The Pope invents 'Seven Sins for the Modern World' theory [Archive]

Rhyfelwyr

03-12-2008, 00:18

Just caught this on the BBC last night, but couldn't find anything on their website to give you all a nice linky.

Anyway, the Vatican has decided that the original seven deadly sins are no longer enough, and so has came up with seven more for the 'modern world'.

Among these sins are genetic modification, human experimentation, and obscene wealth. Not exactly sins I would imagine average Catholics commit. Of course, the Papacy feels the need to get everyone into their Confessions, and so his Hatness stuck 'polluting the environment' onto his list. So yes, you will now have to tell your local priest if you use to many plastic bags, or even leave a light on when you don't need it.

Apparently the Pope feels he has the authority to do this.:shrug:

Ronin

03-12-2008, 01:17

I wonder if God sent a fax or something..."add this to the list guys"

how full of yourself do you have to be to just make this kind of stuff up? :laugh4:

LittleGrizzly

03-12-2008, 02:12

So does he claim this is from God ? or is it more a case of he reaches decisions which God wanted him to reach ?

Adrian II

03-12-2008, 02:15

So does he claim this is from God ? or is it more a case of he reaches decisions which God wanted him to reach ?Thou shalt not carry thy groceries in plastic bags?.. :inquisitive:

Big_John

03-12-2008, 02:20

I wonder if God sent a fax or something..."add this to the list guys"e-mail, i'd hope.

how full of yourself do you have to be to just make this kind of stuff up? :laugh4:well, he is the pope.. i mean if anyone has the authority to do it, he would. right? though.. wasn't this some bishop or something that came up with this?

anyway, are these actually supposed to be an official addendum to the original 7 mortal sins or just, like, bad things of the modern world? i mean, are you supposed to do all the confession or penitence or whatever if you sneak out at night and manipulate genes?

a hilarious list anyway.

CountArach

03-12-2008, 07:10

Observe: The Pope attempts to grasp for relevance.

HoreTore

03-12-2008, 07:56

They put social injustice as a sin.

Now that's actually something I can support.

CountArach

03-12-2008, 08:00

They put social injustice as a sin.

Now that's actually something I can support.
That one confused me... isn't denouncing Homosexuals socially unjust?

Banquo's Ghost

03-12-2008, 08:05

I hate to interrupt the cascade of papal abuse, but it might help your careful and balanced deliberations to know that the "list" was offered by Monsignor Gianfranco Girotti, the head of the Apostolic Penitentiary, in an interview with the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano.

He was asked what, in his opinion, were the new sins. Sadly, as with many churchmen these days, he sought to connect with modern day transience rather than offer traditional clarity. Most of his "new" sins (as the Holy See has since pointed out) can be placed in the context of existing doctrine.

Where you might all have much more of a field day is that the Monsignor was also asked about the "scandal and sin" of the abuse and cover-up allegations, particularly in the States, and appeared - whilst accepting some degree of penitence - to level most of the blame at the media, which he believes should equally (!) be denounced for "discrediting the church". Sigh.

Apologies for the disappointing facts. I return you to your regularly scheduled rants.

:bow:

HoreTore

03-12-2008, 08:38

That one confused me... isn't denouncing Homosexuals socially unjust?

Economic social injustice, CA...

On that area, (parts of) the catholic church has done a lot. Like the priest in my sig.

Fragony

03-12-2008, 09:29

About time Seven gets a sequal that movie was awesome

Sigurd

03-12-2008, 10:24

obscene wealth.
I wonder which of the churches falls under this category? :beam:

Alexander the Pretty Good

03-12-2008, 11:01

About time Seven gets a sequal that movie was awesome
lol!

I wonder which of the churches falls under this category?
Not too many Catholic ones, least not in the States, to my knowledge.

Thanks for the clarification, Banquo.

The genetic modification bit seems silly to me - the Church has never condemned genetic modification through breeding (heck, one of the forefathers of genetics was a monk, forget his name). Seems that more artificial methods aren't too much worth, combined with the potential benefits (including stuff like feeding more people).

Big_John

03-12-2008, 11:04

lol!

Not too many Catholic ones, least not in the States, to my knowledge.

Thanks for the clarification, Banquo.

The genetic modification bit seems silly to me - the Church has never condemned genetic modification through breeding (heck, one of the forefathers of genetics was a monk, forget his name). Seems that more artificial methods aren't too much worth, combined with the potential benefits (including stuff like feeding more people).you're probably thinking of gregor mendel.

Alexander the Pretty Good

03-12-2008, 11:29

That's the guy.

Ja'chyra

03-12-2008, 12:22

I would imagine the church is worried about Man playing God.

Ronin

03-12-2008, 12:37

I wonder which of the churches falls under this category? :beam:

I´m sure the pope is begging for forgiveness for that one right now :juggle2:

KukriKhan

03-12-2008, 14:44

For those interested,

The original 7 deadlies
Pride
Envy
Gluttony
Lust
Anger
Greed
Sloth

and 7 Modern evils:
Environmental pollution
Genetic manipulation
Accumulating excessive wealth
Inflicting poverty
Drug trafficking and consumption
Morally debatable experiments
Violation of fundamental rights of human nature

The Pope's comments on the "results" of the seminar, which examined sin-confessing, were:

"We are losing the notion of sin," he said. "If people do not confess regularly, they risk slowing their spiritual rhythm," ...

I'm no expert on Church Law, but I don't think his remarks, or the seminar's findings, amount to an ex cathedra pronouncement. More like a non-binding opinion, to further discussion.

ICantSpellDawg

03-12-2008, 15:01

That is not what the Church is doing here - it has been played up by people who dislike the church.

One BBC article claimed that the new sins would eventually be added to the 10 commandments....

What the church is actually doing is adding things to it's list of mortal (as opposed to venial) sins. That list is already longer than 7.

The MSM likes to mock things like this, even though it is consistent. Most of the new additions are already covered by the umbrella terms (sloth, Greed, gluttony, etc.) but serve to illuminate a deeper meaning for the modern would-be penitent who likes to find loopholes in morality.

Here are two links:

Mortal Sin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin)+

Venial Sin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venial_sin)

Gregoshi

03-12-2008, 15:05

A few thousand years of progress since the original 7 sins and they can only come up with 7 more?

Mikeus Caesar

03-12-2008, 15:06

ICantSpellDawg

03-12-2008, 15:08

I personally find the whole concept of the church having to have any list of sin absurd.

Surely, if you believe in God, it is up to you to find the power within yourself and your belief to follow what you believe is a good and moral life? Not some old men in some shiny buildings in Italy?

That's what would make you a protestant. Or a non-believer.

Ronin

03-12-2008, 15:08

I personally find the whole concept of the church having to have any list of sin absurd.

Surely, if you believe in God, it is up to you to find the power within yourself and your belief to follow what you believe is a good and moral life? Not some old men in some shiny buildings in Italy?

but...if everyone creates their own personal relation with faith how can those old men get power?

it seems we have stumble upon the basis for organized religion....

Conradus

03-12-2008, 15:12

Was the original list of seven sins every officially recognized by the church and taken in their scriptures?
I thought not, but could be wrong.

Husar

03-12-2008, 15:15

Most of you are going to hell for your posts here. ~:pissed:

And when you're make sure to look out for the Pope and laugh at him... ~;)

Mikeus Caesar

03-12-2008, 15:25

but...if everyone creates their own personal relation with faith how can those old men get power?

it seems we have stumble upon the basis for organized religion....

Oh crud, and now i've destroyed the world.

If i recall correctly, that would happen to be the basis for the Quaker movement. I think.

TuffStuff - it wouldn't make you a non-believer or a protestant, it would just make you independently minded. Heaven forbid we think for ourselves, rather than some old men who are so out of touch with the world it's laughable. No, instead, let's just be good sheep and stay with the crowd.

ICantSpellDawg

03-12-2008, 15:34

Oh crud, and now i've destroyed the world.

If i recall correctly, that would happen to be the basis for the Quaker movement. I think.

TuffStuff - it wouldn't make you a non-believer or a protestant, it would just make you independently minded. Heaven forbid we think for ourselves, rather than some old men who are so out of touch with the world it's laughable. No, instead, let's just be good sheep and stay with the crowd.

I'm agnostic, but I defend decent men and women.

Mikeus Caesar

03-12-2008, 15:42

I'm agnostic, but I defend decent men and women.

I hardly consider a man who is against people's choices in life as decent.

If this 'decent' man had his way, there'd be absolutely no genetic research, no real science, no freedoms for those who have alternative lifestyles. He's like a nazi.

in b4 godwin's law.

Geoffrey S

03-12-2008, 15:51

How is this creating a fuss? It's obvious to any even remotely sensible interpretation that the Church is simply showing how the classic seven sins are still more than applicable in the modern day, illuminated with the above examples. Arguably, polluting the environment is a form of sloth, genetic manipulation of pride.

All this fear-mongering makes my head spin.

One BBC article claimed that the new sins would eventually be added to the 10 commandments....

Those newly risking eternal punishment include drug pushers, the obscenely wealthy, and scientists who manipulate human genes. So "thou shalt not carry out morally dubious scientific experiments" or "thou shalt not pollute the earth" might one day be added to the Ten Commandments.
And that didn't set off any sarcasm alerts?

Fragony

03-12-2008, 16:02

Most of you are going to hell for your posts here. ~:pissed:

Abandon all pope. Yep I go to hell but only to level 2!

ICantSpellDawg

03-12-2008, 16:05

KukriKhan

03-12-2008, 16:22

Was the original list of seven sins every officially recognized by the church and taken in their scriptures?
I thought not, but could be wrong.

Good question. John Cassian (360 - 435), after scouring the bible, wrote his list of "principal obstacles to perfection" that monks encoutered (he was a french monk). A hundred years later, Pope St. Gregory ("the great") refined them into the list we have today.

So, there is no "list", as such, in the bible; rather, they were gleaned as a summary of various parts of both the Old and New Testaments. Then included in the Catechism.

Seven hundred years later, Dante expanded on and popularized the concept, when he made levels of hell corresponding to the 7 "deadlies". Here's a fairly good Discussion Link (http://www.whitestonejournal.com/seven_deadly_sins/), outlining the evolution and history of "the seven".

Rhyfelwyr

03-12-2008, 16:23

Most of you are going to hell for your posts here. ~:pissed:

And when you're make sure to look out for the Pope and laugh at him... ~;)

Don't worry, I'll just tell a priest and then it's all good!:2thumbsup:

Also why do people here defend a church that has made a point of systematically denying any freedom of religion to its 'traditional' followers, whether they be Protestants or even just Jansenist Catholics?

Although I do agree with HoreTore, the church has in recent years played a much more positive role in society, most notably on the economic equality side. That however comes down to the good work of individual Catholics, maybe the Pope should lead by example and not live in such obscenely luxurious conditions himself?

And on the 'morally debatable' experiments, if they are 'morally debatable' then shouldn't the Vatican actually work out which ones are/are not morally acceptable and give their followers some feed back so they can make sure they are not sinning?

The whole new list seems pointless to me though. As far as I can see they all pretty clearly fall under the original sins, and if the point in them is to stop people in the modern world jumping through loopholes, then that just sounds like an excuse. Somehow I doubt God judges people on technicalities.

Gregoshi

03-12-2008, 16:50

A hundred years later, Pope St. Gregory ("the great")...
No relationship obviously...

HoreTore

03-12-2008, 20:01

Although I do agree with HoreTore, the church has in recent years played a much more positive role in society, most notably on the economic equality side. That however comes down to the good work of individual Catholics, maybe the Pope should lead by example and not live in such obscenely luxurious conditions himself?

A significant part of the catholic priesthood have done a lot in that area. Some of them have even understood that people need food more than they need the bible.

And the catholics have certainly done a lot more in that area than the lutherans have.

seireikhaan

03-12-2008, 23:47

I hardly consider a man who is against people's choices in life as decent.

If this 'decent' man had his way, there'd be absolutely no genetic research, no real science, no freedoms for those who have alternative lifestyles. He's like a nazi.

in b4 godwin's law.
Hmm...apparently you have little concept of what most modern catholics are like. To claim the Pope as a Nazi is, frankly, offensive and utterly insane. Nazi's killed and rounded up those they hate. If you want people who REALLY hate gays, go down to the American south and meet a bunch of the 'friendly' baptists. The vast majority of Catholics would very much disagree with abortion and homosexuality; however, they aren't going to murder people and lock them up for it. Ask any Catholic and they'll tell you the right to life is the most important of them all. Otherwise, I very much doubt that there'd be any gays at my CATHOLIC high school. :juggle: The Pope's primary concern, and the stated goal of the church is to help people get to heaven. Homosexuality is, as most know, condemned by the Bible, and thus is seen as an immoral act. Thus, many catholics view their goal with gays is to urge them to a life of chastity, so that they may have a better chance of attaining heaven. Not a particularly fun life, but one that supposedly will aid them in the next life, if one believes in that sort of thing. As for abortion; here's a snippet from a Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=aizloDFbRPRM&refer=uk) source.

Pope Benedict XVI has spoken out on social issues throughout his three-year papacy. He backs a current political initiative to outlaw abortions after 90 days and encouraged Catholics to abstain from a 2005 referendum on easing restrictive laws on fertility treatments, which failed to achieve the 50 percent participation level to make the vote to change the law binding.

I personally found it interesting that he would, apparently, support abortion before 3 months have passed; we're always taught that life begins at conception, and hence, abortion is killing an innocent child. So apparently its okay to get an abortion before 90 days, according to El Papa? Doesn't seem horribly intolerant to me...

Rhyfelwyr

03-13-2008, 00:25

A significant part of the catholic priesthood have done a lot in that area. Some of them have even understood that people need food more than they need the bible.

And the catholics have certainly done a lot more in that area than the lutherans have.

Well here in Scotland both Catholic and Protestant organisations (mainly Calvinist Presbyterians, not lutherans) basically had a race in order to provide shelter and welfare for all those who needed it. It was all pretty opportunistic, aiming to get the people into their respective congregations. In particular the Papacy's turnaround on issues such as democracy and social welfare has been largely for their own interests, becoming 'defenders of the people'. The Papacy showed a lot less respect for democracy in the past, look at Northern Ireland. It will take a lot of aid to ever repair the damage the Vatican's policies have caused in several areas of the world.

On the issues kamikhaan raised, I suppose we should 'hate the sin and not the person'. Both Catholics and Protestants share largely their views on abortion etc, its not so much to do with Catholicism as any general form of Christianity.

HoreTore

03-13-2008, 19:03

Well here in Scotland both Catholic and Protestant organisations (mainly Calvinist Presbyterians, not lutherans) basically had a race in order to provide shelter and welfare for all those who needed it. It was all pretty opportunistic, aiming to get the people into their respective congregations. In particular the Papacy's turnaround on issues such as democracy and social welfare has been largely for their own interests, becoming 'defenders of the people'. The Papacy showed a lot less respect for democracy in the past, look at Northern Ireland. It will take a lot of aid to ever repair the damage the Vatican's policies have caused in several areas of the world.

Yeah, I was talking about outside the western world.

Though they have allied with fascist dictators a lot of the time, they have also allied revolutionaries and so on, and for that I think they deserve some praise. Like the priest in my sig.

ajaxfetish

03-14-2008, 03:19

ICantSpellDawg

03-14-2008, 16:06

naut

03-14-2008, 16:32

I wish I could totally articulate how I feel spiritually. But I have neither the time nor the words.

Any way on topic, I think the Pope should stop condemning people and perhaps work to help them. But that's just silly idealism.

ICantSpellDawg

03-14-2008, 16:54

Mortal sins un-confessed or repented for are supposed to simply separate one from God by free will.

What is this "Hell" that the "evil" pope is accused of condemning us to?

Hell, by my Catholic understanding, is simply the state of separation from God in life and death. Those who are unrepentant for mortal sin condemn themselves.

This isn't necessarily like some sort of fiery prison, but a state of existence away from God.

What if someone said that those who smoke a pack a day "condemn" themselves to death by either cancer or some sort of lung disease. Irrespective of "how you feel spiritually" this will most likely be the case, so why attack the messenger for "not being inclusive". If he says nothing and ignores it will you not get cancer or emphysema? maybe, but probably not.

Why is he not allowed to direct you in a positive course of action if he believes it to be of importance to your health?

Is the Catholic church not helping people? Are you serious?

Who is doing more? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities)

ajaxfetish

03-14-2008, 22:16

Are you a Mormon? I like Mormons - they remind me of Catholics. Reviled by Protestants and more interesting in their faith.
A Mormon I am. :hide:

Ajax

Evil_Maniac From Mars

03-15-2008, 06:31

Don't worry, I'll just tell a priest and then it's all good!:2thumbsup:

Meaning what you say in confession is also rather important for getting into heaven...

Soulforged

03-15-2008, 14:16

and 7 Modern evils:
Environmental pollution
Genetic manipulation
Accumulating excessive wealth
Inflicting poverty
Drug trafficking and consumption
Morally debatable experiments
Violation of fundamental rights of human nature

They cannot be that stupid can they? These are not only prohibited by law in almost every single country I know, they're also just the consequences of the other sins. Some of them are even implied between them like the first and the last, or the third and the fourth.

This not only reeks of silliness but also of authoritarianism, which is an explosive combination. With all this time in his hands why doesn't he starts doing something about these "modern evils" (which are in fact not particularily modern at all) instead of riding his high horse once again.

Accumulating excessive wealth... the irony...

Rhyfelwyr

03-16-2008, 00:32

As BG and TuffStuff have pointed out, this new list is qualitatively different from the '7 deadly sins.' I've always thought of the deadly sins not so much as sins of commission (how do you commit avarice?), but as states of mind or qualitities of attitude that lead one to a sinful life. They are the roots of sin, not the individual immoral acts one might commit. The list currently under discussion is clearly not about such states of mind, but about the individual acts of immorality one should avoid, according to the cardinal in question. Each one would be linked to one or more of the 7 deadlies as its root cause.

Ajax

Bah!

The fact it is designed to get people into the Confession box, which is in itself so fundamentally wrong, is the worst thing about this new list.

The one about the 'morally debatable experiments' is my favourite though. Why doesn't the Vatican just do a little debating so people actually know whether its OK or not?

EDIT: Wow four posts when I was typing this up. As for the charities, I'm not sure that is because all Catholics are more generous than protestants, his Hatness being a good example. Being a united church, it is a lot easier to form big umbrella organisations and work efficiently together. Plus there are other factors, such as where the church has influence etc.

And no matter what the Papacy says, 'through faith alone you shall be saved'. The Pope cannot overrule the Bible.

woad&fangs

03-16-2008, 00:47

Environmental pollution
Dear Mr. Pope,

Is that a breath of CO2 I see you exhaling? Don't you know that CO2 creates a green house gas effect? For the good of your soul, please refrain from breathing in the future.

Edit: Pointing out hypocrisy in the Catholic church is too easy. I must seek out a more challenging prey.

:cougar_mode_on:

ICantSpellDawg

03-16-2008, 01:51

The Roman Catholic church will be around long after we are dead and after the U.S. folds and closes up shop. Blow it out yer butts.

KukriKhan

03-16-2008, 02:00

Edit: Pointing out hypocrisy in the Catholic church is too easy. I must seek out a more challenging prey.

I guess you're right there, w&f. I must admit, for the life of me, I can't understand how catholics and their head-guy get such a bad rap from those not even in their church. I mean: it's not like the pope is boss of the world, and everybody must obey/agree with him, or he garners tribute from non-catholics; so what's the fuss?

Why atheists, agnostics, protestants, hindus, or animists care what he says is beyond me.

So, discussion about the relevance or advisability of "new" sins having effectively ceased in favor of a pope/catholic bashfest, we'll close this thread.

Thanks for all contributions. :bow: