questions on carthage.

[Vasiliyi]

I'm planning on starting a campaign as the carthagianians, and I was wondering what kind of army compositions the carthagianians had and where. I'm guessing they used a lot of regional troops like the iberian militias in iberia, the poly-libians dudes in africa and italy? Am I close? Thanks a lot for any info. Also if anyone has any tips for carthage then ill gladly take them.. Thanks in advance

[Tiberius Nero]

I suppose a realistic army composition would be around 30-50% Liby-Phoenicians and the rest regional troops and very few elephants. Having any sacred band units outside the province of Africa is really stretching credibility, unless the heartland of Carthage is under invasion.

[bovi]

You could start a campaign and read the unit descriptions.

[Strategos Alexandros]

The best formation I have found for carthage is Phalanx and spearmen in the centre, Swordsmen on the flanks and a wing of cavalry or elephants also on the flanks.

[konny]

In Africa the Karthagians used thousands of chariots, at least they had the stables for these numbers in the city. Of course, like every other polis around the Mediterr she had the militia forces (probably armed like Greek Hoplites). To this came allied forces, for example the levy of subjugated Numidian and Spanish tribes. And then in a growing numbers local mercenaries.

If you like, the armed forces of Karthago were the exact opposite of the Roman army: while the Romans payed much effords in uniformation, hardly two Karthagian armies would have looked the same.

[Vasiliyi]

Wow, thanks a lot konny and to all that helped out. My campiagn as the carthies is going fairly well. I'm busy subjegating the numidian tribes. They're a pain

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Having any sacred band units outside the province of Africa is really stretching credibility, unless the heartland of Carthage is under invasion.
That's a pity. Why do you think so? I use Sacred Band Cavalry in the Alpes and in Egypt. At least it's the only heavy cavalry the Carthies get, except the Iberi Lanceari, which are very far to ship around for most theatres once Spain sugjugated. Plus they are really slow. Turtle speed all the way. I can't spare my Sacred Band Cavalry, sorry!

[Watchman]

'Sides, didn't the original infantry branch get wiped out in Sicily to begin with ? Besides each and every FM now a priori hauling a bunch of the mounted type along wherever he goes, natch...

[chairman]

Konny: were those chariots still around by EB's timeframe? If they were, it would add an incredible flavor to the W. Med, especially if Carthage could recruit chariots in Phoenicia, where they originally brought them from. I was noticing in the Recruitment Viewer that Carthage can't train any troops there (despite being a Homeland province :inquisitive: ).

About army composition, Carthage used Liby-Phoenicians as the core in all of their armies, so keep them with you where-ever you go. In Hispania, use any Iberi troops you can, and ship them to other fronts when feasible. Numidian horsemen were hired to exclusion of almost all other native Numidians (except archers maybe). Carthage also used Celts/Gauls even before Hannibal's trek through S France and the Alps, so any available celtic mercinaries should be hired to show this. In Italy, Hannibal used lots of locals to fill the gaps left by Iberian and Libyan casualties, albeit not nearly as good as their predecessors, so Campanian Cavalry, Samnites, and Lucanians are good fill-ins for depleted Carthaginian armies campaigning in Italy. And local Hastati are a nice way to represent other tribes'/cities' forces that had started to copy Roman ways. Greek troops in Sicily and Magna Graecia help to show the heavy Greek presence in the forces that sided with Carthage in these areas.

As for native Carthaginian troops, again, the Libyans and Liby-Phoenicians should be the core of your forces. One or two units of elephants is about as much as you should have in any single stack, and the same goes for Sacred Band Cavalry, including your general(s), though 3 would not be too wrong. Elite African infantry/pikemen can be used in place of Libyan/Liby-Pho soldiers in more elite armies. Sacred Band units should be restricted in great numbers to Carthage, Atiqa, Adrumento and Sicily (yes, Sicily is completely kosher as it contains a Carthaginian homeland and they served here on numerous occasions).

So for possible army compositions try these ideas:

African Homelands:

2 Sacred Band Cavalry (includes generals)
Not more than 4 Sacred Band Infantry
no more than 4 elephants (usually should be about 2)
No more than 8 pike or elite infantry units (SBI, EAP, EAI)
up to 4 cavalry (not SBC or Numidian)
2-5 Numidian units (any kind, can include nobles or garamantines as well)
4-8 Libyan or Liby-Phoenician units
2-4 Iberian units on hand

Iberia:

up to 2 SBC (now should only be generals)
up to 2 elephants
no more than 4 elite infantry (SBI, EAP, EAI)
up to 3 Numidian units (mainly mounted skirmishers or archers)
2-6 Liby/Lby-Pho units
up to 4 total cavalry (not including Iberian or generals)
2-4 Iberian light troops (skirmishers, milites, caetrati)
2-4 Iberian medium Infantry
2-3 Iberian cavalry (remember to try to get some of those Iberian heavy cavalry!)

Italy or Southern Gaul:

up to 2 SBC (again should mainly be generals)
up to 2 elephants
no more than 4 elite infantry (SBI, EAP, EAI)
up to 2 Numidian units (should be nobles or mounted skirmishers)
2-4 Lby/Lby-Pho units
2-6 Iberian units (evenly divide between 3 branches but medium inf or cav can predominate if needed)
2-4 Italian units (Samnites are great, so are Campanian cav, Lucanians to fill light inf)
2-6 Celtic/Gallic units (key are missiles, cavalry and heavy infantry:neitos & gaesatae)


Misc:

-keep SBC, elephants and other elite units to a minimum of about 2 per unit
-Lby/Lby-Pho should have some presence in every Carthaginian army
-mercanaries are good: fill out your armies with any mercanary units present in the province; the Carthaginians made use of them, so should you
-BALEARIC SLINGERS: have 2 in every army when you can
-missile units in general are good to have your armies, be they iberian velites, numidian archers or skirmishers, celtic archers and slingers, lucanian light infantry or greek light troops
-greek units can be used in sicily and southern italy to fill in missile, heavy infantry and cavalry spots
-if you try to create imitation successor armies, the number of pikes (SBI, EAP) can be increased to form phalanxes of 4-8 units, but keep in mind to the need to balance with spearmen (Lby/Lby-Pho), assault (EAI, Iberian assault inf, scutarri, neitos), and cavalry (Citizen cav, SBC, Iberian cavalry, Celtic & Italian cavalry)


For tactics, use a mix of Roman manipular and Successor phalanxe styles. The ever famous Cannae set-up (something every would-be Carthaginian commander should be Very familiar with) might look something like this:

-Native: 2 EAI, 2 Lby-Pho Hvy Inf, 1 SBC (general)
-African: 2 Numidian mounted skirm., 1 Numidian skirmisher/archer
-Hispanic: 1 of any med/hvy Iberian cav, 2 Iberian light infantry (velites, caetrati), 2 Iberian med infantry, 1 Balearic slinger
-Celtic: 2 of any Gallic cav, 2 Gallic light infantry (archers/slingers/gaeroas), 2Gallic heavy infantry (botroas, neitos, gaesatae)

This should equal 20 units, of which 6 is missile/light infantry, 6 is cavalry, and 8 med-hvy infantry. Put the Iberian and Gallic cav on the left flank, then 1 EAI+1 Lby-Pho, then mix the Iberian and Gallic infantry in the middle with center curved forward and stronger, again 1 EAI+Lby-Pho, then the Numidian horse and SBC, in front of the infantry mix the missile/light infantry. That should be a pretty good approximation of Hannibal's battle plan.

Good luck with your campaigning as the noble Qart-Hadistim!

Chairman

[konny]

Konny: were those chariots still around by EB's timeframe?

To my knowlegde, hardly any details about the African wars of Karthago (of which there must have been a plenty) are known. Chariots are not mentioned in the battles against the Romans in Africa, ASFAIK. So they were certainly out of use in the 3rd Century.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Here are the armies currently employed by the honourable Sophet. Or used to be employed with the respective Pre-Reform units.

CAVALRY:
2 Sacred Band Cav (incl. Gen) or Lanceari
1-2 medium Cavalry, e. g. Carth. Citizens or Campanian Cav or Equites Romani
2 melee or light Cavalry, e. g. Liby-Phoenicians or Curisi or Liguriae Epos

INFANTRY:
6 units of Libyan Heavy Spearmen
4 units of Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry
2 units of Elite Africans
-------- or Successor style --------
5 units of Elite African Pikemen
2 units of Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry
2 units of Sacred Band Infantry
2 units of Iberian Assault Troops
1 unit of Elephantes Liboukoi (the strongest elephants)
-------- or Hispanic style --------
6 units of Libyan Heavy Spearmen
4 units of Loricati Scutari
2 units of Iberian Assault Troops
-------- or Celto-Italic style --------
4-6 units of Hastati
4-6 units of Neitos
0-4 units of local mercenaries, e. g. Massiliotes Hoplitai or Celtic Thureophoroi or Gaemile Liguriae
-------- or Hellenic style --------
12 units of Hoplitai

RANGED UNITS:
1 unit of Balearic Light Infantry or mercenary (Thraikioi) Peltastai
2 units of Balearic Slingers or Numidian Archers or Cretan Archers

[Vasiliyi]

Thanks a lot for the army composition tips.. My army right now looks like

1general,
3 liby-phonecian calvary
8 libyan spearman,
4 liby-phonecian dudes
4 baleriac slingers
(I know too many slingers) but they are hugely effecting during seiges, being able to get 35 to 40% of the garrison killed.) But I'm still conquering those numidians. I have a defense army near lepki (bridge defense from the ptolmies) because they broke the alliance. Rome on the other hand has left rhegion, messana, and syrokiosia alone so far, so ill leave them alone. But I have a spy to watch.. Iberia hasn't changed aswell, but I have upgraded the regional mic to the max and cannot wait to use the iberians..
I would also like to say that the carthagians have an enormious economy, very easy to play as if u spend your first 10 years or so building economy building and cut your armies and navies to zilch.

[Watchman]

I was noticing in the Recruitment Viewer that Carthage can't train any troops there (despite being a Homeland province :inquisitive: ).Well you know, it was their mother city... round half a millenia earlier.

Anyway, as the Carthies' Canaanite war chariots go, I once saw it mentioned somewhere they used those as a terror and distruption weapon - until they met Pyrrhus's elephants.

Let's just say the Romans weren't the only ones who could recognise a better idea when they saw it.

[chairman]

@ King Vasiliyi: I don't think that 4 units of slingers is overdoing it too much. Remember that Hannibal in specific and Carthage utilized large numbers of light and missile troops, especially Balearic slingers and infantry. So, given your lack of other missile troops, the number of slingers is not too bad.

@ Centurio: I am a little surprised and subsequently worried about your low number of missile units :sweatdrop: . Also, I think that under "hellenic style" you could replace the hoplitai with Liby-Phoenician infantry as they are equipped nearly the same and have similar stats. Under your Celto-Italic section I am again surprised by the complete lack of core African or Iberian troops, though I suspect this is because you are focusing on troops in those areas. I am impressed by the concept of having "4-6 neitos" in a single army. That sounds terribly deadly, probably capable of taking on just about anything near the Italian peninsula. What, BTW, do you mean by "celtic thureophoroi"? Which unit do you mean, since none of the celtic units that I know of are described as such (though the concept is definantly not in-applicable).

@ Watchman: I know that it was long since the Phoenicians had been an independant power there, but wouldn't Carthage be able to at least train some other local unit? A little bit of a stretch, but what about Ioudea Taxeis? Or one of the eastern light infantry trio? I feel that if Phoenicia is going to be a homeland province for Carthage, there should be at least ONE unit they can train there other than siege weapons and mercanary generals (all lvl 4 &5 MIC units BTW).

I know that Carthage adopted to the war elephant concept with enthusiasm, but was the chariot really so forgotten already by the time of EB's start date? If so that's fine, it just be cool to both chariots and elephants like AS (especially since carthaginian chariots would have archers in them!). Speaking of which, as a Canaanite people, shouldn't Carthage get a native infantry archer unit? I know that they used them (maybe not as extensively as other troops) and this would help fill in the roster a little. They don't have to be super powerful, maybe even on par with toxotai to show how obsolete and old-fashioned phoenician archers were. Just a thought!:beam:

Chairman

[Watchman]

AFAIK the Carthies' own archers went primarily into the navy, like the better part of their citizen-soldiery anyway. Numidians and such - who'd cheerfully copied the composite bow anyway - worked at least as well for the land armies.

That said, a Carthie citizen-archer unit would pwn the Toxotai six ways to Sunday. The old Middle Eastern composite war-bow vs. some lousy hunting shortbow ? No contest.

I know that it was long since the Phoenicians had been an independant power there, but wouldn't Carthage be able to at least train some other local unit? A little bit of a stretch, but what about Ioudea Taxeis? Or one of the eastern light infantry trio?Point. Many factions' recruitement options outside their immediate "sphere of operations" is kinda so-so in general really. Probably more an oversight than anything else - given what the recruitement code is like, not surprising.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

@ Centurio: I am a little surprised and subsequently worried about your low number of missile units :sweatdrop: . Also, I think that under "hellenic style" you could replace the hoplitai with Liby-Phoenician infantry as they are equipped nearly the same and have similar stats. Under your Celto-Italic section I am again surprised by the complete lack of core African or Iberian troops, though I suspect this is because you are focusing on troops in those areas. I am impressed by the concept of having "4-6 neitos" in a single army. That sounds terribly deadly, probably capable of taking on just about anything near the Italian peninsula. What, BTW, do you mean by "celtic thureophoroi"? Which unit do you mean, since none of the celtic units that I know of are described as such (though the concept is definantly not in-applicable).
I'm sorry. "Celtic Thureophoroi" is what they look like, but they are indeed called "Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai".

I think 2 units of good archers are sufficient. In a full stack, I normally need every slot for the infantry and cavalry. I love heavy cavalry, and I love heavy infantry. I don't like everything that moves around like crazy! I think I'm a very lazy general.:laugh4:

[Watchman]

...and given that the oval thureos shield is an originally Celtic design, and used quite widely by their units, a whole lot of Celtic troops could perfectly legitimately be called "Celtic thureophoroi". ~;p

[chairman]

Ah! That makes sense. I don't I have had a chance to use them yet as I've only really played Rome and especially Carthage.

About the archers and slingers, I've found myself using gobs of them; some of my armies in Iberia had as many as 4 Numidian archers AND 4 Balearic slingers. Of course, then I transfered some of those forces to Northern Italy and had to deal with Rome's spammed stacks of Triarii and Pedites Extraodinarii. AGGGHHH!!! So I left the archers as garrison or let them take casualties for my other troops and replaced them with med/hvy infantry wherever I could find them. My Balearic slingers had the unfortunate tendancy to get caught too slow by the vanguard of enemy forces before they could pull behind my infantry, something my archers never had to deal with. I am constantly recruiting replacements in Bocchoris in groups of 4 or 6! Those Romani spammed elites can be annoying when they come turn after turn.

Chairman

[Eduorius]

Last time I post this :yes:

First Punic War – Africa

Under the control of the Greek mercenary Xanthippus. Armies like this one were raised against foreign invaders like the Romans.
12000 infantry (citizen phalanx and some mercenaries)
4000 cavalry
100 elephants

with EB units

1 General
Cavalry
2 units of Numidian cavalry
2 units of Sacred Band cavalry
2-3 units of elephants
Infantry
1 units of Misteret Izrahim Tsarim (Phoenician citizen phalanx)
3 units of Dorkim Lubaim-Ponnim Mesoarianim (Liby-Phoenician heavy infantry)
1 unit of mercenary (Lybian, Spanish, Gallic)

* The number of elephants is hard to estimate. It could be even 4 if you have the money to go for it.


Second Punic War – Italy

The army that Hannibal used for his campaign in Italy after recruiting some Gallic mercenaries in the north of Italy. A lot of soldiers from different nations.
10/ 12000 Africans (4000 light)
7/8000 Spania (4000 light)
10/15000 Celts
4000 Numidian cavalry
4000 Celtic heavy cavaly
2000 Spanish heavy cavalry

with EB units

1 General
Infantry
1 unit of Balearic light infantry
1 unit of Balearic slingers
1 unit of Iberian caetrati
1 unit of Iberian loricati scutari
2 units of Numidian skirmishers
2 unit of Gaesatae
3 units of Geroas
2 units of Aanatim Aloopim (Elite African pikemen)
1 unit of Dorkim Aloopim (Elite African swordsmen)
Cavalry
2 units of Numidian cavalry
2 units of Brhentin (Gallic noble cavalry)
1 unit of Iberi Lanceari


*Hannibal brought elephants, but many of them died and could only be used in Trebia. Also after Cannae, Hannibal recruited local Italian troops like Samnites and Bruttians. I chose the loricati scutari instead of the normal scutari to show that some of Hannibal’s soldiers use captured Roman weapons. The important to see here is that there were as many Gauls as Africans and that Hannibal had a lot of cavalry.


Second Punic War – Hispania

Based on the army of Hasdrubal Gisgo and Magon Barca at the battle of Ilipa
50/70000 infantry
4000 cavalry
32 elephants

with EB units

1 General
Cavalry
1 unit of Numidian cavalry
1 unit of Iberi cavalry (lanceari, cursi, equites caetrati)
2 units of elephants
Infantry
1 units of Misteret Izrahim Tsarim (Phoenician citizen phalanx)
1 units of Dorkim Lubaim-Ponnim Mesoarianim (Liby-Phoenician heavy infantry)
2 units of Aanatim Lubim (Lybian spearmen)
4 units of Aanatim Aloopim (Elite African pikemen)
4 units of Iberi infantry
1 unit of Balearic light infantry
1 unit of Balearic slingers
1 unit of Numidian skirmishers

[chairman]

Sorry, Edourius.:laugh4:

I'm kinda jealous since your lists look better than mine. Of course I'm using limited modern history books (still great though) while you must be using primary sources or the most accurate modern calculations of period armies. Guess that's what you get when you're in charge of the Historical Battles section of the mod. Did I mention that I was jealous?

Chairman

[Emperor Burakuku]

Also note that the carthaginian Sophets had no military duties (regarding realism). So I guess the Sophet must remain in your capital and not go on the battlefield himself. As for the armies I would stick to Edorius' version and I would repeat what Konny said: the armies of Carthago were the exact opposite of Rome's - composed of lots of different units but with a liby-phoenician (or lybian) core. Good luck with your campaign! :2thumbsup:

[QuintusSertorius]

There wasn't really a "standard" Carthaginian army, each one was different. One thing they often did was ensure troops weren't operating in their homelands - you try to avoid using Iberian troops in Spain where they could defect or mutiny, Numidian troops in Africa and so on.

If you were sticking to straight "realism" it might even be more appropriate to hire generals to lead your armies, rather than using family members. There were some Carthaginian noblemen who lead armies, but they weren't politicians usually. Instead politics and religion were paired.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Only change I'd make to Hannibal's army in northern Italy is to give him one unit of Forest Elephants (preferably heavily depleted after fighting it's way through Gaul) and one less Gallic Noble Cavalry.

Just so you have a few elephants in Hannibal's first battle with the Romans.

Once the elephant unit is destroyed another Gallic cavalry unit can be hired (heavy or light) to replace it.

[phred]

To my knowlegde, hardly any details about the African wars of Karthago (of which there must have been a plenty) are known. Chariots are not mentioned in the battles against the Romans in Africa, ASFAIK. So they were certainly out of use in the 3rd Century.

I've seen chariots mentioned in a book on the Punic Wars. I believe the book mentions chariots being on Carthage's roster around the start of the First Punic War, and using that as an example of how their army was a bit outmoded. The book is called "The Punic Wars" but I can't remember the author - I think it was written in the 1980-1990 timeframe. I'll look up the exact reference when I get home tonight. I may be misremembering -it's been a while since I read the book.