Naginata

[Cicero]

Hello everyone.

I want to canvas some opinion about the best ways to use Naginata. The tin can boys are just too slow to be truly useful in my experience, even in defence i feel tied down by them and htey make the army heavy to wield. Anyone got any good ways of getting them to do their thing and not just be costly pin cushions, I can use Yari sam for that. Do you use them for killing or for dying? I always got the impression that you could use them to good end even in attack if you knew how, but I don't

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Keep it simple: as simple as possible, but no simpler

[BanzaiZAP]

I kinda like these guys, but I usually can't afford them until later in a campaign game. From my understanding, people tend to think they're too expensive in a MP battle.

But anyway, these guys are the ultimate doorstop. They defend well against any unit type, and they can take a lot of punishment. Yari Samurai are similar, but YS get chopped up pretty badly by no-dachi and monks, but naginata are tougher. They are ideal for holding one end of a bridge, or the gate of a castle.

They are kinda slow for most people to attack with. You can't be in a hurry, and you need to have the timer turned off. If you can get them into position, they are great for a slow push on the enemy. I've had one unit of Nagi's set to Hold Formation, then told to take a leisurely stroll behind enemy lines. Even when they hit the enemy lines, they kept pushing forward! This tactic seriously confuses the enemy formations, and your nagi's will usually survive long enough for your flankers to move in. Naginata/No-Dachi combos are nasty and effective.

Their armor is tough enough that you won't lose as many men when they're on arrow-catching duty. This is especially important in the bridge scenarios. In fact, that's my usual use for Nagi's - build them, then send them to hold critical brige provinces. They really are too slow and easily tired, and expensive to take on assault runs.

Another nice bonus that most people forget in the campaign game - you can only get them in provinces with a second-level yari dojo, and an armory. This means that the naginatas START OFF with an armor bonus automatically! I don't remember if they get the honor bonus from the dojo as well. MP battles don't get that automatic advantage.

-- B)

[The Bear]

They do not get the honor bonus. I do sometimes use them in an offensive manner with the timer on (single player). Never in winter, never with an AI army heavy on cavalry. With an AI army composed mainly of foot soldiers, i find that they can be usefull to pin down the AI army while i flank and rain arrows (not on fire at will) on the most precious units. Just send them smack in the middle of the AI army, they will get ALL the attention from the archers and any AI unit near them, thus pinning down most of the AI army.

[borisus]

I just love heavy inf,in my opinion they are stronger then WM!
but the only thing i use them for is the bridge defence,they cost to much,and to slow to fit in my army.
you can use them in a defence,they will stop anyone!

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"A WISE MAN ONCE SAID,LETS KICK THAIR ASS!"

[theforce]

If you feel them a bit slow get high honor YS http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://darksideclan.fateback.com
Enter the Darkside...

[ElmarkOFear]

cicero, somebody who knows how to use them to great effect is ShingenMitch2 in the multiplayer lobby. If you see him ask him how he uses them. I am sure he will help you out. Good luck, Elmarkofear

[This message has been edited by ElmarkOFear (edited 04-28-2001).]

[borisus]

Thats what i do.

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"A WISE MAN ONCE SAID,LETS KICK THAIR ASS!"

[Tachikaze]

I find naginatas most effective in a psychological role. When my opponent uses them, I think twice before charging into his army with no-dachi and yari samurai. I'm not clear exactly how strong nags are, but they can have a significant influence on my tactics.

[CaPeFeAr]

BAH!!! nags are worthless.....in campain they have a use but dont bring them to multiplay!!! 1 exeption....units fighting uphill tire very quickly so if u have a giant hill to camp then meet the attacker with a few units of nags while you keep your army in reserve. pound the skirmish with missles and then send in the main force the enemy will be out of formation and tired from fighting the nags.

[theforce]

lol!
Naginata are useful man. They are cool if defending and have a good high advantage and they are best to defend in woods. Also shook troops don't have such a resault.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://darksideclan.fateback.com
Enter the Darkside...

[Kikujiro]

right on regarding the psychological role Naggies play.

Myself and Kagetora tested naggies against monks.. and the monks won clearly. i tested various formations against his four deep monks, and every time the monks won.

nodachis and other troops have less effect on the nag, but monks and the occasional flanking heavy cav can wreak all manner of arsey goings on.

theyre also a lot less resistant to ranged fire than i expected.

is it me or were they tougher before 1.12?

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Kikujiro's Shoggie Dojo (http://www.geocities.com/inoue2uk)

[Tenchimuyo]

Weak after 1.12? nonsense! They are still one of my favorites! And I find them work pretty well against monks! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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A great warrior rarely reveal his true skills....

[BanzaiZAP]

One Monk unit costs about the same as one naginata plus one yari. Monks hit nagi's and are held still for one minute. Yari hits monks from behind. Exit monks. Note that this really only works on defense.

-- B)

[smoothdragon]

If you need two units to pin down one warrior monk unit, that is a disadvantage already. Naginata is not a mobile unit, and thus it is a burden to bring on campaigns. It loses its advantages rather quickly as well, since the unit gets tired fast and thus is subject to morale/defense/attack negatives that comes with each successive exhaustion levels.

[theforce]

I could say the same ZAP for 1 monk and 5 Ashigaru units but in multiplayer the enemy has the 16 unit army as you do so he might have the same amount of melle as you do so naginata are used to hold multiple monk units for others to flank.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://darksideclan.fateback.com
Enter the Darkside...

[MajorFreak]

there is one point i think alot of us take for granted...Naginatas are the most powerful "strategic" unit you have (the only drawback is the lack of honor and difficulty increasing that base honor)

Everyone's got the best offense and the best defense...if the enemy used some naginatas would it be a significant monkey wrench? (p.s. I'm not interested in "i can beat anything" remarks. thanks, but no thanks. i'm speaking relatively here.)

[smoothdragon]

But since Naginata is a heavy unit with low base honor that is difficult to raise, the unit is more likely to become tired (and be subjected to attack/defense penalties) and thus become more likely to rout during a battle. The Naginatas only have a tiny window of time where it can fight at its full potential, since it becomes tired very easily and thus loses a portion of its defense bonus that it has. Better to use Yari Samauri, who doesn't get tired as fast, is cheaper, and has very decent defense.

[borisus]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

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"A WISE MAN ONCE SAID,LETS KICK THAIR ASS!"

[This message has been edited by borisus (edited 05-02-2001).]

[shingenmitch2]

Ah, Elms you are too kind.

My Nags only fight good cause they are too slow to run away...hehe

[The Bear]

Honour is crucial for units as nags and heavy cav. Once you get nags with some honour and a legendary armor, they really can pin down and AI army (consisting mostly of foot soldiers) giving you a window of opportunity for flanking , charging etc...

Notice the huge difference against missile fire also with the legendary armor.

[EricNoFear]

its good to have nag as your general, since if you have to send him into battle then he can hold his own if he is ambushed, i remember a battle where i was out numbered and sent my gen in and he was nag, he had YS in front and WM attacking from behind, they held out for ages while my other troops routed the enemy and got to my genwhile he still had 1/2 his soldiers

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Eric Yamato, honoured warrior of clan no fear

[celtiberoijontychi]

I once made some testing with naginata, monks and no dachi, all from honor 0 to 8.

Results: with equal honor, monks win always, no matter what formations u use
nag needs +2 honor to win over monks
nag always beat similar honor no dachi

then i tested their morale.

i had one h4 nagi alone in the field, with a 500 men army in front of them and 3 musks shooting. They were routed only after 2/3 of them were dead.

In almost all fights, they would only rout after losing 1/2 of men

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Long live Celtiberos
Glory and Honour to Clan Celtiberos

[The Bear]

Thank you for your testing celtiberoijontychi. It confirms, that within certain limits you can use nags offensively to pin down an AI army. Outnumbered, under missile fire, they will attrack nearly all the attention liberating the movement of your other units. The Daimyio has also this effect.

[smoothdragon]

You should have done a test where the naginatas had to engage the enemy again in another battle. Since the AI may run away and rally, it is only realistic to test how nags will perform when pressed into combat again. I predict they will perform very poor since they tire quickly and thus have less attack/defense. Nags are only useful for the initial melee, and they are not useful for chasing down the enemy or engaging it again once it had rallied itself.

Yari Samauri, on the other hand, are armored and light and can chase down the enemy and engage it if it chose to rally itself. YS will be less tired than the Nags would be.

[celtiberoijontychi]

i agree smoothdragon, u can't base ur tactics on naginata.
once the enemy runs, u need to have cav, no dachis, monks or at least ashigaru to follow them. The idea is that the enemy should not be allowed to rally at all!

In attack, Naginata are useful only in a very well balanced army
In defence u may take more of them, but u still need mobile forces to flank and pursue routed units

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Long live Celtiberos
Glory and Honour to Clan Celtiberos

[maroberts]

Naginata make good pincushions!!
As a screen (loose formation) in front of your force they are great for AI archers to pound upon whilst you put some directed fire into the heart of his army.

I don't think you want too many Naginata; as you've said they are slow and tire easily, but a couple of units to absorb archery/initial damage are great.

Place Naginata on a bridge with some archers/ muskets either side and noone gets across without a world of pain. Monks can take on and win against NG, but the missiles make sure there aren't enough of them to do it. Also the small front on a bridge reduces the hand to hand attrition rate, so they are good for playing for time if you are holding out on a timed bridge assaults

You need other troops once you've got the enemy stalled/ on the run; but when you have to stop someone, a Naginata is your man.

[Catiline]

I chased an army of ND and YC off the field with exhausted Yari Sam yesterday, if the army want's to flee they will, the speed of their pursuers won't stop them. As it haapens I had been thoroughly beaten in the main battle, my ally aswell, having come down of a hill so as not to camp I got thrashed an Ashi rush, but the monks and ND got me, but some how my h4 YS and a couple of h2 archers rallied on a small hill. Thus about 50 YS and 30 SA faced what was effectively a complete 5000 point army when the enemies allies were combined. However, they were laregly muskets in the rain, ND and importantly both had YC cav generals, plus some relatively complete YS units. Needles to say my little hill wasn't much defence so Itried to pull up further to facilitate a last stand. In come one lot of ND and the YS, but they get held up by my YS who having run once seemed determined to redeem their honour, evidently my oponent got bored. In come the YC general. Dead. The next general then thinks he'll try the same trick. Dead. all of a sudden my exhausted units are chasing waht ammount to an enitire army across the field. The muskets that weren't involved just marched along behind me, why don't they attack my rwar i think, I have to pursue or the army will rally, and it won't work again now that I'm off my hill. Eventually all that's left on the field is the muskets and me, I form up on the hill to face a 2 unit musket charge I know my boys can beat, and


dropping player in 10, 9, ...


Arrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Incidentally, whilst the Nags I took held for a long time, eventually they broke, the YS I took for about the same cost after honour had been ramped up died to a man and took a lot more heads, Just ot keep this on Topic http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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It's not a bug, it's a feature

[lei]

LOL Catiline-san
it's true that nagis don't have the most threatening battle presence, neither do they fight as well as other units, but there is at least one thing that over-powers even that of the monks. dropping.... urgh

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TIGER LILY!!!
check it out for yourself at: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tom.surman/frames.html

[Catiline]

Just checked the logfiles, it seems I was awarded a victory, but that might just be because everyone dropped and i was the defendeder

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It's not a bug, it's a feature

[maroberts]

You can chase units off the field with slow troops, but the aim is to cause casualties to the fleeing army as it routs, for which faster troops are the answer.

A cheap way to chase is with Ashigaru (see they are good for something!_, but if you can afford YC then get it.

[Catiline]

Not for MP battles, then you just need to get units off the field to stop them reforming, causing casualties doesn't help muc, except if they reform, in which case the pursuers haven't done their job properly anyhow.

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It's not a bug, it's a feature

[Brown Wolf]

The nagintana are one of my favorite troops. They can defeat the Yari samurai fairly well.

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"Failure is not an option"

[Kraellin]

there is one more use for nags that i didnt see posted here. in multi you sometimes have to help an ally, while still holding off an enemy that is coming at you. the nags are ideal for this. they may not win against the overwhelming odds, but you can sacrifice them to slow down an enemy while you attack something else.

K.

[Dunhill]

I've had some good use of naginata for depleting archers of their limited supply of arrows. I put them in loose formation and marched them up to watch the arrows fly. they caught on soon enough but it did take some sting out of them.

Defenders were on the huge hill behind a bridge, the one with the massive cliff. Atatcking here was always going to be difficult, but we were getting the job done for a while.

I don't think I will complain about campers anymore, as it is fun to try and dislodge a well defended hill.

This doesn't work so well with guns though, too much ammo.

[KenchiKnite]

If I can remember back, they were useful for helping you hold an enemy for a flank, thats all I remember they were good for, and they were useful against protecting your general, well that never applied to me because my general was always high honour!

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Within a handful of ashes lies the birth of a new age, with the traditions of GOLDEN AGE, Honour to Clan Kenchikuka!

[Krasturak]

Krasturak is always happy to see enemy Nagis in multiplayer games.

The lack of mobility in these units makes them so easy to beat ... they can be ignored most of the time.

And if they do manage to catch up to the fight, they are usually vey tired already ... did any of these 'tests' take fatigue into account?