Materia Celtica

[Elmetiacos]

1 - Personal Names for Britons and Goidels

I don't really understand exactly how the names file works, but I can see it contains some odd things, mainly left over from vanilla RTW. Modern Welsh is mixed up with Latin (in one or two cases the same name appears in Welsh and Latin forms) and some incorrect material was added.

Here are some attested names of Britons, some "re-Celticised" from Latin:
Male: Addedomaros Antedios Caratacos Cingetorixs Cogidubnos Cunobelinos Cunomoltos Diras Dumnoceveros Epaticcu Epillos Esuprastos Iovir Lugotorixs Tincomarus Vellocatus Volisios Vosenios

and here are some more from coins where the name was abbreviated. In two cases it's obvious what the full name was, in others they're educated guesses:
Bodvocavaros Cartivellaunos Coriovanos Dumnovellaunos

Heree are names I made up out of known Celtic elements. I noted a tendency (only a tendency, not a hard and fast rule) in giving men names to do with people, animals and physical attributes ("Warrior King", "Hound of Battle", "Girth like Esus") whereas in women names to do with locations and ideas ("Victory", "White Path") I've reflected this (possible) tendency in the elements I've chosen.
Male: Boudisser Catacodantos Catugratios Corcagnos Cumovallos Cunogustus Cunomaros Domacos Dornoduros Ennatomaros Glunomaros Hariovellaunos Inogustus Lugetios Orbogarios Orbogenos Ordovallos Penaxtovaros Rocrimoteros Rounos Senacos Slougorixs Tardovicos Teytorixs Teytovallos Tigernacos Ulcagnos Vidogidas Vodvodanos

Female (only 3 or 4 are atttested): Aiduabu Boudicca Boudivena Brigantognatis Brivobriga Cartimandu Casnavinda Catubrana Cistuvinda Coriocruta Cunoarda Dervagnata Dinudragina Hedennoprista Lavenia Leyca Lugra Matumerca Romelisti Salia Saliariganis Samoriganis Senovara Sitostarna Fravoduba Teytariganis Verctissa Vicopillima Vindosibra

Now surnames - what we have from inscriptions suggests that Britons used two surnames; a patronymic and a tribal name, so if you were Vosenios from the Iceni and your father was Epillos, your full name would be *Vosenios Epilli Icenos. Recycling some names with the genitive case and adding a tribe, we could have: Addedomari Cassos; Antedioi Cantiacos; Carataci Cassos;
Cingetorigos Demeti; Cogidubni Cassos; Cunobelini Trinovants; Dirâs Cassos; Dumnoceveri Brigants; Epaticcous Cassos; Epilli Cornovios; Esuprasti Cassos; Ioveros Silur; Lugotorigos Cassos; Tincomarous Icenos; Vellocati Cassos; Volisioi Parisos; Vosenioi Cassos

I've assumed half the names will belong to the Casse/Cassi, the rest to other tribes.

That's all for the Britons. Liberties I've taken - I've assumed the proto-Celtic *&#216;- was still pronounced as /h/ in Brythonic and Irish. Carlos Jordan Colera notes that PIE *eu eventually became u in Brythonic, so I've assumed fronting happened before levelling and changed Gaulish ou < *eu into ey, with the Y meant to represent an &#252; sound. I've also speculated that -ntes tribal names were dental stems.

Here are some early Irish names; a mixture of names from the Ogham inscriptions and reconstructed forms of modern Irish names - all male, I don't think we need Eleutheroi females(?) : Actos Alattos Breswalas Brocagnas Ceranas Cunacamas Cunalegas Dumnowalas Glannanas Glasicu Irccitos Ivagenos Lugnas Lugudeccs Neitslas Qasignias Tigernacas Uorgos
(in there are the ancient forms of the Irish names Breasal, Brocc&#225;n, Domhnal, Eoghan, Niall and Tighearn&#225;n)

On the Ogham inscriptions, second names are simple patronymics or else in the form MAQI MUCOI (of the son of the tribe of...) hence: Maqas Breswali; Maqas Cerani; Maqas Cunalegi; Maqas Dumnowali; Maqas Glasiconi; Maqas Ivageni; Maqas Lugni; Maqas Mucoi Ebdana; Maqas Mucoi Gangana; Maqas Mucoi Iwerna; Maqas Mucoi Robogda; Maqas Mucoi Wolunta; Maqas Qasigni; Maqas Tigernaci

There's no Q or W in Irish now, of course, but Q is the value of an Ogham letter and it's generally acknowledged that W became F in the 7th Century.
Caveat - even the Ogham inscriptions are 500 years after the EB timeline.

Some useful web sources
A list of Celtic roots here: www.wales.ac.uk/documents/external/cawcs/MoE-PCl.pdf
A list of Romano-British names here: http://www.asnc.cam.ac.uk/personalnames/
Gaulish & Brythonic names analysed here (in French): http://www.arbre-celtique.com/encyclopedie/personnages-celtiques-3630.htm

Next I'll focus on Gaulish and Celtiberian names. It gets a bit complicated...

EDIT: I've mistakenly put a couple of Irish names in the genitive.

[Elmetiacos]

Actually, should I move this to the "EB Unofficial Mods" sub-forum?
And spot my mistake in the Irish names...

[blitzkrieg80]

This looks like a good start and something useful ~:thumb:

I must warn you that I have not changed Germanic character names, even when innacurate, because the scripts and desc_strat refer to them and can screw up- so keep this in mind... traits are another story, since they have a text file in the data/text which uses internal names separately... similarly the other text files can be editted.

[Elmetiacos]

2 - Personal Names for Gauls & Celtiberians

This post deals with Gaulish and Celtiberian personal names. There are lots of Gaulish names written down, so there's no need to resort to inventing any from hypothetical Celtic roots. Once again L'Arbre Celtique is a good online source.

Gaulish (male) names taken from coins:
Abucatos Acutios Alaucos Annicoios Atectorixs Cantorixs Casios Cattos Cisiambos Contoutos Diasulos Ducomaros Durnacos Elcesovixs Epênos Exobnos Maupennos Orcetirixs Togirixs Turonos

More coin names, but these are from Pannonia. I know EB has this region as Celtic, but I don't know whether it's been given its own language. If not, these names can be mixed up with the main (French) Gaulish ones - or used for Galatians? :
Adnamatos Ainorixs Biatecus Bussumarus Cobisovomarus Cobrovomarus Coviomarus Iantomarus

More Gaulish names from other inscriptions (a few may be "Lepontic") I've tried to avoid ones from Latin inscriptions, lest they be too Romanised.
Male:
Adgennorixs Aððedilos Aicuvindos Acisios Alcuinios Anarevisios Andecamulos Aneunos Andocombogios Aricanos Attaiorixs Belgos Bellatorixs Blandovicu Boios Bonnorixs Bratronos Bristas Caliodubnos Camulogenos Cassitalos Catumocus Circos Comios Corisios Cunorixs Dagorixs Dobnoredos Doiros Drutos Dumnomotos Eluscu Escanecotos Escengolatos Esopnos Giapos Iccavos Illanuios Ioincorixs Ivorixs Labrios Latumaros Litumaros Maclonos Magalos Magiorixs Missucos Mogunos Nantonios Oclos Ogrigenos Onnos Orgetorixs Otiorixs Rextugenos Rianorixs Ritacos Samognatios Samoricos Saunos Sedagisamos Segomaros Sentubogios Silus Sintorixs Sosimilos Tancorixs Tanotalos Tabetiscos Tascos Tincorixs Tôtanorixs Tôtissos Vlidorixs Varsileos Vebrumaros Versuos Veretomaros Versios Vindios Vonatorixs Vrittacos

These three are Pannoian, as above -
Adginnos Andebrocirixs Eliomarus

Female:
Abdugisse Adiega Aia Aleastumara Argentâ Asmina Atebodua Bennuca Bodiaca Camulognata Cintugena Congonna Derceia Devognata Divogna Eppa Escinga Iantuna Magana Matugena Nemetogena Nitiogena Oxidubna Ritumara Roveta Sapsuta Suadilia Suadugena Tincomara Venimara Vixuvionna Vlatucia

Gaulish surnames are complicated. They are patronymics, but it's not as simple as just taking the genitive case of the father's name. There are 8 patronymic suffixes; -ios, -iai, -iacos, -icnos, -icna, -eos, -ia and -ea. But nowhere can I find exactly how you match each one to a given name. I had a transcript of Karin Stüber's presentation Effects of Language Contact on Roman & Gaulish Personal Names for the 13th ICCS and now it seems to have vanished from the Web... Bah. They seem to be masculine and feminine but RTW women don't get surnames, so this leaves us -ios, -iacos, -icnos, -eos. The only thing I can do is assign -ios to -os endings, -iacos to -ios endings, -icnos to -ixs endings and -eos to any others. I bet this isn't what the Gauls did at all, but I'm at a loss. This gives us the following as Gaulish surnames:
Adgennoricnos Aicuvindios Alcuiniacos Andecamulios Aricanios Attaioricnos Belgios Blandoviceos Boiacos Bratronios Bristeos Camulogenios Cassitalios Circios Comiacos Cunoricnos Dobnoredios Drutios Elusceos Escanecotios Esopnios Giapios Iccavios Ivoricnos Latumarios Maclonios Magioricnos Mogunios Oclios Onnios Otioricnos Rianoricnos Samognatiacos Saunios Segomarios Sileos Sosimilios Tanotalios Tascios Totanoricnos Vebrumarios Versiacos Vindiacos Vrittacios

Now onto the Celtiberians. Fortunately, this lot are Eleutheroi and so don't need many names. Carlos Jordan Colera's Celtiberian grammar is a must-have and should be downloadable from E-Keltoi. It is a really good summary of what's known so far, written only last year. Warning - this is a really technical
paper for linguists (or at least language nerds like me...)
Names: Bistiros Buntalos Guandos Irorekios Kambarinos Kilikos Letuikos Lubos Monitukos Namaios Nertobriks Rektugenos Sekilakos Tritanos Tullos

Surnames seem to be related to tribes or towns, although patronymics sometimes appear as well:
Abulokum Alizokum Atulikum Buntunes Lastiko Letontunos Obios Sekilakos Setantunos Veniakum Visalikum

Rektugenos - almost the same as the Gaulish name, above...
Setantunos - if this is a name, adherents of a particular theory of Irish history will love it.

Lots of Celtiberian inscriptions seem to be love tokens, so we probably have more female than male names recorded. Which is no good to EB.

[blitzkrieg80]

[sttupid me] bleh

[Sarcasm]

[SIZE="4"]Surnames seem to be related to tribes or towns, although patronymics sometimes appear as well:
[B]Abulokum Alizokum Atulikum Buntunes Lastiko Letontunos Obios Sekilakos Setantunos Veniakum Visalikum

Rektugenos - almost the same as the Gaulish name, above...
Setantunos - if this is a name, adherents of a particular theory of Irish history will love it.

Lots of Celtiberian inscriptions seem to be love tokens, so we probably have more female than male names recorded. Which is no good to EB.

I actually already have most of the names you have here, from the botorrita plates, under different transliterations on the current EB version. Some of these last you posted, the ones that end in -kum are most definitely identifying clans or tribes, not towns (not in the strict sense anyway), while those that end in -nos/-os/-s aren't necessarily patronymics, even though I assumed they were in my work just the same.

There's quite a few ceramics that bear marks of ownership too, so there's probably more than enough male names for the Celtiberians, but not the case for females which I'm always lacking.

[cmacq]

Fem suffix on a male name and just toss in the prefix for 'daughter of?' Or maybe leave the Fem part off altogether???

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Yeah! Sarcasm and *pronounces slowly* Elmetiacos!

Two guys who know Iberian stuff! In the same thread! You (the collective you) have made my weekend. Now questions (of the simple sort)...

From Elmetiacos...
Carlos Jordan Colera's Celtiberian grammar is a must-have and should be downloadable from E-Keltoi.

Ok. will look into that. Thanks. Is it ... free ... ?:book:

From Sarcasm...
I actually already have most of the names you have here, from the botorrita plates, under different transliterations on the current EB version.

Can I infer, Sir, that you have had a hand in the naming of the various Lusotanni (sp) FMs? If so, where would I find a list of the family names so as to create a workable "ruling tribes" spreadsheet for my upcoming campaign.

And ... as I have not yet purchased your last 2 book suggestions (one of them was $100+ !!) where do you rate Antonio Arribas' "The Iberians". I am currently reading it. I believe it to be horribly dated (aka - old), but perhaps a good foundation for a budding Ibero-History buff.

Much thanks!

[Elmetiacos]

Eek! I don't know much Celtiberian stuff at all!:embarassed:

I wondered if the Lusitanians might use some Celtiberian names... What have been discovered are lots of little bronze animals with the inscription "KAR" and someone's name, often a woman, although it can be a whole town or tribe. This element is usually translated as "friendship". Colera also speculates that Abaliu and Sleitiu could be feminine names. Here are some "KAR" token names but I don't know if they're actually women:
Arkailika Atikika Eliaka Ikurbika Kateraikina Koitina Libiaka Oilaunika Okelaka Routaikina Virouaka Uskika Ventana

[Elmetiacos]

3 - Buildings

Tentative names for buildings, first in Gaulish then Brythonic and what the name literally means. Most are reconstructions (guesswork!) on my part or someone else's:

Governor's Villa Dategos/Dategos (meeting house)
High King's Hold Marodategos/Marodategos (big meeting house)
Royal Household Maglodategos Vlidamaros/Maglodategos Vledamaros (mighty meeting house of great feasts)

Wooden Pallisade Uxsellocagis/Uxsellocagis (high up fence)
Wooden Walls Dunovallos/Dunovallos (fortress wall)
Stone Walls Artuvallos eti Cagis/Artuvallos eti Cagis (stone wall plus fence) (murus Gallicus)

Muster Field Magos Sl&#244;gi/Magos Slougi (field of the army)
Militia Barracks Marodategos Sl&#244;gi/Marodategos Slougi (big meeting house of the army)
City Barracks & Army Barracks I'm not sure what these do - can anyone help?

Festival (of some sort) Vlida T&#244;tas/Vleda Teytas (feast of the tribe)
Regional Games Vlida Comrogion/Vleda Combrogion (feast of fellow-countrymen)

Blacksmith Gobanos/Gobanos (smith)
Merchant (still working on this... there must be a word...)
Market Argentomagos/Argantomagos (silver field > market - Gaulish placename)
Forum Magos Alatos/Magos Alatos (many coloured field)

Port Canos/Canos (harbour)
Shipwright Canos Elulonganon/Canos Helulonganon (harbour of many ships)
Shipyard Marocanos Alatolonganon/Marocanos Alatolonganon (big harbour of many-coloured ships)

Sewers G&#234;tues/Gaitues (channels*) or Tegos Sapoparicon/Tegos Sapoparicon (soap-makers' house)
Did the Celts invent soap? I don't know either...
*my own reconstruction, especially dodgy.
Baths Lovantri/Lovantroi (baths)

Roads Mantali/Mantaloi (paths)
Paved Roads - do they get them?

Farming Gnutomagses/Gnutomagses (crop fields)
Farming +1 Magses Comari/Magses Comaroi (fields of joint ploughing)

Mine M&#234;nocladis/Mainocladis (mine)

Field of Games Vor&#234;magos/Huoraimagos (game field)
Town Garrison Tegos Ariani/Tegos Harianoi (house of guards)
Tavern Tegos Largolamion/Tegos Largolamion (house of the generous hand - thanks to cmacq)
Bardic Circle Dategos Bardon/Dategos Bardon (meeting house of bards)

Shrine Aricelos/Haricelos (sanctuary)
Temple Nemeton/Nemeton (holy place)
Large Temple Ariosos/Hariosos (temple {building})
Awesome Temple Ariosos Brigantos/Hariosos Brigantos (high temple)
Without knowing what gods and goddesses are supposed to do what in the game, I can't yet assign any. Also, Celtic deities didn't really have such well defined roles as the Roman or Greek ones. They could be substituted with the Interpretatio Romana but it might not be too accurate.

Academy Tegos Vor-Canatli/Tegos Vor-Canatli (house of teaching/learning)
Scriptorium Dategos Druidon/Dategos Druidon (druid meeting house)
Ludus Magnus Nemetodunon Druidon agos V&#226;tion/Nemetodunon Druiton agos Vailites (holy citadel of druids and seers)

Doctor Tegos Iacc&#226;s/Tegos Iacc&#226;s (house of health/curing)
Hospital Dategos Iaccanom/Dategos Iaccanon (meeting house of cures)

Granary Grannobotos/Grannobotos (grain hut)
Grain Silo Grannobotos Maros/Grannobotos Maros (big grain hut)

Shipwright Longaparicos/Longaparicos (ship maker)
Naval Bay Coriolongaticom/Coriolongaticon (Gaulish place name + corio- "army")
River Port Abonatiom/Abonatiom (river division)

Hero Cult Shrine - Cavaronemeton/Cavaronemeton (hero holy place) very Greek, not very Celtic

Government Types
Military Feeder Vlata Agromagesos/Vlata Agromagesos (authority of the battlefield)
Type I Cont&#244;ti/Comteyti (kinsmen) part of your tribe
Type II C&#234;liot&#244;ta Constata/Cailioteyta Comstata (client-tribe of equal standing) confederates and close allies
Type III C&#234;liot&#244;ta Vassoni/Cailioteyta Vassoni (client tribe of servants) enfiefed tribe
Type IV Allomores Vocelati/Allomores Vocelati (protected foreigners) conquered foreign region

Any comments welcome.
EDIT - I forgot *magos is an S stem

[cmacq]

After a very quick review...

...sweet!!!

Altough...

would Dunuceta Exartunos work, for Murus Gallicus?

[Sarcasm]

Eek! I don't know much Celtiberian stuff at all!:embarassed:

I wondered if the Lusitanians might use some Celtiberian names... What have been discovered are lots of little bronze animals with the inscription "KAR" and someone's name, often a woman, although it can be a whole town or tribe. This element is usually translated as "friendship". Colera also speculates that Abaliu and Sleitiu could be feminine names. Here are some "KAR" token names but I don't know if they're actually women:
Arkailika Atikika Eliaka Ikurbika Kateraikina Koitina Libiaka Oilaunika Okelaka Routaikina Virouaka Uskika Ventana

This is actually a subject that I would love to have the time to pursue, and will be further addressed in EB2. I was a real rookie at the time I made the lists, so hopefully they'll turn out much better this time around. Frankly I'm a little unwilling to accept some of Colera's conclusions, I think he takes a few leaps of faith.


Yeah! Sarcasm and *pronounces slowly* Elmetiacos!

Two guys who know Iberian stuff! In the same thread! You (the collective you) have made my weekend. Now questions (of the simple sort)...

From Elmetiacos...

Ok. will look into that. Thanks. Is it ... free ... ?:book:

From Sarcasm...

Can I infer, Sir, that you have had a hand in the naming of the various Lusotanni (sp) FMs? If so, where would I find a list of the family names so as to create a workable "ruling tribes" spreadsheet for my upcoming campaign.

And ... as I have not yet purchased your last 2 book suggestions (one of them was $100+ !!) where do you rate Antonio Arribas' "The Iberians". I am currently reading it. I believe it to be horribly dated (aka - old), but perhaps a good foundation for a budding Ibero-History buff.

Much thanks!

'ere ya go mate. It's a relatively well know e-keltoi article.

http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_17/jordan_6_17.pdf

On the book, old is not always a bad thing. In fact sometimes you find stuff that has fallen of the face of the earth since then...on this one in specific, it's not really that old (1963, I think?), and it's a good book actually especially for it's price. Like most all-encompassing books though, it lacks details - which is ok, if you don't want anything more than a thorough introduction.

[Ludens]

Roads Mantali/Mantaloi (paths)
Paved Roads - do they get them?
Aedui and Averni can construct paved roads, but the Casse cannot.

[Elmetiacos]

would Dunuceta Exartunos work, for Murus Gallicus?
I'm not sure about that... Fortress- forest? On the stone?

[cmacq]

I'm not sure about that... Fortress- forest? On the stone?

Dunuceta Exartunos
Fort-wood/cet/cait from/made of?-stone?

or Artunes of-stone

[Metalstrm]

You guys are well informed on the subject! Congrats!

It's nice to see people collaborating...

[Elmetiacos]

Aedui and Averni can construct paved roads, but the Casse cannot.
Thanks! In that case:
Paved Roads Artusl&#234;bon Litanon/ -- (broad stone road)

Now for a merchant... I've found a root *prin- which has to do with buying, selling and exchange of goods (modern Welsh prynu) and another, *gworteka- which is something like a unit of exchange. We could choose what's on the face of it sort of tautological *vortecoprinikos (exchanger of exchangable stuff) or a simpler *prinikos (buyer/seller) or yet another "house" one, Tegos Prinimas (house of exchange).

I also need to correct the Brythonic Druides to Druites and there's a Magos up there somewhere which should be in italics and isn't.

A few additional notes on my choices:
With that plural, I'm making an assumption. We have a few British tribes with names ending in -ntes. We also have an example of a singluar Brigans. This could be just following Latin grammar, but what if it's also a Latinisation of a Brythonic singular *Brigants? This would mean the Britons had a slightly different plural of dental stem nouns from the Gauls: -tes and not -des. I went with that just to make their language a bit different. It could be wrong!
A couple of other things I've not yet dealt with are the reason for that Aztec-looking Hu- in Brythonic for a Gaulish V- in the Field of Games and difference between Gaulish *&#234; and Brythonic *ai. The first one is simply because the modern Welsh is chwarae, suggesting a voiceless hw- sound at the start of the word. Hw looked too Germanic.:yes: In Gaulish, we know sound changes occurred during the EB period and ei was reduced to a long e (&#234;). But in Brythonic ei appears as wy in Welsh (*neito- > nwyd, *meino- > mwyn) suggesting the reduction didn't happen, but instead there was a back formation *ei > *oi. *ai represents a halfway point. Vled- vs. Vlid- is based on an i > e sound shift in insular Celtic but not in Gaulish.

[Elmetiacos]

4 - The Celtic Map

Some names don't really need changing at all and others just need grammatical corrections; a lot of towns' names can easily be re-Celticised by changing the -um to -on. This ending is quite common. Some names are taken from Kenneth Jackson's suggested names for the Ordnance Survey Map of Southern Britain in the Iron Age.

Map Regions

Amoriae Arimorica
Batromorgan Bituvlata ("World Dominion"? Bituriges country)
Bellavecaea Belgae Tirri Nessubelganom ("Lands of the Near Belgae")
Brigantiae Vlata Brigantom ("Domain of the Brigantes")
Caledryn Caladonion
Cambriae Pennomroges ("Hill People")
Cassemorg Maglocassion ("Greater Cassia")
Conovae Belerion
Corieltauvae Coritanion
Cruddain Hiwernon Woluntia ("Ireland of the Ulaidh")
Erain Hiwernon Hiwerna ("Ireland of the Erainn")
Greseoallra Cumbadruente ("Valley of the Durance")
Lemorisae Tirros Pictonion ("Land of the Pictones")
Lugonesis Allomrogis ("foreign country" - wonder why...)
Mrogaidu Aidumrogis
Mrogaulae Lhitavia (vestigial Φ represented in the spelling, but probably not pronounced)
Nervaea Belgae Tirri Cenobelganom ("Lands of the Far Belgae")
Noricae Comaltios Noricon ("Federation (lit. brotherhood) of Noricum")
Sequallra Vlata Sequanon ("Domain of the Sequani")
Vindelicos Abnoba (mountains)
Volcallra Tolosamrogis

Towns and Other Strongholds

Bratosporios - Bratuspatu
Caern Brigantae - Isurion Brigantê
Camelosadae - Camulodunon
Emain Macha - Isamnion
Ictis - Isca
Ratae - Ratas
Viennos - Viennas

More Notes

I'm baffled by Attuaca as this should be the capital of the German Tungri tribe in Belgium. Does anyone know why it's in Scotland?
Vindelicoppidos in an attempted renaming of Augusta Vendelicorum. This was a Roman foundation. I'd suggest Sorviodunon (Regensburg) instead.
Ynys Mon might have the name Nemeton Druiton ("Holy place of the Druids") but was there a single stronghold? An alternative would be to choose Camarthen - Moridunon or a Dunom Ordovicion placed anywhere in central Wales.
I can't quite follow where the Celts end and the Dacians begin in the Hungary-Banat area... can someone tell me who's a Celt and what these -ouw names are and what Mrogbonna is? I'm also extremely sceptical about this "Ak Ink" name for prehistoric Budapest and think it's likely the work of a Victorian crank whose work appeared in an early Encyclopaedia Britannica and which has kept getting dragged up ever since. The name is certainly not Celtic as alleged. Didn't the Iazyges speak something like Scythian...?
Aquitae shouldn't be Celtic at all. Aquitanian is almost certainly close to Basque. Which means I can't really help. :no:

[Ludens]

I'm baffled by Attuaca as this should be the capital of the German Tungri tribe in Belgium. Does anyone know why it's in Scotland?
One of the team members mentioned it was a placeholder name that never got round to being replaced. Do we actually know of any sizeable town in Caledonia in this era?

[cmacq]

Not to draw too fine a point but just to start...

1) Arimorica was Kelt?
2) Caladonion?-given the temporal setting wouldn't Alba, Albain, or Albann with a capital of Dun Eideann be a tad more appropriate?
3) Vlata Brigantom?-how about Tirros Parision as they moved here far eariler and seemed to have been reduced by the much later arrival of followers of the 'Bright One?'
4) Pennomroges?-Ordovicion as early (1st century AD) there appears a strong connection between Wales and Erainn?
5) Co(r)novae Belerion?-as these tribal names appear very old; Cornovion or Dumnonion?

Also will you address the Aithechthuatha issue?

[Elmetiacos]

Not to draw too fine a point but just to start...

1) Arimorica was Kelt?
2) Caladonion?-given the temporal setting wouldn't Aba, Albain, or Albann with a capital of Dun Eideann be a tad more appropriate?

Definitely not - these names are all modern Scots Gaelic. This would be out of period, especially when nobody in this region spoke a Q-Celtic language (a few in Argyll possibly) plus, Dun Eideann is a translation of the Northumbrian name which is itself a translation of the Cumbric name. It only became capital of Scotland in the 15th Century.

3) Vlata Brigantom?-how about Tirros Parision as they moved here far eariler and seemed to have been reduced by the much later arrival of followers of the 'Bright One?'
I'd be inclined to think the Brigantes were there first, but I suppose I would say that. In any case, the Brigantes are assumed to be dominant. Tirros Parision would have to have Petuaris as its capital.

4) Pennomroges?-Ordovicion?
5) Co(r)novae Belerion?-as these tribal names appear very old; Cornovion or Dumnonion?

Also will you address the Aithechthuatha issue?
Ordovicion is a possibility but it would leave out Silures, for instance. It's a matter of preference. Belerion is on the OSMOSBITII is the name for Land's End and the Devon-Cornwall penninsula. Again, it's preference. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Aithechthuatha... they're usually to do with Tuathal Techtmar, who's later than EB. Can you explain further?

[Disciple of Tacitus]

A question to you both.

Do any of these changes you are suggesting wander south of the Pyrennes? I know this starts to enter into some speculation and there are other issues as well. But I am curious.

And that e-Keltoi is quite technical. :dizzy2: It makes my head spin!

[cmacq]

Sorry, used Dun Eideann/Din Eiden for Traprain Law (only its site name) which is a short distance to the east and was occupied as a large hill fort from the Late Bronze Age well into the Roman period. Seems to have been abandoned for some reason...
as the Antonine Wall was established. Reoccupied again after they returned to the southern wall. Was and remained the oppidum/capital of the Otalini/Otadini/Votadini/Gododdin until totally replaced by Din Eiden between AD 400 and 500. Now Ptolemy lists the towns of the Otadini as Alauna, Bremenium, and Coria, but none appear to have been Traprain Law? If you don't like this site there are relatively large Iron Age settlements at Dunsapie Hill, Duddingston and Inveresk. Some have even suggested that Din Eiden was Ptolemy's Alauna as recent excavations have deminstrated an occupation by at least the 1st century AD (this alone suggests an eariler settlement).

Also pardon me as I should have used the greek 'Albion' or 'Alouion' as recorded by Ptolemy? We also have the much much earlier Pytheas of Massilia use of 'Albion' and 'Ierne.' You of course know what the later is as I didn't want to address that issue? Now to honest, I'll dissect as 'Albion' in Pytheas' time was applied to all of Britain, yet by Ptolemy's day was passing to become only a generic term for Scotland.

Aithechthuatha-Attacotti, which I know appear later in Latin, but I think there is some evidence they were around in Ireland and possibly Scotland by the 1st century BC.

[Sarcasm]

A question to you both.

Do any of these changes you are suggesting wander south of the Pyrennes? I know this starts to enter into some speculation and there are other issues as well. But I am curious.

And that e-Keltoi is quite technical. :dizzy2: It makes my head spin!

Apart from a few tribes on the Northwestern corner of the map, I don't think so. And even then it's a "maybe" at best.

[Elmetiacos]

The Celtiberians only figure in a couple of provinces and so they're sort of peripheral to what I'm doing. I may suggest a couple of name changes to unit types (and I doubt the Dodoskitl... Doskidetaliska... Diskodat... heavy armour spear guys actually existed at all, let alone unifying Ireland) possibly because some tribes have been made too Celtic and not Basque enough.

cmacq - I don't see that the Latin Attecotti is the same as the Irish Aithechthuatha at all. There's an -outas missing... Most writers think the word means "very old people" or "those who returned to the old ways".

[cmacq]

Right,

landless or ancient Pikeys with skills.

Also we're not talking about a national capital, such as the capital of Scotland, rather a local seat of power that was only first among near-equals. Of ourse Rome would be a horse of a different colour.

[Sarcasm]

The Celtiberians only figure in a couple of provinces and so they're sort of peripheral to what I'm doing. I may suggest a couple of name changes to unit types (and I doubt the Dodoskitl... Doskidetaliska... Diskodat... heavy armour spear guys actually existed at all, let alone unifying Ireland) possibly because some tribes have been made too Celtic and not Basque enough.

You're always welcome to suggest, when the suggestions are done properly.

Although I have serious doubts as to what constituted being "Basque" at that point in history, the Dosidataskeli were in long before I took "charge" of Iberia and unless proven otherwise, they're gonna get the axe for EB2 for sure - that I had decided almost from the get-go.

[lobf]

As a former Basque country resident, I can't wait to see some realistic Basque soldiers (I only say that based on the implication that they are a-historical). Some hillmen of the kind that wrecked Charlemagne perhaps.

[blitzkrieg80]

I can't quite follow where the Celts end and the Dacians begin in the Hungary-Banat area... can someone tell me who's a Celt and what these -ouw names are and what Mrogbonna is?

Good/interesting question. I have wondered about the -ouw myself (it could be -kouw)... i will see if i can find something plausible.

Lugouw, Coutinoe, Eravacouw, Scourcouw are the East Celts of around the Bohemia/Moravia complex as far as recruitment goes.

Scor in Scour-couw is definitely the Scordisci, their unit is recruitable there. I have a map that says Eravacouw are the Eravisci from what i can tell. the Continoe would be the Cotini. Lugouw the Lugi... the question of whether these guys are truly Celtic (language and ethnicit) comes to mind, but that is unimportant as far as finding out what -couw means. We know the Celts did invade the Carpathian area. It looks like Latin/Greek o = ou in many instances, such as Coutin, Scour, so maybe its easier to find suffix as -ow?

I was told by one Celtic student that Proto-Celtic mrog means 'land of' and appears as -morg, related to Old Irish murg and muird? therefore Mrogbonna would be 'Land of Boii (Bononae)'

a free online .pdf Proto-Celtic dictionary [from the University of Wales, i think- moe?] i have, says *mrogi- means 'border'

? *skouw = *skorā- (?) enclosure .... (still looking)

? *keiwo- man (anybody know how to inflect Proto-Celtic? it would help ~:) for a plural of men would make sense- similar to Bavaria [Baia(Boii)-warjoz)

it occurs to me that couw could be some form of -cum ??? (with a dropped nasal on an unstressed word-final?) but this isn't likely eh? there is a notable lack of that suffix which one would think would find its way into the game somewhere are homage, it's like if no German province had the familar '-land'

could -ouw be some genetive plural so just - 'of the x'?


is this totally unrelated? maybe i sound like an idiot, trying to be helpful... oh well.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Although I have serious doubts as to what constituted being "Basque" at that point in history, the Dosidataskeli were in long before I took "charge" of Iberia and unless proven otherwise, they're gonna get the axe for EB2 for sure - that I had decided almost from the get-go.


Cool. It's fascinating for me to just watch the conversations here. I agree on the Basque issue. What would constitute a Basque unit in this time frame? IIRC, Charlemagne is a good 1,000 yrs off (or near abouts). I'm all for some Basque units, but where is the proof for those units? Do we have any/enough?


A beginner's question, but isn't Basque a re-constructed language?



Oh dear, I don't think I've ever "meet" the Dosidataskeli before. What are they/which province can you find them? And ... well actually, I suppse when you answer those questions, I will know why they are getting axed.


@ Sarcasm. How do you feel about Appian's works regarding Iberia? They are contemporary no? I am looking for a dual-language version of it, any suggestions?

Thanks all for your time and assistance.

[cmacq]

Ordovicion is a possibility but it would leave out Silures, for instance. It's a matter of preference.

Belerion is on the OSMOSBITII is the name for Land's End and the Devon-Cornwall penninsula. Again, it's preference.

Ordovicion or Silurion, the later may be better, but the former seems to have had a stronger connection with Ireland. And then there was that island where later the priestly class made their last stand.

Despite the long-lost Belgae in Wiltshire and Hampshire, Belerion sounds way too Belgy further west?'

[Teutobod II]

4 - The Celtic Map


Vindelicoppidos in an attempted renaming of Augusta Vendelicorum. This was a Roman foundation. I'd suggest Sorviodunon (Regensburg) instead.


the Celtic Name for Regensburg was „Radasbona“, „Ratasbona“ or „Ratisbona“

[Elmetiacos]

the Celtic Name for Regensburg was „Radasbona“, „Ratasbona“ or „Ratisbona“
Bleah! You're right, of course - Soroviodurum is Straubing. :embarassed:

[Shylence]

Im in no way as expert as you two in the field of anicent celtic langauges of britain but i always thoguht Ynys-mon was wrong. That it is indeed the modern welsh spelling for Anglesey. Anglesey im presuming being a more germanic perhaps Norse word for the island.

I could be wrong but the modern name of Ynys Mon is also descended from the Irish for Inish m&#243;n. Or that modern Gaeilge and Cymraeg both have Inish and Ynys respectivly for the english word of Isle/Island

Anyways Elmeticos and Cmacq this is indeed and intresting thread which i have followed after the previous argument over the Celtic naming. The Names in which Elmetiacos provided for Britons i can use for minor characters in my A.A.R

Cheers:book: :book: :balloon2:


Oh yes! GIrth like Esus!!!! hahahahahahahahahaha i only just picked up on that

[Elmetiacos]

Good/interesting question. I have wondered about the -ouw myself (it could be -kouw)... i will see if i can find something plausible.

Lugouw, Coutinoe, Eravacouw, Scourcouw are the East Celts of around the Bohemia/Moravia complex as far as recruitment goes.

Scor in Scour-couw is definitely the Scordisci, their unit is recruitable there. I have a map that says Eravacouw are the Eravisci from what i can tell. the Continoe would be the Cotini. Lugouw the Lugi... the question of whether these guys are truly Celtic (language and ethnicit) comes to mind, but that is unimportant as far as finding out what -couw means. We know the Celts did invade the Carpathian area. It looks like Latin/Greek o = ou in many instances, such as Coutin, Scour, so maybe its easier to find suffix as -ow?

I was told by one Celtic student that Proto-Celtic mrog means 'land of' and appears as -morg, related to Old Irish murg and muird? therefore Mrogbonna would be 'Land of Boii (Bononae)'

a free online .pdf Proto-Celtic dictionary [from the University of Wales, i think- moe?] i have, says *mrogi- means 'border'

? *skouw = *skorā- (?) enclosure .... (still looking)

? *keiwo- man (anybody know how to inflect Proto-Celtic? it would help ~:) for a plural of men would make sense- similar to Bavaria [Baia(Boii)-warjoz)

I think, like some other names on the map, the (c)ouw's are the result of a little too much creativity. Unfortunately, this leaves us with the problem of what to use instead. More -mrogis names? This link:
http://www.ieed.nl/cgi-bin/query.cgi?basename=\data\ie\celtic&root=leiden
points to a database query (go a bit easy on it... it keeps being busy, what with all the thousands of students of proto-Celtic out there) which says, after Pokorny, that the mrog- root means country rather than border... wonder why the online PrC-English went for "border"? I knew it might not be 100%; University of Wales hosts the site but I don't think they created the list. In any case, mrogi- is just the root and can't be pasted onto things without any grammatical rules: Boiomrogis or Boimrogis might be better.

Proto-Celtic and early Gaulish plural of *keiwo- would be *keiwoi. Gaulish would be *Cêvi. Btw, Wikipedia's Gaulish Language page has a handy table of Gaulish declensions, but the dental and S stems are missing from it.


it occurs to me that couw could be some form of -cum ??? (with a dropped nasal on an unstressed word-final?) but this isn't likely eh? there is a notable lack of that suffix which one would think would find its way into the game somewhere are homage, it's like if no German province had the familar '-land'

could -ouw be some genetive plural so just - 'of the x'?

is this totally unrelated? maybe i sound like an idiot, trying to be helpful... oh well.
-ou(w) is the dual genitive in proto-Celtic. I think the dual was gone by our period. I can't find a reason for these endings. :inquisitive:

[lobf]

Cool. It's fascinating for me to just watch the conversations here. I agree on the Basque issue. What would constitute a Basque unit in this time frame? IIRC, Charlemagne is a good 1,000 yrs off (or near abouts). I'm all for some Basque units, but where is the proof for those units? Do we have any/enough?

Considering the current Luso expert wanted to scrap them almost immediately...

Not to mention the fact that the Basque country (as far as i remember) was never a nation that could produce the wealth to outfit soldiers like those heavy spear dudes. They have been more historically interested in preserving themselves, not military conquest.

And I'm no expert, but would it be a stretch to assume that life changed little in the Basque country in the time during the Roman era and Charlemagne? Besides Christianity appearing.


A beginner's question, but isn't Basque a re-constructed language?

Modern Basque? No, it's just a long-lasting language.



Oh dear, I don't think I've ever "meet" the Dosidataskeli before. What are they/which province can you find them? And ... well actually, I suppse when you answer those questions, I will know why they are getting axed.

In modern day Gipuzkoa/Pamplona or Ireland.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

@LOBF. thanks for the answers, sir. I think I found the pics by the artist whose names escapes me now (shame on me) . Although the unit looks cool, if it didn't exist, so be it. I never saw these in-game so no loss to me if they are not in EB 1.1!
The Lusos don't have a "reform" in the game, and from what I know of Iberian history in the EB time frame, there is really no need to give them one. Is this a correct assumption?

Ok, no more side-topic questions. We now return to our regularly scheduled discussion.
*grabs popcorn, pulls up chair*

[Elmetiacos]

The only thing I can suggest for Attuaca is Uerturio which is supposed to be the Pictish version of Fortriu/Fortrenn, but that's a kingdom rather than a city.

[cmacq]

Im in no way as expert as you two in the field of anicent celtic langauges of britain but i always thoguht Ynys-mon was wrong. That it is indeed the modern welsh spelling for Anglesey. Anglesey im presuming being a more germanic perhaps Norse word for the island.

I could be wrong but the modern name of Ynys Mon is also descended from the Irish for Inish m&#243;n. Or that modern Gaeilge and Cymraeg both have Inish and Ynys respectivly for the english word of Isle/Island

Anyways Elmeticos and Cmacq this is indeed and intresting thread which i have followed after the previous argument over the Celtic naming


Please, don't put me in the same class as Elmeticos as my level of comprehension of the Kelt Lingos is elementary at best. I however, do have a very good understanding the archaeology and associated Latin and Greek literary sources.

If your responding to the post in which I indirectly brought up the Ordovices association with Ireland and their control of Anglesey, you're correct. In the late 1st century AD the Latins recorded it as Mona, which no doubt is where the Welsh mon was derived. Now, there is no way that as similar to OI, or some other Q-Kelt, it actually was Mo-na or 'that which is greater,' or 'greater not?'

[Elmetiacos]

5 - Units (Irish & Continental Celtic)

The area of units, their capabilities and their names is the most controversial one, so I've saved it til last. In this first post, I'll try to tackle Eleutheroi which have been given some sort of Celtic identity.

Cladaca (Goidelic Light Infantry)
Vellinica (Goidelic Levy)
Cruvamendica (Goidelic Cavalry)
Ordmalica (Goidelic Shock Infantry)
Eiras (Goidelic Nobles)
Dubosaverlacica (Ebherni Armoured Shock Infantry)

Other than the "Vellinica" my assessment is that all of these units are pure fantasy, without any basis whatsoever. No Irish warriors were equipped with armour of any sort until the Viking period. Even in assessing a later period Lloyd Laing in The Archaeology of the Late Celtic Period in Britain and Ireland 400-1200AD remarks, 'The only armour apparently possessed in the Celtic West was the [I]shield - round target-like shields are depicted in the Book of Kells - and shield bosses are know from Lagore, Ballinderry 2 and Lough Faughan.' Lagore's occupation is dated to c.600-1000, Ballinderry 2 to 500-700 and Lough Faughan uncertain, but roughly the same period. A full milennium after the EB period, still no metal armour, not even metal helmets. Look at the description of Cu Chulainn getting ready for a battle in the Tain Bo Cuailgne; this is pure myth, of course, but that's the point: here is Ireland's greatest warrior putting the Best Armour In The World EVAH!!! and there's no metal at all - just 27 layers of leather. If even fantasy armour wasn't metal, what chance real armour was?

The "Shock Troops" thus become impossible. A big, heavy, Dungeons & Dragons style hammer is hardly a realistic weapon in the first place. There was a late mediaeval war hammer, but it wasn't really a hammer at all; more of a pick axe with one end blunt and was created to deal with plate armour. Neither would there have been "fish scale" armour worn by a masked elite.

So what could we have to make units in Ireland more interesting, with some basis in reality?

The Vellinica can be renamed Ketern&#226; - a (dodgy) conjectural root of the mediaeval Irish Ceithern (Anglo-Irish "Kern")

How did the elite warriors fight? We now come to the Irish chariot controversy. The Ulster cycle is full of chariots. Some scholars recently began to suggest that this was not due to any true reflection of historical Celtic warfare, but because the monks who wrote down the tales were influenced by Greek epics and so furnished their heroes with chariots. They pictured a chariot as something like a cart. To me, this is all wrong, one step away from saying, "Ha, ha - those thick Paddies imagining their great heroes in hay carts!" Why were no other Homeric images borrowed? Why don't Cu Chulainn and Fergus and the rest go around in bronze armour? Not only that, but we have a small collection of words to do with chariots that aren't fully understood and characters like Laeg who are in the stories just to drive chariots - did the mediaeval scribes make up new characters and make up new words? Nah, I say give the Irish chariots. :whip:

Cidainh (currently a British unit) Erretes

Later Roman account mention Areani, foreign mercenaries used in Britain to spy on the movements of troublesome Picts, Attecotti and Scots. Vanilla RTW turned them into Roman ninjas called Arcani, but the word seems to be based on proto-Celtic *φarj&#226;no- for a guard or watch. Perhaps an Irish fast-moving, hiding unit based on these could be introduced - Arianoi ?

Finally, two suggestions based purely on Tain Bo Cuailgne references; firstly to a cual geithe - sheaf of spears, as some kind of military strategy or formation with another to heavy, two handed spears so we might have a more defensive, armour-less phalanx type unit forming a big mass of long spears; secondly a reference to a cranntabhal, or staff sling, raising the possibility of a unit of staff-slingers whose range would be relatively short but more damaging.
The older form of cual geithe would be something like Couglas Gaesu.
A cranntabhal unit might be called Qrannotroqaloi.

Balroae (Caledonian Skirmishers)
Immanae ("Ambushers")
Silurae Birnae (Siluri Warband)
Drwdae (Druids)
Calawre (Champions)
Kluddargos (Sword Masters)

Balroae and Siluri Birnae Rextunaites (surprise attackers: rextu- "sudden fury")
Immanae Gaisonaites Ieieses (younger spearmen)
Calawre Catuviroi (battle heroes)
The Calawre/Catuviroi have too much armour; archaeology suggests that only at the very end of the EB period did the Britons begin using mail in any quantity; there was never "bronze scale".
Drwdae and Kluddargos are fantasy units. The Druids are never recorded anywhere as picking up weapons and fighting - in fact to do so would have undermined their status since they were supposed to remain impartial and aloof from tribal conflicts. There were never any two handed swords in Britain before the Crusades; 70cm was the typical length of a Celtic sword.

Milnaht - To me, this looks like a fantasy unit again.

I don't know much about Gaulish warfare, so in most cases I can only offer new terms:

Batacorii Gaison&#234;des Belganom (Belgic spearmen)
Taramannos Marcages (horsemen) (description is fantasy)
Remi Mairepos - see note below
Gaelaiche Gaison&#234;des (spearmen)
Bagaudas - such a name did exist, and did mean "guerilla" but not til the 3rd Century AD... hmm...
Brihentin - Maglomarcages (noble horsemen, "knights")
Solduros - C&#244;sicingeti (guard warriors) these look doubtful... any sources?

note - Caesar says about the Remi that the Romans took them totally by surprise, surrounded their camp and they surrendered without a fight. We know nothing about them as a fighting tribe and this unit for me has "fantasy" written all over it. Anyone know different?

Iosatae Tropalon&#234;des (sling-fighters)
Sotaroas Lacicon&#234;des??? this suggestion is very weak... I don't think there were any Celtic bowmen
Lugoae Alion&#234;des (secondary fighters)
Bataroas Voclion&#234;des (northern fighters)
Botroas Dexson&#234;des (southern fighters)
Gaeroas Gaison&#234;des (again!) (spearmen)
Uirodusios Merecingeti (mad warriors) or Mextumedues (intoxicated by slaughter (mwahaharr!))
Cidainh Erredes (charioteers - borrowed into Latin as Essedes)
Golberi Curoas N&#234;des Allomrogibi (fighters with the foreigners) warning - hypothetical instrumental case
Enoci Curoas Cledon&#234;des Allomrogibi (sword fighters with the foreigners)
Teceitos B&#234;alin&#234;des (axe fighters) see note below
Kluddacorii Cledocorion (sword-army)
Mori Gaesum - this is close enough
Appea Gaedotos, Noricene Gaecori - are these Celtic? They seem to have the Irish word for "spear" in there
Tekastos Beialineides (let's re-spell B&#234;alin&#234;des!)
Cordinau Orca Korioturkoi (army-boars - K's to look Graeco-Celtic...)
Kludda Lugiae - fantasy unit
Clona Tekonac - doubtful if the Cantabrians spoke a Celtic language. If they did - Bealineizes
Roscaithrera - this isn't translated but if it's meant to be round shields, Krubeskeizoi
Eponireidam - again no translation: Celtiberian equivalent of Marcages could be Markakes
Clona Gosnasio - no translation... Gaisuneizes for "spearmen"?

note - There's no evidence that Celts fought with axes... OTOH there's nothing to say they didn't... my re-enactment friends seem to agree an axe is nasty against shields but not good to defend with. Possibly a low defensive skill factor is in order.

Dosidataskeli - an unpronouncable fantasy unit.

Liguriae - Examples of units with Celtic names that shouldn't have.

Again, any and all comments welcome. Next up and finally, the Gauls and the tricky subject of the Britons...

EDIT - cingetoi, not cingedes

[cmacq]

The only thing I can suggest for Attuaca is Uerturio which is supposed to be the Pictish version of Fortriu/Fortrenn, but that's a kingdom rather than a city.

A reconstruction based on a reconstruction based on the Latin Ver-tur-ion-es? Which are you going with, Woolf's Moray or the discredited Strathearn placement? Otherwise its all very post EB. A more mainstream location for a capital would be somewhere near or around Falkirk? Its important to note that the EB time frame is well before the construction of any roman walls.

Also thank god you killed the skippy Kerns, lumbering Gallowglasses, and nasty bit of amour near altogether. The only element of metal armour I know of was the cup-shaped shield-boss? Looks like you've done your home work (and then some) here. Its all very well sorted out and very realistic, good work.

[Watchman]

note - There's no evidence that Celts fought with axes... OTOH there's nothing to say they didn't... my re-enactment friends seem to agree an axe is nasty against shields but not good to defend with. Possibly a low defensive skill factor is in order.You used the shield for defense anyway, didn't you ? That's what the thing is carried for, doubly so with intentionally tip-heavy "mass" weapons like axes and maces (which intentionally trade improved impact power and, yes, "armour busting" ability - not to forget the low cost - for agility).
:inquisitive:
...or would you be trying to argue an axe is an unviable weapon...? 'Cause I'm going to open a can of historical whoopass on ya if you are. :rockstar:

[blitzkrieg80]

note - There's no evidence that Celts fought with axes... OTOH there's nothing to say they didn't... my re-enactment friends seem to agree an axe is nasty against shields but not good to defend with. Possibly a low defensive skill factor is in order.

I totally agree that axes are overrated- defensive value such as that of the sword is very important... a good warrior doesnt die right away and thus can kill more total.... i think most sword-fighting is similarly innacurate as we know it, because wide-swings are just asking for an easy kill by your opponent


so this doesnt mean anything? or did Caesar's Marian legions carry these as their standard melee weapon of choice?

http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/caesar_venustrophy2.jpg

"It's a commerative coin of Caesar's about the Gallic war, showing the Gallic kit, note the axe." (true, as Sarcasm has pointed out, it is a common symbol... could easily be a fasces.)


https://img92.imageshack.us/img92/3048/irishlatene2smxu9.th.jpg (https://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=irishlatene2smxu9.jpg)

"These are Irish La Tene objects, but you can see two axeheads there, one is a smaller socket axe head, the larger one is a later La Tene Irish axehead, probably from right before or the beginning of the Gadelic invasions or early Gaelic period."


https://img170.imageshack.us/img170/999/britishcelticaxeqe8.th.jpg (https://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=britishcelticaxeqe8.jpg)

"Here you can see a British Celtic axe. The blade from the handle out would be maybe about eight inches. This is a socket-axe head, specifically, with an oval socket."


https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6893/celticaxebq1.th.jpg (https://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=celticaxebq1.jpg)

"And this one is a continental Celtic axe, which was since bought by a private group, but, still, here it is to look at, and get an idea of variety we have to play with for Celts with axes. This would be a more regular axe type, with a wide head probably mounted on a longer grip than the little hatchets."

[cmacq]

http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/caesar_venustrophy2.jpg

"It's a commerative coin of Caesar's about the Gallic war, showing the Gallic kit, note the axe."

I'm wondering if the numismatic depiction in your post was fasces-esque? Possibly representing a trophy of the authority of a conquered state or enthos.

[blitzkrieg80]

darn you, you quoted me before i put an edit ~:) that's what i get for posting and re-editing rather than waiting until finished ~;p

[cmacq]

I could have asked if it was Fascist, instead?

[blitzkrieg80]

No, i like Fasc-esque.:yes:

[Elmetiacos]

It looks like a fasces to me... the coin is saying, "Here's a picture of Gaulish acoutrements - the clothes, the horned helmet, the figure-8 shield, the carnyx... and we killed their owners and put them on display! Rome rules! There's our symbol triumphant!"

The axes are interesting, but of course, when you only have the head, it's a tough call whether the weapon was used to chop wood or to chop enemies. Hard to tell from pics, but I would say the first one is more likely to be a wood axe, the second more likely to be a weapon: battle axe heads are generally lighter and sharper because you have to swing them about much more in a fight - unlike swords, battle axes are best kept in constant motion. With this in mind, if the Celts used axes in combat, then it's likely there were specialist axemen because you'd need to practice a lot to build up the muscles and stamina to do this.

On the Pictish capital, I can't do do any better, I'm afraid.

[Ludens]

Regarding the Briton units, shouldn't they have a unit of champions or some sort of elite infantry? Or does the absence of the Cwmyr in your list mean that you agree with this unit?

[Aromir]

It looks like a fasces to me... the coin is saying, "Here's a picture of Gaulish acoutrements - the clothes, the horned helmet, the figure-8 shield, the carnyx... and we killed their owners and put them on display! Rome rules! There's our symbol triumphant!"

The axes are interesting, but of course, when you only have the head, it's a tough call whether the weapon was used to chop wood or to chop enemies. Hard to tell from pics, but I would say the first one is more likely to be a wood axe, the second more likely to be a weapon: battle axe heads are generally lighter and sharper because you have to swing them about much more in a fight - unlike swords, battle axes are best kept in constant motion. With this in mind, if the Celts used axes in combat, then it's likely there were specialist axemen because you'd need to practice a lot to build up the muscles and stamina to do this.

On the Pictish capital, I can't do do any better, I'm afraid.

http://billed.hum.au.dk/antik/img/scaled/DM%20021.png
From the grave monument of the julii in Glanum near St. remy.

Not exactly solidly dated but its proberly from the julio-claudian era, seems to have been done by local artist (meaning either local greeks from massila or gauls of some sort), same artist proberly did the arc in orange and some stuff in arles.

Its not solid proof but certainly indicates that atleast some gauls were using axes.

[Redmeth]

You keep saying 2-handed swords are fantasy but look here :


https://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7529/collectionltfinishti2.th.jpg (https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=collectionltfinishti2.jpg) Ignore the bottom left; those on the extreme are two-handed swords from Britain and Ireland's iron age.

https://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8418/celtswordevoldonecompleqg2.th.jpg (https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=celtswordevoldonecompleqg2.jpg) And ornate hilts.

[The General]

Awesome thread is awesome. :yes:

[cmacq]

You keep saying 2-handed swords are fantasy but look here :

I don't think those depicted are actually two-hand types. The tangs are far two short to be two-hand types as the wood handle would soon break. To be sure we need a scale. Of the hilts a motley group indeed, yet in common these are all single-hand grips; some are late bronze age, others early iron age, and some later? All have type names and are chronologically ordered as per seriation and in some cases are pinned down calendrically by an association (physical or stylistically) with a diagnostic ceramic type, which in turn may or may not be dendro-ed. I'm just saying, Radio-carbon sucks big time.

[Elmetiacos]

Regarding the Briton units, shouldn't they have a unit of champions or some sort of elite infantry? Or does the absence of the Cwmyr in your list mean that you agree with this unit?
I've not dealt with playable Britons in that post, only Eleutheroi.

[cmacq]

http://billed.hum.au.dk/antik/img/scaled/DM%20021.png
From the grave monument of the julii in Glanum near St. remy.

Not exactly solidly dated but its proberly from the julio-claudian era, seems to have been done by local artist (meaning either local greeks from massila or gauls of some sort), same artist proberly did the arc in orange and some stuff in arles.

Its not solid proof but certainly indicates that atleast some gauls were using axes.

Devils and details, as we may want to become a little more familiar with this edifice from Glann's town? In fact, these panels (overall four all told) do not depict battles between romans and kelts, nor do they bare the weapons or dress there of.

[Sarcasm]

While just how Celtic the Cantabrians were is debatable, they were most certainly heavily influenced by them, and also used bipenne axes. Currently I'm in Prague and haven't my computer here, but there's quite a few sources for them using axes.

And modern Basque is most certainly a constructed language. There were quite a few dialects during the period where we can actually call them Basques, and in this period they were much less unified. The language itself has evolved plenty since then. Their way of war was much like the central and eastern north of the peninsula.

[Elmetiacos]

You keep saying 2-handed swords are fantasy but look here :
I see no two handed grips here; for a start, these swords are not all in the same collection; it's an image of just about every Celtic sword ever discovered cut and pasted. Therefore, we've no idea whether they are all on the same scale or not and even if they are, there is no great variation in blade or hilt size.

[Elmetiacos]

While just how Celtic the Cantabrians were is debatable, they were most certainly heavily influenced by them, and also used bipenne axes. Currently I'm in Prague and haven't my computer here, but there's quite a few sources for them using axes.

And modern Basque is most certainly a constructed language. There were quite a few dialects during the period where we can actually call them Basques, and in this period they were much less unified. The language itself has evolved plenty since then. Their way of war was much like the central and eastern north of the peninsula.
I'm not denying the Cantabrians specifically fought with axes, just that they should have Celtic names to describe their units.

Saying Basque is "constructed" makes it sound as if Basque is like Esperanto. If it's constructed, then so are English, French and Spanish.

[lobf]

And modern Basque is most certainly a constructed language. There were quite a few dialects during the period where we can actually call them Basques, and in this period they were much less unified. The language itself has evolved plenty since then. Their way of war was much like the central and eastern north of the peninsula.

I thought what the guy was asking was whether or not the language was one that dieed out, then was reconstructed for modern Basques to speak. I was saying it was a continuous language. Of course it evolved, all languages do. Er Olde English is practically impossible to read and if you go back further it's like another language entirely.

And Sabino Arana did some language inventing of his own, but not nearly enough to consider his language constructed.

[Elmetiacos]

6 - Aedui, Arverni, Cassi

Continuing the treatment of Celtic units.

Before we go any further, I've just noticed the following Pontic & Galatian units are Galatian Celts (will this never end?!) and in need of re-naming:
Galatikoi Kluddolon Kledobereikoi
Galatikoi Lavotuxri Troumbomarkages
Galatikoi Tindanotae Merekiggetoi
I've simply chosen older forms of Gaulish with a Greek look. I can only do the Gaulish; they may want a Greek descriptor... what did the Pontics speak?

Most of the Aedui and Arverni units are also Eleutheroi and so I dealt with them above. An excess of armour seems to feature again, although this isn't as much of an error as it is for British and Irish Celts. More than one Roman writer said that the Gauls had formerly fought in the same way as the Britons, so in 272BC, two centuries before Caesar, perhaps there ought to be less armour and more chariots? This would necessitate one of those reform scripts, though and I'm in the dark about those.

Neitos look a bit like an imitation legion and the name actually means a fight or quarrel, not warriors. There are two words which could be used instead; N&#234;des (fighters) or Cingeti (warriors) - the latter is part of the name of Vercingetorix "True Warrior King".

Carnute Cingetos are a fantasy unit. There's nothing to suggest a link to the god Cernunnos and the Carnutes were a tribe, not a political/religious organisation.
Leuce Epos - Barcamarcages (onrush riders)
Curepos - is there a difference from the Leuce Epos? Bitaminis (said to mean "swarm of bees")
Arjos - Catuvalli (battle lords)

Now the Britons...

As with the Irish, some of the Cassian units are fantasy. There is, for instance, nothing to differentiate warriors from the English Midlands from those elsewhere. It is not very likely that separate units of swordsmen existed; the "Celtic longsword" as I've already pointed out, shouldn't be envisaged as being as large as the later pattern-welded Viking broadswords or those of mediaeval knights. The average length of a blade was around 70cm and many had blunt tips so couldn't be used for thrusting. It seems to be reasonable to suppose that swords were very much secondary weapons for use when spears were broken, or as status symbols. Also: you can't cut off someone's head with a spear! We have lots of sling stones from the British iron age, but note: only stones not lead bullets, so the slings would have inferior penetration to Mediterranean ones. However, I don't think the Britons were organised enough to create whole units of slingers, so no Iaosatae. Bows were not used as weapons in this period according to any evidence, so the Sotaroas should go.

What can we discover about the way the Britons actually fought? We have only archaeology to go on plus not always reliable accounts from Roman authors. Welsh heroic literature, unlike the Irish, is of no use since it recalls a much later period. Caesar was a propagandist and a good deal of what he says in unreliable, but what he does say is that the Britons of the 1st Century used a mixture of cavalry and chariots - chariots presumably were beginning to be replaced by cavalry as had happened in Gaul - and that they threw missiles. Chariot and rarer horse burials confirm this. He also says that his own slingers at one point proved instrumental in driving back the Britons... if true, this would support the idea that the Britons didn't concentrate slingers in separare units and/or only used inferior ammunition.

More Roman snippets suggest additional information about the Britons' methods: during Boudicca's rebellion, Tacitus and Dio Cassius the Roman legions were able to use their pila to disrupt the British attack which suggests two things; firstly that the missiles the Britons used were short ranged and intended to be hurled immediately before charging (otherwise the Romans would have suffered almost as badly from the return-fire) and secondly that at least some of the Britons fought in formation, not as some kind of screaming, wild mob. What sort of javelins the Britons used can't easily be confirmed by archaeology because the shafts tend not to survive. The fact Suetonius chose to fight with a forest at his back (in RTW this is asking to be ambushed!) reinforces the idea of British reliance on chariots and solid formations: wild skirmishers would be helped by a forest.

What about those other two clich&#233;s of their methods of warfare; scythed chariots and women warriors? We've no archaelogical evidence for scythed chariots. Caesar doesn't mention them, but other Roman writers maintained the Britons did use them and even gave them a name - Covin(n)i. Archaeology might tell us whether there were women warriors or not - if we find a female skeleton buried with a sword, spear and shield boss, there we have a warrior-woman. Only, as I type this I'm reading a bitterly critical essay pointing out that archaeologists don't bother sexing skeletons, always assuming a male if weapons are found and a female if domestic items are found. Hmm. Roman writers' descriptions of the women of Britain and Gaul seem a bit too close to "Red Sonja" type fantasy warrior women (in their Celtic chainmail bikinis...) and are of little help, although we do have Tacitus' account of the attack on Anglesey '...with women flitting between the ranks. In the style of Furies, in robes of deathly black and with dishevelled hair, they brandished their torches' (Military History.com tries to make them naked and painted - they weren't) and Suetonius facing Boudicca: "There," he said, "you see more women than warriors".

Casse Unit Suggestions:
Gaisonaites (spear fighters) Basic spearmen, large-ish shield, spear, one pre-charge javelin, no armour.
Gaisonaites Tropalobi (spearmen with slings) as above but with slings rather than javelins. Slings will have less ammo and be slightly less damaging.
Gaisonaites Ieieses (younger spearmen) skirmishers - younger warriors being introduced to fighting. Worse in hand-to-hand combat but carry more javelins.
Maxtemedui or Merecingetoi naked nutjobs. One javelin, one spear, high morale, impetuous, no armour (obviously)
Erretes (chariot fighters) Usual two horse chariot, lots of javelins, can fight well but not charge
Raimos Catucarom (lead chariot) General unit in a chariot as above

Controversial Units:
Cerbocovinni (scythed chariots) I know someone has them because I've fought them... same stats?
Brannognatas (raven daughters) Anglesey style madwomen with torches, dishevelled hair and black robes; raise morale and frighten, ridiculously high morale themselves, but not very effective in combat and no armour.

Reform I (later historical/pseudo-historical) Units:
Marobarkonaites (great spearmen) Copies of the Irish cual geithe, a shieldless phalanx.
Prannotropaloi (staff slings) Copies of the Irish staff slingers, if used.
Marcoges (riders) Skirmish cavalry along Gaulish lines.
Baialinaites (axe fighters) if we want them...

Reform II ("what if") Units:
Agramarcoges (slaughtering riders) proper fighting cavalry along Gaulish lines
Cruppeloi (armoured men - dodgy root) mail armour, shield, one spear, one javelin and a sword for backup
Cruppeloi Anbristani (unbreakable armoured men) the Marobarkonaites with armour added.
Tropalonaites (sling fighters) proper slingers

And that's it.

EDIT - Cinget(o)i not Cingedes

[cmacq]

for horse draw carts this may help a little?

http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol5/5_1/karl_5_1.html

I believe on the continent as larger and strong breeds of equines reached further west the war-waggons fell more out of favor. However, the Kelt pony remained very common in the insular setting; too small to ride effectively into battle.

[Elmetiacos]

Thanks - I'd already read that article but then forgot where it was! I'm almost inclined to think that some Celtic chariots were "modular" and that a roof, seats or a container for javelins might be added on or taken off according to what you were going to do with the chariot. I can't think anyone sat down in the middle of a battle, for instance. A scythed chariot would be a different matter; I think there was only one person in it (the Romans copied the covinnus for peacetime use) and the axle would probably need reinforcing.

[Taliferno]

Agree with what you say about the Irish. On the chariots I still don't believe that they were used in as great numbers as in Britain-the terrain of Ireland isn't ideal for chariot use outside of NE Ulster (were a part of a chariot has been found of Northern English, southern scottish origin/type-other than this find I don't think there is a definite archaeological find that can be identified as part of a chariot in Ireland).

Heres a link to a pro-chariot article on E-Keltoi (I'm sure Elmetiacos and cmacq have already read it, but for others) :http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol5/5_1/karl_5_1.html


I would also argue for a calvary unit (or at least a 'mounted infantry' unit-but that cant be simulated in RTW). This is mostly based on the sheer number of decorated horsebits and pendants (about 1/4 of all La Tene finds in Ireland).
It would seem that the Irish were an equestrian culture and a calvary unit would have been better suited to ancient Irelands terrain than chariots.
NOTE: I'm not saying that this hypothesized unit should look like or be called Cruvamendica. (I haven't a clue about Irish linguistics of any era by the way-strcitly an archaeologist. Unless Mallory of some other notable uses Irish myths or language in one of their articles I probably have never heard of it).

On axes, In Ireland at least there is evidence that it was used to kill people-see clonycavan man. But of course that was almost certainly a ritual killing.

Finally, a quote from Dion Cassius (via, Xiphilinus) where he describes the Caledonians in battle:

"They go into battle in chariots, and have small, swift horses; there are also foot-soldiers, very swift in running and very firm in standing their ground. For arms they have a shield and a short spear, with a bronze apple attached to the end of the spear-shaft, so that when it is shaken it may clash and terrify the enemy; and they also have dagger."

Although he is writing in the early 3rd century ad, the equipment he gives the caledonians-short spears with bronze spear butts, dagger might be refering to the very short Irish swords- has been found in an Irish context during ebs time period.



GAH! Didn't see that cmacq had already posted the link!

[Aromir]

Devils and details, as we may want to become a little more familiar with this edifice from Glann's town? In fact, these panels (overall four all told) do not depict battles between romans and kelts, nor do they bare the weapons or dress there of.

Im sorry but im not quite sure what you are indicating? Some scholars surgest that these panels are based on lost hellenistic paintings from a greek city, maybe Massila or posibly Pergamon other scholars say that they are inspired by roman art, (I didn't even state who the gauls were fighting, to avoid this). But i have not seen anybody surgest that the if i may say so "the barbarians" here would not be Kelts or even not be Gauls.
I must say that i cant see how these having greek originals would in any way discredit what they depict?
About their representation i belive one of the reasons people think they are based on greek art is that representation appearently resemple the gauls/keltic(galatians if you want) representations know from Pergamon.
Also most commen interpretation of them seems to be that it was a monument over a familys heroic ancestors that served under Julius Ceasar against the gauls. But there might be other interpretations though.

Is this what you are talking about? Im not quite sure what exactly you were refering to. (and not sure i totally got the point)

[Elmetiacos]

The Caledonians sound pretty much the same as what I was proposing on the previous page for the Britons in general.

[cmacq]

The south panel?

http://www.livius.org/a/france/remy/glanum_mausoleum_relief_s.JPG

One may note the Hellenic dress, weapons, defensive gear, and even the Hellenic babies held in the background? Can we say Meleager's hunt for the Calydonian Boar, with Castor and Pollux on horseback? Herein Heroes attempt to drive off the monster boar sent by Artemis as (right) Theseus raising his double-bladed axe? Right, in the background we have the massacre of Niobe's callow kids, no?

Perhaps, the dedicating native (SEX&#183;M&#183;L&#183;IVLIEI&#183;C&#183;F&#183;PARENTIBVS&#183;SVEIS; each with only two names) julii, not Romani, wanting to be more Hellenic? Then again possibly Keltic as in a Caledonian Bore?

[Watchman]

The axes are interesting, but of course, when you only have the head, it's a tough call whether the weapon was used to chop wood or to chop enemies. Hard to tell from pics, but I would say the first one is more likely to be a wood axe, the second more likely to be a weapon: battle axe heads are generally lighter and sharper because you have to swing them about much more in a fight - unlike swords, battle axes are best kept in constant motion.No offense, but given the dearth of actual knowledge on the topic demonstrated here you seem to be talking in rather certain tones. Throughout the very long period the device has existed in metal form, purpose-made war axes have demonstrated a truly bewildering variety of shapes and sizes according to specific performance specs desired and challenges to be met; nevermind now that perfectly ordinary working axes, which every household had at least one of at least around the forested parts, kill people just fine especially if you don't have to worry about lots of armour.
Why do you think the offensive arms of the average Viking raider were the spear and the axe ? Because both were cheap, versatile, and everyone had them and some skill with them to begin with.

I'll decline to comment on the patently nonsensical statement of the weapons' employement in combat other than noting it as such, as I'm somewhat pressed for time right now.


With this in mind, if the Celts used axes in combat, then it's likely there were specialist axemen because you'd need to practice a lot to build up the muscles and stamina to do this.:inquisitive: Hardly any more than one of those nifty heavy longswords required, I would daresay. Or, for that matter, the effective employement of any other weapon in extended combat.

Quite on the contrary, I would rather argue that the axe-wielding warriors were anything but "specialists" - rather they were individuals who simply preferred that simple, cheap and quite effective weapon. Of all the arms readily accessible to the common warrior, or for that matter Celtic warriors in general, the axe would have been by far the one best suited to defeating armour to boot, a selling point all of its own...
The advantage granted by the rather expensive and prestigious mail to your opponent rather diminishes when you can quite readily enough hurt him through it with such a readily available and cheap weapon, after all. :smash:

[Elmetiacos]

Watchman: how many times have you actually fought with a sword or an axe?

[Ludens]

Most of the Aedui and Arverni units are also Eleutheroi and so I dealt with them above. An excess of armour seems to feature again, although this isn't as much of an error as it is for British and Irish Celts. More than one Roman writer said that the Gauls had formerly fought in the same way as the Britons, so in 272BC, two centuries before Caesar, perhaps there ought to be less armour and more chariots? This would necessitate one of those reform scripts, though and I'm in the dark about those.

Already in place. IIRC only the Gallic bodyguards units get armour in the early period (age of freemen). Armoured units only become available after the first (age of bondsmen) and second reform (age of soldiers). You can check this in the recruitment viewer: the unit card shows an F, B and/or S depending on which reform the unit is tied to. The Gauls also get access to chariots (although they lose them with the second reform, IIRC because Gallic chariots were last recorded around 180 BC). However, they are seldom recruited because they are tricky to use, don't cause that much casualties, and unlike the Britons the Gauls do get decent cavalry.

[Watchman]

Watchman: how many times have you actually fought with a sword or an axe?I have actually trained with longsword a bit. Plus read quite a bit of what people who very seriously study and train in the matter have to say on the topic, as well as happen to have a talkative close relative who's extensively enough into the martial arts to have gotten to the weapons-training point of a Far East one.

So I would actually daresay I'm not talking entirely out of my ass here. :beam:

Anyway, as to why exactly you don't want to "keep an axe in constant motion" (aside from the most obvious stamina-preservation reasons), it's more or less the same reason as with any other weapon - no sense in just waving it about unless you have a practical reason to have it moving somewhere - plus the specific detail that so clearly sets tip-heavy "mass" weapons like axes and maces apart from most swords and gives them their characteristic impact power; namely, once you've put the thing in motion at speed along a given vector, its sheer intertia and momentum make it that much more difficult to alter its trajectory nevermind stop it. In other words once it's going one way it's going to take some time and effort to make it go somewhere else, and if the former happens to be the proverbial Wrong Place Wrong Time you are, at the very least, going to miss at least a few opportunities to do your opponent grievous bodily harm; worse, there's a very real chance that with your main offensive weapon careening "out of line" somewhere it really shouldn't be, you're giving your enemy a nice opportunity to, ah, "do unto others as they would unto you"...

...which is already a weighty enough reason to play it at least as safe and careful with an axe or suchlike as you would with a sword, ie. keep it in guard ready to strike and away from the enemy until there's a real reason to get it moving somewhere fast. These aren't the most agile weapons around, nor terribly good for warding off blows with, but they pack quite a wallop for their size and weight; not all that forgiving of wasted or plain wrong moves, but very dangerous when used properly.

[Elmetiacos]

I suspect this is faulty physics; a circular motion is not single vectored motion, otherwise a sling wouldn't work. I've seen axe demos modelled on Anglo Saxon huscarls where the axe was kept in motion in a figure 8 sort of pattern and I too know a few WMA afficionados, some of whom have trained with axes and it's not like using a spear or a sword (actually, I don't know anyone who's fought with a spear...) We're once again trapped by the limits of archaeology because even if we have weapon-looking axe heads, we don't know for sure the length of the handles. Hypothetical Celtic axemen could have use smaller axes or two-handed ones. It's also possible warriors who couldn't afford swords might take axes as secondary weapons, but it would still be awkward to use one if you weren't trained as an axeman.

By the way, are you arguing for or against Celtic axe units...?

[Watchman]

I'm arguing against your somewhat dubious claims of how the axe worked in combat.

Anyway, the two-handed "broad" or "Danish" axe was, at least in Europe, a rather specialised late Viking Age developement. By all accounts dreadfully effective when they hit something - contemporary descriptions of their use in battle are rife with mentions of demolished shields, mailed men slain outright and horses brough low with one fell swoop - but also distinctly cumbersome and wont to expose their wielder to unwelcome attentions of the enemy with rather little means of doing anything about it (as getting the heavy thing back "in line" - as the experts usually seem to call the "ready" position - from a swing was a bit of a challenge). One possible solution was to obviously simply keep it moving as fast as possible to that the foemen would have a hard time getting close enough without risking a hit, and the damn unwieldy thing would be coming around for another pass ASAP before some bugger lunged into the opening and gutted you, but even a strong fit man obviously has some trouble keeping this up for long and it naturally doesn't go well with the close-packed shieldwall tactics of the time.
(I've read a longtime Viking re-enactor's accounts of his experiences with the things, too. :book: )

Another somewhat hypothetical method was pairing the axe-man with a guy wielding the usual kit (spear, sword, one-handed axe) and training them to operate as a team, so that the shield-man covered the axe-man during the inevitable "recoveries" following any swing of that mighty but tricky weapon (and blocked nasty flying sharp things while he was at it, since the axe dude obviously couldn't use his own shield).

In any case, a powerful but problematical and hence rather specialised "expert" weapon. The later assorted halberds, pole-axes and other staff weapons, which packed at least as much punch in a considerably more versatile, agile and manageable package (that extra meter or two of shaft seems to have done wonders to handling...), proved to be considerably more widely and durably popular among all ranks.


And those also aren't the axes we're talking about here. The axes we're talking about are one-handers, many by the looks of it with comparatively light heads too. The basic methods of employing such with a shield aren't terribly different from those used with a sword, already because there's only so many ways the human body geometry allows the basic combination to be used effectively. (For a rather similar reason the basic "guards" of a straight two-handed European longsword and the Japanese "bastard sabre" katana are largely identical; there's only so many possible ways to do it right.)

[blitzkrieg80]

...which is already a weighty enough reason to play it at least as safe and careful with an axe or suchlike as you would with a sword, ie. keep it in guard ready to strike and away from the enemy until there's a real reason to get it moving somewhere fast. These aren't the most agile weapons around, nor terribly good for warding off blows with, but they pack quite a wallop for their size and weight; not all that forgiving of wasted or plain wrong moves, but very dangerous when used properly.

this is exactly right, imo. from my own experience training in a university class on Korean swordfighting (yay, my most useless class in relation to the modern world), it's amazing how stupid our modern sensibilities are on the subject, as we see with reenactment, or pop-culture swordfighting where they stick the blade out and swing it around (although Celtic swords were bade for a particular style)- in reality it's easy to knock it away and make a quick foward motion, slashing or stabbing and ending that person's contribution to a battle, even in armor. the key is to keep a blade between yourself and the enemy's blade and you'll win by virtue of defense and you wait for the appropriate opening in your opponents'. heavy swinging items may have the added value of not being entirely blockable, but they leave one severely open to attack and thus are not actually the best weapon combination. there is a reason that nobility, even viking nobility, used sword and shield as the optimal configuration and that is it: sword + shield = defense x 2 rather than just 1, because of the defensive nature of a strongly held sword.

using this same logic, it makes no sense to swing the axe around and tire yourself out, no energy is being preserved in centripetal motion as you say, unless an enemy is so stupid they walk into the small and OBVIOUS range of your circular stroke. as soon as you deviate you lose that supposed 'sling'-like energy. (by the way, notice how, when using a sling, you use a string/chord because your arms don't move in a perfect circular / eliptical motion). besides that, you cannot defend yourself while bustling around for no reason, and the primary purpose of war is to live long enough to kill more, not kill 1 foe in single combat. predictability is almost worse than any other factor in a battle. the axe would be used moreso when an opening in defense was seen rather than willy-nilly because it takes longer to deal another.

[Watchman]

Well - even the sword guys tended to prefer shields for defense mind you. 'Cept if they were toting two-handers (or mounted), but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

It's not a coincidence nigh every human culture ever that for some reason got into the idea of bashing your neighbours' heads in being a potentially quite profitable operation developed either the shield, some off-hand parrying device to fill the same role, or, most commonly, both.

[Elmetiacos]

Interesting though it may be, I don't want to get drawn too far into a Western Martial Arts axe fighting debate.

So, units of Celtic axemen or not?

[Watchman]

I don't see why not, anyway.

[cmacq]

So, just to get this straight, what you'll are saying is that within the EB time frame; 1) they employed formations armed primarily with the axe; 2) or was it that they were first and foremost spearmen that often used the axe?

[Watchman]

Eh, remember the limits the engine places on equipping units ? So if you're going to have axes they're going to have to be in their own unit. I'm guessing the comparatively small base size of the basic axe guys (40 instead of the 50 commonly found in Celtic units of that grade) is there to represent that this wasn't an altogether too common combat kit ?

[cmacq]

Eh, remember the limits the engine places on equipping units ? So if you're going to have axes they're going to have to be in their own unit. I'm guessing the comparatively small base size of the basic axe guys (40 instead of the 50 commonly found in Celtic units of that grade) is there to represent that this wasn't an altogether too common combat kit ?

Sounds like a good compromise to me. If for example, the number was dropped down to say, 60 on huge, what would their advantage be; shock, armour piercing, moral boost, or a high attack/low defense?

[Tellos Athenaios]

You want to drop their numbers to the level of a general's bodyguard?

[cmacq]

I guess what I'm saying is, as opposed to the common light or heavy spear/sword unit, beside semblance, what would the axe bring to the table as a minority formation?

[russia almighty]

Could always make them a poor levy unit. Can't even afford a metal spear, but they have that wood ax laying around.

[Elmetiacos]

Tested axes are effective against rigid targets, such as helmets and shields rather than being universally armour piercing. The (perhaps overly) realistic model would therefore be high attack but a slightly heavier than usual penalty against horse and elephant and a penalty against the few units that don't have shields, if this can be done. I'd support one less defence than a sword unit, but this is risking getting back to the axe fighting argument...

[Watchman]

They're also pretty good against mail you know. All that leverage focusing on such a small area is Not Good for flexible armour, even if the blow doesn't actually bust through the links (which also happens often enough).

IIRC by what I've read of it, Medieval folks regarded falchions and battleaxes as good against everything up to coat-of-plates/brigandine or thereabouts.

...and to make long story short, your proposed modifiers don't make all that much sense. Nor do I even want to think about the complications such would add to statting units like Appea Gaedotos, the Babylonian heavy inf etc....


Could always make them a poor levy unit. Can't even afford a metal spear, but they have that wood ax laying around.For the record, knives, spears (knives on sticks) and axes were something practically everyone had and wouldn't have too much trouble affording if he needed a new one. They were, after all, very cheap and easy to make, ubiquitously used for assorted everyday purposes (spears were usually hunted with), and made effective enough weapons when necessary.

The levies normally stuck to spears for the simple reason a bunch of men woth shields and long pointy things in reasonably close order are a credible battlefield presence even with minimal training; axes are no less demanding than swords to use, so odds are the folks who elected to fight with them as the primary melee weapon were better trained.

[cmacq]

Despite a mail shirt the axe will break a bone better than a sword with its impact alone. But what % would you suggest of a typical field army used the axe as a primary weapon; 05, 10, 15%, or greater?

[Elmetiacos]

Hmm, you can't do what I suggested anyway; modifiers only count against mounts. All the same, making axes armour piercing isn't realistic, especially in a period where most armour isn't rigid.

A typical Celtic axe unit might be something like:

category infantry
class light
voice_type General_1
soldier ???, 50, 0, 1.05
officer ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
officer ebofficer_celtic_officer
mount_effect elephant -4, horse -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation 1.2, 1.4, 2.4, 2.8, 5, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 6, 4, javelin, 35, 1, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown, ap(?)
stat_sec 12, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, axe, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 1, 8, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, -1, -1
stat_mental 8, impetuous, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0

Or not...?

[Tellos Athenaios]

The AP attribute does not represent: 'this weapon smashes right through armour'; instead it's chosen to represent 'by and large armour does not protect very well against the damage done by this weapon' ... I.e.: blunt force trauma.

[cmacq]

The reason I'm asking is because; whats to keep someone or the AI from building full stacks with 50 to 60% naked fanatics for example, as I have often seen. By avoiding a full-on battle, for the most-part these can be handled easy enough, yet its still not very realistic?

Additionally, is there some kind of hidden compaction factor that effects the proficiency and efficiency of a formation based on the primary weapon type?

[Watchman]

An unit's attack values are calculated by taking the base number according to its grade and adding any modifiers from weapons.


Hmm, you can't do what I suggested anyway; modifiers only count against mounts. All the same, making axes armour piercing isn't realistic, especially in a period where most armour isn't rigid.What Tellos said, plus the way an axe puts a lot of oomph behind a small sharp contact point means it rends even mail pretty well.

Non-metallic armour collapses under (and/or is simply cut through) a square hit even more readily, obviously, so I really don't get that whole bit about non-rigid armours. Solid rounded hard surfaces always provided the best overall protection, anyway...


Also, just asking, but what exactly is your logic for suggesting axe-armed infantry would be any more vulnerable to cavalry than other non-spear melee troops ?

[Elmetiacos]

An unit's attack values are calculated by taking the base number according to its grade and adding any modifiers from weapons.

What Tellos said, plus the way an axe puts a lot of oomph behind a small sharp contact point means it rends even mail pretty well.
I've not heard any serious claims from hoplologists that axes are more effective against mail than swords. Since EB doesn't seem to distinguish swords with points from those without, I'm not sure about armour piercing axes.


Non-metallic armour collapses under (and/or is simply cut through) a square hit even more readily, obviously, so I really don't get that whole bit about non-rigid armours. Solid rounded hard surfaces always provided the best overall protection, anyway...

Also, just asking, but what exactly is your logic for suggesting axe-armed infantry would be any more vulnerable to cavalry than other non-spear melee troops ?
I'm not arguing that; I'm saying that we give axes a slightly higher attack than swords because of its effectiveness against shields and certain armour, but we take that away again when fighting cavalry and elephants because that extra effectiveness wouldn't be a factor.

[Watchman]

I've not heard any serious claims from hoplologists that axes are more effective against mail than swords.:shrug: I have. Heck, Medieval knights often enough opted for an axe or a heavy chopping sword operating on similar principles (ie. a falchion) for dealing with their peers rather than blunt sword edges on mail.

Mail doesn't like focused heavy impacts, being somewhat poor with this blunt-trauma stuff. No armour in general likes heavy impacts focused on a narrow area (in this case, the axe's cutting edge), what with this being the universal prime method of getting through armour (it's also used with kinetick penetrator rounds against tanks...), and guess what an axe provides an ample supply of ?
Combined with a decent amount of sharp-ish cutting edge to cause all kinds of jolly tissue damage, bleeding and suchlike once it gets through...

[Elmetiacos]

:shrug: I have.
Such as?

[Watchman]

:dizzy2: Just about every one who bothered discussing axes in addition to the generally more hawt sekshayer swords, by what I recall off the top of my head.

More to the point, though, what exactly are you basing your implied claim axes weren't on ? Far as I can tell it's going to have serious problems holding up on purely analytical basis already...

[MeinPanzer]

Interesting though it may be, I don't want to get drawn too far into a Western Martial Arts axe fighting debate.

So, units of Celtic axemen or not?

The real analysis you should be doing before deciding whether Celtic axemen should be included as a unit or not is not whether axes were found in a Celtic sites or not, but in what context they were found. Were axes found in burials? Or perhaps as stray finds in agricultural contexts? If the former, what other implements were found in the burials? Tools? Other weapons?

Of course, axes appear all over the ancient world, but to determine whether they were regularly used as weapons or not, one needs to examine the burial context. For instance, in Colchis and Iberia, numerous burials with axes have been found, but in these regions in the latter half of the first millennium BC, it was not customary to place tools in burials. This allows us to determine with certainty from these burials that axes were wielded as weapons regularly. In order to justify a separate Celtic unit carrying axes, you should have some way to establish with a similar certainty that these are weapons and not tools.

[Elmetiacos]

There've been 29 posts in this thread just on the subject of ******* axes! Anyone want to discuss anything else? Axes are not the central issue here, after all...

[Tellos Athenaios]

The reason I'm asking is because; whats to keep someone or the AI from building full stacks with 50 to 60% naked fanatics for example, as I have often seen. By avoiding a full-on battle, for the most-part these can be handled easy enough, yet its still not very realistic?

Relatively little; yet in M2TW the recruitment system works rather different: everything is regarded as a pool (with replenishment rates and all that, guess where this is leading us to ~;)) - with buildings & events enabling/disabling recruitment and/or modifying the replenishment rates.

We plan on taking (full) advantage of this system with EB2 -> so no more spammage of Triarii & Predites Extraordinarii etc. etc.

[Tellos Athenaios]

There've been 29 posts in this thread just on the subject of ******* axes!

Such is the nature of disagreement on these forums. :shrug: I seem to recall somebody started some discussion (digression?) about axes? <_<

[Elmetiacos]

I expected the controversy to be about the scythed chariots or the Couglas Gaesu or Brannognata units rather than statting for axe wielding units.

Regarding both axes and "Brannognata", Plutarch's Life of Marius mentions an alliance of Celtic and Germanic tribes where the women fought, and also used axes. The description sounds as if it might have been the basis for RTW's "Screeching women" units.

[cmacq]

I expected the controversy to be about the scythed chariots or the Couglas Gaesu or Brannognata units rather than statting for axe wielding units.

Regarding both axes and "Brannognata", Plutarch's Life of Marius mentions an alliance of Celtic and Germanic tribes where the women fought, and also used axes. The description sounds as if it might have been the basis for RTW's "Screeching women" units.

Rule Number VII) Expect the unexpected.
Right, as in the US court system, even the smallest hint, will leave the door open to rebut.

For example:
Are these Brannognata with the Cimbri invasion?

[Elmetiacos]

Yes; Ambrones, Cimbri and Teutones.

[cmacq]

Not to worry, I'll let this topic pass without reference, in order to keep this tread on track. Besides I'm addressing that unsaid issue in some depth on another tread, which has gone neglected, by myself, all these many days/weeks. The names provided herein may not be a bigger, but its a far different, fish to fry?

And, the axe is much as I've heard said, 'the truth of this is like a fish, that as one reaches out to grasp, it turns this, squirms, slips, and in the end it simply swims away?'

[MeinPanzer]

Regarding both axes and "Brannognata", Plutarch's Life of Marius mentions an alliance of Celtic and Germanic tribes where the women fought, and also used axes. The description sounds as if it might have been the basis for RTW's "Screeching women" units.

Though this occasion describes women making a desperate stand to defend their wagon train, and so was obviously an exceptional circumstance. Interestingly, just a bit before that it mentions Roman camp-followers taking swords, spears, and axes to defend themselves with in order to get water.

[cmacq]

Though this occasion describes women making a desperate stand to defend their wagon train, and so was obviously an exceptional circumstance. Interestingly, just a bit before that it mentions Roman camp-followers taking swords, spears, and axes to defend themselves with in order to get water.

Was that a waggon camp or train?

[MeinPanzer]

Was that a waggon camp or train?

I guess technically it was a camp, because they were stationary.

[Elmetiacos]

Ochón, 1.1 is out with the fantasy Maori speaking units intact... oh well, at least there's no more Cycles of Donn, Dave, Telam and Wuppem and this represents progress. Rome wasn't built in a day...

[Spendios]

Ochón, 1.1 is out with the fantasy Maori speaking units intact... oh well, at least there's no more Cycles of Donn, Dave, Telam and Wuppem and this represents progress. Rome wasn't built in a day...

You have crossed the line between constructive criticism and insults. If you are disappointed because no one is interested in your suggestions you are free to do your own mod with your own vision of the celts.

[Ludens]

:stop: Let's not fight that all over again.

However, it is a bit unreasonable to expect suggestions to be adopted this quickly. I mean, with a project this complex it takes a bit even to create a simple installer for a patch. You have to assemble the files, check whether you've got the correct ones, build the installer, test it, sort out any bugs, rebuild it, and so on; in other words they've probably been working on just that from around the time you've started this thread. EB1.1 would have been in the feature-lock stage way earlier. And that's not even counting the time needed to discuss, research and create the units you've proposed.

[Elmetiacos]

I didn't expect any of my suggestions necessarily to be implemented at all! I just hoped that some more of the doubtful material might be pared back. Anyway, these things take time. At least Caturiges is proper Celtic! :2thumbsup:

Anyway, to get back on track, the "Brannognata" might be made more defensive by not letting them get on ships, for instance. They should be a fairly small unit, too. I think they're the least feasible for implementation; they'd need a female model which there isn't room for (I wondered if eliminating the two handed weapon guys might free one, but I suspect they use the same as the Dacian falx wielders... again, this isn't something I know much about)

However! I have read through the export_descr_buildings file and am now much better placed to suggest an assignment of Celtic deities to temples. I'll stick them in my next post...

[Elmetiacos]

Temple of...
Battle: Cromm Cruaich is an Irish phrase meaning "Stooped of the Mound" and was never anything but a catch-all term for pagan gods disliked by the Christian Irish clergy. Teutatis (Toutatis) is more acceptable, but he has a better role, below. I'd put forward Andraste for the Cassi - the goddess invoked by Boudicca and in whose name she reportedly killed lots of Romans horribly - but for the Britons this is a deity who makes people happy as well! I'd suggest Epona, the horse goddess, who has a chariot and cavalry aspect as well as a good luck and fertility one. The Gaulish temple is purely a war-related one, so Taranis is probably the best choice.
Farming: Hmm... deity of farming but not fertility is difficult, especially one that is more important to Gauls than Britons (bonus-wise) I can only suggest the healing goddess Sirona, or in Gaul Grannos & Sirona, the couple, for the extra.
Fertility: It's much harder to find a Celtic goddess who isn't associated with fertility... Damona is a possible for the Aedui (a healing/fertility goddess with 3 husbands) but we need a law bonus for Gauls and a happiness bonus for Britons... nnh... perhaps Nehalinna for the Arverni and the water goddess Coventina for the Cassi. Perhaps Esus would be a better choice of the Aedui
Forge: The only possible candidate is the smith god Gobannos (Welsh Gofannon, Irish Goibhniu) for all three factions, not the horse goddess Epona.
Fun: currently we have Llew for the Britons, Cernunnos for the Aedui, Sucellos for the Arverni. Sucellos is associated with wine making in the Burgundy region of as well as being paired with the honey and funny-little-house-on-a-stick carrying Nantosuelta and so makes a good fun god, but he's more of an Aedui deity. Llew is modern Welsh and he isn't much fun... I'd suggest Maponos, instead, with his associations with music, hunting and youth, plus in Ireland he appears as Oenghus Mac Ind Og, definitely a sort of romantic figure. Cernunnos is one of the vaguest Celtic deities... nobody is certain even if it refers to a single god. The Arverni would perhaps be better served by the good luck and plenty goddess, Rosmerta.
Governors: Bloodthirsty Andraste is a weird choice for the Cassi, as is the thunder god Taranis for the Gauls. What would be ideal would be an Irish style sovereignty goddess for Britain and Gaul, but we don't have a name. :no: For the Britons, Rhiannon is the likliest candidate; the older form of her name is Rigantona - "Great queen" or "Most regal one". Both Gauls would probably be best served by Toutatis, "He of the Tribe".

So, here are the deities, with their names in the genitive case so they can be affixed to the appropriate word for a temple, in the order Aedui, Arverni, Casse:
Battle Taranes, Taranes, Eponas
Farming Granni agos Sironas, Granni agos Sironas, Sironas
Fertility Esôs, Nehalinnas, Coventinas
Forge Gobanni, Gobanni, Gobanni
Fun Sucelli, Rosmertas, Maponi
Governors Toutates, Toutates, Rigantonas

Two helpful books: Celtic Mythology - Proinsias MacCana; Celtic Goddesses - Miranda Green

[Redmeth]

The Irish Hammer troops and the heavily armored veiled troops in Ireland and Iberia are still in the game but have had their recruitment disabled so they're available only in Custom Battles and Multiplayer.

EDIT: For the temples, don't take the internal names literally they don't have any effect whatsoever we can put any gods on any complex... and give them whatever bonuses.

[Elmetiacos]

Two pieces of good news! Thanks!

[Watchman]

There've been 29 posts in this thread just on the subject of ******* axes! Anyone want to discuss anything else? Axes are not the central issue here, after all...
https://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1877/dutycallsvm7.th.png (https://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dutycallsvm7.png)
:shrug:

[Elmetiacos]

:laugh4:

[Elmetiacos]

Straying outside the strictly Celtic, I've come up with suggestions for the names of the two Ligurian units: Berethai for the infantry and Ekaithes for the cavalry. I took the Umbrian word for a spear and the changes from PIE to Ligurian which are suggested by place names according to Antonio Sciaretta.

[Elmetiacos]

This is more or less my final bit of tidying up - the mysterious -couw names on the map: -couw appears to be meaningless; I can't explain it. First we have Lugouw, with its capital Carrodunum, the modern Krakow in Poland. I don't know why the association with Lugh could have come from, unless it's LUGNU from the Graufenstein fragment, but the only major Celtic tribe in this region were the Cotini, so a better name might be Tirros Cotinion with Carrodunon its capital. Scorcouw and Eravacouw are distortions of the names of two Celtic tribes; the warlike Scordisci and the Eravisci who struck coins. The Scordisci may be named after a mountian Scordus (or vice versa) so this region could be called Scordutirros, with Singidunon (modern Belgrade) its capital. I suggest one of two alternatives for Eravacouw, Varcimrogis, after the Varciani tribe, or Eravitirros after the other tribe; its capital is the Roman Aquincum, but as I said, I don't like Ak-Ink; Victorian amateurs believed that primitive people had primitive languages and therefore imagined that, for instance, the Durotriges had originally called themselves Dur-Trigs and so, in the same way reconstructed Aquincum as two monosyllabic grunts for caveman-like Celts. I think it's unlikely we have a Q-Celtic variety here, so suspect it may be a river name based on *Ako- "fast" so I'll try Acoincon.

This means that the Appea Gaedotos and Noricene Gaecori do appear to fall into the Celtic category. New names for them, then, could be Gaisobericoi (spear carriers) and Gaisoi Comaltion (spears of the brotherhood (of tribes)) - the two samples of Noric Celtic we have suggest a more archaic form of Gaulish.

[Redshank]

Of course, axes appear all over the ancient world, but to determine whether they were regularly used as weapons or not, one needs to examine the burial context. For instance, in Colchis and Iberia, numerous burials with axes have been found, but in these regions in the latter half of the first millennium BC, it was not customary to place tools in burials. This allows us to determine with certainty from these burials that axes were wielded as weapons regularly. In order to justify a separate Celtic unit carrying axes, you should have some way to establish with a similar certainty that these are weapons and not tools.



Beyond what has already been posted earlier in this thread about axes, I'm fairly sure they are not uncommon, or at the least not unheard of in 'celtic' burial sites, centuries before the game's startdate. The only example I can remember off the top of my head though is the Hochdorf mound in Germany which dates to Halstatt D where 'weapons' in chiefly graves aside from daggers appear to become rare . In fact - google seems to have turned up this (http://www.laits.utexas.edu/ironagecelts/images/hochdorf/axe.html) from the website of the U of T. Since this, and similar contemporary burials are largely devoid of 'weapons' - swords, shields etc - I think it can safely be perceived that the axe in this context is indeed a tool or utensil rather than a weapon, especially given that numerous other hunting instruments ( fishing hooks, arrowheads, & a spear head iirc) were also present in this particular site.



I know that example is somewhat earlier than the EB timeframe, but surely the matter of whether an axe is perceived as a tool or a weapon becomes much more complicated during the later La T&#232;ne culture where weapons AND tools become both staple components of grave finds again ?


Still, I wouldn't necessarily prescribe to the notion that whether being able to establish if the use of axes as weapons during this period was nominal (which, imo anyway, appears likely) or not should outlaw their representation totally. Afterall, proving that an axe being perceived as a tool, admittedly, does not automatically equate definitively to it also not being considered a weapon.

[Watchman]

Put this way: many of the axeheads specifically made for war lend themselves rather poorly to more utilitarian employement. The humbler everyday utilitarian designs, on the other hand, nigh invariably make for effective enough weapons if necessary, albeit of course they're not quite the equals of purpose-made killing tools; humans, after all, being considerably more fragile than the stuff working axes are primarily designed to be used for...

As already mentioned, that's why they were so popular weapons among the rank-and-file of Viking raiders; everyone already had one and knew how to swing it. This kind of "double duty" capability has always been highly appreciated by the warriors of humbler means who had to think about their budget.

[Elmetiacos]

From an accuracy point of view, I'm not really bothered whether or not there are axemen; it's difficult to be right or wrong here. The only concern I have is about axes being armour piercing; I don't accept that they go through non-rigid armour as well as spears do.

[Watchman]

Weren't you the guy who at some point wanted to stop discussing the way axes work in combat...? :thinking:

Anyway, consider this. An axe is a sharpened, heavy-ish head at the end of a lever, intentionally somewhat unbalanced for greater percussive power. A mace or hammer with a sharp edge basically. You swing it at someone and hit, he's getting struck by all the quite considerable momentum and leverage the striking head develops when it traverses the arc of the swing - coming in behind that nasty, narrow, sharp business edge...
The shearing sound you hear is your soft-armour getting pretty concisely cut through. :smash:

The difference to a spear or similar thrusting weapon is specifically in that an axe or similar "mass" weapon is a weight at the end of a lever, ie. force-multiplier. It's not like pointy things like spears, whose business end is a narrow point, didn't have fairly good armour-piercing qualities; they do. But they're thrusting weapons; this has its own good points, but it does also mean they don't enjoy the benefit of the leverage multiplier "swung" weapons get.

[Elmetiacos]

I've been trying to find some examples on the web of tests conducted against various types of armour, but unfortunately I can't find anything which deals with the one-handed axes we're talking about here, only two handed Danish axes or late mediaeval pole axes.

The controversy is avoided, of course, if there aren't any Celtic axemen in the first place. They don't seem to bring anything to the game except causing arguments between axe-heads and sword-heads... ~:argue:

[Watchman]

You'd think applying a certain amount of elementary physics and good old common sense to the equation would get you somewhere, tho'.
And the fact figgen' knights, who certainly had few economical constraints when it came to their weaponry, liked to hit each other with the things well enough.
:juggle2:

If I may say so without being rude, it seems to me you're just being kind of obstinate here. "High-impact narrow-contact weapon" + "flexible armour in particular" = Pain, already by a rather elementary analysis of the physical principles involved.

[Elmetiacos]

15th Century knights' axes were not the same as the woodcutters' axes we're looking at! Anyway, new unit in 1.1 needs a revised name - Caturige Gaedann...and now I've stumbled across a furious debate between Wikipedia contributors over Lepontic, Cisalpine Gaulish, Noric and Ligurian... "bbl" as they say...

[Watchman]

:inquisitive: The difference is merely in ultimately rather minor design details. The relevant laws of physics are quite the same.

Plus I'd like to point out trees are kind of more robust in many ways than people, even ones in armour.

And we'd be talking more like 12th cent. knights, too.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Might I suggest a new thread to handle this "axe" issue? Then this thread can get back to it's overall Celtic focus and the celtic axe thread can more narrowly focus on said topic.

[cmacq]

Unless this tread is dead, I second this motion.

[Gododdin O'Ceallagh]

Sorry, used Dun Eideann/Din Eiden for Traprain Law (only its site name) which is a short distance to the east and was occupied as a large hill fort from the Late Bronze Age well into the Roman period. Seems to have been abandoned for some reason...
.

The Votadini/Goddodin were not the Caledones and the EB province in northern Britain covers the tribal areas of a lot people, including possibly the Goidelic precursor to Dal Riata in Argyll. The Caledones were later absorbed/developed into the Picts while the Goddodin remained a Brythonic kingdom. Place names in the different regions back this up with in the Lothians such Welsh sounding names as Cramond, Tranent, Traprain, Aberlady, Penicuik which form a background to later Goidelic and West Germanic names such as Inveresk, Dunbar, Dolphingstone, Elphinstone. Even Glasgow is now thought to be a Brythonic rather than Goidelic name now. I once heard there was some poetic reference in Welsh to southern Scotland as the "lost lands".

The Pictish language is unknown but by place names seems to have been Brythonic too, so the Caledones were Brythonic but the ecological differences between the Forth-Clyde rift valley and the uplands would mean different social structures probably existed, with the Caledones probably being slightly less advanced and less like the southern Britons than the Votadini and their neighbours living south of the Highland Boundary Fault. The Votadini lived on some of the best agricultural land in Britain.

Can't help with any of the Units etc, but would it make sense in EB2 to divide Scotland into a Caledonian province and a southern "British" province?

Cheers

G O'C

[MeinPanzer]

Still, I wouldn't necessarily prescribe to the notion that whether being able to establish if the use of axes as weapons during this period was nominal (which, imo anyway, appears likely) or not should outlaw their representation totally. Afterall, proving that an axe being perceived as a tool, admittedly, does not automatically equate definitively to it also not being considered a weapon.

No, and like it has been stated before in the thread, there are clearly some cases where in desperation or in times when fighters could find no other weapons, they did use axes. However, the issue in this case is whether it can be proven that they regularly employed the axe in combat and in reasonably large numbers, because to introduce a Celtic axe-warrior unit into the game would require having large units of them.

[cmacq]

The Votadini/Goddodin were not the Caledones and the EB province in northern Britain covers the tribal areas of a lot people, including possibly the Goidelic precursor to Dal Riata in Argyll. The Caledones were later absorbed/developed into the Picts while the Goddodin remained a Brythonic kingdom. Place names in the different regions back this up with in the Lothians such Welsh sounding names as Cramond, Tranent, Traprain, Aberlady, Penicuik which form a background to later Goidelic and West Germanic names such as Inveresk, Dunbar, Dolphingstone, Elphinstone. Even Glasgow is now thought to be a Brythonic rather than Goidelic name now. I once heard there was some poetic reference in Welsh to southern Scotland as the "lost lands".

The Pictish language is unknown but by place names seems to have been Brythonic too, so the Caledones were Brythonic but the ecological differences between the Forth-Clyde rift valley and the uplands would mean different social structures probably existed, with the Caledones probably being slightly less advanced and less like the southern Britons than the Votadini and their neighbours living south of the Highland Boundary Fault. The Votadini lived on some of the best agricultural land in Britain.

Can't help with any of the Units etc, but would it make sense in EB2 to divide Scotland into a Caledonian province and a southern "British" province?

Cheers

G O'C

I agree, but would also sperate the Western Isles, from the north and south in EB2, as well. However, not to draw too fine a point, but the EB time frame begins about 550 years before the use of the term Pict. We actually don't know the ethnic composition of Scotland in the 3rd century BC, and we don't know how the Roman wars and occupations of the south may have impacted it. Due to archaeological survey and excavation, what we do know, given the graphic representation in EB, is that the largest population centers were around Falkirk and Edinburgh.

[lobf]

The only concern I have is about axes being armour piercing; I don't accept that they go through non-rigid armour as well as spears do.

I certainly do.

[Elmetiacos]

I've joined the Continental Celtic group on Yahoo Groups... there's some serious Celtic scholars on that, as well as people I used to know from usenet and the IMBAS list years ago. Prepare for many of my suggestions to be thrown out as completely wrong... reading archives and looking at Lepontic just now... :book:

[blitzkrieg80]

Yahoo Groups don't have anything other than speculation, similar to wikipedia, you're better off visiting the Indo-European Studies department somewhere, such as the one at UCLA or similar.


This is more or less my final bit of tidying up - the mysterious -couw names on the map: -couw appears to be meaningless; I can't explain it. First we have Lugouw, with its capital Carrodunum, the modern Krakow in Poland. I don't know why the association with Lugh could have come from, unless it's LUGNU from the Graufenstein fragment, but the only major Celtic tribe in this region were the Cotini
you haven't heard of the Lugi? you mentioned them as if you've never read Tacitus... I admit their 'Celt'-icity is questionable, but still... it's as known as any of this stuff

[Elmetiacos]

No, there is some proper academic debate here. There are people like David Stifter who teaches Celtic at the University of Vienna - already, I've discovered you can't have a name in Gaulish or Brythonic that starts Sr- and next I hope to match up all those Gaulish patronymics properly. Of course, there are amateurs (like us) and a couple of weirdos and occasionally someone says something silly (the Takla Makan mummies wore tartan! They were Celts!) but there are people on there who have more expertise than me. Plus, the fact that it's "boring" Gaulish, Celtiberian and Lepontic being discussed, rather than Irish, keeps away a lot of the romantic, Enya-loving, manga faerie drawing, wiccan crowd...

I was reading Tacitus Germania only yesterday, but in the particular translation, the Lugians (who I'd heard of but for some reason I thought lived on the Baltic coast... I know why, actually, I'm thinking of the Rugians :no: ) are called the "Lygians" and I didn't make the jump. :shame: Anyway, aren't they Germanic or Slavonic? If you're going to have someone based in Carrodunon ("Chariot Fort") they need to be Celts - unless you want to move the capital and bring in the Lugians with a Germanic/proto-Slavonic name for the province?

Also - what are you talking about Tacitus, Celts and Germans for? This thread is about axes! :beam:

One conjectural Brythonic female name changed.

[cmacq]

The Lugz I call Balto-slav. Carrodunon can't be wagon-fort?

[Elmetiacos]

"Chariot Fort" is much cooler...

[blitzkrieg80]

No, there is some proper academic debate here. There are people like David Stifter who teaches Celtic at the University of Vienna - already, I've discovered you can't have a name in Gaulish or Brythonic that starts Sr- and next I hope to match up all those Gaulish patronymics properly. Of course, there are amateurs (like us) and a couple of weirdos and occasionally someone says something silly (the Takla Makan mummies wore tartan! They were Celts!) but there are people on there who have more expertise than me. Plus, the fact that it's "boring" Gaulish, Celtiberian and Lepontic being discussed, rather than Irish, keeps away a lot of the romantic, Enya-loving, manga faerie drawing, wiccan crowd...
that's an excellent point. romanticism is the point at which i find most unacceptable practices so anything that keeps it away... and I really enjoy Wagner, but seriously now, comparing Snorri Sturluson and Wagner one get's a distinctive impression of artistic liberty ~:) and I have doubts of the whole Volsung legend as being that integral to Germanic belief in the first place.

[cmacq]

For those following that don't know, Lepontic is the collection of Kelt dialects (many appear related to Gaulish) documented in Cisalpine Italy and Raetia that roughly date between the 7th and 1st centuries BC.

[Watchman]

Also - what are you talking about Tacitus, Celts and Germans for? This thread is about axes! :beam: :grin2:
Only if you insist...

I don't go looking for trouble (http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/im_the_u_n_undersecretary_your)... :cool2:

[cmacq]

like nancies?

[blitzkrieg80]

what about Cimiiformes?

[cmacq]

"Chariot Fort" is much cooler...

A laager, lager, leaguer or laer?

http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/chronology/thisday/1838-12-16.htm

[blitzkrieg80]

for no other reason than ax'in youse all sumthin:


"Ammianus Marcellinus uses the word carrago 'barricade of waggons or carts', made up of Lat. carrus 'waggon' together with Gmc. *hag- (cf. OHG hag 'enfencement'). That the inclusion of a Germanic loanword in this Latin compoud points back to Germanic military practice is suggested by a number of considerations. First, the passage in which the Latin historian uses the word refers to the conduct of Goths in a battle and, when quoting the word, he says that this is how the Goths themselves term their barricade. (Does this imply that we must reckon with a Germanic term for 'waggon', independent of Lat. carrus, rather than a Germanic-Latin compoud?) Secondly, the practice of grouping waggons as a protection for women and children during a battle is attested elsewhere for the Germani. Thirdly, the second element in Ammianus's compound occurs in a defensive function in OE bordhaga 'shield-wall', as in the wedge-formation on the battlefield. Despite the uncertainty of the first element there is every reason to accept the Germanic origin of the compoud used by Ammianus, as he expressly says" (DH Green 185). Language and History in the Early Germanic World

[Disciple of Tacitus]

I was reading Tacitus Germania only yesterday...
Also - what are you talking about Tacitus, Celts and Germans for? This thread is about axes! :beam:


Finally, someone is paying attention to my namesake. You know, there is a reason to this madness. ... oh cr@p, I said it ... I know, I know :no: ... this isn't madness ...

[cmacq]

This is Techno...

[Elmetiacos]

for no other reason than ax'in youse all sumthin:


"Ammianus Marcellinus uses the word carrago 'barricade of waggons or carts', made up of Lat. carrus 'waggon' together with Gmc. *hag- (cf. OHG hag 'enfencement'). That the inclusion of a Germanic loanword in this Latin compoud points back to Germanic military practice is suggested by a number of considerations...
But, of course, Carrus isn't Latin; it's a Gaulish loan word into Latin. Could it be that the Germans had borrowed the same word and carrago isn't a Latin-Germanic compound at all...?

[cmacq]

Given the association of early wagons, artifacts associated with same, and/or representations of wagons in Urnfield/Hallstatt cultural contexts, one would be inclined to go with a proto-Kelt and later Kelt loadword? Didn't I read somwplace that an early Norse word for a boat was 'Wave-Wagon.' Maybe it was from some Ingigh rune from England; ofer w&#230;g gew&#225;t, w&#230;n &#230;fter ran?

[Elmetiacos]

The controversial Lepontic (Celtic? Italic? Ligurian?) appears to die out just prior to the EB timeframe, so making it easier to decide what to call that new Helvetic spearman. Yet another variation on "Gaisoneides" would be dull, not to mention confusing. I'll put forward Lancianêtes ("Spear fighters") - another word for a spear or javelin c.f. Latin Lancea. It's good to see Caledonian pony riders brought in, but the Argyn Marca are again given fantasy armour to wear which never would have been. Marca would be the word for a mare rather than a rider; a better name for them would be Marcoges Caladonion.

[blitzkrieg80]

the Celts did not invent the wheel... nor chariots and wagons... all Indo-European peoples would easily have had a background in such. The steppe lends itself to horses in that way... the Celts were not Antlanteans either, nor the source of all culture is Europe. this does not lessen the sophistication and influence of La Tene / Halstatt, but they did not teach Europe how to walk upright either.

Celtic usage of *markos (mare) paralleled by Germanic adoption of a similar distinction against IE *ekuos (equine) seems to point to specific 'warhorse' usage, probably influenced by steppe warfare, but certainly a native word, unlike 'horse' which was directly from an Indo-Iranian lexicon. so my point is that it would be entirely appropriate ~:)

[edit]
Green, D. H.. Language and history in the early Germanic world. Cambridge University, 1998.

"Our second example [previous example Gaulish brāca 'breeches'] of a possible loan from Germanic into Celtic takes us in the same direction, since it concerns a word for 'horse'. The word in question has to be distinguished from that represented by Lat. equus. Although cognates of this word are found in Germanic and Celtic (e.g. OE eoh, OIr. ech) and although it is used in both in formation of personal name, its presence in Latin (and in other IE languages) makes us hesitate to assume a specific connection between the Germanic and Celtic forms. The position is different with the term which concerns us, for the word which survives in its feminine form (English 'mare', German Mähre) is attested only in the Germanic and Celtic (e.g. OHG marahscalc 'groom' [source of MnE 'marshal'], OIr. marc). Although cognates are unknown elsewhere in IE, the formation of animal names with a -g suffix suggests transmission through a language which underwent the sound-shift [First Sound Shift aka Grimm's Law] of g to k, which again it is safer to identify as Germanic rather than a largely unknown Thracian. What lies behind the adoption of this word (and it's possible association with brāca) is the differentiation suggested between it and equus: between two different breeds of horse meant for different purposes, equus as a draught-animal and *markos as a speedier one for riding better suited for combat than breeds hithero available in northern Europe. This again suggest early contact with horse-riding people of the steppes, Scythians or Sarmatians whose horses are described as small, but very fast and strong enough to carry the weight of an armoured rider" (Green 147-148).

"There are also words which were possibly adopted by the Goths only in the new conditions of southern Russia. Their need to adapt to the mode of life of mounter warriors explains why one example is the word for 'horse', even if it is not attested in the restricted lexis of Wulfila's bible, but rather in OHG (h)ross, OE hors, ON hors/hross. As a new import this word competed with a native word (OE eoh, ON jór, cognate with Lat. equus) because it denoted a new breed of horse for fighting on horseback. The loanword has parallels in Finnic, in the western and eastern branches, which in view of their later separation suggests an early loan into common Finnic for which Gothic cannot come into question. The origin of both the German and Finnic forms has been traced to Sarmatian (attested in Ossetian and some Caucasian languages which borrowed the word from the Alans). The Goths cannot have felt the need for such a loanword before they were forced to adapt to the empty expanses of the south-east. In this respect this word differs from trade words like 'hemp' and páida (and from another word for 'horse', OHG marah-, which found its way northwards earlier)" (Green 178-179).

Orel, Valdimir. A Handbook of Germanic Etymology. Brill, 2003.

PGmc *χrussan : ON hross 'horse', OE hors id., OFris hors, hars id., OS hros id., OHG hros, ros id. Borrowed from East Iranian, cf. Osset (υ)urs 'stallion' (Orel 189).

[Elmetiacos]

They did a lot of chariots, though... the point I'm trying to make isn't some weird Celtic nationalist one, it's just that if the carr- root is borrowed from Latin, it could as easily be borrowed from Gaulish, or not borrowed at all.

Another note: I had the wrong stem for the word for "Warrior" and so it's Cingetos, plural Cingeti (or Cingetoi for Britons and Galatians) so the names of three or four units have been fixed. I also discovered it's from a PIE root meaning "march" so it specifically means a footsoldier.

[blitzkrieg80]

Yeah, sorry if it seemed like I was responding to your comment which seemed to me spot on, but I was actually responding to cmacq that time ~:) since his comment seems to posit that wagon-culture is based upon Celts rather than the other way around, who certainly were at a cultural height with those in practice

[The Persian Cataphract]

the Celts did not invent the wheel... nor chariots and wagons... all Indo-European peoples would easily have had a background in such. The steppe lends itself to horses in that way... the Celts were not Antlanteans either, nor the source of all culture is Europe. this does not lessen the sophistication and influence of La Tene / Halstatt, but they did not teach Europe how to walk upright either.

Celtic usage of *markos (mare) paralleled by Germanic adoption of a similar distinction against equus (equine) seems to point to specific 'warhorse' usage, probably influenced by steppe warfare, but certainly a native word, unlike *hross (horse) which was directly from an Indo-Iranian lexicon. so my point is that it would be entirely appropriate ~:)

Actually, I'd like to elaborate a bit on this; The root for the latin "equus" may be derived from the Tocharian "yuk" and "yakwe". From here we begin to see the cognitive relations between the traditionally Indo-Iranian "As", "Assa", "Asva/Ashva", "Ashvaka" and finally the Iranian "Aspa". Proto-Indo-European (PIE) would have it at "ekwo" or "ekvo".

Tocharian A
yuk

Tocharian B
yakwe

Irish
each

Latin
equus

Ancient Greek
h&#237;ppos

Vedic Sanskrit
&#225;śva

Proto-Indo-European
eḱwo

Yeah, I had to copy-paste some of this, linguistics can be quite anal when it comes to precision. Today's qualification of the proper horse family (Or in all reality domesticated horses) is equus caballus, which indeed does tell us of the nominative root of "cavalry". Hross however to my knowledge appears to be... Old Norse? I don't know, but you might want to check this out, it's a pretty interesting read:

http://books.google.se/books?id=UnmxrfJYs9AC&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=hross+indo-iranian&source=web&ots=z5sRtMunSm&sig=cLIyAu7ifZvIhZ0SeSLznsz1gHM&hl=sv

[blitzkrieg80]

TPC, check my quotes which i was editting in as you posted ~:) it seems to agree pretty closely. I don't think there is any evidence that the word for 'equine' is derived from (but instead cognate to) that of the Tocharians. Although they could easily have had the closest derived form from the same base word. PIE certainly cannot be monopolized by Iranians just like it cannot be so under a pan-Celtic or Germanic identity. If there is clear evidence of loanword traffic, then such a claim can be possible, otherwise off-shoots are just that and not 'originators'.

I used those quotes because the logic is sound, imo, and i like them (rather than being intrinsic or primary source evidence)... I changed the form of horse and equine in my statment which you quoted and responded to (interesting link) because I was referring to it as a placehold, I tend to post and edit rather than lose my text in an accidental browser refresh... that has unfortunately happened too many times to recount.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Nah, it's just a perspective on things, nothing arbitrary; Tocharian, especially Tocharian A, is usually overlooked when it comes to binding together the Western branchings of the Indo-European languages, vis-a-vis the Indo-Iranian and Indo-Aryan languages to the East, so I felt the need to bring it up anyways as a documented item that we may theorize to be the closest existing cognate to a root term. When we are forced to go as far back as using academical constructs such as PIE in order to draw a sketchy but otherwise necessary red line to illustrate the lingual chain of events. PIE alone has at least five so-called "Urheimat" theories so far spaced out from each other it all becomes a gigantic mess of technicalities. But yeah, I see your edits now, and it looks good to me :2thumbsup:

[blitzkrieg80]

well I definitely like to mention the steppe as much as possible for that very reason, totally underestimated and possibly most influencial culture zone, period. even as a 'German boy.' ~;p I would be mentioning Celts more often if everybody didn't have a 'reawakening' hertiage interest already, Enya-like fetish, seen best in those tribal tatoos :inquisitive: [Enya is a good artist for that sort of thing btw, just a good example of Romanticism mentioned accurately by Elmetiacos]. Anyways, by all means, rather than off-topic axes, we should talk about Tocharians, who deserve focus at any point in time or conversation :grin:

btw, they may call them theories, but the Indo-Europeans clearly came from the steppe (N. of the Caucaus)... The Scythian culture zone and the Eurasian steppe shows us how fluid the steppe is/has been. I don't care if people think I'm wrong, because the linguistic evidence is clearer than any paltry archaeology in Anatolia and logic is a big factor - why on Earth would a mass of people leave Anatolia (implying weakeness from pop./soc. pressure), Anatolia is quite rich and nicely placed territory compared to the North. so they were forced out and then they run around in the steppe and become uber-conquistadors then all of a sudden go back, but the long way? that's so backward. :wall: methinks that those peoples living on the fringes away from pop. pressure, developed a culture that became powerful enough that when they did return to civilization (not from Anatolia but from even more primordial beginnings) that their culture became dominant.

have i gone enough off-topic yet?

[cmacq]

What would Joe Salmons say? And whats this about Anatolia and whats a Enya-like fetish? I've been reading some of, 'How (non-)Indo-European is the Germanic Lexicon?
… And what does that mean?' so I must have missed a few posts?

Just checked, and no I didn't? Are you talking about the Turks?

[Elmetiacos]

I hope these are the final 1.1 unit renamings:
Dunaminica Kinketoi Dunum ("Warriors of the Forts")
clona Gosnasio Alioneizes ("Secondary Fighters")

[Sarcasm]

Willco. Only cause you say so.

[russia almighty]

Sarcasm, nothing greater than a big **** you.

[blitzkrieg80]

Given the association of early wagons, artifacts associated with same, and/or representations of wagons in Urnfield/Hallstatt cultural contexts, one would be inclined to go with a proto-Kelt and later Kelt loadword? Didn't I read somwplace that an early Norse word for a boat was 'Wave-Wagon.' Maybe it was from some Ingigh rune from England; ofer w&#230;g gew&#225;t, w&#230;n &#230;fter ran?
Cmacq, your claim that Germanic has a foreign lexicon at its base, nonetheless one of Finno-Ugric origin (sorry, this is from another thread i believe) which shows quite the opposite in loanword traffic (Germanic is borrowed into Finnish, at a much higher degree and later timeline) has very little substance. For instance, there is no reason to think every word in Germanic is borrowed simply because other cultures have similar usage: "way" has so many cognates and derivative words based on early roots that I will not even list them all unless you have some contradictory evidence to provide. The word 'horse' from 'way' comes from *weganan (Gothic wigan, ON vega, OE wegan, OFris wega, OS wegan, OHG wegan), connected to Sanskrit v&#225;hati 'to drive, to ride', Avestan vazenti, Latin uehō 'to bear, to carry' and the list goes on. Nothing Celtic, nonetheless Proto-Celtic about it either.

as to your question about Proto-Turks, the same could go for Proto-Bolgars and the like and I must say they should certainly not be underestimated or forgotton but there is so little information on them there is no chance for anything but speculation. Indo-Europeans would definitely be no pure breed and the many interesting off-shoots are probably as much due to integration with non-Indo-European populations as much as linguistic mutation. Germanic is not unique in this and is not any moreso a product of such. the transformations from Indo-European to Germanic follow clear Indo-European-based rules, morphology/phonology, ect.

[cmacq]

Slow down man, I've no idea what this is all about. Have you read what you have been writing? I didn't claim that Germanic has a foreign lexicon at its base. I just put up the title of a paper; 'How (non-)Indo-European is the Germanic Lexicon? … And what does that mean?' by Joseph Salmons, UW-Madison. I just finished reading it. You wrote about 'Anatolia, steppe and become uber-conquistadors,' and 'then all of a sudden go back;' I thought you're somehow referring to the Turks not proto-Turks? Also, I'm not sure what the stuffs about the words 'wagon' or 'horse' is about either? This seems to have started over E. saying Carrodunon=Chariot Fort, and me 'can't this mean wagon-fort,' and so on? And, Finno-Ugric (used as a linguistic construct associated w/IE as opposed to Finno-Permic, Ugric, and Samoyedic), not Finnish, I think this is from another tread altogether?

Is everything OK?

[Sarcasm]

Sarcasm, nothing greater than a big **** you.

He's not even respecting the original meaning on some of the names, and he claims he knows very little of celtiberian. Am I supposed to take his word for it? At least give me something to work from.

[russia almighty]

Sarcasm.... you did what I would have said more rudely if I were in your celtic boots.

[Urnamma]

He's not even respecting the original meaning on some of the names, and he claims he knows very little of celtiberian. Am I supposed to take his word for it? At least give me something to work from.

It must be something with people that think they know better about celtic matters, that they never post sources.

[Elmetiacos]

It must be something with people that think they know better about celtic matters, that they never post sources.
I've been careful to post readily available sources. Am I expected to re-post them every time I say anything? d > z shift in Celtiberian can be checked with Carlos Jordán Cólera's article, as can the Celtiberian -um dative plural as against Gaulish -on. Feel free to suggest an alternative if you want one; I'm only here to point people in the right direction. I have to welcome this conversion to concern for scholarship, however; not so long ago, you were happy to accept such definitive sources as "there is reference to a king much later, who lived around the time, and attempted to expand his lands and engage in trade" or patently fake claims that hammers had been found Kilrathmurray adjacent to Ballykane Hill, a site which actually contained nothing but slag from a disused ironworks, as you could have discovered from a couple of mouse clicks.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Ok. This has been a civilized and insightful thread up to now and will continue to be so. Try to stay on topic and overall - be civil. We are all here because we love EB and we love history. Always keep that in mind.

[Elmetiacos]

:bow:
Gaulish surnames - a small revision.
On the Continental Celtic group, it was suggested that the various patronymic suffixes aren't dependant on the stem of the name, but that they all have slightly different meanings. -ios (and variant -eos) is the straightforward one, -iknos a diminutive possibly used for children, and -iacos a family name like an Irish &#211;. This would mean that -iacos is the one to use if you want the rulers all to keep the same surname.
A revised list:
Abucatios Acutiacos Alaucios Anniciacos Atectorigios Cantorigios Cattiacos Cisiambios Contoutios Diasulios Ducomariacos Durnacios Elcesovigios Ep&#234;nios Exobniacos Maupennios Orcetirigios Togirigios Turoniacos Acisiacos Alcuiniacos Anarevisiacos Andecamulios Aneuniacos Aricaniacos Bellatorigios Blandoviceos Bonnorigios Caliodubnios Camulogenios Cassitaliacos Catumoceos Corisiacos Dagorigios Dumnomotios Escanecotios Esopnios Ivorigios Latumarios Litumarios Macloniacos Nantonios Ogrigenios Orgetorigios Rextugeniacos Rianorigios Samoriciacos Sedagisamios Segomarios Sintorigios Sosimiliacios Tabetiscios Tasciacios Tincorigios T&#244;tanorigios Vebrumarios Veretomarios Vonatorigios

[paullus]

try and give this a bump...

any thoughts on plaits? did celts plait their hair in the 3c bc? did they do it in battle, or only when entertaining dinner guests or likewise being entertained? did only certain celts (either by social rank or locale) use plaits?

[Elmetiacos]

This thread is coming to an end. I'm working to some extent on a revised Celtic voicemod, but I don't really think of this as high priority. As a generic barbarian sound, the current one may be nonsense but it sort of sounds good even though it doesn't mean anything. A voicemod also contains actual sentences and theories as to how they might be spoken, so it's more work than just finding personal names or translating names for soldiers.

In another bit of mopping up in the meantime, the fake cycles were removed in 1.1 but there are a few lingering pieces of dubious provenance, as follows:
Tyn fian dwma fiatua!
{trans_81}
I am a freeman in a free state!
{quoted_82}
Last words of Dumnorix. Refused to be a hostage, and killed by Julius Caesar's men
If indeed Dumnorix said this ('often exlaiming that he was free and the subject of a free state') in Gaulish it would have been more like:
viros reidios immi agos toutios vlatas reidias
This is my reconstruction, apart from immi, agos and toutios, which are attested on inscriptions in Gaul. All the same, I think it might be better just to use English or Latin.

{quote_83}
Timidios di Albhae Bren!
{trans_84}
For the true king of Britain!
{quoted_85}
Rallying cry of the Catuvellaunians/Casse
{quote_86}
This is pure fantasy. Bren or Brenin is a modern Welsh word for a king derived from Brythonic *brigantin- and wouldn't have been in use at the time. di is presumably a distortion of Irish d&#233; meaning 'from' or 'of' and Albhae looks like a distortion of the Gaelic word from Britain. timidios has me baffled. I won't try a translation because I'm fairly sure nothing like this Arthurian formula was ever said by the Cassi or Catuvellauni. Instead, what about the words of Caratacus, brought to Rome as a prisoner: 'I had men and horses, arms and wealth. What wonder if I parted with them reluctantly? If you Romans choose to lord it over the world, does it follow that the world is to accept slavery?'

Toutava, marae, da augu, tosgo, mavi Vergalla!
{trans_133}
For tribe, family, and honor, forward, sons of Great Gaul!
{quoted_134}
Inscription on a statue of Dis, the mythic founder of Gaul
{quote_135}
"Dis" isn't the legendary founder of Gaul; this probably came from statues of a Gaulish deity whose Latin name is Dis Pater. The Gaulish has bits of right in a sea of wrong. It might be more like *T&#244;ten, cenetlon agos ??? map&#251;s Maglogalaton... not that it's a genuine quotation.

Catuvellaunorix bathbanay acorrius cagoran
{trans_142}
King of the Catuvellauni, I am dead. I hope it was enough
{quoted_143}
Inscription on the tomb of an ancient British royal guard, presumably the guard's last words
{quote_144}
This would be big news if such a discovery had actually been made. Of course, it never was. Catuvellaunorix is correct, too... the rest of it is completely made up and should be something vaguely like Marvos immi. Laveros buetio velor? Boudica's 'Win this battle or perish; that is what I, a woman, shall do.' is marginally outside the EB time frame but still a good replacement.

Behold the striking hammer of justice. Enemies of my people, know my name and woe
{quoted_168}
Inscription on figurines of Sucellos
{quote_169}
Unfortunately, Sucellos uses his hammer to crush grapes, not enemies; he's the patron deity of wine making. There would never be any such inscription.

Agomonos ta Caballos ta Terc assubio
{trans_172}
Agomonos and Caballos and Terc were here
{quoted_173}
Gallic inscription in Egypt
{quote_174}
In all the sources, books or web links, I've looked up in my life, ever, or in the course of research for this thread, I've never seen any reference to Gaulish inscriptions in Egypt; it would again be big news if it existed, which it doesn't. The word ta means "and" in Romany, but not in Gaulish; Gaulish had two words which might translate as "and" - agos and eti. Assubio makes no sense at all. This quotation would be a bit dull even if it were authentic...:laugh4:

[Elmetiacos]

try and give this a bump...

any thoughts on plaits? did celts plait their hair in the 3c bc? did they do it in battle, or only when entertaining dinner guests or likewise being entertained? did only certain celts (either by social rank or locale) use plaits?
I have to admit that Celtic hairstyles aren't anything that I know much about, other than the reputed practice of using some sort of white wash (possibly lime, but apparently that hurts and you eventually go bald) and drawing their hair into spikes.

[cmacq]

A bit later in time, yet how about...

"By the gods of my nation, he whom contests with me, shall lose his head."

Cu Chulainn, from Bricriu's Banquete, or 'The Feast of the One with the Poison Tongue.'

"Stay, as a war of weapons will not be held here; this shall be a war of words."

Sencha, from Bricriu's Banquete, or 'The Feast of the One with the Poison Tongue.'

Cu Chulainn, to provoke...
"Everyone has seen your clumsy horses lurch the straightaway and the turn, as your over-burdened chariot lumbers on behind; wherever your big cart runs both wheels dig to kick turf here and there, so for a year your rutty path can be followed easily by Ulster's men of war."

"Indeed pity but don't blame me, for I'm more than quick to wade through Ulster's men of war, and face a storm of spears; nor pretend you're restrained by trees or narrows, as each noble champion drives a chariot, and not a single hero has tried to race their cart past me."
Loegaire, in responce...

both from Bricriu's Banquete, or 'The Feast of the One with the Poison Tongue.'

[cmacq]

In all the sources, books or web links, I've looked up in my life, ever, or in the course of research for this thread, I've never seen any reference to Gaulish inscriptions in Egypt; it would again be big news if it existed, which it doesn't. The word ta means "and" in Romany, but not in Gaulish; Gaulish had two words which might translate as "and" - agos and eti. Assubio makes no sense at all. This quotation would be a bit dull even if it were authentic...:laugh4:


About seven years ago, I think I remember reading something about a similar inscription found in Egypt; let me see if I can find it??

[abou]

In all the sources, books or web links, I've looked up in my life, ever, or in the course of research for this thread, I've never seen any reference to Gaulish inscriptions in Egypt; it would again be big news if it existed, which it doesn't. The word ta means "and" in Romany, but not in Gaulish; Gaulish had two words which might translate as "and" - agos and eti. Assubio makes no sense at all. This quotation would be a bit dull even if it were authentic...:laugh4:
Have you tried doing a search for Galatian instead of Gaulish?

[cmacq]

Found it...

Freeman, P., 2001 The Galatian Language. A Comprehensive Survey of the Language of the Ancient Celts in Greco-Roman Asia Minor.


Right, it does say Galatian mercenaries, in Egypt around 185 BC. Good thing I cleaned my study yesterday. However, I remember seeing it somewhere else, as well. However, this ia actually about Galatian mercenaries (known by their names) writing, a Greek inscription (not Gaulish or Galatian), in Egypt. I think, someone messed up.

[Elmetiacos]

Aha - I've found it; an inscription on a temple wall telling how some mercenaries caught a fox or a jackal. The inscripton is in Greek as are their names, but they describe themselves as Galatians. That explains why I'd not heard of it.

[Elmetiacos]

A bit later in time, yet how about...

"By the gods of my nation, he whom contests with me, shall forfeit his head."

Cu Chulainn, from Bricriu's Banquete, or 'The Feast of the One with the Poison Tongue.''
My favourite Cu Chulainn quote is, "I care not that I live for a single day, provided my fame endures."

[cmacq]

T&#225;in B&#243; C&#250;alnge

Perfect..


for EB, I think.

[Watchman]

Aha - I've found it; an inscription on a temple wall telling how some mercenaries caught a fox or a jackal. The inscripton is in Greek as are their names, but they describe themselves as Galatians. That explains why I'd not heard of it.On a completely off-topic note, I find it very amusing how timeless the whole scenario is: some soldiers bag a critter, and write a graffiti about it on a nearby wall - to the benefit of scholars over two millenia later. :beam:
Guess some things don't change much.

[cmacq]

Actually, if one may make a case for inclusion?

Although written down much later, the Lebor Gab&#225;la &#201;renn says that the T&#225;in B&#243; C&#250;ailnge and the birth and death of C&#250;chulainn date to the reign of Conaire Mor. In turn, it says this king was a contemporary of Augustus, which would be just within the EB time frame, yes or no? If the Ulster Cycle was made available to EB, there is a very large number of very good quotes, to be had.

[lobf]

This thread is coming to an end. I'm working to some extent on a revised Celtic voicemod, but I don't really think of this as high priority. As a generic barbarian sound, the current one may be nonsense but it sort of sounds good even though it doesn't mean anything. A voicemod also contains actual sentences and theories as to how they might be spoken, so it's more work than just finding personal names or translating names for soldiers.

In another bit of mopping up in the meantime, the fake cycles were removed in 1.1 but there are a few lingering pieces of dubious provenance, as follows:
Tyn fian dwma fiatua!
{trans_81}
I am a freeman in a free state!
{quoted_82}
Last words of Dumnorix. Refused to be a hostage, and killed by Julius Caesar's men
If indeed Dumnorix said this ('often exlaiming that he was free and the subject of a free state') in Gaulish it would have been more like:
viros reidios immi agos toutios vlatas reidias
This is my reconstruction, apart from immi, agos and toutios, which are attested on inscriptions in Gaul. All the same, I think it might be better just to use English or Latin.

{quote_83}
Timidios di Albhae Bren!
{trans_84}
For the true king of Britain!
{quoted_85}
Rallying cry of the Catuvellaunians/Casse
{quote_86}
This is pure fantasy. Bren or Brenin is a modern Welsh word for a king derived from Brythonic *brigantin- and wouldn't have been in use at the time. di is presumably a distortion of Irish d&#233; meaning 'from' or 'of' and Albhae looks like a distortion of the Gaelic word from Britain. timidios has me baffled. I won't try a translation because I'm fairly sure nothing like this Arthurian formula was ever said by the Cassi or Catuvellauni. Instead, what about the words of Caratacus, brought to Rome as a prisoner: 'I had men and horses, arms and wealth. What wonder if I parted with them reluctantly? If you Romans choose to lord it over the world, does it follow that the world is to accept slavery?'

Toutava, marae, da augu, tosgo, mavi Vergalla!
{trans_133}
For tribe, family, and honor, forward, sons of Great Gaul!
{quoted_134}
Inscription on a statue of Dis, the mythic founder of Gaul
{quote_135}
"Dis" isn't the legendary founder of Gaul; this probably came from statues of a Gaulish deity whose Latin name is Dis Pater. The Gaulish has bits of right in a sea of wrong. It might be more like *T&#244;ten, cenetlon agos ??? map&#251;s Maglogalaton... not that it's a genuine quotation.

Catuvellaunorix bathbanay acorrius cagoran
{trans_142}
King of the Catuvellauni, I am dead. I hope it was enough
{quoted_143}
Inscription on the tomb of an ancient British royal guard, presumably the guard's last words
{quote_144}
This would be big news if such a discovery had actually been made. Of course, it never was. Catuvellaunorix is correct, too... the rest of it is completely made up and should be something vaguely like Marvos immi. Laveros buetio velor? Boudica's 'Win this battle or perish; that is what I, a woman, shall do.' is marginally outside the EB time frame but still a good replacement.

Behold the striking hammer of justice. Enemies of my people, know my name and woe
{quoted_168}
Inscription on figurines of Sucellos
{quote_169}
Unfortunately, Sucellos uses his hammer to crush grapes, not enemies; he's the patron deity of wine making. There would never be any such inscription.

Agomonos ta Caballos ta Terc assubio
{trans_172}
Agomonos and Caballos and Terc were here
{quoted_173}
Gallic inscription in Egypt
{quote_174}
In all the sources, books or web links, I've looked up in my life, ever, or in the course of research for this thread, I've never seen any reference to Gaulish inscriptions in Egypt; it would again be big news if it existed, which it doesn't. The word ta means "and" in Romany, but not in Gaulish; Gaulish had two words which might translate as "and" - agos and eti. Assubio makes no sense at all. This quotation would be a bit dull even if it were authentic...:laugh4:

:dizzy2:

The red part cracked me up, though.

[cmacq]

try and give this a bump...

any thoughts on plaits? did celts plait their hair in the 3c bc? did they do it in battle, or only when entertaining dinner guests or likewise being entertained? did only certain celts (either by social rank or locale) use plaits?

Not really sure I understand the question, are you asking about the Suebian Knot?

[Watchman]

"Patron of winemaking" ? Didn't the Celts import their wine from the Med though ? IIRC Roman merchants were at times amazed at the going rate of even one amphora...

[cmacq]

Perhaps, the need to import was all due, to a mighty powerful thirst?

[paullus]

nah not the suebian knot, the braided plaits worn off the side or top of the head, usually along with a lot of long hair. its in lots of pictures of celts, but i'm not sure i've ever seen the braided plait in any ancient depictions of celts. so i was wondering if anyone who worked more directly with them might know a bit more about the who, when, where of braided plaits.

[Redshank]

"Patron of winemaking" ? Didn't the Celts import their wine from the Med though ? IIRC Roman merchants were at times amazed at the going rate of even one amphora...



Yes, at first, but contact with Rome eventually led to cultivation of grapes (and olives oddly enough) in the Po Valley & the South of France ; proven by wine presses found near Provence.


( http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/arcnat/entremont/en/index2.html - Click on Artisans & Farmers and then Agriculture. )

[Elmetiacos]

Yes, at first, but contact with Rome eventually led to cultivation of grapes (and olives oddly enough) in the Po Valley & the South of France ; proven by wine presses found near Provence.

Sucellos and his partner Nantosuelta are definitely associated with wine; both are depicted with barrels and vats, sometimes pouring liquids out of vessels, sometimes holding bunches of grapes. Sucellos' hammer is more of a rounded wooden mallet, not at all like a weapon.

http://rv.mondespersistants.com/images_art/1071254833.jpg

[cmacq]

nah not the suebian knot, the braided plaits worn off the side or top of the head, usually along with a lot of long hair. its in lots of pictures of celts, but i'm not sure i've ever seen the braided plait in any ancient depictions of celts. so i was wondering if anyone who worked more directly with them might know a bit more about the who, when, where of braided plaits.

Right, I've done a search and can't find this feature associated with any ancient group recorded as Celt. However, this type of head dressing was indeed documented among ancient Deutschesque speakers? Now, during the early Medieval Period the plait, as an artistic motif, was very commonly found in Ireland, Scotland, Saxon England, and Scandinavia. Still, in this setting I'm not sure it was used as a head dressing, and technically I'm not at all positive one would call these cultural groupings Celt, as the term was initially used.

[Elmetiacos]

Towards a Voicemod Revision

This is my final offering, I think. It's a copy of an old post on the Celtic voicemod with Gaulish replacing the current version. The current vocalisations are in grey. At the end is a possible to probable pronunciation guide for an English speaker. The Gaulish is in italics. If the phrasing is unusual or contains something new I've added a translation at the end. I used to think -atu and -antu were imperatives in Gaulish, but now this has been corrected - see comments below! Many other words are nouns in the dative, because the troops are moving into a particular formation.

General - Group State (Uses General's voice, clear annunciation, rythmic)
create group = LOK-en, o-MOS! – LOK-en, im-US-os! – Oond! x3 (very fast) Slouge! slow-geh
dismiss group = LOK-en, nee-o-mos-HA! darnetis! darr-NETT-iss
drop equipment = Nee-pow-no-HA! – Pow-no-am-nee-HA! Cinget&#251;s, druxtetis! Keen-GET-oose, drrookh-TEH-tiss
cavalry, first three lines = Ep-OS, tro nan-EE-dum! Cintos, Allios, Tritos Epos Keen toce, ally oce, trree toce eppoce
cavalry screen = Ep-OS, frun-OON! Ambitute! Am-bee TOO-teh
column formation = LOK-en, eg-LEE-hum-ah! Slougu Vedilon! Slow-goo wheddy-lone ("departing host")
double line = LOK-en, doo-eg-LAN! Dua n&#234;&#240;! Doo-a nates
infantry, first three lines = NEE-tom, tro nan-EE-dum! Cintos, allios, tritos! keen toce, ally oce, trree toce ("1st, 2nd, 3rd")
missile-troops/skirmishers, first three lines = Am-BOO, tro nan-EE-dum! Cintos, allios, tritos! keen toce, ally oce, trree toce
single line = LOK-en, eg-LAN! Nagrondu! na GRRON-doo
sorted double line = LOK-en, doo-eg-LAN prop-OS! Esacogrondobo! ess-ah-koe-grrond-oboe
sorted single line = LOK-en, eg-LAN prop-OS! Esacogrondu! ess-ah-koe-grron-doo ("salmon ridge")
units, attack! = Am-EE-no, GAL-ah! - LOK-en, am-EE-no! - Bazb, KELT-oy! Cato! KAH-toe : Boude! BOH-deh
units, charge! = Hee-BO-na-tay! - Bazb! x3 (very fast) – Am-OO-not, LOK-en! Rextu! Rekh-too
units, halt! = AR-ma! - DEE-seet! – HAR-olt! Sedietis! seddy EH-tiss
missiles, attack! = Am-BOO, am-EE-no! Lancetis! lan-KEH-tiss
missiles, attack quickly! = Am-BOO, am-EE-no haz-RA! Rextu! Tabetis! rekh-too tab-EH-tiss
units, move = LOK-en, ab-EE-do! - GAL-ah, AB-an! Itamo! it-AH-moe
move quickly = LOK-en, ab-EE-do haz-RA! - GAL-ah, AB-an haz-RA! - KELT-oy, am-RO haz-RA! Retetis! rret-EH-tiss
rally: come back cowards! = An-TOO sat BAK-or! - GAL-ah! U-ban! X3 Cinget&#251;s dr&#244;tus! Nasria! Keen-GET-oose droh-tuss! Nass-rria ("Brave warriors! O shame!")
retreat = Fay-OO, LOK-en! – GAL-ah, roy-TAM-bor! Magessi tuande! ma guessy too-AND-eh ("come you from the field")
group select (units!) = ER-oo! – NEE-tom day GAL-ah! Corie! koh-rree-eh
group select (cavalry) = Ep-OS! Marcage! marrk AGG-eh
select engines = Mak-AN-na! Ageti&#251;s! ah-get-EE-oose! ("engines" - (not my) neologism)
group select infantry = NEE-tom! N&#234;d&#234; neh-deh
group select missiles = Am-BOS! N&#234;d&#234; neh-deh
cantabrian circle off (standard formation) = Ep-OS, fal-NOM-os! Adesentis! Addeh-sentis ("prepare again" - generic command for a few "offs" below)
cantabrian circle on = Ep-OS, en-KIRK-al-os! Celcintiu! kell-kinty-oo ("to the ?circuit")
fire at will off (cease fire) = Ab-STON-an, am-BOO! Adesantu! Addeh-santoo
fire at will on = Am-BOO, fant-fahm-GO! Tabontis! tab-ON-tiss
flaming off = Nee-flan-HA, am-BOO! Cingedie, desbadetis! keen-ghed-yeh, dess-bad-EH-tiss
flaming on = Flan, am-BOO! Condontis! cone DOHN tiss
loose formation = RE-clan-do! Satiai! satty-aye
close formation = KAY-clan-do! P&#234;slatu! Peh-slattoo
guard off = Off-EE-nayt, LOK-en! – LOK-en, ne-ROYM-ha! Adesentis! Addeh-sentis
guard on = LOK-en, roym! Anegetis! anneg eh-tiss
phalanx off = Nee-guy-NO-bar-ee-ha Adesentis! Addeh-sentiss
phalanx on = Guy-NO-bar-ee C&#244;glu G&#234;son koh-glue geh-sonn
skirmish off = Ne-am-BOO-ek-ta-ha Adesentis! Addeh-sentiss
skirmish on = Am-BOO-ek-ta Bitaminis buet-id bee-ta-MEEN-eece boo-ett-eed ("May it be a swarm of bees"... also name of a unit; do I have too many bees here?)
testudo off = SKAM-bah! Adesentis! Addeh-sentiss
testudo on = SKAM-hee-dan-en! Bliscon desentis bliss cone dess-EN-tiss ("prepare shell")
warcry off = Nee-ay-OL-oh-ha! Adesentis! Addeh-sentiss
warcry on = Ay-OL-oh! x3 Iolucus! yo luke uss [is this still used?]
wedge off = Ed-EK-um! Adesentis! addeh-sentiss
wedge on = Ed-EK-op-os! Cestai! kest aye

Individual (Uses 'casual' voice, treat hyphens only as guides to where the syllables are)
celebrate - victory is ours = An-NO-bar-ee-tay! x3 - GAL-ah ek-ROO-mah TOO-tat-os! - YA-mo! x3 - (Unintelligible singing) Segos tovonoxtion! Say-goss toe whoe nokh-tee-own ("Triumph of gods and men")
charge = (Unintelligible roar/shout) - WOH-loh-loh! x3 (drag out the final 'loh') - Ay-EE bazb! (drag out the 'ee') Retu! rret-ooooooh!
confirm = Esh-AH, may rix! – Esh-AH, may GOB-rim! – AG-wee! S&#244;! so : S&#244; bietu so bee-eh-too
retreat = FAR-oom! x3 - Ell-OK-an-am! x3 Vai! why!
taunts = YA-toh! - May too DAN-em bazb! - ANG-her mom! Attivire! atty-whee-rreh! ("Cowards!") Scrisu-in-mi! skriss-oo-in-mee ("I spit on him!") Dipennu-mi-io velor! dee-pen-OO-mee yo whellorr ("I want to cut off some heads!")

Unit (Uses 'casual' voice, treat hyphens only as guides to where the syllables are)
attack = Am-EE-no! Cato! KAH-toe
attack fast = Bazb! x3 - Am-EE-no, haz-RA! Cogo! Cato! ko-go! KAH-toe
x-completed orders = May rix, am-NEE-oo-koo! - May GOB-rim, am-NEE-at-oo! S&#244; declam-so, tigerne. so deck lam-so tee-gairr-neh ("So we have fixed it, my lord"??)
x-error = NEE-ha, may rix, ess ne-POS-hal-ah-ha! Ne-s beru nace berroo
x-generic = Rix? – GOB-rim? – ROO-rem? Raime? rye meh? : Tigerne? tee-GHER-neh? : Buet pe? boo ett peh?
halt = Ne-AM-bla-ha! – Seert! Sedos-nis SAY-dose neice
ladder attack (not close to the wall yet) = Ag-nom-NEE-mah - Sha-EM-bah Baramu bah-RAH-moo
ladder drop = ER-om SKAL-hay Druxtu drookh-too
ladder lift up (near the walls, about to attack) = Lev-am-TEE-os Vo! Vo! woe! woe!
ladder use (to "seize upon", not to attack with) = Pow-NO-am SKAL-hay Regetu regg-ett-oo
missile aim = Roh-HEM! ospatu! oh-SPAH-too ("eye" made into a verb)
missile fire = Ee-OM-ay, am-BOO! R&#234;ti'! REH-ti ("[stones/arrows etc.] free")
missile move into range = Am-BOO, as-EMB-lah! - Am-BOO, ban! Cusate koo-sah-teh
missile move into range quickly = Am-BOO, as-EMB-lah haz-RA! - Am-BOO, ban haz-RA! Cusate! koo-sah-teh
missile ready = Ash-EE! Desantlos... deh-SANT-loce...
move = Ab-EE-do! – AB-an! Retamo! rrett-a-mo!
move quickly = Ab-EE-do haz-RA! - AB-an haz-RA! - FAR-oom! Retamo! rret-a-mo
rally = U-ban, may KIM-ros! x3 Comrogi! kom-rogue-ee
ram attack (when ram is not yet close to the wall) = Krum-BA-ram, am-EE-no barsamo! barr-sammo
ram drop = Ne-pow-NO-am-ha krum-BA-ram B&#251;stin druxtu BOO-stin drookh-too
x-ramming = Krum-BA-na Brist! Brist! Brist! (shortened form of "break" as a sort of chant...)
ram start (when ram is already below the wall, about to attack) = Krum-BA-taw-am! x3 Darnaitos Buetid! darr-night-oce boo-ett-id ("it should be broken up!")
ram use (to "man", not to attack with) = Pow-NO-am krum-BA! Crannos! krannose
retreat = REE-sed! - FAR-oom! x3 Comretu-mi! comb-rett-oo-mee ("I run with you")
siegetower attack = Tur, am-EE-no! Celeta! Ke-LET-ah (*kel-et- "that which towers above")
siegetower drop = Ne-pow-NO-am-ha tur! Celetai! Keh-LET-aye
siegetower enter = As-KEND-an tur! Celetia! Keh-let-EE-a
siegetower use/fill (to "man", not climb into) = Pow-NO-am tur! Regetu! rregg-ETT-oo
tunnel dig = Saff Cl&#244;detis kloh-DEH-tiss
tunnel exit = Ne-SAFF-ha exs, exs! ekhs, ekhs
tunnel use (only to fill it up, not yet attacking) = Ar-ROO-bahr saff-TOON Cl&#244;detis kloh-DEH-tiss
x-under attack = En-KUR-mos! - Al-FAT-od-os! N&#226;mantes! NAH-man-tess

Unit State (Uses 'casual' voice, treat hyphens only as guides to where the syllables are)
*cantabrian circle off (standard formation) = Fal-NOM-os-an! Lavero'*. La-wherr-oh
*cantabrian circle on = En-KIRK-al-os-an! Celcinte. Kel-KIN-teh
*fire at will off (cease fire) = Ne-FAHM-en-ha-an! Tabotin desamo. ta-BOH-teen dess-AH-mo
*fire at will on = Fant-FAHM-go-an! Tabos-nis tabbose-neice
*flaming off = Nee-FLAN-ha-an! Desbados. dess-BAH-doce
*flaming on = FLAN-an! Loscetici. Loce-keh-TEEK-ee
*loose formation = RE-clan-do-an! L&#244;bionni. LOH-bee-OH-nee (*leu-bw-ijo- "become loose"?)
*close formation = KAY-clan-do-an! P&#234;slati. PEH-SLAH-tee
*guard off = Off-EE-nayt-an! – Ne-ROYM-ha-an! N&#234;to. NEH-toe
*guard on = ROYM-an! Anegam-nis. Ann-EGG-am-niss
*phalanx off = Nee-guy-no-bar-EE-ha-an Barcen uo'! BARR-ken WOE ("spear hafts up")
*phalanx on = Guy-no-bar-EE-an C&#244;glu. KOH-glue
*skirmish off = Am-BOO, en ot-RO-mor Sedemos-nis Sed-EH-moce neice
*skirmish on = Am-BOO, reg-MUR Ambi' AM-be
*testudo off = SKAM-bah-an! [needed? Does any Gaulish speaking unit form a testudo?]
*testudo on = SKAM-hee-dan-an! [needed?]
*warcry off = Nee-ay-OL-oh-ha-an! [needed?]
*warcry on = (The sound of taunts/shouts/cries, with crowd singing) [needed?]
*wedge off = Ed-EK-um-an! Ep&#251;s dessete. EP-oose dess-EH-teh ("horses ?readied")
*wedge on = Ed-EK-op-os-an! Cestia. Kess-TEE-ah

*in later Gaulish we find more and more inscriptions with proper endings missing. *lavero is meant to be a sort of informal or abbreviated form - similar to 'nuff.

[blitzkrieg80]

that is some impressive work- no small amount of time spent there ~:thumb: seriously, awesome job!


atu and -antu are imperatives in Gaulish.
Are you sure those aren't 3rd Person imperatives? Indo-Euro (West var.) 3rd Person imperatives are most likely: *-ōtō+u / *-ontō+u . I accidently used the same when i first translated for the voice mod, because confusingly, it seems that 2nd person plural is lost in time somewhat (only exists in OE, ON, OHG because the speakers direcly borrowed from other forms in the paradigm) so a lot of sources omit it, even though the 3rd person imperative isn't much of an imperative at all... 3rd person imperative has disappeared in much of modern language = 'one should blah...' 'let's blah..' versus 2nd person 'do!'

IE *-e : 2nd person singular imperative
*-ete? : 2nd person plural imperative (similar to 2nd person plural present indicative as in Gothic paradigm)

[Tiberius Nero]

I agree, they do look like 3rd person imperatives (take the Latin Fut. Imp. endings for singular and plural respectively: -to and -nto and the Greek -tō and -ntōn).

[Elmetiacos]

Aargh! I'll have to check again... years and years ago, I did some research into primitive Irish and Brythonic and reckoned the 2nd person imperatives were going to be -ate. Then something I saw on the Continental Celtic list said they were -atu or -antu... now I'm worried...

EDIT - I found on Christopher Gwinn's website (he runs the above list) that the 2nd pers. plu. imperative was probably -etis. I can't find the link or the site for atu-/antu- now at all. Blitzkrieg, Tiberius Nero, thanks for spotting the incongruity. I'll amend the list accordingly.

:oops:

[Elmetiacos]

The mulitpurpose barbarian (Celtic) hero shrine renamed and described according to what's being discussed on the Gaesatae thread.

Stabas Pennocavaron ("Pillar of the heads of heroes")
or
Stabas Cavaropennon ("Pillar of heroic heads")
Column of Heroes' Heads

From the earliest times, the Celtic peoples would errect a sort of war memorial to those who had died bravely in battle. This would be a pillar or portico with a series of niches in which would be placed the heads of the fallen. In some cases, actual heads or skulls were set in place, in others carvings in their likeness and in others abstract heads were simply carved into a pillar. It was perhaps hoped that something of the spirits of these warriors would remain to guard and inspire succeeding generations.

I don't like the root *staba- for a column or pillar, but I can't find a better one. e-DIL gives about 10 words for "pillar" in Old or Middle Irish, but there doesn't seem to be a common Celtic root for the good ones.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

But it's *not* a pillar shrine.

[Elmetiacos]

Ribemont-sur-Ancre isn't, no, but that's not the whole of what's being discussed. Entremont http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/arcnat/entremont/en/f_archi_san.htm is an example of heads drawn on pillars and other stuff. As I said, I don't like the *staba for "pillar" and would like to use something different, pillar-ish or otherwise. The Irish word l&#237;a can mean a column or just a stone in general, but I can't find the root.

EDIT - MacBain suggests *leuink- for a stone or a slab... this could give Levinxs Pennocavaron or Levinxs Cavaropennon.

[Elmetiacos]

A small addition - earlier versions of Welsh names from the Mabinogion. This isn't really a good source since most of the names were originally gods and goddesses and many of the names that aren't are not names at all (someone had 3 daughters whose names mean Bad, Worse and Worst of All, for instance) or else are Latin or borrowed from Irish. There are just a handful:
Male Carantorixs Clutonos Cunonos Maglocunos Matiacos Neitonos Tigernonos Valocos
Female Brannavinda Vindoliante

[blitzkrieg80]

I am proposing some province / settlement / rebel name changes to make the names more accurate to their self-names, which of course means de-latinization in some cases. I am curious as to what you guys think since you have proposed some very valid and similar changes... realize vocabulary choices might be different but if you can justify a superior term which portrays the same or how a term doesn't imply what it should, fill me in. I am an amateur on Celtic language but it DOES follow many IE practices and so I have used that, looking at various resources online which state Celtic declension, especially Gaulish. If you have any online links/sources you think I might be interested in, please post them. I am wanting some feedback so please BRING IT ON... realize I am not the Celtic authority in the group but I am helping to make the map as accurate as possible before things get set in stone down the line.

Do we have a timeline for w and v merging? or is it just best to use [v] as convetion? also is there a nasal loss such as with dunom > dunon or is it merely Greek trascription error? i>j because io is not a correct dipthong, right?

fyi- map and settlement can't have diacritics or long vowel marks...

KEY:
(old province name) => new province name,
(old settlement name) => new settlement name,
[rebel tribe name]

possible new province near Thuringia
1. Erkunios Mrogis, ‘Hercynian Borderland’
Bikurgion, possibly ‘Binding-around’ {doesn’t matter [k]<[c], jom<[ion]=[ia]}
[Wolkas] 'hawks/wolves' (fem.pl.a-stem) (anybody know of names of other Celtic tribes in this area at this time?)

2. (Coutinoe) => Mrogis Isarnomonion 'Borderland of the Iron/Ore-mountains' (Cotinin had famous Iron-mines mentioned by tacitus and this is even the supposed point of contact for Germanic borrowing of the term, nonetheless nearby similar name...or is Isarnodori[actual location referenced] better? is dori<oak?)
(Lucarottea) => Lukorixtus, from Leukaristos/Laugaricio 'Bright-form'
(Cotini) => [Kotinoi] 'ones who use huts' (/in/ diminuative + fem.pl.o-stem)

3. (Mrog Actagone) => Mrogis Argduni 'Borderland of the Holy/Shining Fortress' (this interestingly matches Glauberg's abundance of religious material and importance for the area
(Arctaunon) => Argdunon
(Hattoz) => [Elwitjoi] < (P)elu-(p)eyh2t(u)-j-i; Iya>i: 'those of land of riches' (masc.pl.o-stem)

4. (Eravacouw) => Arawa
(Ak-Ink) => Au~Inkseti (au(river, w/dropped [q/kw]; Iya>i) 'suffices' reduplicated subjunctive) evidence: http://www.reference-global.com/doi/abs/10.1515/ZCPH.2005.133 )
(Eravisci) => [Arawiskoi] 'those who use agriculture/plow on the river' (masc.pl.o-stem)

5. (Scorcouw) => Mrogis Skordous 'Borderland of the Skordus' (doesn't matter if the chicken or the egg right, since they are already there?)
(Singidunum) => Singidunon
(Scordisci) => [Skordiskoi]

[Elmetiacos]

First, I suppose we need to settle on an orthography for Celtic names. We can pick the way the Gauls actually wrote things themselves, which would mean /w/ would be rendered as u (it would actually have been V but that makes things look too Latin and because most people are not as familiar with Gaulish as with Latin it will make people tend to pronounce it as a labio-dental) /k/ as c and /j/ as i. Or ignore the Gauls and create a phonetic rendition - the obvious problem with which is that we're not 100% sure how the words were pronounced, plus a sprinkling of Js somehow makes things look all Viking... note that in the rest of this thread, I didn't bother much and mixed up Vs and Us all the time.*

1. Mrogis Erkunjom is nothing to do with oaks (oak is *derwa- or *daru-); the Herc-/Ork- Latin/Greek split suggests to me that the forest is based on that *φorko- > orc- "piglets" root we touched on earlier. But what's the suffix and what stem does this give us? It's a total guess. The name could be Mrogis (H)Orcunon, Mrogis (H)Orcunion, Mrogis (H)Orcunanom or Mrogis (H)Orcunuon (using the Gaulish spelling option) I don't follow Bikurgjom; "binding around" might be *ambilexca-

2. Mrogis Sarnomonion - *isarno- is the root for "iron" but in compounds the initial i- disappears, so I read somewhere recently. Gen. pl. of an o-stem *monio- is -n. What's "Lucarottea" supposed to be? I don't have a map in front of me at the moment. Is it Lutetia, *Locateci, or something else? I think Cotini is Cotini, or Cotinoi, depending whether earlier or later Gaulish - sound shifts happened during the EB period.

3. Sorry, I don't know where this is, so I can't comment.

4. Ak-Ink - Aquincum. There was a discussion on the Continental Celtic group before I arrived about inscriptions at Aquincum and the Eravisci and the general consensus was that they weren't Celts at all; possibly Germanic (A god Teutanos may be Þiudanaz) or Illyrian. "Ak-Ink" is still the work of ill-informed Victorian imagination, though, so should be changed.

5. I was unable to explain *Singidunon either, unless it's a corruption of Sindodunon ("river fortress")


*Celtiberian and Primitive Irish weren't usually written using the Latin alphabet - it's usual to render Celtiberian /k/ as K. Primitive Irish tends to be rendered with C for /k/ and Q for /kw/ because the mediaeval Ogham glosses do that.

[blitzkrieg80]

the actual Gallic iscription for the Hercynia silva is Erkunios Drumos which is the source of OHG Fergunna and related to Perkun the Baltic god... related to Italic word Quercus for 'oak'... notice the name has oaks as a separate word so the Erkunios is 'mountain' if not more abstract concerning Mother Earth... just the same, the Fergunna references the Mittelgebirge and the Harz mountains is thought to be taken from the same name, thus why i am using it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest

modern Trencin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tren%C4%8D%C3%ADn where Ptolemy references Leukaristos... dunnno where the original Lucarottea came from but the similarity and location makes me believe this is location the source of the name used

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/10.html

also Ptolemy is the reference for Bikugion near the Steinsburg oppida, which is why i use that name... not much else to go on

so you think /i/ is better than /j/ because of Germanic implication? would /y/ be better?

how does /m/ -> /n/ ? is there a nasal loss rule i am not seeing between Gaulish and Proto-Celtic? other sources agree, although many Gaulish sources are in fact Greek alphabet and declension in origin and thus use the Greek naming system, so as you say, how do we recreate, second-guessing bad Greek orthography which is superior to nothing, or take it as it comes? i am really unsure which direction to go..

*if you check out that link for Ak-Ink it gives a very plausible linguistic account... otherwise, i have found 0 real sources besides wikipedia rip-offs that Ak-Ink has even been found as a name... as you say, it's assumed, yet where is the literary or physical evidence? but regardless, if you check out that linguistic article, it shows that there could easily have been a subjunctive formation at the root of Aquincum whether the Latin gave 2 cents or not

so we have evidence for o-stem plural oi>i by 3rd century? i cant find any direct evidence

why does Isarno lose the i? Isarnodori, an actual place name doesn't lose it... there are other examples such as personal names without the loss as well... now i am not saying you're wrong, but i'd like to know what rule that is before i apply it.

so are you saying that n-stem nouns become 'occlusive' as the wikipedia Gaulish article says, which means nothing to me at first, but that means that it loses its special declension and falls into o-stems as you say?

[Elmetiacos]

the actual Gallic iscription for the Hercynia silva is Erkunios Drumos which is the source of OHG Fergunna and related to Perkun the Baltic god... related to Italic word Quercus for 'oak'... notice the name has oaks as a separate word so the Erkunios is 'mountain' if not more abstract concerning Mother Earth... just the same, the Fergunna references the Mittelgebirge and the Harz mountains is thought to be taken from the same name, thus why i am using it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest
Ah, I see what you mean now. There's a Hercuniates tribe in the same region - is the locale named after them, or vice versa?


modern Trencin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tren%C4%8D%C3%ADn where Ptolemy references Leukaristos... dunnno where the original Lucarottea came from but the similarity and location makes me believe this is location the source of the name used

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/10.html

also Ptolemy is the reference for Bikugion near the Steinsburg oppida, which is why i use that name... not much else to go on
I'm not sure whether the name is Celtic or Greek - λευκός is "white" in Greek as well. The Roman name is Laugaritio. Helpful or not? If the name is Celtic, it would probably be something to do with *lougra- meaning "moon" with one of those could-be-anything IE -t suffixes. Or it could be an "Old European" (or not) -eia place. Hmm.


so you think /i/ is better than /j/ because of Germanic implication? would /y/ be better?
Yes; put a J in and it just looks Germanic, somehow. Or it does to me. Y would be an alternative if you want to avoid I.


how does /m/ -> /n/ ? is there a nasal loss rule i am not seeing between Gaulish and Proto-Celtic? other sources agree, although many Gaulish sources are in fact Greek alphabet and declension in origin and thus use the Greek naming system, so as you say, how do we recreate, second-guessing bad Greek orthography which is superior to nothing, or take it as it comes? i am really unsure which direction to go..
I don't know why Gaulish has -n endings; it just does. It's not a question of bad Greek spelling; Cisalpine Gaulish ("Lepontic"?) atom teuoxtonion. Celtiberian, though, kept the -m endings.


*if you check out that link for Ak-Ink it gives a very plausible linguistic account... otherwise, i have found 0 real sources besides wikipedia rip-offs that Ak-Ink has even been found as a name... as you say, it's assumed, yet where is the literary or physical evidence? but regardless, if you check out that linguistic article, it shows that there could easily have been a subjunctive formation at the root of Aquincum whether the Latin gave 2 cents or not
I followed the link, but it says On the strength of forms such as the ones cited below, scholars posit, doubtless correctly, a verbal theme *H2/3nek'- (with zero-grade *H2/3k'-) meaning ‘to obtain, get, reach’ for Indo-European: Ved. 3 sg. subj. náś-a-ti, 3 sg. desiderative pres. íyak-a-ti ‘desires to obtain, reach’, Classical Arm. 1 sg. aor. has-i ‘arrived, reached’, and Goth. 3 sg. pret.-pres. ga-nah ‘is sufficient’.... huh? Whoever invented Ak-Ink in the 1840s or 1850s simply looked at the name Aquincum and knocked off the Latin suffix. In those days it was thought that primitive peoples like the Celts (woad-daubed headhunters who built Stonehenge and wore skins) would have spoken a primitive language consisting of monosyllables - ugg! He certainly wouldn't have known all about laryngeal theory and PIE H2 becoming a.


so we have evidence for o-stem plural oi>i by 3rd century? i cant find any direct evidence
It wouldn't have happened by 272 BC, but it would by 14 AD. It depends which you want.


why does Isarno lose the i? Isarnodori, an actual place name doesn't lose it... there are other examples such as personal names without the loss as well... now i am not saying you're wrong, but i'd like to know what rule that is before i apply it.

so are you saying that n-stem nouns become 'occlusive' as the wikipedia Gaulish article says, which means nothing to me at first, but that means that it loses its special declension and falls into o-stems as you say?
I probably am wrong. I think I must have mis-remembered because I can't find the article at all now. I haven't mentioned any n-stem noun; duno- and isarno- are both o-stems.

[paullus]

There's long been speculation that the Osi on the other side of the Danube were Illyrian rather than Celtic, but had not heard that for the Eravisci, much less that they were Germanic.

[blitzkrieg80]

Elmetiacos, there is a pdf of much more value than that abstact at that link concerning Ak-Ink... there is ample evidence in Gothic and Sanskrit as well as Irish of a verb- nak 'to suffice' and a subjunctive form with reduplication. any connection between that true verb and form and Aquincum may be less tenable... yet, is there some other settlement name to use? should we make something up?

[keravnos]

...

so we have evidence for o-stem plural oi>i by 3rd century? i cant find any direct evidence



It wouldn't have happened by 272 BC, but it would by 14 AD. It depends which you want.


I am very interested to know more about this, so a link would definitely be welcome here. A minor question. Would the dipthong such as o-i be pronounced as such? Two separate sounds an "o" and an "i" or would it be just the "i" being pronounced which inevitably led to "i" endings, (instead of "oi").

Personally my opinion on the matter would be to have "oi" endings. It deffinitely goes back to the common IE "mothertongue" or something near to that which IE spoke in Don river (Evolved Kurgan Hypothesis for me!) before reaching the ends of Eurasia from Gallicia in Spain to Inner Mongolia (Yuehzi/Tokharoi).

Besides, that is the way it was spoken at the time, so this is what it should be, IMHO. Ancient greek of 272 BCE were DEFFINITELY different than 14 CE. In fact one could say that there were more changes made in the Greek of 272 BCE to 14 CE than from 14 CE to 2008 CE. A modern greek could read aloud the greek language of 14 CE and be understandable if greek speakers from 14 CE were around. NOT SO at 272 BCE. There was a totally different way of speaking it , much closer to the original IE and Proto-Greek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Greek_language

[Elmetiacos]

There's a root *ênk- meaning "reach", but Ak-Ink is not the result of any research; it's a haphazard attempt at reconstruction by a Victorian dabbler, as I said, so don't sweat over comparisons with Sanskrit and old Armenian. That's why you can't find another credible source for it: there isn't one. I found it out by following the trail from Wikipedia's article on Budapest, which led back to an 1850-something edition of the Encyclopedia Britanica and which nobody has bothered to correct, as sometimes happens with such huge projects. Unfortunately the Wikipedia people have made changes in the last few months, so the trail now goes cold in 1911: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/Budapest

On the Continental Celtic group, there was one person who said the Eravisci were definitely Celts, another said they were probably Germanic, another said their names "didn't look Celtic" and another said they were Celto-Illyrian but probably didn't speak a Celtic language. If Aquincum is derived from Celtic, it could be *aku- meaning 'fast' perhaps as the name of an unrecorded tribe or sept *Acuines... if not, I don't know much about Illyrian.

As for when the transition from oi > i, ui > i and ei > ê took place, I just don't know; you'd need dated epigraphic remains with the diphthongs in and dated epigraphic remains with the simplified vowels... I'll try asking on Continental Celtic and see who can help.

[blitzkrieg80]

no- the name is NOT simply as you say '19th century' nonsense... i agree that the wikipedia and such seem to be based on nothing... and possibly this article too if it was derived as you say which it is NOT. the Germanic naxa means 'suffice' and the sanskrit has similar meaning too. how can you disprove it? the reduplication makes a lot of sense. i don't know why you claim that you know where everybody is coming from when you don't even look at the facts. I believe you when you say some fools thought that back then, but there are other people who have legitimate theories based on other data and do not necessarily use the same logic just because someone else said something. does it matter if it's 'Celtic' especially when the form is IE in origin? no, not at all... half the tribes there such as the Cotini are thought to be Pannion in name origin, so that's really irrelevant. if they adopted similar customs and came from the same IE culture, there really is no point to distinction as 'Celt' or this or that, unless we're talking about very specific linguistic features such as declension, specifically specialized innovation. in fact there is no proof that 'Celts' alone contributed to Halstatt/La Tene. Thus why there is even references at all to Cimmerians-Thracians and Celts altogether... they are theories but they remain so because we know so little of that which we define later as Celtic. so, is your argument that they should be Indo-Iranian and thus inflected as such? or should we leave the map empty with a question mark... throw in some sea-monsters? I am definitely open to alternatives. Would you suggest a settlement relocated to a nearby area where we DO have much more literary evidence?

[Elmetiacos]

It doesn't matter what the article says; I don't disagree with it, I just see it as completely irrelevant because there never was a place name "Ak Ink". It might be relevant to the origin of the name "Aquincum" somehow, although I can't see how such a root would.

[blitzkrieg80]

i just want to add that the reason i am irked is the idea that a name containing an inflected subjunctive verb (reduplicated even!) is 'simple'- that's way more unique and abstract than a compound x-burg or x-dunon... the argument i would guess is why is -incum anything special? i suppose it could be an -in diminuative / n-stem agent, and based in a word other than water, as you suggest in ako.

ps- you didn't agree with it before you ever read it... i think this because you say so in the wording of your posts... i dont think any evidence would convince you at this point. i appreciate you taking the time to post on everything, even if i might not seem too appreciative to your opinion on this matter.

i am editting that initial post to reflect what my final-ish version of my map change suggestions will be. you'll notice i changed the j>i because i do not disagree that it would seem more 'Celtic'. also, i agree that the m>n neuter o-stem nasal drop happened even if we can't explain why... similarly Greek dropped it as well. so, if i plural hasn't happened then we should reflect that i think... eventual doesn't matter. thus why the Germanic has so conservative ozez plural even though by Caesar's time the mora / unstressed syllable losses happened as well as nasal losses, Umlaut begins, ect.

so, i'm wondering about Leukoristos... I wonder if that is some kind of inflected verb then? What makes you think it has to do with moon rather than the root 'bright'? the lack of Celtic terms / usage concerning that IE root? the -ricio in Latin reminds me of rix and Germanic rikja which means kingdom

[blitzkrieg80]

ok I have looked into this and it appears that Nasal loss was a trend in Germanic very close to Celtic and Greek, esp. concerning unstressed word-final syllables and the thematic neuters. I have previously thought it didn't apply to Germanic during the EB timeline but I see i missed something because while the Mora loss on unstressed word-final doesnt apply in West Germanic, the nasal loss is throughout the Germanic-speaking area, something we can't locate exactly chronologically, but it does happen between the Umlaut and IE... and it's very interesting concerning similar Celtic and Greek progressions, also the nominative plural on thematic masculines seems very similar.

[Elmetiacos]

i just want to add that the reason i am irked is the idea that a name containing an inflected subjunctive verb (reduplicated even!) is 'simple'- that's way more unique and abstract than a compound x-burg or x-dunon... the argument i would guess is why is -incum anything special? i suppose it could be an -in diminuative / n-stem agent, and based in a word other than water, as you suggest in ako.
I'm not saying it; I don't believe, as any modern person doesn't believe, in the very notion of the "simple language", but the creator of the name "Ak Ink" did.


ps- you didn't agree with it before you ever read it... i think this because you say so in the wording of your posts... i dont think any evidence would convince you at this point. i appreciate you taking the time to post on everything, even if i might not seem too appreciative to your opinion on this matter.
The article shows that these roots and an associated morphology can exist in a Celtic language, fair enough. It could be we already know that because we have a place called Aquincum! My problem isn't with the validity of the elements in the article as PIE/Celtic roots, but with the fact that some Victorian racist took away all the grammar that went with them, because he thought monosyllabic grunts is how primitive Celts must have spoken as they painted themselves blue, killed people on big stone altars and ate their heads. I've seen it done with the name Durotriges in another book of the same period - the "original" must have been Dwr-trigs. Ugg.

:sweatdrop:


i am editting that initial post to reflect what my final-ish version of my map change suggestions will be. you'll notice i changed the j>i because i do not disagree that it would seem more 'Celtic'. also, i agree that the m>n neuter o-stem nasal drop happened even if we can't explain why... similarly Greek dropped it as well. so, if i plural hasn't happened then we should reflect that i think... eventual doesn't matter. thus why the Germanic has so conservative ozez plural even though by Caesar's time the mora / unstressed syllable losses happened as well as nasal losses, Umlaut begins, ect.

so, i'm wondering about Leukoristos... I wonder if that is some kind of inflected verb then? What makes you think it has to do with moon rather than the root 'bright'? the lack of Celtic terms / usage concerning that IE root? the -ricio in Latin reminds me of rix and Germanic rikja which means kingdom
For Leukaristos, it's perhaps worth noting that on the list of names on L'Arbre Celtique, we have Leucamulus and Leucimara in Austria and Slovenia and there's the inscription from Aquincum with "Deo Teutano" (not *Toutano/Totano) - it looks as if Noric may have preserved the PrCelt *eu longer than Gaulish, since these are all from the Roman era. The Celtic cognate for "kingdom" is *rigio-. Lepontic assimilated /x/ so Gaulish rixs would have been *riss, perhaps in Noric also, but this might not be helpful because we'd more likely be looking for the stem with rig-/rik- in a compound name. Gaulish *rextu-, attested in a personal name as Restu- in an inscription from Hundinja, Slovenia (more Lepontic discarding of /x/?) is another possibility for "Shining Right" or "The Law of the Bright" as is perhaps *reti-/*ressi "running" for "Bright Racecourse"...

My question has appeared on the Continental Celtic group, but no reply yet. Everyone else is fascinated by a topic "Hallstatt, Nehalennia and Salt".

Btw - L'Arbre Celtique suggests Singidunon means "Falcon Fortress"

[Elmetiacos]

On the subject of dating of Gaulish vowel shifts, one reply I've had so far suggests ei > ê had probably already happened by the start of the EB period, while oi > i is very difficult to date, but probably occurs after the Roman conquest...

[blitzkrieg80]

{celtic_infantry_lugian} Marslugoi Lugjiskoi (Lugii Heavy Swordsmen)
"Lugian Great-arms" or "Great troops"...

I renamed the Lugii unit since I think it should have a unique name- any comments or grammatical errors?

[keravnos]

On the subject of dating of Gaulish vowel shifts, one reply I've had so far suggests ei > ê had probably already happened by the start of the EB period, while oi > i is very difficult to date, but probably occurs after the Roman conquest...

Thank you very much for that. I had always wondered about it, especially on the oi>i. Interestingly enough the greek diphthong "ο+ι" becomes "i" in sound some time after the Roman conquest as well.

[Ibrahim]

Basque is a spoken language...

[Elmetiacos]

{celtic_infantry_lugian} Marslugoi Lugjiskoi (Lugii Heavy Swordsmen)
"Lugian Great-arms" or "Great troops"...

I renamed the Lugii unit since I think it should have a unique name- any comments or grammatical errors?
Since it's a fantasy unit wielding mediaeval two handed swords, it hardly matters whether the name is correct or not.

[blitzkrieg80]

sorry, i was under the assumption that you were interested in Celtic language. or helping in general... i'll let you get back to whatever it is you are attempting

[Elmetiacos]

If there had been two handed swords in the EB period, wielded by Celts then possible names for such weapons might be;
*dualâmâtas (two-hander)
*marocledon (great-sword)
*cledon maron (large sword - Gaelic clamh mór)
So you could have Dualâmâtas Lugion, Marocledon Lugion or Cledon Maron Lugion. However, I think it's a futile exercise trying to reconstruct proper Gaulish names for units which obviously never existed.

[lobf]

If there had been two handed swords in the EB period, wielded by Celts then possible names for such weapons might be;
*dualâmâtas (two-hander)
*marocledon (great-sword)
*cledon maron (large sword - Gaelic clamh mór)
So you could have Dualâmâtas Lugion, Marocledon Lugion or Cledon Maron Lugion. However, I think it's a futile exercise trying to reconstruct proper Gaulish names for units which obviously never existed.

I think you may have said it before, but out of curiousity, why is it you doubt ancient Celtic longswords?

[keravnos]

Indeed, archaeological evidence seems to suggest that they existed and in great numbers.

[Elmetiacos]

Anyone have any archaeological sites in the British Isles or mainland Europe from which two handed swords from the La Tene period have been recovered?

Edit: Is it possible that these two handers came from that Jacques Dorfmann Vercingetorix movie that was made a few years ago..?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, the sword appeared in EB because it was in a wretched movie a few years ago.

Get lost. (close to closing this thread; edit: closed - someone may reopen it in a few days or something, but I'm tired of hearing these ridiculous statements from you and your ilk.)