My first game troubles as England

[Orion66]

Hi all, just wanted to pass on my experience of my first game.
My first mistake was marrying off my princess to the Scot's heir. I was hoping that would give me an in to the Scottish throne through birth. Nothing. So I wasted my princess.
While building chapels and churches to keep the pontiff happy, I expanded my realm on the isles, leaving Scotland alone, since the marriage made us allies. I got control of York, Caernarvon, and Dublin. I also captured Rennes and Bordeaux before the French grabbed them.
I was then gearing up to invade Scotland, updating my armor and producing longbows. I was just about to invade, when the Pope declares a crusade on Antioch. Aargh! Well I still think I have the forces to do the crusade and capture Scotland. I gather up an army under Robert in Caen and proceed to march through Europe enroute to Antioch.
One thing I had noticed but had no idea why it was happening, was a French diplomat was staying next to Caen and the animations looked like he was conducting diplomacy, but I received no diplomacy window, so I forgot about it. It wasn't until my crusaders started there march when I found out that diplomat must've been trying to bribe my guys in Caen. The Frogs attacked me in Bordeaux!
Well, I had Henry there and the French army was really small. The hardest part of that battle was trying to decide which unit of horse I wanted to use to rout them.
Well, after that easy battle, and after chasing another French army out of Caen, I thought I could still do my thing in Scotland. My spy had seen that Edinburgh and Inverness was really weak. So I captured Edinburgh and moved on Inverness.
Now, before I invaded Scotland, I was high in favor with the Pope. The only other nation beside me that went on the crusade was HRE. But after invading Scotland, I was threatened with excommunication! I don't agree with that part. Since capturing Scotland is a victory condition, how can one do that without interference from the Pope. This was only after one turn of war with the Scots. Mind you, the French have warred with me for three turns and their favor with the Pope was higher than mine. Plus, they didn't join the crusade. The player shouldn't be punished more than the AI is.
Another thing, as far as historical accuracy is concerned, the different nations of Europe had warred back and forth many times without such interference from the Pope. Why is the penalty so harsh in game? Much better would be after several turns of war, or maybe warring against alot of Christian countries should bring the Pope's wrath.
After capturing Edinburgh and Inverness, nothing about my defeating the Scots. What does one need to do to actually defeat a faction.
Another thing is my crusading army. After being excommunicated, I got a message that my soldiers were griping about going to slowly to Antioch. I had the army marching to the max distance each turn. I'm guessing the message was triggered by their leige getting excommunicated, but there should've been a different message then.
Also, the idea of having to march an army from Northwest Europe all the way to the Mideast isn't the best way to answer a call to crusade. I didn't want to use up my fleet to do this. There should be a crusade fleet in Italy, ready to take any crusading army the rest of the way.
On a side note, when the French attacked me at Bordeaux, a French noble led them. After their defeat, I decided to ransom the French. I wanted to keep up Henry's chivalry. What did that French b**t*rd do next turn? Attacked me again with a weaker army. I executed him after that.
I've decided to start a new game now that I have a better understanding of the game's workings. Thanks for reading this long post.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

One thing I had noticed but had no idea why it was happening, was a French diplomat was staying next to Caen and the animations looked like he was conducting diplomacy, but I received no diplomacy window, so I forgot about it.

I will let you in on a secret. Most believe this to be an attempt at bribing but not always! After very long exhaustive tests it means that attack is imminent. You can either beef up the garrisons at your border settlements which may deter attack or gift the faction 100 florins using one of your diplomats. They will go away for a few turns. When their diplomat returns again repeating the animations gift them again.

As for the rest. Well the games easy enough. Why make a marriage alliance with scotland for heavens sake and then attack them unless you are wanting excommunication lol

You can hire mercenary fleets to speed your way to Antioch. Also hire a great cross in Sicily or italy for the Crusade. It just wouldn't be right to have a crusade without one.

... btw welcome to the org

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Welcome to the Org.

The pope in this game is very peace loving. He doesn't like wars between Christian factions. He also likes money very much. This is why a lot of players do anything to make the pope happy. They offer him maps, trade rights, an alliance and most important money every turn. If you give the pope some 100 florins per turn and after a conquest some 1000 he will be very happy with you and will forgive you for attacking you Christian brethren. If you don't want to e intervened by the pope include a ballista or catapult in your army and attack and capture your objective within one turn.

The reason why the Scots aren't dead is possibly because they have captured a region in Scandinavia. Sent a spy to Oslo and you will probably see that it is a holiday resort for Scottish refugees.

You crusading army has to go in a direct line toward Antioch. Sailing with a ship around Spain and Portugal isn't a straight line so some of your soldiers will desert and jump overboard. You have to respect their faith for wanting to swim the whole distance from the Atlantic to Antioch :laugh4:

[Brave]

So I wasted my princess.

You did.


Also, the idea of having to march an army from Northwest Europe all the way to the Mideast isn't the best way to answer a call to crusade.

If the crusade is to Antioch you do not need to go, it will be taken rather quickly by neighbouring factions as it is a rebel province. Send your crusading troops to Scotland and keep the Pope happy with gifts.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I will let you in on a secret. Most believe this to be an attempt at bribing but not always! After very long exhaustive tests it means that attack is imminent. You can either beef up the garrisons at your border settlements which may deter attack or gift the faction 100 florins using one of your diplomats. They will go away for a few turns. When their diplomat returns again repeating the animations gift them again.

I hope it doesn't mean attack is immenent. I am playing as England right now, I own the British Isles, north France, and a few places in the Holy Land. However, a Byzantine Princess keeps doing that animation thing at Paris. And a Venetian Diplomat at Metz. Although I don't see why either of these teams would be planning to attack me (although the Venetians do have Bern...).

[Orion66]

All, thanks for the replies.
Nebuchadnezzar, I didn't realize I would enter into an alliance with the marriage. After realizing I made the alliance, I realized that I'd have to break it some time later. Next time I know.

Alphonse, thanks for the info on that. I thought just building churches and spreading the faith was all that was required. I forgot the papacy was more materialistic.

Brave, I thought if my crusaders didn't march toward the objective, they would soon desert. Yes, I may not reach the Mideast in time, but as long as I keep marching towards it, I get the benefit of joining the crusade. Or did I misunderstand how to do crusades?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I hope it doesn't mean attack is immenent. I am playing as England right now, I own the British Isles, north France, and a few places in the Holy Land. However, a Byzantine Princess keeps doing that animation thing at Paris. And a Venetian Diplomat at Metz. Although I don't see why either of these teams would be planning to attack me (although the Venetians do have Bern...).

Afraid it does! You might avoid it if you sufficiently garrison your borders so they go wondering for easier targets or another faction attacks them.

Don't take my word for it try gifting them 100 florins and watch how the diplomat wonders off the next turn even though he was doing the animation thing last 5 turns. If he comes back after a few turns see what happens if you don't gift them.

[Yaropolk]

I'll have to disagree about diplomat animation indicating an attack. This bug is a personal pet peeve of mine. I've had it happen for tens of turns in a row by enemies, neutrals, and allies with no results other than to annoy me during end-of-turn. Best I can figure is that my neighbors want to give my jr. assassins a chance to hone their skill on an annoying diplomat.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'm not sure its a bug. I would be interested to know why you think it might be. I remember from RTW that the advisor hinted an attack was to come during similar diplomat animations. In most of my campaigns it showed the faction has changed their priorities to war even though a turn or two earlier it was peace. In some campaigns I have managed to totally avoid any conflict with my neighbours simply by gifting 100 florins each time I see the animation. The only factions I was at war with was as a result of crusades. Its always worked for me!

When using assassins then you would have noticed that killing the diplomat changes little as they always send another if you haven't picked them all of that is although it may be to a different settlement

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hi all, just wanted to pass on my experience of my first game.
My first mistake was marrying off my princess to the Scot's heir. I was hoping that would give me an in to the Scottish throne through birth. Nothing. So I wasted my princess.

Indeed you did, the only thing you can do with princesses is steal the enemy general and conduct diplomacy. Any low-loyalty general is a prime target for this marriage. Any other use for her is a waste.

On a totally seperate issue: Marriage to another faction for diplomatic reasons? Who does this? They will betray you anyway.


While building chapels and churches to keep the pontiff happy, I expanded my realm on the isles, leaving Scotland alone, since the marriage made us allies. I got control of York, Caernarvon, and Dublin. I also captured Rennes and Bordeaux before the French grabbed them.
I was then gearing up to invade Scotland, updating my armor and producing longbows. I was just about to invade, when the Pope declares a crusade on Antioch.

You do not have to respond to the pope's commands.

Aargh! Well I still think I have the forces to do the crusade and capture Scotland. I gather up an army under Robert in Caen and proceed to march through Europe enroute to Antioch.

From England, the best route is to march almost all the way south with a bit of an eastern tilt, through France, and then take a boat ride to Italy, come ashore, march across, take a boat ride past the greek isles and into Antioch.

Use merc ships, and don't dilly dally. Also, everyone in the crusade stack should actually have joined the crusade. Any non-crusaders slow you down. And if you have artillery, you're just asking for troubles.

One thing I had noticed but had no idea why it was happening, was a French diplomat was staying next to Caen and the animations looked like he was conducting diplomacy, but I received no diplomacy window, so I forgot about it. It wasn't until my crusaders started there march when I found out that diplomat must've been trying to bribe my guys in Caen. The Frogs attacked me in Bordeaux!

The diplomat is offering something, but the diplomacy window doesnt come up. He might be offering a bribe as well. But it's a known bug.

Well, I had Henry there and the French army was really small. The hardest part of that battle was trying to decide which unit of horse I wanted to use to rout them.
Well, after that easy battle, and after chasing another French army out of Caen, I thought I could still do my thing in Scotland. My spy had seen that Edinburgh and Inverness was really weak. So I captured Edinburgh and moved on Inverness.
Now, before I invaded Scotland, I was high in favor with the Pope. The only other nation beside me that went on the crusade was HRE. But after invading Scotland, I was threatened with excommunication!

That's absolutely normal. As the HRE, I conquered the entire map in 28 turns, and was excommunicated three times, and went on two crusades.

Check my sig for more details.

I don't agree with that part. Since capturing Scotland is a victory condition, how can one do that without interference from the Pope.

Simple: You attack Scotland and ignore the Pointy-hatted one.
Then you slay the current Pope. Then you kill your faction leader or elect a new pope from one of YOUR cardinals. Boom. Problem solved.

This was only after one turn of war with the Scots. Mind you, the French have warred with me for three turns and their favor with the Pope was higher than mine.

If their favor is higher to begin with, the Pope will hate YOU for not pressing peace, not the aggressor. If they enter into a seige situation, often times they break the seige at the last minute because they were warned. If you goad them into attacking then, they get excommunicated.

Sometimes it is worth leaving a province undergarrisoned to provoke an attack, and excommunicate the idiots.


Plus, they didn't join the crusade. The player shouldn't be punished more than the AI is.

There is some element of random chance to getting "warned" or "asked" not to attack a faction. If you're warned not to, it says "you will be excommunicated". If you're asked not to, it says "you may be excommunicated". If it says you "may be", then plant one unit on their port, an aggressive action that would otherwise get you excommunicated, but not as aggressive as attacking their cities. Then, you fail the mission, and can attack the city.

Buggy.

Another thing, as far as historical accuracy is concerned, the different nations of Europe had warred back and forth many times without such interference from the Pope.

An historically accurate game would prevent the player from having variety as all events would simply repeat themselves. Also, for gameplay and balance, the Pope is there as a sort of "mediator".


Why is the penalty so harsh in game? Much better would be after several turns of war, or maybe warring against alot of Christian countries should bring the Pope's wrath.

I would tend to agree. But... if I can lay seige to all of France in one turn, and then burn it all down the next... wouldnt that warrant excommunication?


After capturing Edinburgh and Inverness, nothing about my defeating the Scots. What does one need to do to actually defeat a faction.

Every family member must die, or all provinces must be liberated.

Check Ireland, Belgium, and Norway. They sometimes migrate there.

Another thing is my crusading army. After being excommunicated, I got a message that my soldiers were griping about going to slowly to Antioch.

Any faction who is excommunicated is no longer a "Catholic" faction by the Pope's standards, and in the eyes of the people, you are unworthy of being the leader of a HOLY army. All crusaders disband the immediate next turn because of the excommunication, not distance travelled per turn.


I had the army marching to the max distance each turn. I'm guessing the message was triggered by their leige getting excommunicated, but there should've been a different message then.

Perhaps so! Another small error.

Also, the idea of having to march an army from Northwest Europe all the way to the Mideast isn't the best way to answer a call to crusade. I didn't want to use up my fleet to do this. There should be a crusade fleet in Italy, ready to take any crusading army the rest of the way.

There are almost ALWAYS crusader mercs available, in all seas and all regions, unless someone has recently hired them.

On a side note, when the French attacked me at Bordeaux, a French noble led them. After their defeat, I decided to ransom the French. I wanted to keep up Henry's chivalry. What did that French b**t*rd do next turn? Attacked me again with a weaker army. I executed him after that.
I've decided to start a new game now that I have a better understanding of the game's workings. Thanks for reading this long post.

You're welcome. I hope my tips and answers were useful. My responses in bold.
Click on the link in my spoiler regarding the HRE campaign, it will teach you much you dont know about the game yet.

[MerlinusCDXX]

On the Diplomat animation, I've tested this in a few campaigns, what it seems to be, is that diplomacy is bugged so that AI factions cannot initiate diplomacy other than to as for alliance, trade rights, or ceasefire/become vassal. If an AI diplomat is doing the animation to my town or diplomat, I'll send a diplomat to initiate with that faction, offering some token offer without demands. Most of the time you'll get a counter offer from them stating what they really want from you. I'm hesitant to go with the idea that this "bugged diplomacy" means an imminent attack, because when it happens in my campaigns, it is usually my allies that do it , and they usually want me to attack one of my neighbors that they are at war with. It seems that the AI cannot initiate diplomacy to ask you to attack their enemies, but can counter-offer it if you initiate the diplomacy (BTW I've made good money and even gotten settlements out of attacking an ally's enemies, it's also a good bargaining chip to get one way military access to their lands :pirate2: )

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Its interesting how any successful diplomatic offer which is offered after seeing the animation effect seems to appease them. Why this is so I don't know but offering 100 florins does seem to have the same calming effect.

The fact that I find this animation effect from Neutrals, At war & Allied factions makes me rather skeptical that they want Allied assistance. I also notice that their priorities always have changed to at least " Military" if not "war".

I made some notes in my Polish campaign where Venice (Neutrals), HRE (Allies) & Hungary (Allied) all did this animation effect. Next turn Venice attacked but 4 turns later the others have not attacked yet but were noticed stalking around my settlements clearly looking for easy targets until they were attacked by Milan and withdrew. This is pretty much consistent with my other campaigns.

[Old Geezer]

Does the Pope's diplomat ever just hang around one of your cities (if you are not at war with him)? I can't remember one doing so in the last year of playing. I think that they are low-level spying efforts, when the AI can't think of anything else to do with the diplomat. I rarely, if ever, get this behavior from an ally with whom I have decent relations.

[MerlinusCDXX]

@ Nebuchadnezzar, I have seen neutrals and at war factions do the "unresolved" animation thing also. I wasn't saying that the "weird diplomacy" means only that an ally wants military assistance. I was suggesting that diplomacy is bugged to the point that an AI faction can't initiate ANY "advanced diplomacy" without the human player opening the scroll. This includes "give _____, accept or we will attack" offers, which are what neutrals and enemies are mostly trying to do (IMO).

[Callahan9119]

oh man, was the enter key ever more needed :dizzy2:

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I was suggesting that diplomacy is bugged to the point that an AI faction can't initiate ANY "advanced diplomacy" without the human player opening the scroll. This includes "give _____, accept or we will attack" offers, which are what neutrals and enemies are mostly trying to do (IMO).

I agree diplomacy is bugged. If you manage to find its limitations and bugs you can use it for ridiculous money & settlement exploits thats why I tend not to use it for anything more than traderights & vassals. But if this animation effect is another bug then its one carried in from RTW.