Mongols should be improved

[Dark_Magician]

I think newbie horde units don't fit history-friendly picture thet is in there. The generals - noyons, bogathurs and khans should be nearly maximum level, also units should be of higher ranks.

If it causes balance problems - reduce the size of armies. There's an opinion, that mongol armies were't as "hordic" or huge as it has been pictured at that time, but smaller, sometimes smaller in size than defending forces, but mongols were professional warriors (don't mix with garrison units or smthng - mongol warriors were not only professional in sense they had income from service, but they also fought all the time)

[Orda Khan]

The Mongols should be made playable SP and MP, the heavy cav units should be much faster as they were not heavily armoured. The Mongol horse archers should have much higher morale and stronger attack. These changes would be more in line with historical accuracy.

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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

[Ulug Beg]

Was playing the Russians when the Monguls turned up with 3 armies in a neighbouring province which I had left in rebel hands as Mongol bait. Quaking in my boots I was until looked in their stacks: first stack scary, full of Heavy cav and horse archers, next TWO stacks, I kid you not, 16 ballista units in each!

The patch is going to limit the number of artillery units the AI gets.

[dej2]

Quote Originally posted by Orda Khan:
The Mongols should be made playable SP and MP, [/QUOTE]

I agree... I was hoping for MP Mongols in STW as well. I think the Mongol fans have suffered enough. Some make a pole... should the Mongols become a playable faction?

[MajorFreak]

yeah. quite disappointed really. Got a heartattack when i first saw the hun army, but then realized i had a few 4 stars within reach of Kharzov and loads of garrison units to reinforce (only time i got to enjoy "reinforcing an AI attacked province")...not to mention the first 16 units were just Heavy CAv on a map famous for it's forests -- AND THE HUN CO HAD ZERO COMMAND!!not trying to diss the programmers here, it was a treat to get that surprise. hehe EEEEEEEP! I'd suggest giving their commander about 6 stars. Genghis was a genius. (why not? i get tired sometimes of having ex-heirs with silly experience. guess that's the byzantines for ya)

Let me do some research into Mongols...[/list] Quote Spear: The Mongols often dismounted and fought behind large pavises in siege operations. In open battles in Europe they always fought mounted, however. The justification for the Spear elements is in their warfare in the Orient, especially in the invasions of Japan, where they used large numbers of Korean and Chinese foot equipped with large rectangular pavises of bamboo, and long spears. The spears in particular impressed the Japanese, and were important in the pre-eminence of the Yari in later Japan. Luckily for figure-painters, a sequence of illuminations were made soon after the first Mongol invasion, called the "Invasion Scroll". Most books on Japan at that period will have at least one picture from the Invasion Scroll.

Bow: The Mongols seem to have dismounted their light horse to face elephants in Burma. In those battles they fought as infantry bow. I'm unaware of any other occasion when the Mongols fought as dismounted archers. Note, however, that their spear infantry are usually equipped with bows in addition to spear and pavise; perhaps the 4Bw elements could be considered a missile-emphasized part of such a formation.

~David Kuijt (http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~kuijt/dba154/dba154.html) (2nd slot in google search)[/QUOTE]

As you can see, without spearmen? In woodland? what a joke. I'd suggest they be dismounted for sure, or that general needs a serious boost.

[This message has been edited by MajorFreak (edited 10-08-2002).]

[andrewt]

CA should add more bow types. Foot soldiers only have a sbow or long while there were many types back then. Another one between these two in strength for use by better units like janissaries would be nice.

Same with horse archers having only one kind of bow. More expensive ones like the mongol ones should get a better bow.

[Bob the Insane]

For a simple fix (no new units etc..) I would suggest just making them more aggressive, and giving them more units when they tip you.

I think they suffer because once they are on the map, they maybe aggressive, but most of their forces quickly get bogged down in garrisoning the lands they take. Those lands have probably been held by one faction for a long time and are probably underdeveloped (being on the edge of the map). So once they turn up they have lots of good attacking units which get bogged down in peacekeeping and a limited ability to build new units..

Perhaps another anwer would be to continue adding new units to the map coming from the east for the few turns to bulk their numbers. Also the susgestion about increasing the rating of the generals in their armies is great and I assume would really help in AI vs Ai battles...

[Kraxis]

andrewt... we don't know if units such as Jannisary Archers are more accurate or have more power than Jannisary Infantry. Not yet.

After the patch we will have the projectile file and then we will know for sure. But it certainly seems like all the sbows are equal http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

Command 0??? Then it is no wonder they are beaten so fast. They had possibly the best commanders in the world at the time, they won the battles more than anything else.

We won't see as many siege units after the patch, that is good, then perhaps the Mongols will have a great force.

But if the Mongols manage to hold lands their tech is really low. Only a Horse Breeder and a Bowyer to get the HA and a Horse Breeder and Spearmaker for the HC. Though they seldomly get much money.

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[maroule]

Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:


But if the Mongols manage to hold lands their tech is really low. Only a Horse Breeder and a Bowyer to get the HA and a Horse Breeder and Spearmaker for the HC. Though they seldomly get much money.

[/QUOTE]

It's simpler to exclude them from the normal eco game : instead of having them tech up and build units locally, why not generate free reinforcement in the 2 or 3 years following their first entrance? Besides I agree with boosting their stats AND their numbers AND their general

Another idea : after some time (like 5 years) a good chunck of their army could be eliminated to simulate their forced return to Mongolia for 'election time'...

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

They should have armor-piercing bonuses. I'm working on modding that.

[ravenking]

In reference to the different types of bows: Compound bows are also mentioned in the game. Not sure, but I think some of the Byzantine peeps have compound bows.

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"You there, knight!" "Yes, sir?" "We just lost that battle. Why did you order your men to charge that unit of enemy sergeants?" "Uh, I was impetuous, sir" "'IMPETUOUS!? Impetuous!? Men! Kill him, I want his head!"

[Kraxis]

Yup the Trebizond Archers. They are supposed to have better accuracy and range than normal Archers, but I find them to be equally good/bad in range, while it could be that accuracy is better.

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Jo_Beare]

I was playing as the Russians in the high period. When the Mongols came, they decided to go south and got promptly flattened by the Egyptions. It took them less than 15 years to get thumped from the game by a single computer controlled faction.

JoBeare

[bosdur]

Quote Originally posted by dej2:
I agree... I was hoping for MP Mongols in STW as well. I think the Mongol fans have suffered enough. Some make a pole... should the Mongols become a playable faction?[/QUOTE]


HELL! YEAAAAAA PLZZ

[Hakonarson]

I thought they are playable in mid and late periods??

[cihset]

And I thought they came from Mars...