Does god exist?

[Viking]

a person's consciousness ends with their death

:yes:

[Craterus]

Sorry, but where does this come from? What IS there to question except that which is beyond our comprehension?

I was being ironic. And just expressing some frustration because that argument's been coming up in various ways throughout the thread and it is the only defence of the theist position. And while it's incredibly weak, it's pretty much impossible to refute.

[BananaBob]

A quote that sums it up:


If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God
~Epicurus

Also, burden of proof is on the believer.

[Husar]

I said before that this Epicurus was not a very bright guy...

[macsen rufus]

I was being ironic

Ah, so my Smiley-Fu was weak :bow:

The problem's not so much that it can't be refuted, as that the refutation would be accepted by the atheist, and not accepted by the theist, hence end of (meaningful) debate ..... less an argument than an "appeal to authority".

[Sigurd]

The problem's not so much that it can't be refuted, as that the refutation would be accepted by the atheist, and not accepted by the theist, hence end of (meaningful) debate ..... less an argument than an "appeal to authority".

Now this is the core of this discussion.
We have two world views which are dissimilar. Each view in its own have reason and methods of "proof".
But as soon as one tries to venture into a debate where these two world views are put against eachother we run into problems.

If say the naturalist worldview attempts to claim that something in the theist worldview is a bunch of bollocks, they use argumentation/evidence from their worldview to support this.
A theist worldview will not accept these arguments because they don't fit with what they experience as real. Likewise the naturalistic worldview will not except any evidence the theist worldview presents.

You need common ground to be able to discuss meaningfully. On this issue there are no common ground.
God belongs to the theist worldview exclusively.

[BananaBob]

I said before that this Epicurus was not a very bright guy...

Ad Hominum? Attack the idea, not the one whom puts it forth.

[gaelic cowboy]

Who cares if God exists at all lets all think about something else that we can prove or understand. GOD if IT exists neither needs nor cares what we think since it is supposedly omnipotent omniscient and omnipresent its understanding and thinking is so far above us its like trying to compare a bacteria with us and that still doesnt even come close to the gulf between us and a god. A god that requires our interaction or ie faith or requires us to adhere to a set of rules is obviously not a god but a highly evolved being below a true god. I myself do not rule out there being a god I just rule out the concept we have constructed around God in order for us to understand it. Religon as we know it is really only useful as a tool for us to construct our moral and ethical perspective. Of course my statement that god is omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent relies on the fact we all agree that god is just that.

[Adrian II]

You need common ground to be able to discuss meaningfully. On this issue there are no common ground. God belongs to the theist worldview exclusively.It's funny how these threads go.

Sigurd, you promised to bring us round to your view.
Now you say you can't because - well, because we don't share you view? :inquisitive:

It seems to me that this discussion has been primarily over a first cause of our universe. Not over a God in the historical sense, one with attributes varying from omnipotence to prolonged bouts of cloud-sitting, occasional smiting, &cetera. Yet that is where it starts getting interesting for ordinary mortals who do not a priori share Sigurd's worldview.

I say we try another angle.

Could someone open a thread called "Does the devil exist?" and state his position, so we can see where we get. I promise not to troll, derail or misbehave otherwise, on condition that it's the real beef we're discussing. Not some abstract concept of evil that is defined beforehand as intangible and incomprehensible, but a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world.

G'won, hit me! https://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4634/devil3xd9.gif (https://imageshack.us)

[Sigurd]

It's funny how these threads go.

Sigurd, you promised to bring us round to your view.
Now you say you can't because - well, because we don't share you view? :inquisitive:

My view?? :dizzy2:

I am not a theist and does not belong to the theist worldview. I hope there is a God, but my arguing the theist side is primarily because I wanted to get the debate thing going (an effort a while back, you might not have been active during that period).
You all must have realised this.
I wanted to debate this topic, because it would be a good experience for me in the art of debate. Sadly Cheetah for some reason or the other chose not to do more than an opening statement.
The "Does God exist?" debate is a classic and there are several out there between great apologists on both sides. Most of them have doctorates and their debates are a great read.

Having said this, I would go into the debate knowing that my argumentation have been refuted in great battles of wit and logic in the past. But I would make my own twists.
It is up to my opponent to find the right counter arguments.
If they are not able ... well they lose, don't they? :clown:

[atheotes]

Interesting idea Adrian... but i am not sure if it will stay clear of to the incomprehensible/intangible line of arguments... i dont know if there would be any takers to stand for the presence of "a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world" argument

[Adrian II]

Interesting idea Adrian... but i am not sure if it will stay clear of to the incomprehensible/intangible line of arguments... i dont know if there would be any takers to stand for the presence of "a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world" argument
Oh, but surely: with so many avowed Christians in the Backroom there must be someone here who believes in the Devil?

Please allow me
To introduce myself

I'm a man
Of wealth and taste..

https://img381.imageshack.us/img381/7533/guitarmankw1.gif (https://imageshack.us)https://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4634/devil3xd9.gifhttps://img110.imageshack.us/img110/8166/drummervz5.gif (https://imageshack.us)

[Mete Han]

Oh, but surely: with so many avowed Christians in the Backroom there must be someone here who believes in the Devil?

Please allow me
To introduce myself

I'm a man
Of wealth and taste..

https://img381.imageshack.us/img381/7533/guitarmankw1.gif (https://imageshack.us)https://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4634/devil3xd9.gifhttps://img110.imageshack.us/img110/8166/drummervz5.gif (https://imageshack.us)

dude great song.

god and devil, good and evil are all inventions of mankind.

So god is us,

but then who invented us?

Do you really care?

Just have fun and multiply!!!

[Vladimir]

dude great song.

god and devil, good and evil are all inventions of mankind.

So god is us,

but then who invented us?

Do you really care?

Just have fun and multiply!!!

I'm Austin Powers, and I endorse this message.

https://img102.imageshack.us/img102/997/imageskl5.jpg

Yea baby!