Pls, explain units placement in one long stack in strategic screen?

[A_Bashkuev]

Good day!

I noticed strange thing - if I get into battle with some stack of the same Units (AUM for example) & lose 30-40% for example I'll get in case of 4 units of AUM - 3 full units & 1 crippled with 5-6 men for example. Then I'll find out that 3 AUM commanders is intact & increase their Valour stats (maybe), but fourth commander in changed to new. If I check this stack in previous year save, I'll find out that "was killed" - "last" commander in common stack (i.e. - commander of fourth - rightmost icon of AUM in stack of 4 icons). I found out that giving the title ("Amir of Tunisia" for example) move icon with commander in question to left on stack in strategy screen, - but range of this moving is still puzzle for me.
Another strange thing - I have a hunch, that new "V&V" treats got rightmost commander from units of the same type in one big stack - then he will be killed first in big battle & you want to spare him - you must move him from this stack or make his unit the ONLY unit of this sort in this stack. No acquired Valour bonuses in won battle change placements of icon in stack, then - what method to influence on stack placement???

Sincerely yours, Alex.

[hrvojej]

I'll be honest and say that I'm not sure what is it exactly that you're asking, however, I'll try to provide some answers.

The reason for having 3 full & 1 crippled units of AUM after the battle is that you have the "tidy up units after the battle" switched on. It's on by default each time you start a campaign, and what it does is it stacks all troops of the same type in the least amount of units. If disabled, the number of units will be the same after the battle (with each unit having its own respecatble casualties, of course), and you can do the rearrangement yourself if you want to. Click on the arrow next to the minimap to enable/disable it. I personally disable it, since I want to be in control of my units' sizes, upgrades, valours, etc.

The commanders die in the battle. They just don't make it. You can tell that the unit's commander is dead by the position of the unit's banner: if it's not in the front row in the middle of the unit, the old commander is dead.

The units that are freshly added to the stack are generally moved to the left of the stack. I assume that you had to take the unit out of the stack to assign a title, then you've put it back in. Apart from that, I'm not really sure what is the order of the units in the stack (unit type or the order at which they were placed in are my guesses).

V&Vs are sometimes assigned at random, either through time or upon creation, or are acquired through actions (governorship, generalship, assassination attempts, etc.). It's possible that the king's own V&Vs might have some role in this as well. I haven't notice the rightmost commander rule that you mentioned, but that, of course, doesn't mean that it isn't there.

Hope this helps http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-11-2002).]

[A_Bashkuev]

[B]I'll be honest and say that I'm not sure what is it exactly that you're asking, however, I'll try to provide some answers.

Thanks for response - I will try to clarify my question.
Get any big stack. Remember position of different units in this stack. Take out ANY unit from this stack. Return it. Check stack again. You will see that unit in question in the SAME place in the SAME stack again. OK.
Take out this unit from the Stack again. Wait one turn. Insert this unit in the same stack in next turn. It'll get into the SAME stack in the SAME position again. From time to time you can get different results, but all of them means that in this turn some unit in stack in question get some V&V. You can check it - only unit with new V&V will change its position in this Stack.
What it means? I think it means - we've got some "law of placement" for big number of units of the same type in one big stack. Previously I thought - this thing is irrelevant, but...
Recently I found out that if my units get a losses in the battle, they are rearranged to create some "full" units & 1 "lame" unit. Check this process yourself & you will find out really puzzling effect - You begin losing your commanders not from "most damaged" in battle units, but from "right" to "left" units of the same name in stack in your strategic screen!
More then that - in Shogun times we got very simple rule of entering into engagement - units stacked with your Daymyo enter battle in "first wave". This is the same story here, but... Pls, make next experiment.
Get one big stack with your King. Remember positions of units with the same name (AUM for example) in this big stack. Divide this stack onto two stacks as you wish. Bring both stacks in the same battle. Check stack in result after battle - you will find that you lose (if you lose anybody) "rightmost" commanders of "big stack" (There isn't any difference - when they entered the battle at all, except situation when some of your units was completely wiped out! For example - you will lose "right" AUM commander, "right" Desert Archers commander, & 2 Muslim Peasants Commanders - "Rightmost" & "second next to Right"!) Do you see?
Then it is reason for my asking - can you explain method of commanders placement in one big stack???

More then that - it seems that V&V traits receive "rightmost" commanders of the same sort of units in one big stack. For example - couple of times I've get "V&V" to my AUM commanders which wasn't "rightmost" in their stack, but they always was "rightmost" from AUM commanders! (Then they will intend to die fisrt in next big battle of this big stack! It's good idea for bad Vices, but very lame if your commander has got very good Virtue!)
Then understanding of game mechanism in placement of your commander in stack queue is very important. I found out that giving some titels will change stack placement (title-bearers move on couple positions to "left", but range of this migration for me still unknown). Any Valour acquirement don't change Commander placement in stack at all.
Previously I thought that stack placement is function of "age" of your commander or sum of his stats, but... It isn't so. Then - pls, help!

Sincerely yours, Alex.


[This message has been edited by A_Bashkuev (edited 10-11-2002).]

[This message has been edited by A_Bashkuev (edited 10-11-2002).]

[hrvojej]

The reason for the rightmost commanders disappearing etc. is the enabled "tidy up units after the battle" option, that's for sure. For example, you have 3 AUMs. In battle, the first AUM loses 15 men, the second 20, and the third 5. If you have this enabled, after the battle you will end up with two 60 men units and one with 20, with 20 men unit being placed to the right. With this disabled, you will have 45 men in 1st, 40 in 2nd, and 55 in 3rd, and you can merge them yourself if you want to. If you replenish the units by yourself, by dragging and dropping one onto another, you will notice that the replenished units move to the left, and the same thing happens when the ai is doing that for you. That's why you lose the rightmost commander. Try playing around with it, enabling/disabling "tidy up...", and merging/replenishing units yourself, and you'll see what I mean. The bad thing about this is that if you place a unit with silver shield (armour upgrade) onto a unit with a bronze shield, the new unit will have a bronze shiled (the worse one). If you do the reverse, the new unit will have a silver shield. AI doesn't take this into account, and therefore you might be losing some upgrades of your units, when there is an easy way to bypass this. Another thing is that sometimes it's more useful to have several units with half manpower, than having one or two with full manpower. That's why I do this manually, i.e. have the "tidy up...." disabled.

I don't know the order in which the units are organised in the stacks (i.e. does cavalry get to be placed before archers, etc.), but what you describe sounds to me as the derivatives of a simple rule: the unit placed last in the stack will go to the left. If there are already units of the same type, it will become the leftmost of them, if not, the leftmost of the entire stack. If a unit with new V&Vs changes its place, it's probably due to the fact that game treats it as a "fresh" one, since it has been changed, and is therefore placed to the left again.

Again, I'm not sure whether I have answered your questions, but I'm fairly confident that the cause of the confusion is the enabled "tidy up units after battle" option. Disable it, by unchecking the box in the menu which is dragged out by clicking on the arrow next to the minimap, and you'll have more control over your armies (no disappearing commanders unless they are killed, units of the size that they should be with regard to the casualties, etc.)
Again, hope this helps...... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-12-2002).]

[MajorFreak]

Quote Originally posted by hrvojej:
The commanders die in the battle. They just don't make it. You can tell that the unit's commander is dead by the position of the unit's banner: if it's not in the front row in the middle of the unit, the old commander is dead.

Hope this helps http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
[/QUOTE]
yup. helped tonnes!