should be a simple answer- you agree or you don't.

still waiting for some evidence and/or citation... as commented, constructive criticism is great, but speculation doesn't hold much weight. thus, i don't expect anyone to change their views on my recent statements ~:)

You must be thinking of some other thread, he never posted anything about the language not having changed in 2000 years, he just thinks some of the Greek phrases in EB do not follow proper syntax or that the grammar is wrong. Put some check on your reflexes, please, not every Greek who comes here to comment about Greek in the mod has to fall into the group you are thinking of.

[blitzkrieg80]

hmm. good point. if that is the case, then i apologize i have implied such when we all agree on that aspect.

Glenn- i like your joke. ~:thumb:

[Tellos Athenaios]

No, the guys who are right get *cough* assimilated *cough* :wink:

The problem is that, if you continuously see LS threads -to beat a dead horse- then all of them start to look like the same 'Jeez not this shit again' even though there might actually be some interesting tidbit of knowledge inside them you never knew/heard of. It is the fact that EB members have seen their share of unfair critiscism; at times blatantly wrong, that tend to make it a bit more difficult discussing the repeating topics on these fora with the desired openminded view. ~:)

However, I am more than willing to discuss any (perceived) anomaly or oddity or inconsistency or error about any phrase of Greek within EB (even though many are not by my hand) for two main reasons:
1) I like the little nitpicky stuff about it. It's one of my favourites.
2) Whoever takes the time to sift out all errors (and it isn't very realistic to say there aren't any within EB, heck I spend a good deal of time & effort correcting some of the most glaring/obnoxious/embarrassing ones myself -- not to mention the fact other EB members had to put up with me nagging them about it :grin:) surely deserves a cookie.
You start fresh, but after 500 lines of English with Greek and repeatedly encountering similar issues it quickly becomes a 'boring' job: it just takes so much more time, and it is in fact quite tiresome & repetetive to have to check everything.
So I'd consider ourselves lucky if someone (foolishly?) decided to volunteer. :grin:

[Ibrahim]

:yes: is that so?
then why aren't Sabaeans speaking south arabian, the persian persian, Karthadashtis punic, and germans germanic :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[blitzkrieg80]

what are you talking about? the Germans will speak Germanic (I should know). the Puni will prob speak Punic and the Persians speak an Indo-Iranian dialect... or am i not getting your facetiousness?

[Watchman]

WIP, neh ?

[machinor]

Regarding pronunciation misstakes... the pronunciation of "kleruchoi" in "kleruchoi phalangitai" sounds a bit odd to me. To me it sounds like "klerukioi", with a "k" and an "i" instead of the "ch" (like in "Bach") which AFAIK is supposed to be a transliterated X ("chi").
Could be my misstake though.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Back to koine/classical issues again. chi, phi, and theta are pronounced in a different way in those two periods. As an example, the phi is more like the "p" in "top" (which has a slight aspirate at the end of it), than the "ph" in "phone". The same basic principle applies to theta and chi too.

Read more about the change in keravnos' signature link.

[sycander]

Btw, while I'm here:
I need to know how to say : "Hello!" in ancient greek
I don't think it was: "Kalimerà"

Thank you!

And, Blitzkrieg, please, do not say "french illustrious academy"... and also, in france, a computer is... un ordinateur.:beam:

[blitzkrieg80]

what's wrong with the Academy?

[sycander]

It's just a fourth age club now.

[machinor]

Back to koine/classical issues again. chi, phi, and theta are pronounced in a different way in those two periods. As an example, the phi is more like the "p" in "top" (which has a slight aspirate at the end of it), than the "ph" in "phone". The same basic principle applies to theta and chi too.

Read more about the change in keravnos' signature link.
I was aware of the theta- and phi-thing, although I never heard of something similar applying to the chi. Thanks for clearing that up. :2thumbsup:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I think the chi change is very minimal compared to the other two, but they are all lumped together as being affected similarly during this time.

[Strategos Semprini]

This idea's probably been kicked around a lot,and is definitely off-topic-so sorry in advance; but why is the Greek faction called "Koinon Hellenon" anyway? That's clearly the genitive plural form of Koinos Hellenos, right? So they've effectively named the faction "Of the Common Greek Men." Seems a bit silly.
Of course it's possible that the faction name was intended as a neuter singular- that is, "the Common Greek thing." But what thingthe name is referring to would elude me. Perhaps the mythical state of Unified Greece itself, though that would be feminine, I think...

Again, these ideas must have been brought up before by someone as obsessive and pedantic about these things as myself. Sorry if this is too far from this thread's stated topic.

Ted

Oh, and hello in Attic and Koine is "Chaire" or "Chairete" if addressing a group. It literally means "rejoice."

[Dhampir]

This thread made my head explode.

[Tiberius Nero]

That's clearly the genitive plural form of Koinos Hellenos, right?

Erm, no. "hellenos" is not a nominative in the first place, the nominative is hellen. Koinon is the neuter of the adjective koinos.



Of course it's possible that the faction name was intended as a neuter singular- that is, "the Common Greek thing." But what thingthe name is referring to would elude me. Perhaps the mythical state of Unified Greece itself, though that would be feminine, I think...


The neuter of an adjective can be used to denote an abstract notion. "To koinon"= "community, commonwealth", "to barbarikon"=all barbarians-non Greeks.
Koinon Hellenon is supposed to be as I understand it the "Commonwealth of the Greeks" (hellenon=genitive plural of hellen).

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Wondering about "Koinon Hellenon"? Read the faction description and history on the website.

[quackingduck]

What kind of offence is that?
Do you enjoy showing that answering in that way
it is a little pathetic?
In any case no one has any "divine right" but I'd like
this game to be improved. This is not a test for self- satisfaction
or showing that I'm a professor but with that way I want to
show some things can be better...
If you have any more productive comments will be kind of you.
But this answer didn't show any prudence...
I started from this time to collect some names and it will be soon in this
thread. sorry for waiting..:smash: .



EL OH EL. im laughing right now.
this is like that stupid post with the 100 pages of some idiot argueing that the greek hopolite spears are too long by like 2 feet or somthing.

like why would u pick at peoples work like this?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Oh, and hello in Attic and Koine is "Chaire" or "Chairete" if addressing a group. It literally means "rejoice."

It also means "Goodbye"; and if you encounter its participium it may also means "good riddance".

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

Well I tried my best to find out and check the words and phrases I found wrong
I have the 1st list to discuss :sweatdrop: :2thumbsup:

1. “stauroma xulikon” The 1st word seems fine as it is many texts. The 2nd word “xulikon” is “not present”, mostly is used the world “xulinon” (ΞΥΛΙΝΟΝ)

2. The phrase: “polis symmache autonome” has a grammatical error as the adjective “symmachos” is the same for both masculine and feminine (ΗΟ/ΗΕ(-/Η) ΣΥΜΜΑΧΟΣ)

3. “chalkeon” blacksmith this word is referred as something which has to do with the man who works in a blacksmith. “chalkourgeion” (ΧΑΛΚΟΥΡΓΕΙΟΝ) is best referred to the building.

4. Well this is a phrase with lots of discussion…
“choma kapelikon” merchant port. The 1st “choma” means soil, earth, mud but not a port… and even it means it is wrong written, “choma” is a bit late Greek word and it is the same in modern Greek. The original is a 3rd declension irregular noun and in nominative is “chous” (ΤΟ ΧΟΥΣ) genitive (ΤΟΥ Χ(ΟΥ-->ΟΙ-->Ω)ΜΑΤΟΣ). The 2nd word it is a little controversial. It partially means something that has to do with the retail trade but more often it has also a negative aspect for whom/which refers to. This because the term “techne kapeleia” (ΤΕΧΝΕ(/Η) ΚΑΠΕ(/Η)ΛΕΙΑ) often meant the ability of buying cheap and selling very expensive in order to gain great profits. Nowadays holds only the negative aspect and it is so negative that one who’s called “kapelos” (ΚΑΠΗΛΟΣ) is prosecuted by the law (often because he was caught selling ancient statues). For a small merchant port “emporikos naustathmos” (ΕΜΠΟΡΙΚΟΣ ΝΑΥΣΤΑΘΜΟΣ) fits well.

5. This phrase confused me…”leimon agonion” “leimon” (ΛΕΙΜΩΝ) means a grassland with flowers and sheep herding like in some rural photos. For a phrase with a translation as game field the word for the field suits better to the word “pedion” (ΠΕΔΙΟΝ). As for the 2nd word…I couldn’t understand but guessing of what I think it is from the noun “agon” (ΑΓΩΝ) and in genitive becomes “agonon” (ΑΓΩΝΩΝ)

6. “phrourion” garrison the word “phrourion” best fits for a building like a fortress or a citadel. Although if we want to describe the guard the word “phroura” (ΦΡΟΥΡΑ) is better.

7. “purotheke” aa ok nothing to say…by the way nice convention...

8. “sitoboleion” has a scarce repeat in the texts. Mostly it is used the word “ sitobolon” (ΣΙΤΟΒΟΛΩΝ), my home region Thessalia is called “sitobolon” because has a large farmland.

9. “Doron Aroures” grant of land…well “doron” (ΔΩΡΟΝ) means gift, “dorea” means grant , “aroures” has a grammatical error because it is “aroura” nominative and genitive “arouras” (ΑΡΟΥΡΑΣ) like “choras” (ΧΩΡΑΣ). Only Herodotus would write “aroures” because wrote in ionic.

10. “syllogos strateumatos xoriton” well why not “syllogos strateumatos perioikon”?? As in Athens…

11. “Rhodios Kolossos” …sounds better as “Kolossos Rhodo(u)” (ΚΟΛΟΣΣΟΣ ΡΟΔΟ(Υ)).

12. “Tichea lithea” well “lithina” (ΛΙΘΙΝΑ) instead of “lithea” is the right.

13. “Neorion” is not a military port… it is a place for mending/fixing ships like a dockyard. Maybe “polemikos limen” (ΠΟΛΕΜΙΚΟΣ ΛΙΜΕ(/Η)Ν) or “limen neon makron” (ΛΙΜΕ(/Η)Ν ΝΕ(/Η)ΩΝ ΜΑΚΡΩΝ).

14. “pezhetairoi” …hmmm…maybe “pezetairoi” because “z” is a double consonant.

15. Not “romaios invasion” but “romaion or romaike invasion” (ΡΩΜΑΙΩΝ),(ΡΩΜΑΙΚΕ(/Η)).

16. “Asklepieos” the noun in nominative is “Asklepios” (ΑΣΚΛΗ(/Ε)Π(Ε)ΙΟΣ) and in genitive “asklep(e)io(u)” (ΑΣΚΛΗ(/Ε)Π(Ε)ΙΟ(Υ)). It is found at some buildings.

17. “Zoanon Dios” well the word is “xoanon” but it is wrong because “xoanon” is a wooden statue (like in French the word “mannequin”). The right is to use the noun “agalma” especially for Zeus made by gold and ivory.

These words are found in faction of "koinon hellenon" and "Makedonia"
I'd like to see many opinions. I'm working on some others.:sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop::beam: :beam:

[Obelics]

id like to have studied greek very hard at the highschool, very interesting, that gave me the wish to take back some old greek manuals... but that give me a sort of terror, remembering my highschool days... oi antropoi...

ok, sorry for the intromission in this discussion... i leave it to people experct

[Tellos Athenaios]

I'll comment in greater detail later; but for now I'd like to point out one thing: Asklepeios is correct. The thing is, the name has been spelled differently in a number of sources - and Asklepeios occurs frequently enough not to change it.

The issue with Xoanon/Zoanon has been pointed out earlier; and I IIRC the word was changed to Eikon instead. Mostly because you can search far and wide but not find the word Xoanon in Strabo - at least not if you use the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae as your source... :juggle:

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

I'll comment in greater detail later; but for now I'd like to point out one thing: Asklepeios is correct. The thing is, the name has been spelled differently in a number of sources - and Asklepeios occurs frequently enough not to change it.

The issue with Xoanon/Zoanon has been pointed out earlier; and I IIRC the word was changed to Eikon instead. Mostly because you can search far and wide but not find the word Xoanon in Strabo - at least not if you use the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae as your source... :juggle:

I've written wrongly "Asklepios" instead of "Asklepeios"...but it is "Asklepeiou" and my source is the epigraphs of "asklepeion" in Trikala where I've lived for 18 years 30 meters from them and it is the greatest as may I know.No I don't know these sources. I wait your detailed answer.:2thumbsup:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Xoana are not exclusively wooden, though some authors use them in just that situation. There are a number of examples where it is closer to 'cult statue' than 'wooden statue'. Specifically a xoanon is a cult statue, sometimes made of wood but sometimes out of stone or ivory also. If you insist that sources be provided I will find them but I've got other things to do too. You list a number of things that may be rendered one way or the other, but there's nothing wrong with the way we have them. The Xoana and Kolossos entries are cases in point. I hope that we can find something in there that needs changing for sure though, just so we can say we are willing to change things.

edit: I will say that while lithea is correct, that more sources from the Hellenistic period do seem to prefer lithina, so that is one where it would be better for us to use the alternative you suggest.

[Tiberius Nero]

A couple of observations:

1. "teichea" is rather poetic with an uncontracted ending; "teiche" would be the ordinary plural.
2. pezhetairoi: the "h" is supposed to be the rough breathing found in "hetairoi". I cannot say if the rough breathing really survived in compound words, but it is not written at least after teh 4th cent. BC afaik. So an accurate transiliteration would be pezetairoi.
3. I cannot find Asklepeios in the dictionary, if such a form is attested it most likely is due to etacism, the tendency in koine for ei, oi, eta etc to be pronounced as |i|; the name of the divinity is "Asklepios" afaik. "Asklepeion" is a temple to Asclepios, perhaps that's what was meant?
4."aroures" as a genitive would be ionian dialect indeed, not attic.
5. "chalkeon", if it is found as such in game is a typo; chalkeion is indeed a blacksmith's shop.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Don't have the files open in front of me here, but since we often use adjectival (and less common in that respect than their matching nouns) forms, it is possible it was meant for the adj. Asklepieios.

Chalkeon is the first entry I've got in my dictionary for a blacksmith's shop, attested in Homer but also examples from Hellenistic sources (Ap. Rh.). Chalkeion is there too

[Tiberius Nero]

Chalkeon is the first entry I've got in my dictionary for a blacksmith's shop, attested in Homer but also examples from Hellenistic sources (Ap. Rh.). Chalkeion is there too

Dunno, my version of LSJ doesn't have "chalkeon" but as neuter of the adjective "chalkeos"(=made of bronze). Could be a really old version, I should look up a new one in the library.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Sorry I really suck at spelling today. :embarassed:

Asklepieios is what I meant; and IIRC is what's written in the EB descriptions. For reference:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform?lookup=askl&type=begin&lang=greek&searchText=&options=Sort+Results+Alphabetically&.submit=Submit&formentry=1&lang=greek

Teiche; you are correct there Teiche is just better.
(Though I should note, that it is correct Ionic.)

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well I tried my best to find out and check the words and phrases I found wrong
I have the 1st list to discuss :sweatdrop: :2thumbsup:

1. “stauroma xulikon” The 1st word seems fine as it is many texts. The 2nd word “xulikon” is “not present”, mostly is used the world “xulinon” (ΞΥΛΙΝΟΝ)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2371706


2. The phrase: “polis symmache autonome” has a grammatical error as the adjective “symmachos” is the same for both masculine and feminine (ΗΟ/ΗΕ(-/Η) ΣΥΜΜΑΧΟΣ)

Bingo. I'll get my axe ready.


3. “chalkeon” blacksmith this word is referred as something which has to do with the man who works in a blacksmith. “chalkourgeion” (ΧΑΛΚΟΥΡΓΕΙΟΝ) is best referred to the building.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2371706


4. Well this is a phrase with lots of discussion…
“choma kapelikon” merchant port. The 1st “choma” means soil, earth, mud but not a port… and even it means it is wrong written, “choma” is a bit late Greek word and it is the same in modern Greek. The original is a 3rd declension irregular noun and in nominative is “chous” (ΤΟ ΧΟΥΣ) genitive (ΤΟΥ Χ(ΟΥ-->ΟΙ-->Ω)ΜΑΤΟΣ). The 2nd word it is a little controversial. It partially means something that has to do with the retail trade but more often it has also a negative aspect for whom/which refers to. This because the term “techne kapeleia” (ΤΕΧΝΕ(/Η) ΚΑΠΕ(/Η)ΛΕΙΑ) often meant the ability of buying cheap and selling very expensive in order to gain great profits. Nowadays holds only the negative aspect and it is so negative that one who’s called “kapelos” (ΚΑΠΗΛΟΣ) is prosecuted by the law (often because he was caught selling ancient statues). For a small merchant port “emporikos naustathmos” (ΕΜΠΟΡΙΚΟΣ ΝΑΥΣΤΑΘΜΟΣ) fits well.

A bit complex to answer quickly - and I am in a hurry.


5. This phrase confused me…”leimon agonion” “leimon” (ΛΕΙΜΩΝ) means a grassland with flowers and sheep herding like in some rural photos. For a phrase with a translation as game field the word for the field suits better to the word “pedion” (ΠΕΔΙΟΝ). As for the 2nd word…I couldn’t understand but guessing of what I think it is from the noun “agon” (ΑΓΩΝ) and in genitive becomes “agonon” (ΑΓΩΝΩΝ)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%231101

A bit abstract but it's there...


6. “phrourion” garrison the word “phrourion” best fits for a building like a fortress or a citadel. Although if we want to describe the guard the word “phroura” (ΦΡΟΥΡΑ) is better.

Which is what the phrourion is 9 times out of 10. If we're talking about buildings... ~;)


7. “purotheke” aa ok nothing to say…by the way nice convention...


8. “sitoboleion” has a scarce repeat in the texts. Mostly it is used the word “ sitobolon” (ΣΙΤΟΒΟΛΩΝ), my home region Thessalia is called “sitobolon” because has a large farmland.

9. “Doron Aroures” grant of land…well “doron” (ΔΩΡΟΝ) means gift, “dorea” means grant , “aroures” has a grammatical error because it is “aroura” nominative and genitive “arouras” (ΑΡΟΥΡΑΣ) like “choras” (ΧΩΡΑΣ). Only Herodotus would write “aroures” because wrote in ionic.

10. “syllogos strateumatos xoriton” well why not “syllogos strateumatos perioikon”?? As in Athens…

11. “Rhodios Kolossos” …sounds better as “Kolossos Rhodo(u)” (ΚΟΛΟΣΣΟΣ ΡΟΔΟ(Υ)).


12. “Tichea lithea” well “lithina” (ΛΙΘΙΝΑ) instead of “lithea” is the right. Commented on already.


13. “Neorion” is not a military port… it is a place for mending/fixing ships like a dockyard. Maybe “polemikos limen” (ΠΟΛΕΜΙΚΟΣ ΛΙΜΕ(/Η)Ν) or “limen neon makron” (ΛΙΜΕ(/Η)Ν ΝΕ(/Η)ΩΝ ΜΑΚΡΩΝ).

It is a dockyard in fact: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2370591


14. “pezhetairoi” …hmmm…maybe “pezetairoi” because “z” is a double consonant.

We try to ensure you could pronounce it without knowing how we derived at it. So to remove the 'h' is not a very good idea. Similarly we write -ph- rather than -f- or -p- when dealing with a phi.


15. Not “romaios invasion” but “romaion or romaike invasion” (ΡΩΜΑΙΩΝ),(ΡΩΜΑΙΚΕ(/Η)).

16. “Asklepieos” the noun in nominative is “Asklepios” (ΑΣΚΛΗ(/Ε)ΠΕΙΟΣ) and in genitive “asklepeio(u)” (ΑΣΚΛΗ(/Ε)ΠΕΙΟ(Υ)). It is found at some buildings.

17. “Zoanon Dios” well the word is “xoanon” but it is wrong because “xoanon” is a wooden statue (like in French the word “mannequin”). The right is to use the noun “agalma” especially for Zeus made by gold and ivory.

These words are found in faction of "koinon hellenon" and "Makedonia"
I'd like to see many opinions. I'm working on some others.:sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop::beam: :beam:

It is a bit difficult to get Romaios etc. right; specifically when we consider that it's a matter of applying language a on language b - something which is really hard to get it looking pretty. (And never really correct for that matter.)

16 and 17 were commented on already.

[Tiberius Nero]

My LSJ gives "Asklepieios" as an adjective(=belonging to Asklepios) and it makes sense, it definitely looks like an adjective. I have never that I can recall of seen the name of the divinity as anything else than Asklepios/Asklapios, depending on the dialect.

[Tellos Athenaios]

So? The only instances in EB I could retrieve quickly where the word Asklepieios was used for (the Asklepieia) *are* things dedicated to Asklepios. And the name for those buildings is spelled differently at times... :shrug:

[Tiberius Nero]

Ok, I just thought we were talking about the god here, I don't remember where it is used in game; if it is as an adjective, its fine.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Aisklepieion (Sanctuary of Asklepios) -- that's what I found in the export_buildings.txt file ~:)

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

"leimon" (ΗΟ ΛΕΙΜΩΝ) masculine.
Well this is for everyone...searching the dictionary only doesn't get you to the point. You have to be some kind of expirienced in the language. Tradition,habits are not transmitted through dictionaries and some words from above were carried through the centuries with the same meaning.An appereance of a certain word in a text won't mean that we can use it where we want. It depends to the writer and the instance. e.g. Thoukydides sometimes writes the letter "Ξ" instead of the letter "Σ" in some words...thus it doesn't mean that we can write these words with "Ξ"...and so on.
The best we can do is to write the more common and stable words without showing strange phrases...or trying to make significant "dangerous" diversities.
I'll try to post the next list tomorrow or later...

[pezhetairoi]

I so have got to study ancient Greek as a side language course when I get to my university. I am missing out on a whole world of knowledge here. I still don't really get genetive/ablative/zeusknowswhatelse.

[Ibrahim]

I read your your reply Blitzkrieg....I see you missed the joke...I know that they will come in the next patch (knew it for months now)-it was just a joke to lighten things up, so please kindly not act that way:furious3:

@ pezhetairoi: I noticed you were confused so I want to help: genitive is the possessive. eg: "of the man"; ablative is means method, or position/direction. eg: "by/with/out/in/on the man" (on the man, hehe). now in greek, latin, and even arabic, the form of the word chages with each case, so homo=man in latin, is hominis in the genitive, and homine in the ablative. eg "cataphractarius hominis romanum interfecit cum contu/conto" hominis is=of the man" , and contu/conto is ablative, the sentance being "the cataphract of man (I know-makes no sense) killed the roman with a contus(kontos)"; notice the words have changed form, and there is only 1 preposition (cum)

if anyone else would like to further clarify/ correct, feel free to(no snide remarks please-seen enough)

here are some baloons:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:

[Tellos Athenaios]

"leimon" (ΗΟ ΛΕΙΜΩΝ) masculine.
Well this is for everyone...searching the dictionary only doesn't get you to the point. You have to be some kind of expirienced in the language. Tradition,habits are not transmitted through dictionaries and some words from above were carried through the centuries with the same meaning.An appereance of a certain word in a text won't mean that we can use it where we want. It depends to the writer and the instance. e.g. Thoukydides sometimes writes the letter "Ξ" instead of the letter "Σ" in some words...thus it doesn't mean that we can write these words with "Ξ"...and so on.
The best we can do is to write the more common and stable words without showing strange phrases...or trying to make significant "dangerous" diversities.
I'll try to post the next list tomorrow or later...

Mr expert here, I hear. :laugh4: Sorry I just could not resist. Suppose, just suppose, an entirely hypothetical question for of course this could not be the truth..., that Agonion were in fact gen.pl. neuter? You know... Field of Games ? Nah, totally impossible...

----------------

Okay, I know you don't know me; and my guess is you never really noticed but I am in fact one of the newer people on EB who does the ancient Greek. Now I didn't do the descriptions; though I have been sanitizing the export_units.txt file and have poked around in the export_VnVs.txt file a bit -- instead my field is writing prebattle speeches and stuff like that. Check out the Voicemod Preview if you want to convince yourself.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

Ohh come on don't take this personally...You know I'm not an expert.
I just say my opinion. I don't know what you do and in fact I don't care. I tried to write down some things which I think that they are wrong and they need some kind of discussion...But it is always better saying why sth is wrong or right and why...not just showing "dry" proofs. I'm not at all ironic.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Fair enough. I don't take it, exactly, personally. But I just found it mildly amusing, in a strange way, that's all.

(If I hadn't I'd be using whole different smiley ~:))

For the most part I have been replying to you by means of reference for the simple reason there is hardly anything else to say. Why we use Xulikon? Well, we'd need a word which means 'wooden' which was used at that time and which is ancient Greek. And 'Xulikon' so happens to fullfill all of these requirements. In what way saying this is different from showing you a dictionary entry, IDK. Apart from the fact people tend to trust their own eyes better than someone else's, and the dictionary is a nice way of circumventing issues like 'you say this but I maintain it is not correct' -- both ways. Heck, I've stood corrected often as well here ... ~;)

[Tiberius Nero]

"cataphractarius hominis romanum interfecit cum contu/conto"

No need to use the "cum" before an ablative to show the means by which something is achieved, a simple ablative suffices (think bi+jarr in Arabic). The "cum" plus the ablative is used to denote "in the company of something" (e.g. "they fled with their children"=cum liberis, think ma'+ jarr ;) )


Tellos, what Georgivs means by "you have to be some kind of expirienced in the language" is probably "have a feel for the language" i.e. what word to use in a given context; just as you don't address a pharmacist as an "apothecary" nowadays, because you have a feel that this word is antiquated and not to be used outside the context of an archaic or deliberately archaizing speech.

"agonion" is given as the neuter of the adjective "agonios" in my LSJ (=belonging to the games, as adjective of Zeus e.g.). I don't see how it makes sense with "leimon" which is masculine. I get the sense that some times you have been going for some rare forms of words and phrases (like "xulikon" in place of "xulinon"), here "pedion agonon" for "gaming field" would be the simplest way of saying it; "leimon" is really a pasture, "pedion" is more generally "a field, an expanse of land".

[Tellos Athenaios]

Tellos, what Georgivs means by "you have to be some kind of expirienced in the language" is probably "have a feel for the language" i.e. what word to use in a given context; just as you don't address a pharmacist as an "apothecary" nowadays, because you have a feel that this word is antiquated and not to be used outside the context of an archaic or deliberately archaizing speech.


"agonion" is given as the neuter of the adjective "agonios" in my LSJ (=belonging to the games, as adjective of Zeus e.g.). I don't see how it makes sense with "leimon" which is masculine. I get the sense that some times you have been going for some rare forms of words and phrases (like "xulikon" in place of "xulinon"), here "pedion agonon" for "gaming field" would be the simplest way of saying it; "leimon" is really a pasture, "pedion" is more generally "a field, an expanse of land".

I'd like to stress I haven't been going for anything (I didn't write the building titles); all I have done is verifying/falsifying the complaints (which was about the use of agonion - it not being perceived as a proper word) against what the language allows for. And in this case, Agonion may also be derived as follows:

Agonion -> nom/acc.sg.n. -> Agonia -> nom/acc.pl.n. -> Agonion -> gen.pl.n.

Which would translate into "of things belonging/related to games". In conjunction with the word leimon (which means meadow and is indeed not the best word here...) this would result into 'meadow [field] of games'. In Pedion Agonion, though I think it is indeed the correct form, Agonion has an ambiguous meaning: both as singular (game field) and plural (field of games & other stuff related to games)

So the list of changes, for now, is the following:
1) Pedion instead of Leimon.
2) Symmachos instead of Symmache.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Change lithea to lithina too Tellos, that looks like a good one.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yeah, good reminder! :yes:

[Tellos Athenaios]

It's done.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

I'd like to stress I haven't been going for anything (I didn't write the building titles); all I have done is verifying/falsifying the complaints (which was about the use of agonion - it not being perceived as a proper word) against what the language allows for. And in this case, Agonion may also be derived as follows:

Agonion -> nom/acc.sg.n. -> Agonia -> nom/acc.pl.n. -> Agonion -> gen.pl.n.

Which would translate into "of things belonging/related to games". In conjunction with the word leimon (which means meadow and is indeed not the best word here...) this would result into 'meadow [field] of games'. In Pedion Agonion, though I think it is indeed the correct form, Agonion has an ambiguous meaning: both as singular (game field) and plural (field of games & other stuff related to games)

So the list of changes, for now, is the following:
1) Pedion instead of Leimon.
2) Symmachos instead of Symmache.




Well the adjective "agonios" (ΑΓΩΝΙΟΣ) is better referred to a person and especially not to man but to a god.
Such as these adjectives are used to characterise persons and gods mostly (not to say only) to make it clear I can say that it is like saying in latin: "Scipio 'africanus'"(because he had fought in Africa) or Clavdivs 'Barbatvs' (because he had fought with the barbarians) and so on...
only for giving a trait.
So "pedion agonion" (ΠΕΔΙΟΝ ΑΓΩΝΙΟΝ) simply doesn't make sense ...

[Tiberius Nero]

I'd like to stress I haven't been going for anything (I didn't write the building titles)

Yeah, I didn't mean you personally, it was more like whoever wrote them.


Agonion -> nom/acc.sg.n. -> Agonia -> nom/acc.pl.n. -> Agonion -> gen.pl.n.

Which would translate into "of things belonging/related to games".

If I saw such a phrase in a manuscript, I would think someone at some point has made a mistake in transcript and written ΑΓΩΝΙΩΝ instead of ΑΓΩΝΩΝ, the use of agonion as "things related to the games" is bizzare; the epithet afaik and the dictionary says, is mainly used as a stock epithet of gods.


So the list of changes, for now, is the following:
1) Pedion instead of Leimon.
2) Symmachos instead of Symmache.

Add "autonomos" instead of "autonome", the feminine is the same as the masculine.

Georgius, I am fairly sure "Barbatus" means just that he has a beard (barba) and little more. :P

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

ohhh yeap...sorry...:oops: :oops:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Ok, I have been a bit neglecting my duties here; so I decided to do it a bit less hurriedly today. So, same search (agwni (w stands for omega in the search engine)) and now, actually read the output a bit more thoroughly.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%231096

Heck, I should've spotted that immediately given the fact it also features in my highschool dictionary which is specifically geared towards the focus of education; that is: Attic, Attic and more Attic with Ionic (Herodotos) and Koine (the Bible - it's the easiest step into the real sources, you see...); and of course the mix of various dialects known as the Illiad. ~:)

Do you guys also feel this one is actually even better? It isn't just contest; it's excersise in general! :2thumbsup:

And upon second review you are also correct that it agonios is indeed more of an epiteth. I hope I'll be forgiven. :bow:

EDIT: About autnomos: it'll be done.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

The reason I love EB, is b/c of threads like these. Not that I have a CLUE as to what you are arguing about. :dizzy2:
But the fact that this discussion is happening makes me smile.
:beam:


Kudos to all!
:2thumbsup:

[Tellos Athenaios]

About autonomos: it is done now. :wink: