View Full Version : Did Byzantine infantry really lack spears?
I'm just curious why the Byzantine infantry in MTW are armed with swords rather than spears (and swords). I have an old book by the UK-based Wargames Research Group called Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome, where the Byzantine infantry were portrayed as armed with long spears and very large shields. Presumably a natural evolution from the legionnaire in the face of the cavalry and archer heavy Eastern armies they faced. Admittedly this was about 400-500 years before MTW, but I just can't see them deciding to throw away the spears as heavy cavalry became even more powerful.
As might be expected from an empire that lasted for centuries, the composition of their armed forces varied enormously throughout their existence.
I have seen illustrations (contemporary byzantine illustrations) where Byzantine infantry are armed with round shields and spears, but also ones where they have kite-like shields and swords.
I think the designers took one archetype that was otherwise lacking for them, ie swordsmen, and let the other types be covered by 'vanilla' spearmen etc.
Yes, sounds plausible. If the designers ever do a Roman Total War, I hope they allow units to have a little flexibility over use of weapons.
eg the legionnaires could either use swords, throw javelins or use spears.
A kind of natural extension of the alt-left click flexibility given to archers; it would allow for some interesting and historical tactics.
Might also be fun for Mongol type units - I don't know if it is in the MTW write-ups, but I remember reading they often carried a myriad of different weapons for different uses (bow, lance, sword, axe etc).
Lord Krazy
10-08-2002, 15:41
Quote Originally posted by Simon Appleton:
Yes, sounds plausible. If the designers ever do a Roman Total War, I hope they allow units to have a little flexibility over use of weapons.
eg the legionnaires could either use swords, throw javelins or use spears.
A kind of natural extension of the alt-left click flexibility given to archers; it would allow for some interesting and historical tactics.
Might also be fun for Mongol type units - I don't know if it is in the MTW write-ups, but I remember reading they often carried a myriad of different weapons for different uses (bow, lance, sword, axe etc).[/QUOTE]
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Have you not read about the roman mod
I am making a roman that throws javalins
and fights with a sword.
Read as well the dismounting cavalry thread
in the mod forum ,actualy read the moding
forum you might learn something.
LK
anymapkoku
10-08-2002, 15:53
I can't believe we're not still developing Hbombs, I mean those things ruled 50 years ago! Why aren't the marines still using spears, those ruled in 1502ad!
Lord Krazy - did not know there was a modding forum so I have learnt something already. I've only started to get into MTW so I am not looking for a mod right now.
Couldn't find a post about your Roman mod, although of course you can make a javelin throwing swordsman. But I doubt you can get him to switch between a sword (for messy melees) and spear (for anti-cav duty) with the current engine. I suspect that should be an option for many (most?) infantry, Byzantine, Roman, whatever.
Warmaker
10-09-2002, 06:22
LK, looking forward to the Roman mod.
A Roman century throwing pilums to devastate the enemy then crushing them in close quarters with the gladius? Sign me up. An empire needs to be carved in the western world.
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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!
Quote Originally posted by Simon Appleton:
Couldn't find a post about your Roman mod, although of course you can make a javelin throwing swordsman. But I doubt you can get him to switch between a sword (for messy melees) and spear (for anti-cav duty) with the current engine. I suspect that should be an option for many (most?) infantry, Byzantine, Roman, whatever. [/QUOTE]
Unit render is still the same but the stats of unit do give the guys who armed with more than 1 weapon to use all of their weapon.
The archers unit that have sword as side arm will have higher melee.
Javellin thrower will carry javellins and either sword (Kern, Jinettes) or spear (murabitin Inf).
As in the case of Murabitin Inf, if they carry spear, they will have high def/att against cavalry and higher charge bonus.
By modding the stats file, you could simmulate the effect of weapon a unit carries.
Higher melee: this unit has weapon for close quarter combat such as sword, mace, axe.
Def bonus against cav: this unit carries spear/pike.
Att bonus against cav: this unit carries polearm weapon.
Then, if you give a unit a certain type of missile weapon, they will use it too. For example, you could give a unit longbow, high melee, high charge bonus, def bonus against cav to simmulate that the unit carries longbow for skirmish, spear as primary weapon and sword for close quarter H2H combat.
Hakonarson
10-09-2002, 08:05
By 1100 most "native" byzantine infantry were archers - not particularly good or bad ones.
what few native infantry ther ewere weer invariably spearmen - again of no great note.
Just what teh Byzantine infantry in MTW is supposed to represent isn't immediately obvious (ie I have no idea!!).
Perhaps they're a play balance idea like I presume the AUM are - 'cos I can't figure out what they're supposed to represent either.
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