Volga Kiptchacks denied NATO membership....

[hellenes]

The Vardarska Bulgars where kept out of NATO by the Makedonian Premier Minister of Hellas....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7326017.stm
And rightfully so....

[Vladimir]

Their cavalry isn't that great anyway. I prefer the Cumans.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Rightfully so?!

This is NATO, not the Greek's private tea club. You don't get to exclude people because you had a little prissy fit with them, especially when your contribution to NATO is the size that Greece's is!

Sheesh.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's not NATO but OTAN! Hence, I demand we obstruct future OTAN summits by veto'ing the Former Turkish Colony of Greece. I mean, surely the OTAN expansion and the Afghanistan mission are mere trivialities compared to the righteous and rational sensitivities of prime member states. :smash:

[Furious Mental]

Obviously Macedonia must change its name. That is the only way to ensure that it will not invade a province of its neighbour's. Joining a collective security arrangement is obviously totally insufficient demonstrate its peaceful intentions.:smash:

Greek foreign policy = fail

[Conradus]

What is the problem anyway? A province in Greece is also called Macedonia? Why should the Greeks meddle in the affairs of another nation?
Is there any rule against a province and a country that bear the same name?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Burn Greece to the Gound...

troll

[Vladimir]

Where's Rome when you need them? :shrug:

What have they ever done for us?

[Viking]

What is the problem anyway? A province in Greece is also called Macedonia? Why should the Greeks meddle in the affairs of another nation?
Is there any rule against a province and a country that bear the same name?


Let's have a war already (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%2C_Maine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_%28disambiguation%29

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

We want the Macedonians in NATO why? They have what to contribute, exactly?

[Vladimir]

We want the Macedonians in NATO why? They have what to contribute, exactly?

Bodies (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/21/AR2007052101085.html). Bloody good infantry. They have this young upstart prince who's good with the cavalry and shows a lot of promise.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well calling the Greek Nazi's is harsh, considering. As to the name of the FYRM isn't historical Macedonia. It covers less than a tenth of Philip's Balkan Empire, end of. All this "we own Alexander" stuff is nonsense from both sides but to suggest that he was born anywhere other than Pella in modern Greece is absurd.

It's a stupid name for a Slav country to choose because it doesn't have anything to do with Slavs.

[Conradus]

Point being? Belgium has very little in common with the Belgae Caesar wrote about. Hellas/Greece is nothing like ancient Hellas.
The claiming to be descendents of Alexander is utter rubbish of course, but naming your country Macedon hardly seems a major issue.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Bodies (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/21/AR2007052101085.html). Bloody good infantry.

Yes, wonderful, great. However, NATO's already pretty big, with the USA, Britain, Germany, and France having at least decent armed forces. Then there's Spain, Poland, Italy, Turkey. I think all of these countries can stand to contribute some more forces, with, perhaps, the exceptions of American and Britain. Macedonia? Honestly, they're peanuts.

[Vladimir]

Yes, wonderful, great. However, NATO's already pretty big, with the USA, Britain, Germany, and France having at least decent armed forces. Then there's Spain, Poland, Italy, Turkey. I think all of these countries can stand to contribute some more forces, with, perhaps, the exceptions of American and Britain. Macedonia? Honestly, they're peanuts.

But they want something from us which gives us the initiative.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Point being? Belgium has very little in common with the Belgae Caesar wrote about. Hellas/Greece is nothing like ancient Hellas.
The claiming to be descendents of Alexander is utter rubbish of course, but naming your country Macedon hardly seems a major issue.

Point being that Ancient Makedon occupies modern Makedonia in Greece. Albanian and Slavic Macedonian claims to ownership of the world's fastest conquerer are complete tripe. Why anyone would really want to be associated with the little psycho though I'll never know.

[Duke Malcolm]

Perhaps Equatorial Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Papua New Guinea and Guinea will have an all-out brawl.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Perhaps Equatorial Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Papua New Guinea and Guinea will have an all-out brawl.

Considering only two of them share a border, and, as far as I can see, all have minimal or non-existant naval forces, it should be a good show.

[LittleGrizzly]

I read all the reply's before the article so i was thinking this was just over the name, which is just stupid.

Seems to be mainly about some terroritorial claims which the PM or president supported by laying a wreath next to a map of, and some nazi insults which are water off a ducks back as far as im concerned. Seen as macedonia aren't going to be able to take terroritory off greece i don't really see what stopping macedonia joining nato actually achieves for greece ?

revenge for the nazi comments ? show them not to mess with the greek flag again ?

maybe the topic starter could explain what is achieved through the use of the veto, the only thing i understood is the Greek pm has to do it to please the electorate, im assuming its nationalism thats guiding this....

[Conradus]

Point being that Ancient Makedon occupies modern Makedonia in Greece. Albanian and Slavic Macedonian claims to ownership of the world's fastest conquerer are complete tripe.

I second your second sentence, but wouldn't the fastes conquerors be the Mongols?
And at least part of Philips kingdom strechted into the present Macedon.
Anyhow, to me it's all much ado about nothing

[Adrian II]

Both countries should not be members of Nato or the EU on account of their internal repression and corruption. In addition there is Greece's constant treachery. It broke with Nato in 1999 over Kosovo, supported Milosevic and tried to sabotage the sanctions against Serbia while the troops of other members, including Dutch pilots, were risking their lives over Kosovo. Why should we ever protect Greece from foreign agression? Totally useless. Kick 'em out of Nato altogether.

[Geoffrey S]

Seems to be mainly about some terroritorial claims which the PM or president supported by laying a wreath next to a map of, and some nazi insults which are water off a ducks back as far as im concerned. Seen as macedonia aren't going to be able to take terroritory off greece i don't really see what stopping macedonia joining nato actually achieves for greece ?
I wouldn't be particularly surprised if the Greek government is indeed worried that having FYROM joining NATO would give them that bit more legitimacy, that bit more leverage to actually make serious work of their territorial claims. And justifiably so - if it wants to be viewed as a serious nation state it should bloody well start behaving like one in international circles.

But these sort of problems do seem to just happen to dog Greek governments... Cyprus, anyone? Just goes to show how badly the allies screwed up the former Ottoman possessions after the Great War, on a similar scale to Iraq.

Edit: Adrian II, I'd be interested in any literature on their history of Greece and NATO, particularly the issues mentioned. Articles I can find in due course, but are there any books (at least touching) on the subject to start from?

[Husar]

Both countries should not be members of Nato or the EU on account of their internal repression and corruption. In addition there is Greece's constant treachery. It broke with Nato in 1999 over Kosovo, supported Milosevic and tried to sabotage the sanctions against Serbia while the troops of other members, including Dutch pilots, were risking their lives over Kosovo. Why should we ever protect Greece from foreign agression? Totally useless. Kick 'em out of Nato altogether.
Hmm, never heard about that before, are you a reliable source or should I look for a range of reliable primary sources on the matter? :inquisitive:
If that's true, they should indeed be kicked out.

[Adrian II]

Hmm, never heard about that before, are you a reliable source or should I look for a range of reliable primary sources on the matter? :inquisitive:
If that's true, they should indeed be kicked out.Geoffrey and Husar, try Michas (http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/book_review/001_takis_michas.html).

EDIT
I almost forgot, the Dutch Srebrenica Report contains lots of information as well, particularly part III on Intelligence. Soon after the start of the conflict in Yugoslavia, Nato stopped sharing intelligence with the Greeks because they leaked it to Belgrade and to the Bosnian Serbs. Greek arms merchants openly provided the Bosnina Serbs with weapons and ammunition through the port of Bar. The Tribunal in The Hague established that Milosevic had 250 accounts with Greek banks, despite countless Greek denials. The Greek Orthodox Church played its own part, sending priests to morally support the Bosnian Serb troops, giving Karadzic a hero's welcome in Athens in 1993 and openly supporting the recruitment of Greek volunteers to fight with the Serbs. When they attacked Srebrenica in 1995, Greek volunteers were fighting alongside the Serbs. The embattled Dutch troops saw them raise the Greek flag over the enclave after it fell. Messages intercepted by Nato show they did so at Generla Mladic's request 'to honour the Greek boys'. These volunteers later returned safely to Greece. Only under international pressure did Athens start a token prosecution of some of them.

For the record, I didn't agree with the bombing of Kosovo either. But providing succour and even military support to the enemy of your allies is not cricket.
:thumbsdown:

[Geoffrey S]

Looks fascinating. Book is now on its way out of the university library. In the provided link, this quote in particular stood out when related to the current subject:

Another important contribution of the book is the account of the sustained efforts throughout the 1990s by Greek diplomacy to destabilize or at least to prevent the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia at all, or, later on, under its constitutional name. Afraid -correctly- that such a development would only make inevitable the acknowledgment that a Macedonian minority exists in Greece -which it does, but that is Greek society's major taboo-, these efforts included even exchange of views with Milosevic to "swallow up" Macedonia, perhaps within the context of a Greek-Serb Confederation.
Far more than meets the eye, puts things in a somewhat different light than the usual presentations. Thanks!

[CountArach]

Bodies (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/21/AR2007052101085.html). Bloody good infantry. They have this young upstart prince who's good with the cavalry and shows a lot of promise.
A Prince of Shepherds? I don't see him going anywhere...

[Fragony]

Are we really going to be squeemish about volunteers taking a side in a conflict? We should have let it rot in the first place.

[Adrian II]

Far more than meets the eye, puts things in a somewhat different light than the usual presentations. Thanks!It shows how the Nato issue is intimately connected to Greece's refusal to recognize its own large Macedonian minority - or any other minority, for that matter, given the rampant ethnic chauvinism of successive governments and the Orthodox Church (another religion of peace, no doubt).

The result is often ricidulous. In 2001, a man was convicted to 15 months in prison for promoting Vlach, a minority language. Mr Sotiris Bletsas was accused of disseminating "false information" about a European minority language. His only crime was to refer to the existence of the Vlach language in information material produced by Brussels, and financed by the Commission. In other words, he was convicted for using the freedom of expression that is guaranteed by most modern democraties as well as by the EU of which Greece is, sadly, a member state.

[The Wizard]

Rightfully so?!

This is NATO, not the Greek's private tea club. You don't get to exclude people because you had a little prissy fit with them, especially when your contribution to NATO is the size that Greece's is!

Sheesh
CR

Totally seconded. Keep your Balkan ethnodrama where it belongs, thanks.

[hellenes]

It shows how the Nato issue is intimately connected to Greece's refusal to recognize its own large Macedonian minority - or any other minority, for that matter, given the rampant ethnic chauvinism of successive governments and the Orthodox Church (another religion of peace, no doubt).

The result is often ricidulous. In 2001, a man was convicted to 15 months in prison for promoting Vlach, a minority language. Mr Sotiris Bletsas was accused of disseminating "false information" about a European minority language. His only crime was to refer to the existence of the Vlach language in information material produced by Brussels, and financed by the Commission. In other words, he was convicted for using the freedom of expression that is guaranteed by most modern democraties as well as by the EU of which Greece is, sadly, a member state.

What "Matsedonian"? Some Volga Kypchaks that came in 7th cent AD? So should the Volgan Administrative Area in Russia around Volgograd be renamed "Matsedonia"? Oh and if some of the Kyptchaks are trying to plagiarise a history while lacking one of their own what should we do? Bend over? As for that finished agent of Mr Soros "Bletsas" one should first ask who were Averof Zappas and other Vlachs that contributed hugely in the modern Hellenic state....would they do this if they didnt consider themselves Greek? Ignorance is a bliss surely...

[Furious Mental]

This is the 21st century. No one cares about your medieval ethnic grudges or who "owns" Alexander the Great. If the intention of your government was to frustrate its allies and make your country look like a petty little third world banana republic, it succeeded brilliantly.

[Geoffrey S]

What "Matsedonian"? Some Volga Kypchaks that came in 7th cent AD? So should the Volgan Administrative Area in Russia around Volgograd be renamed "Matsedonia"? Oh and if some of the Kyptchaks are trying to plagiarise a history while lacking one of their own what should we do? Bend over?
I'm tempted to point out the tenuous links at best between modern and ancient Greece.

[hellenes]

I'm tempted to point out the tenuous links at best between modern and ancient Greece.

Im even more tempted to quote what Dirty Harry said about opinions....

[Crazed Rabbit]

Adrian brings up a very good point. Greece should be kicked forthright out of NATO. If they don't honor the treaty, let's not give them our protection.

Let them take their whining about millennia old pissing matches elsewhere. You don't see the US going on about how we kicked British butt at New Orleans in 1813. Of course, we also have done other important things since then, so our whole national pride isn't based on that one event.

CR

[Conradus]

Im even more tempted to quote what Dirty Harry said about opinions....

Why should the Greeks be allowed to call their country Hellas, if they won't allow their neighbours to be called Macedonia? The ancient Greeks have very little in common with the Greeks now. They've had about 2000 years of occupation and immigration to thank for that.

[Geoffrey S]

Im even more tempted to quote what Dirty Harry said about opinions....
Go ahead, make my day.

[seireikhaan]

So, a Greek, a Macedonian, a Kosovar, an Albanian, a Turk, a Croat, a Serb, and a Bulgarian all walk into a bar, and...

[LeftEyeNine]

So, a Greek, a Macedonian, a Kosovar, an Albanian, a Turk, a Croat, a Serb, and a Bulgarian all walk into a bar, and...

All walk out with different banners.

" Hellenic Genocide !!11"

" Alexander The Macedon And Some Genocide !!11"

" Kosovan Genocide !!11"

" Albanian Genocide !!11 "

" Probably A Croatian Genocide !!11 "

" Serbian Genocide !!11 "

" Bulgarian Genocide !!11 "

" We Didn't Kill Anyone Dammit !!11 "

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You don't see the US going on about how we kicked British butt at New Orleans in 1813.

Probably because you ended up losing that war. ~;)

[Sarmatian]

Macedonia has the same problem as all artificially created nations have, namely "who are we and what is our past". Usually becoming a nation takes some time and happens naturally but in case of Macedonia, it happened in the blink of an eye. It was like "WTF, we have a state, what we are supposed to do with it???".

They started to claim anything that happened in the area of their present country or that have some resemblence to it (like to the name) as theirs. Naturally that's supposed to piss off those to who it really belongs to. It's like Serbs claiming that Constantine the Great was a Serb because he was born in what today is Serbia (in the lack of a better example). A point that modern Greece haven't got much in common with ancient Greece is valid, but Alexander and all that stuff still is part of their heritage, and it isn't unimportant.

To an alliance of around twenty countries that alltogether have almost one billion population an argument between countries that have 10 and 2 million people might seem silly, but what's the point of Nato if not all members have a say? If Greece and other smaller countries aren't supposed to have a say, why did Nato give them Veto power?

Kicking Greece out of Nato would be fun to see. Not that it will ever happen of course. There are two possible scenarios: 1) Greece cave in under pressure, 2) Macedonia doesn't get in. Greece out of Nato is just unthinkable...

BTW, hellenes, how did you manage to clasify them as Volga Kipchaks?

[Geoffrey S]

Macedonia has the same problem as all artificially created nations have, namely "who are we and what is our past". Usually becoming a nation takes some time and happens naturally but in case of Macedonia, it happened in the blink of an eye. It was like "WTF, we have a state, what we are supposed to do with it???".
I think, in its relatively short history as a modern state, it has plenty of achievements of which to be proud, not the least the transformation into the modern state it is now from a relative backwater in non-ideal circumstances. Not as flashy as Alexander, perhaps, but the fact that states can't be proud about what they consider mundane or natural frustrates me.

They started to claim anything that happened in the area of their present country or that have some resemblence to it (like to the name) as theirs. Naturally that's supposed to piss off those to who it really belongs to. It's like Serbs claiming that Constantine the Great was a Serb because he was born in what today is Serbia (in the lack of a better example). A point that modern Greece haven't got much in common with ancient Greece is valid, but Alexander and all that stuff still is part of their heritage, and it isn't unimportant.
I find that doubtful. Alexander is no more Greece's heritage than he is that of any nation influenced long ago by the classical cultures. Geographic affinity does not compensate for a distinct lack of cultural ties between now and two thousand years ago.

[Viking]

Macedonia has the same problem as all artificially created nations have, namely "who are we and what is our past". Usually becoming a nation takes some time and happens naturally but in case of Macedonia, it happened in the blink of an eye. It was like "WTF, we have a state, what we are supposed to do with it???".

What do you mean by "artificially created"?

[LeftEyeNine]

What do you mean by "artificially created"?

He meant American way of "Liberation", maybe ?

[Sarmatian]

I think, in its relatively short history as a modern state, it has plenty of achievements of which to be proud, not the least the transformation into the modern state it is now from a relative backwater in non-ideal circumstances. Not as flashy as Alexander, perhaps, but the fact that states can't be proud about what they consider mundane or natural frustrates me.

Well, that is incorrect. The political stability, employement, average salaries, etc... were higher when Macedonia was a part of Yugoslavia than now. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be proud of those achievments, but in case of FYROM, those didn't happen. Pretty much all ex-yu countries have worse standard of living than when they were a part of Yugoslavia, with the exception of Slovenia. Croatia is close to having the same standard as in YU but still some way off.

But, anyway, it is hard to have a coherent nation based on: "Hey look, our GDP is 3% higher than it was last year!".



I find that doubtful. Alexander is no more Greece's heritage than he is that of any nation influenced long ago by the classical cultures. Geographic affinity does not compensate for a distinct lack of cultural ties between now and two thousand years ago.

Another valid point indeed. But I still think that modern Greeks can relate more to Alexander than modern French, for example.


What do you mean by "artificially created"?

I mean that no Macedonian nation existed pre ww2. The population identified itself as either Serbian, Bulgarian or Greek in a lesser extent, usually depending in which area of Macedonia they lived. Only a small part of the population was considered to be "slavic macedonians", meaning they were neither of the three, but it wasn't really clear what they were. So to cut a long story short, modern Macedonians are a mostly a mish-mash of Bulgarians and Serbs.

Now, this wasn't so big a deal when they were a part of Yugoslavia but as an independent country, it did present some problems (see Bosnia). So the authorities quickly started to "create" a nation. They adopted Samuilo (bulgarian medieval tsar) as their own, Alexander the Great as their own, trying to portray themselves as descendants of ancient Macedonians... in general anything to arouse national fervor in the population.

[The Wizard]

"Macedonia" has been an entity since Tito took over Yugoslavia in 1944-1945. In fact, from what I've read, there were specifically Macedonian groupings, outside the Greek part of the area, from the early 20th century onwards.

Oh, and:


This is the 21st century. No one cares about your medieval ethnic grudges or who "owns" Alexander the Great. If the intention of your government was to frustrate its allies and make your country look like a petty little third world banana republic, it succeeded brilliantly.

All walk out with different banners.

" Hellenic Genocide !!11"

" Alexander The Macedon And Some Genocide !!11"

" Kosovan Genocide !!11"

" Albanian Genocide !!11 "

" Probably A Croatian Genocide !!11 "

" Serbian Genocide !!11 "

" Bulgarian Genocide !!11 "

" We Didn't Kill Anyone Dammit !!11 "Posts of the month.

[CountArach]

Go ahead, make my day.
Do you feel lucky punk? Well, do ya?

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Greek troll using Turkic tribal names as curse words again. Hilarious! :laugh4:
.

[Sarmatian]

"Macedonia" has been an entity since Tito took over Yugoslavia in 1944-1945. In fact, from what I've read, there were specifically Macedonian groupings, outside the Greek part of the area, from the early 20th century onwards.


Where did you read that? At the beggiing of the 20th century, there were two groups of people in Macedonia - Greeks and Slavs. The problem was who those Slavs were... there were a lot of incertanties, in no small part due to Serbian and Bulgarian propaganda, but in general, all scientists from France to Russia agreed that slavic Macedonians are a mix of Bulgarians and Serbs, slightly more Bulgarian influence.

Anyway, this is not the topic. If we agree that modern Greeks don't have that much in common with ancient Greeks, slavic Macedonians certainly have even less...

[Geoffrey S]

Well, that is incorrect. The political stability, employement, average salaries, etc... were higher when Macedonia was a part of Yugoslavia than now. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be proud of those achievments, but in case of FYROM, those didn't happen. Pretty much all ex-yu countries have worse standard of living than when they were a part of Yugoslavia, with the exception of Slovenia. Croatia is close to having the same standard as in YU but still some way off.

But, anyway, it is hard to have a coherent nation based on: "Hey look, our GDP is 3% higher than it was last year!".
All considered, I think Macedonia has done better than could be expected out of the dissolution of Yugoslavia. It may not be much to be proud of, but countless failed states worldwide show that such a situation is not as self-evident as may be supposed, let alone in a transition to a free market economy. There is undoubtedly plenty of room for improvement, but I think the groundwork is there. Things like harking back to some imagined collective heritage only hold the country back.

Another valid point indeed. But I still think that modern Greeks can relate more to Alexander than modern French, for example.
Why would that be?

[Sarmatian]

All considered, I think Macedonia has done better than could be expected out of the dissolution of Yugoslavia. It may not be much to be proud of, but countless failed states worldwide show that such a situation is not as self-evident as may be supposed, let alone in a transition to a free market economy. There is undoubtedly plenty of room for improvement, but I think the groundwork is there. Things like harking back to some imagined collective heritage only hold the country back.

I wouldn't agree there. When you have a country that is behind by a big margine from where it was 15 years ago, I wouldn't exactly call that advancement. Anyway, Yugoslavia was as close to free market economy as communist country can get. If it weren't for the international support for nationalists like Milosevic, Tudjman and Izetbegovic, Yugoslavia would have made painless and quick transition to confederacy and free market economy in a few years, and would probably become a member of the EU in 1995 or so, without all the bloodshed....


Why would that be?

I don't know... Genes, language, geographical proximity?

[Adrian II]

I wouldn't agree there. When you have a country that is behind by a big margine from where it was 15 years ago, I wouldn't exactly call that advancement.What nonsense. Their economic troubles are not their own doing. And Greece plays a major part in them.

The Republic of Macedonia is landlocked and traditionally has few major trade partners. Serbia was the largest, followed by Greece. The first was substantially diminished when, at the outbreak of the Yugoslav wars, international sanctions were imposed on Serbia and Montenegro. Following that, Greece imposed its own trade embargo on Macedonia.

What else would you expect but an economic slump?

Now look at their achievements.

Macedonia has split off peacefully from Yugoslavia, which was an accomplishment in itself. It has suffered severely from the 1999 Kosovo episode (hundreds of thousands of refugees fled to Macedonia) and the 2001 Albanian breakdown, resulting in an influx of (partially armed) Albanian refugees and a destabilisation that led to civil war in 2001.

This civil war was settled admirably in the Ochrid Agreement under Nato and EU supervision and arbitration. The Albanians were officially recognized as a minority and given concomitant rights in Macedonia (something Greece has yet to accomplish with regard to its owm minorities).

Despite civil war, refugee crises and the massive loss of exports, Macedonia has seen modest, but constant economic growth of about 3% for more than a decade now. Unemployment is high but not as officially reported (37%) because many Macedonians work in the 'grey economy'. Inflation is 2% (whereas it is 3.5% in Greece). Foreign investment is booming.

Not bad at all for an upstart.

Sure, they have corruption and repression issues that they will have to work on. I think they are not ready for membership, but they are working very hard to earn it.

And let me repeat what I wrote above. The Greek attitude vis-à-vis Macedonia has nothing to do with Alexander or any other historical propaganda item. It has to do with Greece's refusal to recognise the sizeable Macedonian minority within its own borders. There's the rub.

[Sarmatian]

They should have thought of that before they seceded. It's not like it wasn't known what severing economic ties with Serbia would do to Macedonian economy. My father was head of some pharmaceutical firm before the the war and in talk he had with the head of Krka (that was the largest Macedonian pharmaceutical "factory" (I'm not sure if factory is the right word) who told my father "I don't get what they (macedonian goverment) are trying to do. Three out four workers in Krka work for Serbian market." That was true for entire Macedonian economy, it was dependant on Serbian market.

And 3% GDP growth isn't really something to brag about. 3% growth for countries like US, France or Germany means something but for countries whose GDP is very low, 3% is nothing. Serbia has stable GDP growth of 4-6% in the last decade and it still isn't even near what it used to be before the war. Macedonia is in even worse situation.

And Macedonia becoming an independant country wasn't actually their plan. They didn't really have a clear idea what they want. When it all started breaking apart they didn't "achieve" independence, they got "stuck" with it...

I mean, I wish them all the best, truly. But being in a lot worse situation in 2008 than you were in 1991 isn't really an accomplishment in my book...

[The Wizard]

You misinterpret what Adrian said. Macedonia only got into economic troubles once Serbia started mucking around in Yugoslavia trying to establish and maintain its hegemony over the area and it got sanctioned by international bodies to which the country was a signatory. Greece then boycotted it because Greeks like to break the treaties they signed and spurn their allies.


Where did you read that? At the beggiing of the 20th century, there were two groups of people in Macedonia - Greeks and Slavs. The problem was who those Slavs were... there were a lot of incertanties, in no small part due to Serbian and Bulgarian propaganda, but in general, all scientists from France to Russia agreed that slavic Macedonians are a mix of Bulgarians and Serbs, slightly more Bulgarian influence. IMRO

Admittedly, after this was crushed not much was left. But still, "Macedonia" as a seperate entity with a seperate identity is a lot older than 1991.

Oh, and as for achievements: Macedonia is the only part of former Yugoslavia to have seceded from Yugoslavia peacefully and without any violence, to my knowledge (I'm not counting Montenegro because they seceded after the end of the Yugoslav Wars).

[Sarmatian]

You misinterpret what Adrian said. Macedonia only got into economic troubles once Serbia started mucking around in Yugoslavia trying to establish and maintain its hegemony over the area and it got sanctioned by international bodies to which the country was a signatory. Greece then boycotted it because Greeks like to break the treaties they signed and spurn their allies.

No, I was just saying that it was known that secession would hurt Macedonian economy. Sanctions imposed on FRY didn't help and made matters worse, no doubt, but it wasn't the only reason...



IMRO
Admittedly, after this was crushed not much was left. But still, "Macedonia" as a seperate entity with a seperate identity is a lot older than 1991.

Oh, and as for achievements: Macedonia is the only part of former Yugoslavia to have seceded from Yugoslavia peacefully and without any violence, to my knowledge (I'm not counting Montenegro because they seceded after the end of the Yugoslav Wars).

Well, if you read that article (not to mention that it is wikipedia article whose neutrality is disputed furthemore) you'll see that it was essentialy an organization of Bulgarian Macedonians. And I never mentioned 1991, I said pre-ww2...

You don't have to explain to me achievments of FYROM. I don't have any problems with that, but that can't be used as a mean to get national unity and arouse national fervor. That was my point. A politician can't speak in front of 100,000 people and hope to raise national awareness with "We had a GDP growth of 3% and we left Yugoslavia peacefully." But if he says "We are the heirs of Alexander the Great, we are the heirs of Samuilo, we have been fighting Romans, Ottomans, Bulgars, Serbs, Greeks etc... and finaly we have our freedom blah, blah, blah...", now, that is another thing... You get my drift? I didn't try to downplay anything but to point out that such logical and practical stuff don't have much impact on great masses of the people, expecially on people who weren't sure leaving Yugoslavia was a right thing to do... They wanted to know why did they left Yugoslavia, not how they did it...

[hellenes]

I would parallelize my reading of these replies with some observations that Ive made during a tour in a Mental institution part of my course....
I observe same level of denial of reality and people living in a complete fantastic world....
Its tragic and hilarious at the same time....

[LeftEyeNine]

I would parallelize my reading of these replies with some observations that Ive made during a tour in a Mental institution part of my course....
I observe same level of denial of reality and people living in a complete fantastic world....
Its tragic and hilarious at the same time....

Would you like an ad hominem paradox ? :idea2:

[Geoffrey S]

No, I was just saying that it was known that secession would hurt Macedonian economy. Sanctions imposed on FRY didn't help and made matters worse, no doubt, but it wasn't the only reason...
Considering the other possibilities illustrated by the various times of Balkan strife, I doubt economic matters were at the top of their list of concerns.

You don't have to explain to me achievments of FYROM. I don't have any problems with that, but that can't be used as a mean to get national unity and arouse national fervor. That was my point. A politician can't speak in front of 100,000 people and hope to raise national awareness with "We had a GDP growth of 3% and we left Yugoslavia peacefully." But if he says "We are the heirs of Alexander the Great, we are the heirs of Samuilo, we have been fighting Romans, Ottomans, Bulgars, Serbs, Greeks etc... and finaly we have our freedom blah, blah, blah...", now, that is another thing... You get my drift? I didn't try to downplay anything but to point out that such logical and practical stuff don't have much impact on great masses of the people, expecially on people who weren't sure leaving Yugoslavia was a right thing to do... They wanted to know why did they left Yugoslavia, not how they did it...
Merely shows a lack of originality on the part of the politicians. It's a cheap shot they take. There is plenty to be proud of in a newly independent nation, finally standing on its own feet, avoiding the violent fate of various nations, and doing so in a difficult position. To present a different view of things.

Its similar to certain reactionary Polish nationalist attitudes (say hi to KrooK!), and quite frankly a number of more eastern European nations, which I find so disappointing. There is no sensible reason for constantly measuring oneself against imagined heroes and enemies, when such progress has been made towards a better future in ways far more relevant.

Edit: removed quote. Isn't worth responding to really.

[Husar]

I would parallelize my reading of these replies with some observations that Ive made during a tour in a Mental institution part of my course....
I observe same level of denial of reality and people living in a complete fantastic world....
Its tragic and hilarious at the same time....
Yeah, now stop looking into the mirror and maybe the situation will improve.

[HoreTore]

Oh, and as for achievements: Macedonia is the only part of former Yugoslavia to have seceded from Yugoslavia peacefully and without any violence, to my knowledge (I'm not counting Montenegro because they seceded after the end of the Yugoslav Wars).

Didn't Slovenia also go peacefully? If so, then both the north and the south as gone through peace, it's all those bastards in the middle who can't work it out like civilized slovenians and macedonians :smash:

[CountArach]

I would parallelize my reading of these replies with some observations that Ive made during a tour in a Mental institution part of my course....
Wow, the mental institution guards in Greece must be really intelligent people :2thumbsup:

But seriously hellenes - are you going to quote any actual evidence or are you just going to say "You're wrong, shut up!" With your fingers stuck in your ear?

[hellenes]

Wow, the mental institution guards in Greece must be really intelligent people :2thumbsup:

But seriously hellenes - are you going to quote any actual evidence or are you just going to say "You're wrong, shut up!" With your fingers stuck in your ear?

WHat do you want me to quote the reality? That these Kiptchaks are simply Bulgars? That their whole Civilization Ethos language and history is that of Slavisized steppe people that came under Khan Asparuch?
Makedonas means the tall people in HELLENIC language...
And saying that ancient Makedones werent Greek as Spartans Athenians etc is just absurd....
There is absolutely 0 evidence to show to contrary apart from some antMakedonian rethorics of Demosphenes....
And last Ill quote Isocrates:
"Και μάλλον Έλληνες καλείσθαι τους της παιδεύσεως της ημετέρας ή τους της κοινής φύσεως μετέχοντας"

[Geoffrey S]

Congratulations hellenes. Yet again you flee into ancient texts and irrelevant matters in order to escape the responsibility of commenting on the here and now. A true populist nationalist! :2thumbsup:

[LeftEyeNine]

WHat do you want me to quote the reality? That these Kiptchaks are simply Bulgars? That their whole Civilization Ethos language and history is that of Slavisized steppe people that came under Khan Asparuch?
Makedonas means the tall people in HELLENIC language...
And saying that ancient Makedones werent Greek as Spartans Athenians etc is just absurd....
There is absolutely 0 evidence to show to contrary apart from some antMakedonian rethorics of Demosphenes....
And last Ill quote Isocrates:
"Και μάλλον Έλληνες καλείσθαι τους της παιδεύσεως της ημετέρας ή τους της κοινής φύσεως μετέχοντας"

I AGREEZ HELLENES ! LES NA'UW THROU ROKS AT TEH DOKTORZ !!11

WAIT I HAZ TO DISMISS DAFFEE DUK INTO TEH VOID FIRST !!11

[Sarmatian]

Considering the other possibilities illustrated by the various times of Balkan strife, I doubt economic matters were at the top of their list of concerns.

Contrary to the popular belief that ex-yu republics were bunch of trigger happy idiots that wanted to kill all around them, the reasons of the conflict were very specific and Macedonia didn't have anything to do with it. It was pretty much you wanna stay or you wanna go? type of situation.



Merely shows a lack of originality on the part of the politicians. It's a cheap shot they take. There is plenty to be proud of in a newly independent nation, finally standing on its own feet, avoiding the violent fate of various nations, and doing so in a difficult position. To present a different view of things.

Its similar to certain reactionary Polish nationalist attitudes (say hi to KrooK!), and quite frankly a number of more eastern European nations, which I find so disappointing. There is no sensible reason for constantly measuring oneself against imagined heroes and enemies, when such progress has been made towards a better future in ways far more relevant.

Edit: removed quote. Isn't worth responding to really.

Ok, let's be realistic. Don't tell me that people in US learn about GDP growth after achieving independence more than about George Washington for example? Or when politicians try to arouse national fervor, they cite data from the treasury department instead of citing words of Roosevelt, Franklin of Jefferson...
"Tresuary department says that our exports are 0,3% higher than last year" vs "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". To what would your average person react? I used US just as example, replace it with any country...

Those points are ok when two people, like you and me, are talking about it, but they have very little effect on the majority, be it in the US, EU, Eastern Europe or Asia...

And the problem was that Macedonians lacked that sort of stuff so they "borrowed" from their neighbours. That's all I'm saying.


Didn't Slovenia also go peacefully? If so, then both the north and the south as gone through peace, it's all those bastards in the middle who can't work it out like civilized slovenians and macedonians :smash:

There was some skirmishing for a couple of days. As I said to Geoffrey, conflicts were very specific and involved only Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia. Croatia tried to tie itself to Slovenia and to leave together in a package, that's why there were some obstacles to Slovenia leaving Yugoslavia, but when it became clear that that particular scenarion won't happen, Slovenia left with no problems...

So if you want to be picky, Slovenia didn't leave peacefully, but in practice it did.

[hellenes]

Congratulations hellenes. Yet again you flee into ancient texts and irrelevant matters in order to escape the responsibility of commenting on the here and now. A true populist nationalist! :2thumbsup:

By ignoring you and your sad attempts to pass as a "wiseguy" Im not lowering myself to your level...If you comprehention of the written word is lacking its not my problem...

[hellenes]

I AGREEZ HELLENES ! LES NA'UW THROU ROKS AT TEH DOKTORZ !!11

WAIT I HAZ TO DISMISS DAFFEE DUK INTO TEH VOID FIRST !!11

Here are some guys for you to worship your beloved dictators that are higher than Allah himself:
http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,2323866_1,00.jpg

[Kralizec]

Ok, let's put this as plainly as possible.

In what way is the FYROM or whatever you wish to call it unfit to join NATO?

[CrossLOPER]

I AGREEZ HELLENES ! LES NA'UW THROU ROKS AT TEH DOKTORZ !!11

WAIT I HAZ TO DISMISS DAFFEE DUK INTO TEH VOID FIRST !!11
Dude, have you been holding all this back before your promotion?

[LeftEyeNine]

Here are some guys for you to worship your beloved dictators that are higher than Allah himself:
http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,2323866_1,00.jpg

I've seen better ones. Really. "Military Junta Regime" does not boil my blood anymore. :thumbsdown:

I'm leaving it at this. Have phunz0rz. :clown:

[hellenes]

Ok, let's put this as plainly as possible.

In what way is the FYROM or whatever you wish to call it unfit to join NATO?

Its in the way of expansionist views that they have towards what they call "Egeiska Matsedonia"....They live in a world that they arent some Kiptchaks from Volga but Matsedonians...and that there is a supressed minority of Matsedonians in Greece that the bad Greeks wont let speak Bulgarian....whom they dream of "liberating"....
All the above cannot be a base of mutual alliance between Greece and Vardarska...thats why they cant get in NATO....

[Geoffrey S]

Contrary to the popular belief that ex-yu republics were bunch of trigger happy idiots that wanted to kill all around them, the reasons of the conflict were very specific and Macedonia didn't have anything to do with it. It was pretty much you wanna stay or you wanna go? type of situation.
Now that's just putting words into my mouth. The fact that FYROM opted for the 'wanna go' option and remained well away from the conflict resulting from such decisions elsewhere is a clearly illustrates that no, not all former Yugoslavian republics were 'trigger happy idiots' to me. Where many of the former republics saw themselves drawn into the conflict, again I see the distance FYROM kept from and its peaceful independence as something that the state can certainly be proud of - the other cases show that this isn't a situation that need be taken for granted.

Ok, let's be realistic. Don't tell me that people in US learn about GDP growth after achieving independence more than about George Washington for example? Or when politicians try to arouse national fervor, they cite data from the treasury department instead of citing words of Roosevelt, Franklin of Jefferson...
"Tresuary department says that our exports are 0,3% higher than last year" vs "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". To what would your average person react? I used US just as example, replace it with any country...
You keep citing economic growth. I didn't, and find it curious that you keep referring to it as if it were the only criteria to be proud of. It's not. Personally, I don't need national heroes and find them artificial creations; but nevertheless, there must be far more historically relevant individuals than a tyrant from two thousand years ago - freedom fighters, artists... perhaps it is time to start looking objectively at the Ottoman period, without the blinkered view of oppression and dominance. I'm sure a lot can be found there.

Those points are ok when two people, like you and me, are talking about it, but they have very little effect on the majority, be it in the US, EU, Eastern Europe or Asia...

And the problem was that Macedonians lacked that sort of stuff so they "borrowed" from their neighbours. That's all I'm saying.
I'll agree that it's a responsibility the FYROM leadership isn't taking, and I find that a pity. As said previously, I find this disappointing in a number of relatively young states. It's pure laziness on the part of national historians.

By ignoring you and your sad attempts to pass as a "wiseguy" Im not lowering myself to your level...If you comprehention of the written word is lacking its not my problem...
Can't say your attempts at ignoring me seem to be going well, judging by the fact that you quoted my previous post. On the other hand, you're doing a grand job of utterly ignoring any discussion on the actual content of this here topic, instead resorting to idiocy with a liberal sprinkling of insults. :2thumbsup:

[LeftEyeNine]

Its in the way of expansionist views that they have towards what they call "Egeiska Matsedonia"....They live in a world that they arent some Kiptchaks from Volga but Matsedonians...and that there is a supressed minority of Matsedonians in Greece that the bad Greeks wont let speak Bulgarian....whom they dream of "liberating"....
All the above cannot be a base of mutual alliance between Greece and Vardarska...thats why they cant get in NATO....

Still if you have a history of harboring another country's terrorists, welcoming them as "freedom fighters"; I'd be ashamed to whine about "inner threats who dream of getting liberated".

[Adrian II]

Where many of the former republics saw themselves drawn into the conflict, again I see the distance FYROM kept from and its peaceful independence as something that the state can certainly be proud of - the other cases show that this isn't a situation that need be taken for granted.In the final analysis, the Republic of Macedonia managed to keep its distance thanks to the presence of 500 American Marines. These were deployed along the Macedonian borders (at Skopje's own request) in May 1992 in order to help prevent destabilisations and incursions from either Serbia or Greece. A token force in every sense of the word. Their number may not have been impressive, but the army they represented certainly was, and the message to Belgrade and Athens was clear: Don't **** with Macedonia.

[Crazed Rabbit]

WHat do you want me to quote the reality? That these Kiptchaks are simply Bulgars? That their whole Civilization Ethos language and history is that of Slavisized steppe people that came under Khan Asparuch?
Makedonas means the tall people in HELLENIC language...
And saying that ancient Makedones werent Greek as Spartans Athenians etc is just absurd....
There is absolutely 0 evidence to show to contrary apart from some antMakedonian rethorics of Demosphenes....
And last Ill quote Isocrates:
"Και μάλλον Έλληνες καλείσθαι τους της παιδεύσεως της ημετέρας ή τους της κοινής φύσεως μετέχοντας"

Um...who gives the stinky posterior of a rat?

So some nationalists insist that their 2000 year old heritage isn't what they say it is.

Again, who cares?

And what has Greece done to help NATO? It seems to me they've spent more effort stabbing your allies in the back than helping us. Who's to say you deserve to be in NATO? I say we kick you out.

I think much less of Greece than before this topic started.


Yeah, now stop looking into the mirror and maybe the situation will improve.
:2thumbsup:

CR

[hellenes]

Um...who gives the stinky posterior of a rat?

So some nationalists insist that their 2000 year old heritage isn't what they say it is.

Again, who cares?

And what has Greece done to help NATO? It seems to me they've spent more effort stabbing your allies in the back than helping us. Who's to say you deserve to be in NATO? I say we kick you out.

I think much less of Greece than before this topic started.

:2thumbsup:

CR

OMG!!! Im so unhappy that some guy with 0 past that doesnt know where hes coming from and surely where hes going to, thinks less of my country...Ill cry all night....
As for all of you calling these Kiptchaks "Matsedonians" I really pity your ignorance...

[seireikhaan]

OMG!!! Im so unhappy that some guy with 0 past that doesnt know where hes coming from and surely where hes going to, thinks less of my country...Ill cry all night....
As for all of you calling these Kiptchaks "Matsedonians" I really pity your ignorance...
Are they not residents of the Republic of "Matsedonia"? Which would make them...."Matsedonians"? :idea2:

[Sarmatian]

Considering the policies of Milosevic during the 90-ies, I doubt that 500 soldiers would have been an effective deterent if he really wanted to try something in Macedonia...

As I said, the nature of conflict didn't really involve Macedonia...

[Papewaio]

OMG!!! Im so unhappy that some guy with 0 past that doesnt know where hes coming from and surely where hes going to, thinks less of my country...Ill cry all night....
.

As for history it is gone, I would be far more proud of my current and future accomplishments.

I would also feel the weight more keenly from my ancestors given Greece's past accomplishments. They accomplished something of note. What has modern Greece given in comparison? Have they created the silicon chip, launched the atomic age, landed on the moon or won the most gold at the Olympics? I think the US holds the present far more firmly in its grasp then even ancient Greece held the past.

Past glories are worth less then trinkets in trade. At least the colonialists got New York from their trinkets.


As for all of you calling these Kiptchaks "Matsedonians" I really pity your ignorance...

So are you saying that I have no right to call myself a New Zealander?

That those of Dutch heritage should be offended at me for using that term?
If not why not?

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

What has modern Greece given in comparison?
Musakka! :2thumbsup:
.

[Big_John]

does this thread serve any purpose?

[Papewaio]

The Backroom is a gymnasium for rhetoric.

[Big_John]

this qualifies as rhetoric?

used to be standards back here....

[Furious Mental]

Obviously every other country in NATO doesn't know the truth. Only Greece realises by seeking to join a collective security arrangement Macedonia is actually trying to start a war.

Like I said, Greek foreign policy = fail.

[Papewaio]

this qualifies as rhetoric?

used to be standards back here....

Gymnasium implies that it is training not fully fledged. More like a jumping castle vs MTW. :laugh4:

[Crazed Rabbit]

OMG!!! Im so unhappy that some guy with 0 past that doesnt know where hes coming from and surely where hes going to, thinks less of my country...Ill cry all night....
As for all of you calling these Kiptchaks "Matsedonians" I really pity your ignorance...

Oh my, this is hilarious.

You ever think maybe I don't go around shouting about my 'past' because I actually do worthy things in the present? Seems to me where people came from matters only to people who journeyed into the muck.

And if I did have to go on about my past, I wouldn't have to reach back two millenia.


Considering the policies of Milosevic during the 90-ies, I doubt that 500 soldiers would have been an effective deterent if he really wanted to try something in Macedonia...

These weren't just soldiers, they were Marines.
(and also, they were part of the biggest army in the world)


does this thread serve any purpose?
Wasn't there some Biblical quote about being hit with a stick for voicing stupid opinions? We're on a mission from God.

Crazed Rabbit

[Furious Mental]

Obviously the token presence of Marines would be a deterrent. However the obverse of this is that the Marines would not have been sent there in the first place if the US government actually thought Serbia would invade Macedonia. I suspect it was to ensure that the Macedonia's borders were not violated, e.g. by Serb forces pursuing the KLA.

[Adrian II]

Obviously the token presence of Marines would be a deterrent. However the obverse of this is that the Marines would not have been sent there in the first place if the US government actually thought Serbia would invade Macedonia.The U.S. commitment was clear from the start. The Marines were soon reinforced by several thousand U.S. mechanized infantry, an AWACS and other assets. They set up a camp called 'Able Sentry' (consider the name, man) which became the logistical center for U.S. military operations in the wider area. If necessary, Able Sentry would have enabled a major U.S. airlift from Berlin and Dusseldorf into Macedonia within 24 hrs...

The reason for the U.S. commitment to Macedonia was their botched Bosnia policy, depending solely on diplomacy. They couldn't afford to let Macedonia implode as well because it is the strategic hub between historically opposing parties in the Balkans, some of whom are Nato members. A major conflagration in Macedonia would have very probably involved Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria and possibly also Russia. Hence the U.S. military presence and the implicit promise of their immediate reinforcement if necessary. It acomplished what no UN envoy, no EU embargo and no global transcendental levitation wave could achieve, namely that nobody ****** with Macedonia.

[Leet Eriksson]

you censored the wrong word adrian. just sayin..

[Louis VI the Fat]

nobody ****** :daisy: with Macedonia.Teh warning points! Teh warning points! :laugh4: :smash:

[hellenes]

Are they not residents of the Republic of "Matsedonia"? Which would make them...."Matsedonians"? :idea2:

Since when Vardarska is called "Matsedonia"? Since Tito America's pet and our beloved George Soros decided?

[Pannonian]

Since when Vardarska is called "Matsedonia"? Since Tito America's pet and our beloved George Soros decided?
That country earned itself the right to call itself Macedonia when the neighbour which disputed it failed to prevent it from doing so. If Greece wishes to stop FYROM from calling itself Macedonia, then it must prove its exclusive right to use that name. If Greece can't prove this right, by whatever means it wishes, then FYROM can call itself Macedonia if it likes, and if other countries recognise it, then other countries will call it Macedonia too.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...and obviously these "Macedonians" have no right to call themselves such.

LINK (http://macedontown.net/)

To ARMS!






:devilish:

[hellenes]

That country earned itself the right to call itself Macedonia when the neighbour which disputed it failed to prevent it from doing so. If Greece wishes to stop FYROM from calling itself Macedonia, then it must prove its exclusive right to use that name. If Greece can't prove this right, by whatever means it wishes, then FYROM can call itself Macedonia if it likes, and if other countries recognise it, then other countries will call it Macedonia too.

So by your logic what am I a slav? Im a Makedon myself and I speak Makedonian Greek Dialect...how should I call my homeland? Vardarska?

[Pannonian]

So by your logic what am I a slav? Im a Makedon myself and I speak Makedonian Greek Dialect...how should I call my homeland? Vardarska?
You can call yourself whatever you like, they can call themselves whatever they like, and other people can call you and they whatever they like. Is that so difficult to understand? If you want other people to stop calling them Macedonians, then you'll have to convince them, and if you can't convince them, then they're Macedonians as far as most of the world is concerned, and your protests matter not a jot. And judging from this thread, not only are you not convincing people your side is correct, you're actually convincing people your side is wrong, and not just over the matter of Macedonia. Cf. Rabbit's comments.

[seireikhaan]

So by your logic what am I a slav? Im a Makedon myself and I speak Makedonian Greek Dialect...how should I call my homeland? Vardarska?
By your logic, what am I? By your logic, I can't possibly be American, since I'm not of Native American bloodlines. Should I call myself a Germano-English-Dutch? And then, what country should I have loyalty to? Your whole argument makes no sense whatsoever. My "homeland" is where I was born, Iowa, United States. Not Germany, not England, not the Netherlands. Successful countries aren't driven by race or ethnicity, but by nationality. Sorry pal.

[Papewaio]

New Zealand

The islands of New Zealand were named by Dutch navigator Abel Tasman in 1642. Tasman named it Staten Landt, believing it to be part of the land of that name off the coast of Argentina. When that was shown not to be so Dutch authorities named it Nova Zeelandia in Latin, Nieuw Zeeland in Dutch. The two major seafaring provinces of the Netherlands in its Golden Age were Holland and Zeeland, and originally the Dutch explorers named the largest landmass of Oceania and the two islands to the southeast respectively Nieuw Holland and Nieuw Zeeland. The former was eventually replaced by the name Australia, but the name New Zealand remained in place for the latter. Captain James Cook subsequently called the archipelago New Zealand.

So hellenes by your logic New Zealanders can not call themselves such because another area has a historical precedent to it.

If you cannot prove this case to be true for New Zealand then your reasoning against 'New' Macedonia is also flawed.

Welcome to the modern world were citizenship for many is their choice not a caste system one.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Successful countries aren't driven by race or ethnicity, but by nationality. Sorry pal.

I believe he's debating the fact that the country doesn't have the right to call itself that in the first place. :shrug:

[seireikhaan]

I believe he's debating the fact that the country doesn't have the right to call itself that in the first place. :shrug:
On the basis that they aren't ethnically Macedonian. Of course, he's rather missing the point that a country can very well call itself whatever the heck it wants to; that's one of the fringe benefits of creating your own country. Heck, a country could even name itself Petoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petoria) if they want.

Having pissing matches over who gets rightful claim over the legacy of Alexander just proves how insane the Balkans really are. It'd be like the Vatican and Italy having a pissing match over who really was the heir to the Roman Empire; it simply DOESN'T matter a single iota.

[Adrian II]

Having pissing matches over who gets rightful claim over the legacy of Alexander just proves how insane the Balkans really are. It'd be like the Vatican and Italy having a pissing match over who really was the heir to the Roman Empire; it simply DOESN'T matter a single iota.Careful. At first sight, particularly when seen from afar, other people's conflicts tend to look ridiculous. We often don't (want to) realize what is at stake for them, only what is at stake for us - which may be practically nothing, so why do they make all the fuss?

To give you a point of reference: many Europeans have the same attitude about the American 'culture wars'. For instance they think it's ridiculous that Americans are still making a big hullabaloo about the raising or burning of Confederate battle flags. And surprise, surprise: most Balkan ethnic struggles go back about one hundred and fifty years. In other words, they go back about as long as the American Civil War.

Only in the case of the Balkan, these issues they have been compounded by seemingly endless outside interference, great power meddling and several world wars, including a cold one. That's why they are a little more heated than your present Confederacy debates. But the Confederacy issue made a huge comeback as well, during the civil rights movement of the 1960's. It came back to haunt the nation in a different guise, but under some of the same old symbols of 1861-65.

So in both cases, 'memory' goes back that far because it has been kept alive by continuing, and continually changing, conflict. Understanding these conflicts helps you understand the force of the symbols, whether it is old Alex or old Beauregard's rag. Seen from afar, it's child's play. Seen from close up, it's genuine tragedy.

[LeftEyeNine]

Best post so far, well said Adrian II. :bow:

[rvg]

What "Matsedonian"? Some Volga Kypchaks that came in 7th cent AD? So should the Volgan Administrative Area in Russia around Volgograd be renamed "Matsedonia"? Oh and if some of the Kyptchaks are trying to plagiarise a history while lacking one of their own what should we do? Bend over? As for that finished agent of Mr Soros "Bletsas" one should first ask who were Averof Zappas and other Vlachs that contributed hugely in the modern Hellenic state....would they do this if they didnt consider themselves Greek? Ignorance is a bliss surely...

Doesn't matter. Macedonians can call themselves and their country whatever they feel like. Greece shoul have no say in what is clearly a personal business of another sovereign nation.

[Furious Mental]

Well part of the reason why people in regions like the Balkans keep killing each other is that they can't get over their stupid grudges. If they stopped caring about some battle in the middle ages (or, perhaps I should say stopped letting demagogues exploit them in this way) maybe they wouldn't have so many wars.

[LeftEyeNine]

Well part of the reason why people in regions like the Balkans keep killing each other is that they can't get over their stupid grudges. If they stopped caring about some battle in the middle ages (or, perhaps I should say stopped letting demagogues exploit them in this way) maybe they wouldn't have so many wars.

Post #99 please. :bow: