another historical question

[Ibrahim]

this is not long before EB timeframe (50 years before in fact)..so you probably know who I'm refering to, but here goes:

is there a surviving account, written by a reliable fellow, about the appearance of Alexander the great? if so, please state his dscription...it donned on me that the movies show him the same way, and knowing what movies do to history (take a meat clever to it!), I wanted to know what he really looked like (out of curiosty):beam:

thanks and :balloon2: :balloon2: in advance

[Aromir]

If you are talking about his physical appearance then written accounts might not be the right place to look, just a second.

[Aromir]

I must admit i cant comment much on the written accounts on the appearance of Alexander, but as far as im aware his appearance in most movies is based on art rather than written accounts.

http://billed.hum.au.dk/antik/img/scaled/70-A0541.png
Such as this head of Alexander from Pergamon.

However we cant say if Alexander really looked like this since we have almost no originals left from Alexanders lifetime, most portraits like this one is copies done during the reign of Emperors and Kings that would imitate Alexander, and its therefore likely that Alexanders look has been changed to be closer to that of the current king, wich is why we see so big diffrens in the protraits of Alexander.

We can try to work around this by finding peices of art that has suffered little or no political distortion.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/BattleofIssus333BC-mosaic-detail1.jpg
If this indeed is based on a painting from Alexanders time then its likely that its close his real look.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Alexander_Sarcophagus.jpg/800px-
This being one of the few original peices of art from Alexanders time might also strike quite close to the real look, and we can also look at coins from his time but they also show quite big diffrenses.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_aliens/watchers04_09.jpg

I know this was not exactly what you asked for but i hope it helps anyway.
I must admit i doubt there is a written account of Alexanders appearance and if there really is then, since we have lost all accounts from Alexanders time, it is just as likely to be a description of portrait rather than an actual account of his looks.
But i must admit again im not and expert on this and maybe some of the other members of the forum can clear up whether im wrong here?

[Ibrahim]

I know of these; one is a frieze from a "sarcoohogos of Alexander"; the other a coin..but what of hair color and eye color? (no I won't trust that painting-unless it's a copy of an origional)

[Watchman]

Mediterranean Helleno-Illyrian descent would rather strongly suggest some shade of brown as the most likely for both.

[Aromir]

Hmm well cant say anything for sure, but if you take a look at the other side of the Alexander Sarcophagus
http://www.white-history.com/hwr11_files/alexsac01.jpg
The guy on the horse is often identified as Alexander based on the hellenistic ruler diadem wich can be trace around his head (altough a few scholars has surgested that it could be Demetrius Poliorcetes). As you can see the colour tracks on the Sarcophagus would also surgest a pretty dark hair colour.

[Ibrahim]

that's not really certain....interesting Ideas-I've looked-found nothing.:laugh4:
where is Tellos or some other EB greek specialist when you need them?

[Vorian]

this is not long before EB timeframe (50 years before in fact)..so you probably know who I'm refering to, but here goes:

is there a surviving account, written by a reliable fellow, about the appearance of Alexander the great? if so, please state his dscription...it donned on me that the movies show him the same way, and knowing what movies do to history (take a meat clever to it!), I wanted to know what he really looked like (out of curiosty):beam:

thanks and :balloon2: :balloon2: in advance


I think the paintings portray him as dark haired.

By the way, one thing I read somewhere. His statues are always in with the head to the right cause his hearing was weak from one ear and had to turn his head to listen everything.

[Aromir]

that's not really certain....interesting Ideas-I've looked-found nothing.:laugh4:
where is Tellos or some other EB greek specialist when you need them?
Well if you have access to decent libary i can hint you to some articles on the Alexander sarcophagus and some of the other portraits, but i am not aware of any articles on alexanders actual look (altough its likely that there are some) can take a look for some if i get the time.

[Ibrahim]

thanks! I'll try that out. still. kind of unsettled. If Alexandros had dark hair, why do the movies show him blonde? even more "historical" ones do this-that's wrong:furious3: is this related to the whole idea of blonde and beautiful or somthing??someone help me against Hollywood!:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
and WHERE IS THE EB EXPERT ON ALL THINGS HELLENISTIC?!-to confirm the good gentleman's (Aromir's) contributions? since even then there may be a level of idealization in these images. and Alexander there looks red-headed...

[Spartan198]

Well,I don't quite have the name of the source in mind at the moment (no,it's not Wikipedia,don't worry),but I've read of him being brown-haired and brown-eyed.

[Watchman]

When I was a kid I once had this comic book on Genghis Khan. Who was cheerfully portrayed blonde... (Yes, the comic sucked in a lot of other ways too.)
:dizzy2:
Go figure. Does make you raise an eyebrow certainly.

[pezhetairoi]

If I remember, there was something about his eyes. Like one of them being slanted, or something about lazy eye, or something of the sort. The Pergamene head does seem to suggest something of the sort, of you look at the head's right eye...or left, and compare the two.

[General Appo]

When I was a kid I once had this comic book on Genghis Khan. Who was cheerfully portrayed blonde... (Yes, the comic sucked in a lot of other ways too.)
:dizzy2:
Go figure. Does make you raise an eyebrow certainly.

Well duh, blonde people have always been superior in every way to non-blondes.
Oh, can you guess my hair colour? :beam:

[Watchman]

I take it you wash your hair with Arische Früle...? ~;p

[The Persian Cataphract]

I find that Lysippos' work (The personal sculptor of Alexander) to be quite excellent, and he received acclaim for his workmanship especially on his much afamed Alexander bust:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/AlexandreTheGreat_Louvre.jpg

This is a Roman marble copy of a lost original of Lysippos.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Achilles was blonde, and Alexander is often identified with Achilles, Heracles and Perseus, as well as Dionysis. The identification leads to him being portrayed at blonde and blue-eyed. It's a Classical, not a modern, convention.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I thought the Classics rather asribed to him as the "Fair" or merely "Xanthenein", when it came down to Alexandros' complexion. It really doesn't mean anything; I'm from Southern Iran, yet I'm about as white as chalk and the hair has tendency to grow dark red at certain spots even though it is very dark brown, especially the beard. Having a fair complexion standing out more than Graeco-Macedonians is not really that remarkable until you read about the recitations of the Gelonae in Upper Scythia (Cannot remember for the moment if it was Herodotus or Strabo, I confuse them all the time). Here we bump into the translated word for "ruddy" which is more closely associated to the myths of Hyperboria.

[Ibrahim]

wow this is all really interesting...:yes: :yes:
and what about the recitations of the Gelonae?
and Appo-I doubt you're a blonde-if I'm wrong I don't care....
and lastly:
so TPC's Avatar looks like him? LOL (actually looks dangerous or determined)
and keep the surena jokes running-with your permisson I'd like to collect them...

[L.C.Cinna]

the question is how much those sculptures and portraits are stylized (like the famous mosaik for example). They show Alexander with quite big eyes for example. This was a traditional symbol for beauty and knowledge (Homer already calls Hera "cow-eyed" and Athena "owl-eyed" because of that). SO probably in the Alexander portraits this might be more of an artistic feature to underline his godliness and wisdom than his actual physical features.

[General Appo]

Appo-I doubt you're a blonde-if I'm wrong I don't care....

Why would you doubt that? And I am blonde.

[Ibrahim]

like I said, I don't care-besides what guarantees that what you just said wasn't an april fools prank?!:clown:
(enough you ruined my prank:furious3: :furious3: )

[Torvus]

I read somewhere that Alexander was blonde... but i can't remember where it was for the life of me. but, since Makedonians bred with those dirty Thrakians and Keltoi, it seems it could be possible... :laugh4:

of course, he would probably claim that it was his divine ancestry...

[Jolt]

We can't know for sure. But if he was a son of Phillip (And not of Zeus) and since Phillip's face has been remade from the skeleton found in his supposed sarcophagus, I'd say he has a pretty good probability of being Brown Eyed and Hair'd.

For all those of you who don't know him...Meet Phillipos II

http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/images/philip_ii_macedonian.jpg

[Vorian]

This is more or less how I imagined him. Though I pictured the wrong eye as lost.

When was this restructure made?

[abou]

There is actually a good paper that was written by the team that reconstructed the face using the skeleton found in the Vergina tomb. I can't remember the name of it, but if you find it, it is worth a read.

[Aromir]

We can't know for sure. But if he was a son of Phillip (And not of Zeus) and since Phillip's face has been remade from the skeleton found in his supposed sarcophagus, I'd say he has a pretty good probability of being Brown Eyed and Hair'd.

For all those of you who don't know him...Meet Phillipos II

http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/images/philip_ii_macedonian.jpg

Must admitt my money is on it belonging to Phillipos III rather than the II, not that mathers much since most people think they looked pretty much alike.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

AFAIK, bones are not a reliable way of determining someone's "ethnicity". Alot of factors are involved. As genetic science advances, certain markers may stand out, letting us make some assertions.
Also, AFAIK, The Phillipos reconstruction was done by a top rate team. We may assume that they know more about it then anyone here - unless this is your field of course. Are they correct? We may never know or we may. Time, and a bit more research, will tell.

[Vorian]

Must admitt my money is on it belonging to Phillipos III rather than the II, not that mathers much since most people think they looked pretty much alike.


I thought it was pretty clear the tomb belonged to Phillip II

[Moros]

I had to learn this for my exams at christmas, but I kinda already forgot it again. Don't have my course at hand though. But I believe to remember that it might have been actually Phillip II.

[Aromir]

AFAIK, bones are not a reliable way of determining someone's "ethnicity". Alot of factors are involved. As genetic science advances, certain markers may stand out, letting us make some assertions.
Also, AFAIK, The Phillipos reconstruction was done by a top rate team. We may assume that they know more about it then anyone here - unless this is your field of course. Are they correct? We may never know or we may. Time, and a bit more research, will tell.

Im sorry, i by no means meant to surgest that the work done here was not of good quality, however when you do this kind of recontruction you make certain assumtions based on what you think would fit. Like you said certain things can not be determind by looking at the bones, like the eyes, when this work was done everybody was certain that the grave found was Phillip II and hence they reconstructed the face with an eye injury like Phillips, however the reconstruction might very well be Phillip III if you you exchange the eye injury with a healthy eye, its all based on who you assume it to be.

I guess i should have made my statement more clear, im not an expert on reconstructions like this, however the identification is not based on the reconstruction its rather the other way arround.

I have recently review a lot of articles on subject and i must that in my opinion it seems that the suporters of the Phillip III identification makes the far most convincing argument. It also seems that most articles that support the Phillip II identification are rather old work from the 70ties (and 80ties) that dont take new evidence into account. Also most of the authors i normally use also agree that Phillip III is the most likely identification both based on the bones and the grave itself, most notably well know classical Archaeologist Olga Palagia.

So like i said my money is on Phillip III.
But i am not an expert in this area so you dont have to take my word for it.
Here is a short list of some of the people that has writen on this subject the most intresting in the top:
Lehmann, Ph. W. (1980) "The so-called Tomb of Phillip II: A Difrent Interpretation." AJA 84:527-531
Lehmann, Ph. W. (1982) "The so-called Tomb of Phillip II: An Addendum." AJA 86:437-442
Borza, E. N. (1987) "Royal Marcedonian Tombs and the Paraphernalia of Alexander the Great" Phoenix 41: 105-121
Adams, W. L. (1980) "The Royal Marcedonian Tombs at Vergina: An Historical interpretation" AncW 3: 67-72
Adams, W. L. (1980) "Cassander, Alexander IVand the tombs at Vergina" AncW 22: 27-33
Stewart, A. (1993) "Faces of Power. Alexander's Image and hellenistic politics."
Palagia, O. (1999) "The Royal Hunt of Alexander"
"Alexander in fact and fiction" (1999) 167-206

This is the references i have access to at my house i think have some more a the university.
Hope this cleared up my statement.

Edit: Just realised that you might not all have access to the big liberies so i have added these two links i found about the theory on Wiki i have read them and they seem okay but i can't vouch for them.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/macedon/index.html
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/288/5465/511?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=macedon&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

[Vorian]

According to paleoanthropologist Antonis Bartsiokas of the Anaximandrian Institute of Human Evolution at the Democritus University of Thrace in Voula, Greece, and assistant .....

Hey that's my town. I din't know we had something like this. It must be really small, Voula is a quiet suburb with around 10,000 people