Olympic Snubs over Tibet

[Ronin]

The Portuguese President declines invitation to be in the Opening of the Olympics...

*sorry only Portuguese news source*
President Cavaco Silva declines Chinese invitation (http://ultimahora.publico.clix.pt/noticia.aspx?id=1323178&idCanal=12)

"Portugal will only be represented at the ceremony by the Secretary of State for the field of Sport, after President Cavaco Silva declined an invitation for the event, the office of the President would not comment on the reasons for this but it is widely believed that this is in connection with the latest developments in Tibet"


I normally don´t agree with the men politically....but for once I have to say 'Well done Mr. President' :applause: ~:thumb:

I´ll be on a personal boycott of the Olympics this year anyway.

[Fragony]

Respect for the portugese PM

[Mithrandir]

I´ll be on a personal boycott of the Olympics this year anyway.

Me too, I'll leave the gold for others this year.

[Ronin]

Respect for the portugese PM

This is the Portuguese President.... the Portuguese Prime Minister is another guy....

[InsaneApache]

As a subject to Her Majesty, he gets confused. :smash:

[Fragony]

Well respect for him then, got to love a politician that has the balls to make a stand, kudo's for portugal :2thumbsup:

[Geoffrey S]

Somehow, I have my doubts about the merits of reinstating an archaic theocracy.

[Mikeus Caesar]

I can only hope more countries follow suit, maybe even have a few major ones have a complete boycott.

Maybe then China will get the message that absorbing other countries into your country is not acceptable in this day and age.

[Ronin]

Somehow, I have my doubts about the merits of reinstating an archaic theocracy.


No one is saying that the previous Tibet government was a good one....

And I know that lots of people just look at the Dalai Lama and make that mistake...


But China has lots of things wrong with it even if you don´t consider the Tibet issue...why the IOC decide to sanction all that by giving them the games I´ll never know...

[Kralizec]

:shrug:

I think it's, in itself, a noble thing to do...but it isn't going to make a difference unless more government leaders follow.

[Pannonian]

I can only hope more countries follow suit, maybe even have a few major ones have a complete boycott.

Maybe then China will get the message that absorbing other countries into your country is not acceptable in this day and age.
The Chinese don't really think that way. They think that Tibet is an integral part of China, that took advantage of the weakness of late Qing to break away, was reintegrated, but wants to break away again. A comparison may be made with the confederacy, which was also forcibly reintegrated into the US.

[Incongruous]

Uuuh, they are a different ethnicity, culture and country.
They were part o an Empire, not a nation. So I don't think there is a valid comparison there.

[Slyspy]

Somehow, I have my doubts about the merits of reinstating an archaic theocracy.

At least it was theirs.

[Pannonian]

Uuuh, they are a different ethnicity, culture and country.
They were part o an Empire, not a nation. So I don't think there is a valid comparison there.
The Republic of China claims authority over all of Qing China. So does the People's Republic. Both the mainland and the integrationists in Taiwan claim Tibet to be part of China, as defined by the borders at the turn of the 20th century. I think they've got used to the loss of Mongolia now (although their maps still read "Outer Mongolia", as in the province), but every Chinese map, whichever side of the civil conflict they fall on, includes Tibet and Xinjiang as part of China.

IMHO the Chinese should take up the Dalai Lama's offer to negotiate a semi-autonomous status for tibet, as even he says that independence is neither realistic nor desirable, and that all he asks for is cultural autonomy in return for Beijing's government in secular and civil affairs.

[Marshal Murat]

The Dalai Lama is willing to negotiate, and he doesn't even want an independent Tibet. The Dalai Lama has always said that he wants a semi-autonomous or autonomous Tibet, one free from the social controls of China. The Chinese control everything, and have been importing Han and Hui Chinese, forcing Tibetans to conform to the Communist Atheist ideals. The Tibetan people are being attacked culturally and socially. They don't have a problem paying the taxes, they just don't want to lose their identity to the Chinese.

I think that the Chinese stubborn refusal to negotiate with the terrorist Dalai Lama has dug them into a hole. A hole that to get out, they would have to admit that they were wrong, and governments hate that. The Chinese can only try to play this as the law and order, which is understandable, but they can't really spin this effectively. It's disgusting how this is allowed to go on, but it's 'Made in China'.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Uuuh, they are a different ethnicity, culture and country.

True enough, but China contains many different distinct ethnicities, such as Mongols - indeed, more Mongols than Mongolia itself.

[HoreTore]

Uuuh, they are a different ethnicity, culture and country.
They were part o an Empire, not a nation. So I don't think there is a valid comparison there.

What about the numerous states in Russia who wants to break away? They fit that description perfectly too.

Are we boycotting Russia too now?

Oh, might as well throw Spain in there as well... The Basques have their own culture, ethnicity and language, and they were absorbed by the spanish crown... Hey, what about Sameland in northern Norway, Sweden and Finland? Gotta boycott them(us) too. Hmm... Perhaps the native americans want their land back?

[Incongruous]

What about the numerous states in Russia who wants to break away? They fit that description perfectly too.

Are we boycotting Russia too now?

Oh, might as well throw Spain in there as well... The Basques have their own culture, ethnicity and language, and they were absorbed by the spanish crown... Hey, what about Sameland in northern Norway, Sweden and Finland? Gotta boycott them(us) too. Hmm... Perhaps the native americans want their land back?

Does stormin'Norman need an axe aswell?

I was talking about the comparison made.
I mean, Tibet was originally it's own Kingdom. China was an Empire, not a nation state. Kosovo was never it's own kingdom, but it got freedom.

[DemonArchangel]

The Dalai Lama is willing to negotiate, and he doesn't even want an independent Tibet. The Dalai Lama has always said that he wants a semi-autonomous or autonomous Tibet, one free from the social controls of China. The Chinese control everything, and have been importing Han and Hui Chinese, forcing Tibetans to conform to the Communist Atheist ideals. The Tibetan people are being attacked culturally and socially. They don't have a problem paying the taxes, they just don't want to lose their identity to the Chinese.

I think that the Chinese stubborn refusal to negotiate with the terrorist Dalai Lama has dug them into a hole. A hole that to get out, they would have to admit that they were wrong, and governments hate that. The Chinese can only try to play this as the law and order, which is understandable, but they can't really spin this effectively. It's disgusting how this is allowed to go on, but it's 'Made in China'.

Unfortunately, the pissing contest in that section of the world is somewhat older than communism. Much, much, much older than communism, Mao, or anything like that. The Chinese have been at odds with the Tibetans in some shape or form since the 800s A.D.

As an additional note, there is also no such thing as "Han" or "Hui" because China is extremely complex in terms of ethnicity. Han is just a generic description of Chinese that don't know what they are, and Hui is just a Chinese Muslim.

[Quirinus]

Oh, might as well throw Spain in there as well... The Basques have their own culture, ethnicity and language, and they were absorbed by the spanish crown...
Uh..... don't they have self-government? Basque Country Autonomous Community?

[Oleander Ardens]

Being a member of an minority which became part of another nation in rather or better very debatable fashion I sensitive about those issues. More so as I have met some very nice Tibetans on the Indian side of the Himalaya. But even an unbiased viewer must register that large nations have the unpleasent tendency to regard the often beneficial calls for autonomy as seperatism. By doing so they often get a rally for seperatism by the oppressed peoples. Then things tend to get bloody.

[naut]

Boycott China '08! YEH! Hi five, Portugal!

[HoreTore]

Uh..... don't they have self-government? Basque Country Autonomous Community?

Yeah. Call the ETA, they're not too happy about it.

Yes, I know that the Dalai Lama says he doesn't want a completely independent Tibet. He should say that to the organizations called "Free Tibet", etc...

Though I suppose that "Negotiate A Semi-Autonomous Tibet" isn't as catchy as "Free Tibet"...

[Sarmatian]

Isn't this againt the entire idea and purpose of the Olympic games? I mean this is supposed to be something that connects people, that brings them together, regardless of politics and war... About people, not about goverment policies.

[Geoffrey S]

Politics enter the matter as soon as a country claims the right to host such Games, as soon as it states that it is worthy to be host to a long tradition - as soon as it does so, people have a right to expect certain standards. Arguably, this is not the case in China.

[Moros]

It's not like Tibet is the only reason to boycot the games either.

[woad&fangs]

Tibet pales in comparison to Darfur. Darfur is the very definition of a genocide and the Chinese government funded the perpetrators:shame: .

China claiming their boundaries to be that of a former empire is idiotic. Using that logic they should be split up between Japan, Mongolia, and a half dozen European countries.

[Pannonian]

Can the UK boycott the Games as well? That way, we can blame our lack of medals on our clean moral conscience, rather than our crap athletes.


China claiming their boundaries to be that of a former empire is idiotic. Using that logic they should be split up between Japan, Mongolia, and a half dozen European countries.
Do you support the Dalai Lama's position on Tibet?

[Mikeus Caesar]

Tibet pales in comparison to Darfur. Darfur is the very definition of a genocide and the Chinese government funded the perpetrators:shame: .

China claiming their boundaries to be that of a former empire is idiotic. Using that logic they should be split up between Japan, Mongolia, and a half dozen European countries.

Indeed. By that logic, we shouldn't have given them back Hong Kong because it was part of our former empire. But then they'd throw a hissy-fit wouldn't they, because us 'imperialists' are in the wrong. And China is in the right. Because obviously China is never in the wrong...

[Sarmatian]

Hong Kong wasn't British. You got Hong Kong on a lease for 99 years.

Any national olympic commitee that refuses to participate in the Olympics should be fined and/or suspended by the IOC.

[Pannonian]

Indeed. By that logic, we shouldn't have given them back Hong Kong because it was part of our former empire. But then they'd throw a hissy-fit wouldn't they, because us 'imperialists' are in the wrong. And China is in the right. Because obviously China is never in the wrong...
Did any Chinese government formally give Tibet its independence, or sign over its control, as was the case with Hong Kong? Or did it achieve de facto independence during a time when the Chinese government wasn't able to contest it? If the latter, did the Chinese government not have the right to reassert its control voer the area when it had the means to do so?

AFAIK successor states are supposed to inherit all the territories and obligations of its predecessor. Eg. The Republic of China observed all the treaties that were signed by its predecessor, Qing China. In its turn, the People's Republic of China observed all the treaties signed by its predecessors that hadn't yet lapsed. Similarly the Republic of China claimed all the territories that belonged to Qing China at the time of the handover, and in turn the People's Republic of China claimed all the territories that belonged to the Republic of China at the time of the handover.

[woad&fangs]

Do you support the Dalai Lama's position on Tibet?

Yes. It would be easier to negotiate that than full independence and I think it would be the better economic choice.

[Geoffrey S]

Can the UK boycott the Games as well? That way, we can blame our lack of medals on our clean moral conscience, rather than our crap athletes.
I'd be surprised if the mens coxless four doesn't get gold...

[Papewaio]

Hong Kong wasn't British. You got Hong Kong on a lease for 99 years.


Which during that lease period was British... as in laws, taxes, defense and access to Commonwealth countries.

There are plenty of Hong Kong citizens who immigrated with relative ease to Australia.

[El Diablo]

Think that you will struggle to fine countries for non-attendance considering the huge numbers of countires that have boycotted before...

The "West" in Moscow 1980 and The "East" and much of Africa in Los Angles 1984. The West and East because of differing sides the cold war and Africa because of New Zealands terrible decision to permit a South African rugby to tour in 1981.

Sport and Politics are always going to be linked. Look even at events in the Olympics - The Munich killings and the black power salutes for example.

The Oylimpic is a nice idea in a not so nice or ideal world.

[Tribesman]

Any national olympic commitee that refuses to participate in the Olympics should be fined and/or suspended by the IOC.

Fine the IOC for awarding China the games .


Tibet pales in comparison to Darfur. Darfur is the very definition of a genocide and the Chinese government funded the perpetrators .

So did the British and the Indians to name just two more .

[Goofball]

Any national olympic commitee that refuses to participate in the Olympics should be fined and/or suspended by the IOC.

I agree completely. The Olympic games should remain as unpolitical as possible. I think any country that boycotts the games should be disqualified from participating in the next set of games as well.

[Oleander Ardens]

A rather rediculous argument given that the Chinese do everything to make out of the Olympic games a propaganda statement which puts former spins to shame. I guess you too love to have "harmonic" and "peaceful" games.

[Tribesman]

I agree completely. The Olympic games should remain as unpolitical as possible. I think any country that boycotts the games should be disqualified from participating in the next set of games as well.

That can't work since there are valid grounds for any boycott , China is abusing the sport for its own political propoganda , thats a violation of the olympic charter that is:yes:
Then again a boycott for political reasons would also be a violation of the charter ...
Perhaps its time to say bollox to the whole olympic show and put it back into storage .

[Big_John]

restore the caliphate!

[CrossLOPER]

Perhaps its time to say bollox to the whole olympic show and put it back into storage .

restore the caliphate!
Hey guys, Cypselus just became the first tyrant in Corinth!

[Pannonian]

restore the caliphate!
The Caliphate didn't stretch as far as China. They were both taken over by Tolui's kids though.

[Papewaio]

Olympic Games.

A place for company sponsors to loudly place colourful swatches of their logo on form hugging lycra wrapping a not likely to be 100% organic piece of meat.

Sounds like a turkey to me.

[Big_John]

The Caliphate didn't stretch as far as China.:brood:

[Sarmatian]

That can't work since there are valid grounds for any boycott , China is abusing the sport for its own political propoganda , thats a violation of the olympic charter that is:yes:
Then again a boycott for political reasons would also be a violation of the charter ...
Perhaps its time to say bollox to the whole olympic show and put it back into storage .

And how would you define what Bush did with the winter olympics in Salt Lake City. Number one, there was a flag of WTC there and as a rule only flags of participating countries are allowed. Number two, Bush held a speech instead of IOC president. Number three, he used his speech for his political agendas.

But in case of China, that is wrong, and everyone should boycott the Olympics :dizzy2:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That can't work since there are valid grounds for any boycott , China is abusing the sport for its own political propoganda , thats a violation of the olympic charter that is:yes:

Everyone uses the Olympic Games for their "political propaganda", to a certain extent. It's almost as bad as Eurovision.

[Tribesman]

It's almost as bad as Eurovision.
Sounds like a cue for a turkey to appear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z28STzFIFBU
:2thumbsup:

[Furious Mental]

Every country uses the Olympic Games to show off a bit. But the 2008 Olympics take it to extremes because:
- The Chinese government sought the nomination for a political purpose i.e. to bignote itself as a great power; and
- Preparation for the Olympics has often been conducted in a manner that is offensive to our supposed principles; in order to ensure that it all works perfectly and there are no embarrassments the government has locked up dissidents, stolen water from bankrupt farmers, moved millions of people and businesses around the country for the purposes of a spectacle like some backwards monarchy, one could go on.

So the Olympics was political from the very moment that Beijing was given the nomination. And even if they weren't, what sort of message does it now send to just treat these Olympics as business as usual? That we are happy for governments to lock people up as prisoners of conscience and treat their populations like cattle if it means we get a nice sports event and can pat ourselves on the back for understanding "Asian values" or respecting "sovereign rights" (what the hell happened to respecting human rights, anyway?)? Bollocks to that.

[Pannonian]

Every country uses the Olympic Games to show off a bit. But the 2008 Olympics take it to extremes because:
- The Chinese government sought the nomination for a political purpose i.e. to bignote itself as a great power; and
- Preparation for the Olympics has often been conducted in a manner that is offensive to our supposed principles; in order to ensure that it all works perfectly and there are no embarrassments the government has locked up dissidents, stolen water from bankrupt farmers, moved millions of people and businesses around the country for the purposes of a spectacle like some backwards monarchy, one could go on.

So the Olympics was political from the very moment that Beijing was given the nomination. And even if they weren't, what sort of message does it now send to just treat these Olympics as business as usual? That we are happy for governments to lock people up as prisoners of conscience and treat their populations like cattle if it means we get a nice sports event and can pat ourselves on the back for understanding "Asian values?"
Or perhaps one should just not judge at all. Within reasonable limits, states are allowed to deal with internal affairs as they like. What China is doing in Tibet is minor compared to what we're tolerating elsewhere in the world, and unlike these countries that aren't in the spotlight, we have little leverage over the Chinese. Put it simply, if you don't like what the Chinese are doing, what can you do about it?

The best we can do is persuade the Chinese and Tibetan leaderships to negotiate some kind of settlement, one that will inevitably overwhelmingly favour the Chinese. However, by backing independence movements and their supporters, which even the Tibetan leaders consider as extremist, even this food scraps possibility is undermined.

[Furious Mental]

What can we do about it? We can't do anything in "hard power" terms. But the mere fact that we can't control the Chinese government does not mean we are obliged to grin nicely and shake its blood soaked hands. On top of that, I think you underestimate the extent to which the Chinese government cares about appearances. As I pointed out above, it has gone to extraordinary lengths in terms of both extravagance and authoritarianism to ensure that presents a perfect image to the world; it desperately wants not to be embarrassed in any way.

I will have to admit that I have an ulterior motivation, although my position would be the same regardless- I do not care about the Olympics as a sporting event and won't be devastated if they don't happen. But I would be immensely entertained to see the Chinese Communist Party get all pissed off.

[Geoffrey S]

Oh well. Whatever the politics, I'm looking forward to watching at least the rowing races, since there are a number of teams and rowers that are currently at a truly exceptional level. Though even that was somewhat messed about with the Russian men's eight and their doping.

[Pannonian]

What can we do about it? We can't do anything in "hard power" terms. But the mere fact that we can't control the Chinese government does not mean we are obliged to grin nicely and shake its blood soaked hands. On top of that, I think you underestimate the extent to which the Chinese government cares about appearances. As I pointed out above, it has gone to extraordinary lengths in terms of both extravagance and authoritarianism to ensure that presents a perfect image to the world; it desperately wants not to be embarrassed in any way.

There is no point is shaking our heads and wringing our hands if it doesn't help matters. If doing so actively hinders matters, then not only does it not help, it makes things worse. The Dalai Lama has come to a realisation that the Free Tibet supporters are still oblivious to - independence isn't going to happen. Instead, he's trying to get the best deal he realistically can. Despite that, the Free Tibet people insist on keeping their moral highground, despite the awful effects this has in practice. I wonder what they'll do if the Dalai Lama carries out his threat of resigning from leading the government in exile if the violence doesn't stop. Will they just find another figurehead to rally behind?


I will have to admit that I have an ulterior motivation, although my position would be the same regardless- I do not care about the Olympics as a sporting event and won't be devastated if they don't happen. But I would be immensely entertained to see the Chinese Communist Party get all pissed off.
Poor reasoning. Seeing the CCP pissed off isn't worth the detrimental effect it will have on the Tibetans, who aren't our playthings. The best realistic scenario for the Tibetans requires the Chinese to allow some concessions, and they won't do that if they're pissed off. Instead, they'll just take out their annoyance on the Tibetans. The Olympics won't last for long. Are you prepared to see its aftereffects on the Tibetans, just so you can have a laugh at the Chinese leadership?

[Furious Mental]

I said that my position would be the same regardless. What part of that don't you understand? And I never mentioned Tibet. Tibet is doomed since eventually there will be so many Han there the nation will cease to exist in a cultural as well as political sense. Whether or not the Olympics are boycotted won't change that. But the way the Chinese government has reacted to Tibetan protests is a relatively minor matter compared to its facilitation of genocide and state terrorism in Sudan and Burma. On top of that, call me crazy, call me a fanatic, but I have this strange hang up with corrupt one party states that lock people up for having opinions and threaten small countries with nuclear weapons. China is using the event to portray itself as a magnamanious great power even as it has missiles pointed at Taiwan and ship loads of guns destined for death squads elsewhere in the world. Is every government and leader too cowardly to point this out? At exactly what point are countries that supposedly give a damn about human rights actually going to put their money where their mouth is? Supposedly we cared about human rights when they were being trampled on by the Soviet Union, but is that just because they didn't have lucrative partnerships with Google, Volkswagon, McDonalds and our other multinational friends? I guess human rights are something that matter only when they are being abused by communists that don't manufacture our televisions.

[RoadKill]

Sigh.... So many fools. Some of you really need to research and understand both sides of the story.

Yes genocide was being committed in Tibet by the Chinese goverment. But right now China arn't a bunch of stupid little :furious3: . They have plans to solve this, knowing that their olympics is in a state of jepordy. For a while now China has been trying to stop the riots and fix the problems. The soldiers arn't in there, at the moment, to kill them, god. They're there right now to stop the riots. There was an interview with serveral chinese soldiers in teh hospital. When he and his team were sent in to stop some rioters from setting fire to a building WITH NON-LETHAL weapon. They soon couldn't handle the problem and were told to retreat. The rioters then chased the police officers with knives and cut them up pretty bad and some retard takes a picture of the police officer hitting the rioter with a stick. DUDE! :daisy:! The guys stabbing the :daisy: out of him, and the officer gets in trouble with the world for hitting him back with a :furious3: stick. There has also been another photo sent out by the media that there were a heavy military actions. BUT if those stupid little :furious3: would even look at the picture it was obvious that the two soldiers were trying to get some people onto the ambulance. But the :furious3: little reporter decided to say that the ambulance was a :furious3: assault car. Like seriously there was even a redcross on the car. Seriosly I could go on. But the western media is spewing out stuff to slander China. Seriously when Canada (I am Canadian) lets Quebec have his indepedence, and the U.S.A let the Texas republics (not sure wut its called) have their independence. Then they can go tell China to stop. I'm not saying that the genocide they are committing is right, but sometimes you got to understand both sides of the story.

Sorry for the spazz, but it pisses me off. Sorry about the language as well.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Sigh.... So many fools. Some of you really need to research and understand both sides of the story.

Yes genocide was being committed in Tibet by the Chinese goverment. But right now China arn't a bunch of stupid little :furious3: . They have plans to solve this, knowing that their olympics is in a state of jepordy. For a while now China has been trying to stop the riots and fix the problems. The soldiers arn't in there, at the moment, to kill them, god. They're there right now to stop the riots. There was an interview with serveral chinese soldiers in teh hospital. When he and his team were sent in to stop some rioters from setting fire to a building WITH NON-LETHAL weapon. They soon couldn't handle the problem and were told to retreat. The rioters then chased the police officers with knives and cut them up pretty bad and some retard takes a picture of the police officer hitting the rioter with a stick. DUDE! :daisy:! The guys stabbing the :daisy: out of him, and the officer gets in trouble with the world for hitting him back with a :furious3: stick. There has also been another photo sent out by the media that there were a heavy military actions. BUT if those stupid little :furious3: would even look at the picture it was obvious that the two soldiers were trying to get some people onto the ambulance. But the :furious3: little reporter decided to say that the ambulance was a :furious3: assault car. Like seriously there was even a redcross on the car. Seriosly I could go on. But the western media is spewing out stuff to slander China. Seriously when Canada (I am Canadian) lets Quebec have his indepedence, and the U.S.A let the Texas republics (not sure wut its called) have their independence. Then they can go tell China to stop. I'm not saying that the genocide they are committing is right, but sometimes you got to understand both sides of the story.

Sorry for the spazz, but it pisses me off. Sorry about the language as well.

Any chance we could get some links to these pics?

Oh and since when was Texas the state with the most credible claim to independence? Both California and Texas had a lot of US help in their little wars of independence. Vermont on the other hand helped out the US (saving its bacon at the Battle of Bennington and thus setting the stage for the Battle of Saratoga) and Vermont remained independent for around 13 years with a president, far more egalitarian constitution and the ability to prevent encroachment by New Yorkers and redcoats!

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Sounds like a cue for a turkey to appear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z28STzFIFBU
:2thumbsup:

Please, no. I've already died inside once.

[Innocentius]

This political correctness is becoming increasingly embarassing. Who cares what the Chinese are doing? This is sports! Sports are a substitute for war, where countries can compete with each other and feel very proud and nationalistic without anyone getting hurt, so keep the two, sports and politics, apart. Far apart. (Second thought: just ban sports, that way I won't have to see the crap everywhere all the time.)

Besides, what exactly are you supposed to achieve with this boycott? Will China rethink its politics and doings in Tibet, come to a realisation that Western values are far superior to their own and come begging for forgiveness? I find that to be a most unlikely scenario, what I do find likely however is that these pathetic boycotts won't achieve anything, except for perhaps annoying some poor Chinese workers involved in the organization of the opening ceremony.

[Furious Mental]

Yes, the Chinese government wants the rest of the world to be polite and not do anything political while it conducts a huge display of rank nationalism. It is complete hypocrisy, and the notion that these Olympics were ever apolitical or ever could have been given the Chinese government's attitude to them (i.e. they are a propaganda tool for both domestic and international purposes) is complete and utter nonsense. You may as well ask for a Communist Party rally to be apolitical. The idea that "no one is hurt" by these Olympics is also total garbage when you consider the amazing and oppressive lengths that the government is going to to present a perfect picture for the world- vast areas of agricultural land have been starved of water to keep Beijing's "rivers" looking like pristine streams, and of course plenty of dissidents have been summarily thrown in gaol to stop them causing any embarrassment. And, of course, the poor Chinese workers whom the government has threatened to fine hundreds of yuan if they use the toilets in stadiums they built, lest foreigners are put off by the thought of using the same latrine as a dirty Beijing resident. If the government in any Western country conducted itself in this way to put on a sports event people would be outraged, and also revolted at the notion that they can be bought off with clean dunnies and fake rivers. It is quite ironic actually- Westerners always express disdain for all those dumb Third Worlders that let themselves get bought off by demagogues with "bread and circuses", but they're letting the Chinese government do it to them right now.

The notion that a boycott would inevitably be pointless is a dubious proposition anyway because the immense effort the Chinese government has gone to in organising the Olympics shows it desperately wants everyone to show up for its debutante's ball.

[Incongruous]

This political correctness is becoming increasingly embarassing. Who cares what the Chinese are doing? This is sports! Sports are a substitute for war, where countries can compete with each other and feel very proud and nationalistic without anyone getting hurt, so keep the two, sports and politics, apart. Far apart. (Second thought: just ban sports, that way I won't have to see the crap everywhere all the time.)

Besides, what exactly are you supposed to achieve with this boycott? Will China rethink its politics and doings in Tibet, come to a realisation that Western values are far superior to their own and come begging for forgiveness? I find that to be a most unlikely scenario, what I do find likely however is that these pathetic boycotts won't achieve anything, except for perhaps annoying some poor Chinese workers involved in the organization of the opening ceremony.

Haha, trading the opressed for the opressed are we?
Just keep the ol' well it will only hurt some poor (insert the opressed here) so dont do it line.
Classic rubbish.

[Viking]

Sigh.... So many fools. Some of you really need to research and understand both sides of the story.


Reliable sources. Your post looks like nothing but pro-authoritarian propaganda. :juggle2:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Reliable sources. Your post looks like nothing but pro-authoritarian propaganda. :juggle2:

He's right, you know. Everyone over here (read: The West) is making a big deal about Tibet, without actually reading from the Chinese perspective.

At the same time, isn't it a bit hypocritical of us to call for an end to propaganda and political motives for the games, and at the same time boycotting them to get a political change?

[Furious Mental]

It is going to be politics and propaganda anyway, the Chinese government just wants it to be propaganda and politics in a way it is comfortable with and which it controls. Why should we acquiesce in that? Especially when it is the same double-standard that operates in Chinese foreign policy- exporting arms to genocidaires to buy influence and make a quick buck is "apolitical" and no one else's business, national sovereignty, cultural affinity to authoritarianism bla bla bla bla.

[Geoffrey S]

Oh, I don't know. Let's boycott Britain in 2012 over its involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan or something. Because that is the can of worms opened if you seriously want to do something about Tibet and China (for which I see damned little reason, regardless).

[Sarmatian]

Yes, the Chinese government wants the rest of the world to be polite and not do anything political while it conducts a huge display of rank nationalism. It is complete hypocrisy, and the notion that these Olympics were ever apolitical or ever could have been given the Chinese government's attitude to them (i.e. they are a propaganda tool for both domestic and international purposes) is complete and utter nonsense. You may as well ask for a Communist Party rally to be apolitical. The idea that "no one is hurt" by these Olympics is also total garbage when you consider the amazing and oppressive lengths that the government is going to to present a perfect picture for the world- vast areas of agricultural land have been starved of water to keep Beijing's "rivers" looking like pristine streams, and of course plenty of dissidents have been summarily thrown in gaol to stop them causing any embarrassment. And, of course, the poor Chinese workers whom the government has threatened to fine hundreds of yuan if they use the toilets in stadiums they built, lest foreigners are put off by the thought of using the same latrine as a dirty Beijing resident. If the government in any Western country conducted itself in this way to put on a sports event people would be outraged, and also revolted at the notion that they can be bought off with clean dunnies and fake rivers. It is quite ironic actually- Westerners always express disdain for all those dumb Third Worlders that let themselves get bought off by demagogues with "bread and circuses", but they're letting the Chinese government do it to them right now.

The notion that a boycott would inevitably be pointless is a dubious proposition anyway because the immense effort the Chinese government has gone to in organising the Olympics shows it desperately wants everyone to show up for its debutante's ball.


That's what countries do everywhere. Don't you think that if Englands get's the World Cup or Euro football championship it's going to take special care of football hulligans for example.

Croatian police went to great lengths to remove posters and to paint over the graffiti that generally called people who disaggree with Bush and American policies that they should appear during his speech and voice that disagreement. The posters and graffiti said something like "let's not allow only obedient cattle at the speech of an international terrorist". The police removed those posters and painted over the graffiti and tried to find those responsible for the action and "detain" them during Bush's visit, so that Mr. Iraq-has-weapons-of-mass-destruction wouldn't feel uncomfortable.

Where's freedom of speech there? But no one cares cause it is a: 1) small country and 2) US ally...

[Viking]

He's right, you know. Everyone over here (read: The West) is making a big deal about Tibet, without actually reading from the Chinese perspective.

I do not find it worth much to read the perspective of authoritarian regime like that of China, Human Rights Watch is infinitely more trustworthy in this matter. :juggle2:



At the same time, isn't it a bit hypocritical of us to call for an end to propaganda and political motives for the games, and at the same time boycotting them to get a political change?

The point was not to end Chinese propaganda, but to put pressure on them regarding the Tibet issue.


That's what countries do everywhere. Don't you think that if Englands get's the World Cup or Euro football championship it's going to take special care of football hulligans for example.

Croatian police went to great lengths to remove posters and to paint over the graffiti that generally called people who disaggree with Bush and American policies that they should appear during his speech and voice that disagreement. The posters and graffiti said something like "let's not allow only obedient cattle at the speech of an international terrorist". The police removed those posters and painted over the graffiti and tried to find those responsible for the action and "detain" them during Bush's visit, so that Mr. Iraq-has-weapons-of-mass-destruction wouldn't feel uncomfortable.

Where's freedom of speech there? But no one cares cause it is a: 1) small country and 2) US ally...

A classic example; but then again, China is somewhat bigger and thus more worrying.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I do not find it worth much to read the perspective of authoritarian regime like that of China, Human Rights Watch is infinitely more trustworthy in this matter. :juggle2:

I meant considering it from a Chinese point of view, not reading their official government news.


The point was not to end Chinese propaganda, but to put pressure on them regarding the Tibet issue.

I know. I'll change what I said a little if that makes it more acceptable:


At the same time, isn't it a bit hypocritical of us to call for an end to and political motives for the games, and at the same time boycotting them to get a political change?

[Viking]

I meant considering it from a Chinese point of view, not reading their official government news.


Well, what is a Chinese point of view? I assume it is among the population much of the same as what the government want to it be.


I know. I'll change what I said a little if that makes it more acceptable:
At the same time, isn't it a bit hypocritical of us to call for an end to and political motives for the games, and at the same time boycotting them to get a political change?

Well, ok, I'll not defend that stance.

[Pannonian]

I meant considering it from a Chinese point of view, not reading their official government news.

AFAIK, the general Chinese view of goings on in Tibet is that their treatment is no worse than that of Chinese elsewhere. The forced abortions and other genocidal treatment sounds awful, until one realises the same policy applies across China in the form of the one child policy. Indeed, this policy is more relaxed in Tibet and other inland areas, especially if the first child is a girl. Human rights is given scant notice in Tibet, but they're given little notice elsewhere in China too, in the Chinese government's efforts to build a modernised, industrialised nation. The difference is that Han Chinese being oppressed by a Han Chinese government doesn't sound quite as romantic or outrageous, so it gets ignored.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

AFAIK, the general Chinese view of goings on in Tibet is that their treatment is no worse than that of Chinese elsewhere. The forced abortions and other genocidal treatment sounds awful, until one realises the same policy applies across China in the form of the one child policy. Indeed, this policy is more relaxed in Tibet and other inland areas, especially if the first child is a girl. Human rights is given scant notice in Tibet, but they're given little notice elsewhere in China too, in the Chinese government's efforts to build a modernised, industrialised nation. The difference is that Han Chinese being oppressed by a Han Chinese government doesn't sound quite as romantic or outrageous, so it gets ignored.

Indeed. Tibet in itself, IMHO, deserves no special recognition, and certainly not enough for us to boycott the games. After all, they were awarded by an independent commission to the country they found most deserving.

[Furious Mental]

@ That's what countries do everywhere.
__________________

"That's what countries do everywhere"

No it isn't. Most countries do not make people prisoners of conscience in order to have a nice sports event- to claim that they do is just nonsense. That sort of thing is the preserve of authoritarians and/or sycophants. Comparing political oppression to cracking down on organised groups of violent hooligans is completely ridiculous.

"Let's boycott Britain in 2012 over its involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan or something. "

Yet another false comparison. If the British government were hosting the Olympics in order to run a colossal pro-Iraq and Afghanistan wars propaganda campaign it might be valid, but it isn't so it's not. The most you could say is that Brown would like to use it as part of his promotion of "Britishness", which unlike the rabid nationalism taught by the Chinese government is totally innocuous. On top of that, one of the things you will notice about the London Olympics is that no one is being summarily gaoled or deprived of their livelihood in order to hold them. And, to my knowledge, the British government is not supplying weapons to genocidaires. Someone is always going to be able find something about the host country they don't like, but the fact is that this year:
- The host country has by far the most objectionable government, in terms of its domestic conduct, at least since 1988;
- The conduct of the host country domestically has been unusually objectionable this year in particular;
- The host country is extremely irresponsible in aspects of its foreign policy also;
- The way that this host country has "organised" the event itself is also highly objectionable and also symbolic of its behaviour generally;
- The host country, from the outset, has quite openly sought to use the event for political purposes, whilst lambasting any countervailing views as "politicisation".

[Kralizec]

AFAIK, the general Chinese view of goings on in Tibet is that their treatment is no worse than that of Chinese elsewhere. The forced abortions and other genocidal treatment sounds awful, until one realises the same policy applies across China in the form of the one child policy. Indeed, this policy is more relaxed in Tibet and other inland areas, especially if the first child is a girl. Human rights is given scant notice in Tibet, but they're given little notice elsewhere in China too, in the Chinese government's efforts to build a modernised, industrialised nation. The difference is that Han Chinese being oppressed by a Han Chinese government doesn't sound quite as romantic or outrageous, so it gets ignored.

In the Netherlands the discussion and news coverage about the whole region has been about human rights in general at first, only after the protest has the Tibetan plight been at the foreground.

Anyway, people bear opression more easily from their own then they do from foreigners.

It's not as if the Chinese are simply aiming for nominal control of the land. Tibet is being colonised by Han chinese like Stalin did with the Baltic states. The state has taken it on itself to supervise buddhist temples and regulate succession of the Dalai Lama. It's a tradeoff between an increase in overall wealth and slowly dismantling of the traditional culture (or at least insofar it's offensive to chinese bureaucrats) Understandably, not everyone's happy about it.

[Pannonian]

In the Netherlands the discussion and news coverage about the whole region has been about human rights in general at first, only after the protest has the Tibetan plight been at the foreground.

Anyway, people bear opression more easily from their own then they do from foreigners.

It's not as if the Chinese are simply aiming for nominal control of the land. Tibet is being colonised by Han chinese like Stalin did with the Baltic states. The state has taken it on itself to supervise buddhist temples and regulate succession of the Dalai Lama. It's a tradeoff between an increase in overall wealth and slowly dismantling of the traditional culture (or at least insofar it's offensive to chinese bureaucrats) Understandably, not everyone's happy about it.
Surely there are more effective ways of getting the Chinese government to change policy than with those symbolic and useless protests. IMHO these gestures are actually counterproductive, in that they only work to harden the Chinese position, and only serve to make the protestors feel good about themselves. Protests worked against South Africa because the world managed to enact a reasonably blanket coverage of sanctions against them. No-one's going to do that against the Chinese, so if one really wanted change, one would look for more effective methods.

[Kralizec]

More effective ways, like what? Trade embargoes?

I agree that the Olympic games aren't the right time or occassion for political pressure. In practice, it's a lighting rod. After the Olympics Tibet will simply fade from the Free World's collective consciousness again.

I'm not suggesting a solution. Realisticly speaking it's all moot talk since since no government in the world is going to act tough against the Chinese. Decades will pass, generation after generation growing more ignorant of their nation's old culture and eventually the region will be so thoroughly Sinicized that people will use chinese minority rights as an argument against Tibettan sovereignty. It just annoys me when people downplay the significance of all this.

[Pannonian]

More effective ways, like what? Trade embargoes?

I agree that the Olympic games aren't the right time or occassion for political pressure. In practice, it's a lighting rod. After the Olympics Tibet will simply fade from the Free World's collective consciousness again.

I'm not suggesting a solution. Realisticly speaking it's all moot talk since since no government in the world is going to act tough against the Chinese. Decades will pass, generation after generation growing more ignorant of their nation's old culture and eventually the region will be so thoroughly Sinicized that people will use chinese minority rights as an argument against Tibettan sovereignty. It just annoys me when people downplay the significance of all this.
One way to start would be to be less confrontational, but to argue instead for how retaining Tibetan culture can be beneficial to China, in the form of tourism, trade, etc. Reconcile the Tibetan government in exile with the Chinese government so that both sides gain - the Chinese get a puppet government in Tibet, while the current xiles get to defend and preserve their culture more effectively than they do at the moment.

Compared to the aspirations of the protestors, the above is far more modest and realistic, but it'll probably have far more beneficial effects for Tibet than these protests are ever likely to have.

[Sarmatian]

@ That's what countries do everywhere.
__________________

"That's what countries do everywhere"

No it isn't. Most countries do not make people prisoners of conscience in order to have a nice sports event- to claim that they do is just nonsense. That sort of thing is the preserve of authoritarians and/or sycophants. Comparing political oppression to cracking down on organised groups of violent hooligans is completely ridiculous.

"Let's boycott Britain in 2012 over its involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan or something. "

Yet another false comparison. If the British government were hosting the Olympics in order to run a colossal pro-Iraq and Afghanistan wars propaganda campaign it might be valid, but it isn't so it's not. The most you could say is that Brown would like to use it as part of his promotion of "Britishness", which unlike the rabid nationalism taught by the Chinese government is totally innocuous. On top of that, one of the things you will notice about the London Olympics is that no one is being summarily gaoled or deprived of their livelihood in order to hold them. And, to my knowledge, the British government is not supplying weapons to genocidaires. Someone is always going to be able find something about the host country they don't like, but the fact is that this year:
- The host country has by far the most objectionable government, in terms of its domestic conduct, at least since 1988;
- The conduct of the host country domestically has been unusually objectionable this year in particular;
- The host country is extremely irresponsible in aspects of its foreign policy also;
- The way that this host country has "organised" the event itself is also highly objectionable and also symbolic of its behaviour generally;
- The host country, from the outset, has quite openly sought to use the event for political purposes, whilst lambasting any countervailing views as "politicisation".

C'mon, Chinese are inexperienced amateurs compared to US. What Bush did to winter olympics in Salt Lake City? He used it to further his "war on terror".
I don't remember hearing any calls for boycott because of that. They put the flag of the WTC there even though tradition states that only flags of participating countries are allowed.

I'm not really saying that Chinese are the good guys in all this, but wondering are we supposed to be against that stuff based on principles or just because China is doing it in this particular case?

[Geoffrey S]

Yet another false comparison. If the British government were hosting the Olympics in order to run a colossal pro-Iraq and Afghanistan wars propaganda campaign it might be valid, but it isn't so it's not. The most you could say is that Brown would like to use it as part of his promotion of "Britishness", which unlike the rabid nationalism taught by the Chinese government is totally innocuous. On top of that, one of the things you will notice about the London Olympics is that no one is being summarily gaoled or deprived of their livelihood in order to hold them. And, to my knowledge, the British government is not supplying weapons to genocidaires.
Look, my only point is that any action against the Beijing Olympics on political grounds is going to come back and bite the UK. No, I don't think the two states are comparable - yet that hasn't stopped certain people taking such comparisons depressingly far, and my statement was the hypothetical cry you'd be hearing from a surprisingly large part of the world.

The time for complaints about the choice for China was a long time ago, and it has been blatantly obvious for even longer that it flaunts human rights. Why is that an issue now? Why does it take the relative non-issue of Tibet to bring it to the campaigning front? It would imply that for the majority of people protesting the Olympics' location human rights is not the primary issue, or we'd have seen significantly more uproar earlier. What then, are the motivations?

- The host country, from the outset, has quite openly sought to use the event for political purposes, whilst lambasting any countervailing views as "politicisation".
I agree with that one, without reserve - yet as has been pointed out, this is of all times and many nations. Still, the hypocrisy in all those cases annoys me immensely.

[Furious Mental]

"this is of all times and many nations"

But is it comparatively rare for a country practising that sort of hypocrisy and human rights abuse on such a scale to host the Olympics. As I said before, the last time it even came close was 20 years ago AND that was at a time when democracy and human rights generally were less respected worldwide than they are now. And on top of that the government in charge of them ended up being undone anyway- the regime was teetering and having all eyes on the country actually helped push it over the edge.

"What Bush did to winter olympics in Salt Lake City? He used it to further his "war on terror".
I don't remember hearing any calls for boycott because of that. They put the flag of the WTC there even though tradition states that only flags of participating countries are allowed."

In my opinion Bush is a complete twat, but frankly I would say that is another false comparison because:
1. The US government did not seek to have an American city host the Winter Olympics for the blatantly political purpose of promoting itself as a great power and for nationalist propaganda domestically.
2. The US government has done and may do many objectionable things depending on your point of view (I would certainly say it does) but it isn't a one party state, it doesn't abuse its own population in the same way that China's government does, and it isn't presently facilitating genocide, to my knowledge at least.
3. The flag of the WTC has memorial rather than simply political significance.
4. Putting up or taking a flag of the WTC is of no practical relevance to anyone except Americans, who evidently feel good waving it around, so I don't particularly care. By contrast the line which the Chinese government is running about keeping the Olympics "apolitical" is the same line which it runs on its relation with some of the worst regimes in the world, so it heartily deserves to be clearly rebutted.

In addition, the other hand if the intention of a boycott would have been in relation to, say, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't see that it could have made any difference given that Afghanistan had been invaded and that the Bush maladministration was determined to invade Iraq in spite of the damage which it was known it would do to relations with many countries.

By contrast we actually know that China does care about not being stood up at these Games and in fact has put behind the scenes pressure on both Sudan and Burma to curtail their state terrorism precisely because it is an embarrassment. However, the generally weak criticism of China's notorious relations with these countries means that it doesn't see it as worthwhile extending this pressure to anything of practical import, such as ending or delaying commercial relations, impounding foreign aid, or, most importantly, ceasing weapons exports (and as I have noted elsewhere although the vast majority of the Sudanese army's material is in terms of monetary value sourced from countries other than China, the best estimates are that in quantitative terms 90% of the small arms exported to Sudan and which end up in the hands of the Janjaweed are Chinese made), much less extending this pressure to other countries that are close to China and to Sudan and Burma and also supply the latter two with arms (e.g. Iran, North Korea).

[Adrian II]

The time for complaints about the choice for China was a long time ago, and it has been blatantly obvious for even longer that it flaunts human rights. Why is that an issue now?¨The time for protests is right now because China is exploiting the Games right now. The idiot Brown even allowed them to ´hijack´ the Olympic flame (as one British commentator has said) and parade it through the London streets and in front of Downing Street 10 under Chinese supervision, with stupid Coca Cola and Samsung pom-pom girls out front, followed by a bunch of gross Chinese officials who were shouting orders at the athletes, for Pete's sake. Thank God the French decided to douse the silly thing and whisk the buggers away in a police van. What a disgusting display of western moneygrabbers and Chinese chauvinists this was. Yuk.

[Papewaio]

Olympics is not about sport its about selling advertising.

The athletes are just there for entertainment and hold your attention while they wear corporate sponsored costumes, run past corporate logos, eat corporate sponsored foods, and in between you get a break from the events and watch corporate tv ads.

The only corporations that don't get heavily mentioned are the ones the athletes are pumping into their veins. Gawd knows why considering the Pharmaceutical companies must want a slice of the action too.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

A sign from an anti-China protest:

https://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3717/2403957312247d108ea9nx5.jpg


:laugh4:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

A sign from an anti-China protest:

https://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3717/2403957312247d108ea9nx5.jpg


:laugh4:

I believe the proper answer to this is:

"Yes."

EMFM I agree, people are stupid.

[Furious Mental]

And how does the world feel about having made that mistake?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Went to a international center panel today on the China-Tibet relationship.
3 people, one American, two ethnic Han born in China.

The Chinese had made up a 'fact sheet' they handed out to listeners. Included fun things, like how Tibet was 'liberated' from Britain, how 90% of them were slaves when China invaded, how the title of Dalai Lama was first given by the Chinese emperor, how western media is biased, and how it doesn't give the real opinions of Tibetans, which they know better than us because the Chinese media shows Tibetans saying they are happy with China.

Interesting perspective.

CR

[Pannonian]

Went to a international center panel today on the China-Tibet relationship.
3 people, one American, two ethnic Han born in China.

The Chinese had made up a 'fact sheet' they handed out to listeners. Included fun things, like how Tibet was 'liberated' from Britain, how 90% of them were slaves when China invaded, how the title of Dalai Lama was first given by the Chinese emperor, how western media is biased, and how it doesn't give the real opinions of Tibetans, which they know better than us because the Chinese media shows Tibetans saying they are happy with China.

Interesting perspective.

CR
What do you expect from twits? The main fact of the matter is that Tibet was part of Qing China at its close, not having been relinquished by right of war or treaty, and the two states that succeeded it, the Republic of China (ROC) and the People's Republic of China (PRC) both claimed it as part of China. The ROC was never strong enough to enforce this claim before they were evicted from the mainland and into Taiwan, but the PRC were. Tibet is as Chinese as Hong Kong was British until 1997, for they're both part of the claims and obligations of Qing China, handed down to its successor states.

[Ronin]

A sign from an anti-China protest:

https://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3717/2403957312247d108ea9nx5.jpg


:laugh4:

epic failure :laugh4:

[Marius Dynamite]

I don't like the way China looks right now. It's growing in power and looks very dangerous. I can see another Cold War but this time the U.S. is outnumbered and outgunned.