Oklahoma House Bill 2211

[Big_John]

link (http://www.okhouse.gov/okhousemedia/PrintStory.aspx?NewsID=1351)
Reynolds to File Religious Freedom Bill for Oklahoma Students
11/26/2007

Contact: State Rep. Mike Reynolds
Capitol: (405) 557-7337
OKLAHOMA CITY (November 26, 2007) – State Rep. Mike Reynolds plans to file legislation creating a Religious Viewpoints Anti-Discrimination Act that will create a level playing field for religious and secular expression in Oklahoma’s public schools.
"Oklahoma families need to know their children will not be persecuted for exercising their constitutional rights and expressing religious beliefs at school," said Reynolds, R-Oklahoma City. "While students and guest speakers can’t use state resources to proselytize, they have every right to express their personal beliefs and should be given the same protections afforded non-religious or even anti-religious officials."
The legislation, modeled after a Texas law, states, "A school district shall treat a student’s voluntary expression of a religious viewpoint, if any, on an otherwise permissible subject in the same manner the district treats a student’s voluntary expression of a secular or other viewpoint on an otherwise permissible subject and may not discriminate against the student based on a religious viewpoint expressed by the student on an otherwise permissible subject."
The legislation will include safeguards to assure individual religious viewpoints are not censored in limited public forums for student speakers, that speaker selection will be based on neutral criteria, and that disclaimers must be read or printed clearly establishing the individual nature of the expressed viewpoint.
Reynolds’ legislation will require schools to adopt new anti-discrimination policies covering Student Expression of Religious Viewpoints, Student Speakers at Non-Graduation Events, Student Speakers at Graduation Ceremonies, Religious Expressions in Class Assignments, and Freedom to Organize Religious Groups and Activities.
"This law will level the playing field for religious students and ensure they don’t have to waive their constitutional rights when they walk through the school doors," Reynolds said. "My bill complies with U.S. Supreme Court rulings and I expect it will receive broad bipartisan support."
The Oklahoma Legislature will convene for its 2008 session in early February.

discuss.








just kidding, BG. :creep:

ok, so this bill's creators promote it as fostering religious tolerance in the classroom. laudable? very probably. but one thing sticks out in the wording indicated in the link.
Reynolds’ legislation will require schools to adopt new anti-discrimination policies covering Student Expression of Religious Viewpoints, Student Speakers at Non-Graduation Events, Student Speakers at Graduation Ceremonies, Religious Expressions in Class Assignments, and Freedom to Organize Religious Groups and Activities.hmm. what could that mean exactly? i must warn you, i'm wearing a tinfoil turban, but that sounds suspiciously like saying a student could answer "6000 years" to "what is the age of the earth?" on an earth science test, and it would be illegal to mark that answer incorrect.

i must warn you, i'm also wearing magic underwear under the tinfoil turban.



p.s. the bill just passed the house education committee, is expected to pass the full house and then go before the senate (no idea about the predicted outcome there). i think a similar bill has been enacted in texas and another may have been shot down in kansas, but don't quote me on either of those.

[CountArach]

Hmmm I have no problem with this bill, except for where it infinges upon science. Students should be taught and tested on scientific fact, whereas this allows for many loopholes to that.

By the way - isn't freedom of religion already covered by the constitution?

[Big_John]

Hmmm I have no problem with this bill, except for where it infinges upon science. Students should be taught and tested on scientific fact, whereas this allows for many loopholes to that.

By the way - isn't freedom of religion already covered by the constitution?basically. but it's consitutional law, so naturally it's murky. part of the first amendment, called the free exercise clause states that the government "shall make no law infringing upon the free exercise thereof" (paraphrasing, i had con law last year and hated it). but that's obviously open to interpretation. is being able to replace correct evaluations with buddhist aphorisms for a math equation necessary to the "free exercise" of religion? is the school infringing upon free exercise if a bible story in response to a science question gets an F from teacher?

some people would think allowing such in public schools violates another part of the first amendment, the establishment clause. but i imagine the courts will ultimately decide.

[Husar]

Well, forcing a student to write 6 billion years when he actually believes it to be 6000 years is not only not going to change his mind, she/he will also feel oppressed and pressured to write down lies which will also make her/him feel bad because she/he may think it's a sin to lie in tests.

Then again you're always supposed to just write whatever the teacher wants to hear whether it's complete bollox or not, that's how you get them good grades and "qualifications"...

And then of course you could circumvent this so easily by simply staking the territorry of the question or the test by not asking "How old is earth?" but "How old is earth according to the theory of evolution?" I don't see why anyone would have to have a problem answering this, it being part of the curriculum shouldn't be a problem either, there are other things people believe they'll never need again in the curriculum as well. ~;)

[Tribesman]

I take it this legislation is a throwback to the story of the student getting her microphone cutoff during her speech at a school ceremony .
There nust be an election coming up as this seems to address the issue(good publicity for the religeous vote) yet it fails to doing so (thats politics:laugh4: )

[Big_John]

Well, forcing a student to write 6 billion years when he actually believes it to be 6000 years is not only not going to change his mind, she/he will also feel oppressed and pressured to write down lies which will also make her/him feel bad because she/he may think it's a sin to lie in tests.if a student finds scientific truth oppressive, should the schools indulge ignorance?


Then again you're always supposed to just write whatever the teacher wants to hear whether it's complete bollox or not, that's how you get them good grades and "qualifications"...that's largely true for the earlier levels of schooling that i encountered. there are good reasons for that dynamic for early years, imo. but you need to not have dumbasses for teachers, which can be a difficult proposition.


And then of course you could circumvent this so easily by simply staking the territorry of the question or the test by not asking "How old is earth?" but "How old is earth according to the theory of evolution?" I don't see why anyone would have to have a problem answering this, it being part of the curriculum shouldn't be a problem either, there are other things people believe they'll never need again in the curriculum as well. ~;)biological evolution has almost nothing to say about the age of the earth.* i see 2211 is having an impact already... ~;)



*it could be used to fudge a minimum age, i suppose

[Ronin]

Well, forcing a student to write 6 billion years when he actually believes it to be 6000 years is not only not going to change his mind, she/he will also feel oppressed and pressured to write down lies which will also make her/him feel bad because she/he may think it's a sin to lie in tests.

Then again you're always supposed to just write whatever the teacher wants to hear whether it's complete bollox or not, that's how you get them good grades and "qualifications"...

And then of course you could circumvent this so easily by simply staking the territorry of the question or the test by not asking "How old is earth?" but "How old is earth according to the theory of evolution?" I don't see why anyone would have to have a problem answering this, it being part of the curriculum shouldn't be a problem either, there are other things people believe they'll never need again in the curriculum as well. ~;)

the tests aren´t supposed to change your mind....they are supposed to ascertain your knowledge level about a certain scientific subject.

if you want to purposedly fail the test by providing scientifically incorrect answers that´s your right....but to claim you are somehow being opressed because your faith based answer is marked as wrong scientifically is just silly...

so we mark bible-based answers as correct...then what? what else should we accept as a valid source of alternative answers? the Torah? the Quran? The Grimm Brothers collected fairytales? I mean where does the sillyness stop?

Also...as was already pointed out....the Theory of Evolution does not provide an answer for the age of the earth.....it´s the other way around...the calculated age of the earth makes the Evolution Theory possible.

[KukriKhan]

There nust be an election coming up as this seems to address the issue(good publicity for the religeous vote) yet it fails to doing so (thats politics:laugh4: )

Indeed. Both Reynolds (sponsor) and Kern (co-sponsor and speaker of youTube anti-gay ranting fame) are up for re-election in November, this year.

[woad&fangs]

On the topic of religious test answers: If the student really cares that much then they can just write According to Modern Science before all of the answers they religiously disagree with. Or the teachers can put "according to modern science" in test questions that might conflict with the teachings of major religions. Since a lot of science is actually theory instead of fact this might be a good way to go anyways.

just a thought.

[KukriKhan]

Side issue: if passed, as woads&fangs points out the onus will be on teachers to be more creative in devising tests to get their desired results; Oklahoma ranks 47th (out of 50) in Teacher payscale. They make less money than a Mailman Link (http://www.sde.state.ok.us/pro/salary.html).

[Vladimir]

DC teachers are some of the highest paid yet have some of the poorest performing students. Quite often you'll find that funding for education and quality of education are inversely proportional.

[KukriKhan]

DC teachers are some of the highest paid yet have some of the poorest performing students. Quite often you'll find that funding for education and quality of education are inversely proportional.

Point taken. I haven't looked up OK's "No Child Left Behind" performance... yet

-edit-
Feb 2008 article (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080228_1__OKLAH62838):


...Spellings said 88 percent of Oklahoma's 1,789 schools meet the No Child Left Behind standards compared to 70 percent nationally...

Better than Calif.

[Tribesman]

DC teachers are some of the highest paid yet have some of the poorest performing students.
Is there a very obvious reason for that ? Would that reason hold true for any capital or major city ?

Quite often you'll find that funding for education and quality of education are inversely proportional.
Is there a very obvious reason for that ?


Indeed. Both Reynolds (sponsor) and Kern (co-sponsor and speaker of youTube anti-gay ranting fame) are up for re-election in November, this year.

Well its only fair isn't it , since Kern is very fundmentalist in her interpretations of scriture I wonder how long until she demands ritual cleansing and seperate facilities so that people are not contaminated by female students having periods . Perhaps even hrow in some sacraficing of doves for good measure .
After all if schools can provide kosher or halal services why can't they provide for an absolute literalist christian fundamentalist requirement...after all it is that literalist approach that is the subject of debate in relation to science education .

[KukriKhan]

Hehe. I will not rest until the poto mitan gets equal placement with the cross, the star, and the crescent in schools.

[Tribesman]

Hehe. I will not rest until the poto mitan gets equal placement with the cross, the star, and the crescent in schools.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: forget that voodoo stuff under equal rights there should be allowed some deflowering of virgins to start the schoolday .
Or they could have lessons like that school in the film "the Wickerman":laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Anyhow , just read some Oklahoma baptist piece against this bill , some interesting stuff .
Consider this in relation to the how old is the earth question , if you wrote "it was created 5 minute ago by the flying spaghetti monster and all other evidence and memories that suggest otherwise were implanted by his noodly appendage to confuse the unbelievers"...that would get a pass wouldn't it .

[Ronin]

Consider this in relation to the how old is the earth question , if you wrote "it was created 5 minute ago by the flying spaghetti monster and all other evidence and memories that suggest otherwise were implanted by his noodly appendage to confuse the unbelievers"...that would get a pass wouldn't it .

can I get a RAMEN? :laugh4:

[KukriKhan]

forget that voodoo stuff under equal rights there should be allowed some deflowering of virgins to start the schoolday

I admit there might be trouble finding an adequate supply (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/story?id=4429246&page=1) of those for ceremonial purposes.

[drone]

can I get a RAMEN? :laugh4:
This thread demands my sig.

Finally, a state that with stop the discrimination of my people. We finally have a promised land. Too bad it's land-locked, the pirates will have a hard time on their pilgrimage. :bow:

[Viking]

ramen!

[Tribesman]

admit there might be trouble finding an adequate supply of those for ceremonial purposes.

No supply shouldn't be a problem , all you have to do is get hold of some of them purity pledge people , they have developed a strange new concept of born again virginity , you could just use them again day after day .

[Big_John]

Point taken. I haven't looked up OK's "No Child Left Behind" performance... yet

-edit-
Feb 2008 article (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080228_1__OKLAH62838):



Better than Calif.no child left behind is a :daisy: joke, btw. the states that perform better under NCLB are the ones that are better at gaming the system. NCLB is the epitome of the the anti-academic bureaucracy that has ruined public schools in this country over the last few decades.