What are you all talking about??

[Deamoclese]

Everyone complains/talks about how the dumb AI always 'dances' infront of their line of archers/longbow/arbalests while you indiscriminately mop the floor with them.

I have NEVER seen this happen once in the hundreds of single player campaign battles I've played. My current campaign, using my main army of 8 units of pavise Arbs, 7 CMAA, and the king, has very different results.

I line my arbs up into a long thin line infront of the enemy (2 men deep only as none of the arbs behind the 2 front rows ever fire.. I guess the other arbs in front are blocking their shot??) and infantry lined up behind them.

I order my men to fire at the massive enemy army, killing dozens in 1 salvo. But the second that happen, all hell breaks loose. They ALWAYS charge hard and fast at my arbs down the 2 end points of the arb line (seldom down the middle).

It always forces me to scramble and get my men to charge before they hit my arbs.. after that my arbs are useless since they lose unit cohesion and only around 20 out of the 480 will shoot after that (liek I said, it seems none of the arbs behind the 2 front rows EVER fire) I have to form them back into a thin line after they ran from the charge and that takes ages for a massive horde of 'em.

Anyway, I have never seen this nonsense about the enemy dancing infront of arbs.. not once.

I am playing on Hard difficulty...

Oh yeah.. anyone know why arbs behind the 2 front rows don't fire? Archers do.

[Wart]

Arbs are direct fire, archers indirect. Curiously though IIRC the preferred no. of rows for an arb unit is 3, so don't know whats happening there! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

[This message has been edited by Wart (edited 10-10-2002).]

[Sjakihata]

The prefered # of 3 rows, is because it gives a more constant fire, while the first row fire the 3rd reload and the 2nd making ready etc, and thus it is more demoralizing to the reciever i.e. enemy http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Sjakihata Akechi (edited 10-10-2002).]

[Wart]

Makes sense! wondered if it was something like that. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Soapyfrog]

I have had the enemy dancing in front of my line all the time, and I play on expert.

It seems to confuse them if you but your arbs in hold formation in front of your melee troops.

Sometimes they come VERY close to my arbs but they fail to engage, often walking back and forth across my front until most are dead.

IF one of their units manages to engage melee (or you attack) this seems to trigger a reponse... the enemy will charge your line. I find the AI is most successful at this when they send fast units to aggressively flank.

Certain AI are better than others... I do get occasional battles where the enemy charges immediately, usually Almohad armies are good at this.

Maybe the "dancing" and "dithering" is the result of the enemy being TOO clever and trying to seek out flanks that are too well protected?

Anyway, it definitely happens. I have replays that show it quite clearly.

[maroule]

Quote Originally posted by Deamoclese:
Everyone complains/talks about how the dumb AI always 'dances' infront of their line of archers/longbow/arbalests while you indiscriminately mop the floor with them.

I have NEVER seen this happen once in the hundreds of single player campaign battles I've played. My current campaign, using my main army of 8 units of pavise Arbs, 7 CMAA, and the king, has very different results.

I line my arbs up into a long thin line infront of the enemy (2 men deep only as none of the arbs behind the 2 front rows ever fire.. I guess the other arbs in front are blocking their shot??) and infantry lined up behind them.

.[/QUOTE]

Lucky you, because it happens at least 50% of the times I play defensive, and most of my battles are defensive. I play only on expert.

I defend on hills, with spears in front, one line of arb. behind (never less than 4 units of them). I don't get friendly shots (elevation maybe). The AI charges, my catapult or my arb kill their general, and they hardly make contact with my spears. I have many of these battles with no hand to hand contact whatsoever (just exchanges of volley, but I am always stronger there, arbs are MUCH better than horse archers the AI field very often). When there is contact, it's only on one section on my horse shoe shaped defensive line, never a general rush, and it's fairly easy to repell.

I have replay too if anybody care.



[This message has been edited by maroule (edited 10-10-2002).]

[Pellinor]

I too tend to have a line of spears in front. I

get the impression that the AI wants to close in, but when it gets close it realises that tackling formed spears up a hill is a bad idea so it backs off. It doesn't want to retreat, however, so it comes forward again until the spears are too threatening. This is, IMO, what leads to the milling around - when far away it is attracted by the desire to attack, when close to it is repelled by the spears. It occasionally reaches an equilibrium between the two.

If I keep the spears quite a way behind my missles the AI is much keener to come forward to attack them - until the spears move forward a bit.

[maroule]

sounds like a reasonnable explanation, pellinor, and would explain the difference between deamoclese and others. Put your spears in front, man!

[Deamoclese]

Ah, I seldom do hill fighting, so it seems to happen most on hills? Well this never will work for me since 90% of all combat I am in is me attacking, not on the defensive.. so I am forced to move to the enemy.. they NEVER come to me first when I attack.. they run to a corner and stand there till I attack.

The only time they will come to me when I attack is if they outnumber me by more than 2:1.

How exactly do any of you even use catapults in the field? I've put 4 in with my army, and with my general they have 3 valor... they have never killed more than 10-15 men in a single battle involving over 1000 men. I fire at a huge swarm of them that are STANDING STILL... yet 99% of the shots hit nothing and they are all bunched together.. if it were archer/arb fire, I;d have killed around 100 in a single shot if I had 6 arb units.

[Spino]

Quote I have had the enemy dancing in front of my line all the time, and I play on expert.
It seems to confuse them if you but your arbs in hold formation in front of your melee troops.

Sometimes they come VERY close to my arbs but they fail to engage, often walking back and forth across my front until most are dead.

IF one of their units manages to engage melee (or you attack) this seems to trigger a reponse... the enemy will charge your line. I find the AI is most successful at this when they send fast units to aggressively flank.[/QUOTE]

This is a MAJOR issue for me as I usually rely heavily on spear and sword units to form my front lines (with ranks of missile units in front or behind). The AI seems to balk at the prospect of engaging a well ordered line head on so it marches and countermarches to no effect. There are so many battles I've fought where I was outnumbered and should have been routed but wound up winning because the AI refused to initiate a full on attack of my line. This can really take much of the fun out of battles.

I also cannot tell you how many times the AI has attacked me when it is outnumbered and I am the attacker! It sould be sitting on good ground, licking its chops in anticipation of watching its missile troops have a field day while I close the distance, not abandoning its position for a suicide run!

[Grifman]

As others have hinted, I think you would get a different result if you placed your infantry in front of your archers.

Grifman

[deejayvee]

I was looking forward to epic battles between my billmen and longbowmen and the Golden Horde. So I camped up on the hill and routed 2500 men on two occasions both times with no to little hand to hand combat. The longbowmen were firing into the heavy cav killing plenty each time and the heavy cav couldn't charge up hill into my billmen so he just kept dancing about until he ran away. So much for my plans on seeing the 2 great archer nations going at it.

[andrewt]

You don't need to. I use Murabitin Infantry as Almohad and I could finish their ammo quite easily even with their range. Having AUM and Muwahid beside or immediately behind them has the same effect. The AI wants to attack them, sees the other soldiers behind and balks.