View Full Version : Best Formations
hi, i would very much like to know what formations people use and what formations work best. i would be very interested to hear your formations, especially usefull romans.i definetly need to work on this so all posts would be extremely appreciated
TruePraetorian
04-03-2008, 02:26
Use the Roman Manipular formation pre-marian for the Romans...it's difficult to set up at first but if you can learn how to use it it is very flexibile and can be altered in numerous ways to cope with any situation.
Post-marian, I use the double line, again hostorical..but it is very effective considering you have reserve troops in both set-ups.
CaptainBlack
04-03-2008, 02:35
I Go for a basic line of about 5 units, then have velites or archers in loose behind them, with 2cav units on each flank. I'm not a fan for the Manipular formation, but I am of the Post-marian when it comes to being outnumbered, except I put that third line in their.
praetorian what exactly is the manipular formation and how do you use it. i would like to learn about it cause right now i dont really know what it is
The trick to using the manipular formation, is to create gaps rather than use default layout.
So I tend to select all the Velites, line them up in a screen. Then select Hastati, line them up behind, but create gaps. You can deepen their formation forming gaps with the '-' key to.
When barbarian enemy charges, due to their lack of armour and the missile fire, when the Velites screen run back, quickly order the Hastati to attack.
The role of skirmishers who are not in closed order is to provoke enemy, have them waste missile ammo, soften up unprotected enemy before attack. The main danger in the game, is that they'll run out to the side, on a cavalry charge which turns to a rout without support. So a skeleton of spearmen is important to hold and fix enemy cavalry, and allow the Javellin men to counter-attack with their missiles.
The main problem early on, is the lack of spearmen, due to Triarii being an "elite" unit. The preferred option for me is Barbarian mercenaries on flank, though I'll use Town Watch, I take a long in campaign to do odd jobs like push Rams and Garrison captured towns, so the main army can move straight on before enemy can recover.
With flanking skirmish forces, I'll often deepen them. Also have a square of Hastati in 2nd line who can flank, throw pila and attack flank or rear of engaged enemy.
Plugging holes with Town Watch works to, just use them defensively in squares to block charges, only have them attack wavering enemies. It's rather satisfying when puny TW cause the chain rout when you throw them in as reserves!
The Triarii I deploy behind my Archers and they will be ordered through the loose Archer formation on a counter-charge against cavalry. Because Archer & Triarii are hard to replace early in game, if you're Jullii, I look after them.
But you should also consider Echelon formations, where you plan to engage on Left or Right, but not on the other side, so you create conditions for a turning movement. Perhaps even can engage weak troops on one side, but not strong units on the other. If they attack then they get hit on the flanks.
Against Phalanxes, using squares works a treat. The Romans can turn and fight any direction. So you can completely confuse such obsolete armies, and attack them from flank & rear as they are disorganised with skirmishers.
Don't be afraid to adjust your formation, or to engage in cavalry maneuvers pre-engagement to gain advantage, before the main battle starts.
Gaul armies with lots of skirmishers, can be weakened by having the skirmishers sent forward to waste ammo against your Velites, or getting Cavalry to catch the skirmishers and rout them, similar to how you might aim to defeat the enemy general if you can to weaken morale of enemy.
rlucid i still dont know what the manipular formation is i think a picture or sumin would help
The maniples are just 2 centuries of 60-100 men, often 80, with 3 maniples to a cohort.
The Quincunx formation which is the classical one, as 4 lines.
Skirmishers
Hastati with gaps
Principes set up behind the gaps
Triarii thinner line (proportionately fewer men) behind the gaps in line in front
The gaps allow exhausted troops to fall back on support. At Zama Hannibal was defeated, when each line was repulsed in turn but was refused admission through the close order lines behind it. That actually led to the defeated, fighting desperately their own side.
Quincunx comes from the 5 spots on a dice.
It's not very relevant in game, as except in Prologue you don't have a balanced army. Also as the AI tends to string out in a line 5 wide, or even more in big battles, and not use much in way of reserves, or maneuver, then you naturally lighten your reserves.
Most players find it easier (if they use skirmishers) to have them behind frontline , or out on flank, probably because the default layout of lines in game, and advice discourages gaps in your formation.
If you fight mobile way, looking to hit weakpoints selectively, rather than static lines, you'll start appreciating the deeper formations, and make plans to cover gaps enemy is trying to exploit with troops in 3rd line.
Your deployment then aims to be flexible, so you can concentrate force at a decisive point. You may need to create conditions for a decisive victory by engineering a cavalry superiority for example.
Also you may make up for a cavalry inferirity by having Infantry spear support, your horses fall back on these lines, and ready themselves for a counter-charge from flank or rear, once enemy cavalry are "fixed" in place by the Infantry.
rlucid what is ur favourite formation for jullii versing gaul
Something that lets me hold their initial onrush, stop & counter-attack their cavalry charges, and permit maneuver to obtain force advantage at the decisive point, where the rout starts.
In my experience, Hastati need to be 4 deep, with "normal" unit size, they tend to be 3 deep which is too thin, and lead to enemy cavalry breaking through, into "soft centre".
Like to have Archers somewhat on left 2nd line, protected by spearmen who can advance, once I know the direction of enemy cavalry charge.
I use Javellin men extensively as force multipliers, they may only do 5-10% of damage, but 10% is about 1/3 of casualties to provoke a rout, so are significant help to Hastati.
The 2nd / 3rd armies, have to have more Javellin men, to make up for lack of Archers (try taking Salona + Segestica, early in game before Brutii), as well as Massillia, Segesta, Patavium & Mediolanum. Once I have Archery field, the barbs are toast, the game becomes very easy. Until then, Illyrian mercs are good substitute, hard hitting missile, cheap upkeep (only 130dn/turn) but have the drawback, that they are more likely to waste themselves through ill-discipline.
That's the point, your initial deployment is much less important than you think. What really matters, is that you can counter enemy moves, and set up an advantage, preferably 2-4 units (including missile men) v 1 unsupported unit, where you plan the rout. Cavalry Superiority is then essential to make battle decisive and deal with routers.
for what its worth heres my pre marius formation against barbs
h h h
e p p p e
v a v
g
h=hastati
p=principes
v=velites
e=equites
a=archers
g=general
basically hasati on guard mode and fire at will
principes as reserves, also use if hastati being flanked or calvalry in trouble. archers fire at enemy when pretty far away, velites fire at enemy when they nearly at front line along with the hastati firing their pilla. velites also fire at any cavalry trying to flank then i charge my own cavalry in. if cavalry in trouble i use my principes for support. if hastati on steady or skaken then i charge my principes in causing a mass route. i hardly ever even use my general except in when in deep trouble. this works very well for me because organisation is easy with this formation. often i recruit a few town watch or barb mercs and put the on hastatis flanks
The weakness of that, is against opponent who turns up with 2 family members and some additional cavalry. They can strip off your Equites, and rout your general.
You have nothing to ammeliorate an enemy cav. superiority.
When the Gauls have skirmisher warbands, your Hastati are likely to suffer lots of casualties once they're engaged.
I'm sure it'll work, because the Archer unit is very strong against weak infantry, without good shield and armour, so you will chew them up.
I've got into pre-engagment battlefield maneuvers more and more, to tilt things, as I got into minimising casualties, rather than just winning a battle through much stronger army.
Oh sorry if I seemed glib. But fact is I generally can't field significant Principes until after Gaul is well beaten, I just don't have Legion barracks in time, so beat the Gauls and Britons with Velites, Illyrian Mercs, Hastati, Barb Spear Mercs, Town Watch, Equites and the General, by necessity rather than choice.
The maniples are just 2 centuries of 60-100 men, often 80, with 3 maniples to a cohort.
The Quincunx formation which is the classical one, as 4 lines.
Skirmishers
Hastati with gaps
Principes set up behind the gaps
Triarii thinner line (proportionately fewer men) behind the gaps in line in front
The gaps allow exhausted troops to fall back on support. At Zama Hannibal was defeated, when each line was repulsed in turn but was refused admission through the close order lines behind it. That actually led to the defeated, fighting desperately their own side.
Quincunx comes from the 5 spots on a dice.
vvvvvvvvvvv
H H H H H H
P P P P
T T T T T
And this won't get displayed right. The Velites naturally cover 2 Hastati frontages, so 1 Velites - 2 Hastati, Equal number Principes : Hastati, 3/4 Triarrii.
There's a lot of argument about whether the legions really fought like that, depending on your view of how risky the gaps are. I think they likely did, as any encroaching units can be attacked by next line, making it a vulnerable spot. Generals like Scipio and Ceasar made modifications of deployment to great effect to make up for deficiencies of their armies, or gain advantages.
Others did dumb things like mass their men in centre in super deep columumns, not support their cavalry on flanks with bolstering infantry, and then get massacred with a vastly superior force, like at Cannae.
so rlucid if u had 3 hastati, 3 principes, 2 equites, 2 velites, 1 archers and 1 general how would u set up?
I'd not that let that army see the field without re-inforcements of some spearmen, unless it was just taking out Rebels of a known composition.
Terrain, and opponent matter; little things like if on attack or defense. I might do something like :
E Pvvv - Screen Velites, expected to retreat on contact
EPPHV - Block Velites, plan to flank near enemy
G AHH -2 Hastati, + Archers & Velites, create a kill box for the strong unit, that initial contact was refused with, when it advances forward.
Refused right flank. Advance with oblique formation, the frontline Velites run back, meaning the tougher Principes, quickly move to outflank, and the Cavalry can run round the back. With General either re-inforcing the flankers, or aiding the centre/right side as things develop. The opposition weaker troops get rolled up on left, and the cavalry prevent successful withdrawal.
This is an enemy General bagging formation, as they get drawn into the formation, rather than doing the right thing and retreating.
But you're asking a question that there's no set answer to, and about an incomplete unbalanced army, that could be in big trouble and massacred, even meeting a roughly equal force, rather than overwhelming odds. Add the Triarii, unit 2 Barb Mercs plus 1 or 2 Town Watch, and I'd feel much more comfortable.
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l156/Motep_the_Great/screenshots/formation-1.jpg
Note that it is vulnerable to missile fire, so heavy cavalry is a must. Especially when dealing with onagers. thats why I use two general units, as they can take on a regular cavalry unit fairly quickly, and can then procedd to stomp on the enemy missiles. It is also virtually impenetrable to enemy units, but, just in case, it is good to have backup units. I usually take 15 phalanx, 2 archer, 1 onager, and 2 cavalry, but I grabbed to many this way and my phalanx had no supporting units. I usually have 1 or 2 units waiting within the circle for backup, and they patch when neccessary. Note that the onager is just for fun, and it does cause the enemy to lose morale and men. Please be careful when firing downhill, as the men in front of them are likely to take any misfored shots. If you do not win the battle, you will at least make sure that they lose alot of their men. More men than you lose, at any rate.
For the defense of a city:
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l156/Motep_the_Great/screenshots/defense_1.jpg
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l156/Motep_the_Great/screenshots/defense_2.jpg
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l156/Motep_the_Great/screenshots/defense_3.jpg
Self Explanitory, pretty much. Strong defense on the walls they will attack, and if that fails, a decent defence in the center. Works pretty much all of the time.
(I copied my post from tactics thread)
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