Gothic Warband?

[brymht]

So I believe the Goths (Getes maybe at this point?) wee still in Gotland at this time. Since we have some open unit slots, was there ever any talk about making this unit recruitable on this island? They would still be fairly primitive, since they hadn't emigrated ot the mainland yet.

I'd been thinking about creating this unit myself, but am completely baffled as to what they would have looked like while still in Gotland. Any history buffs out there want to take a few guesses?

[Eduorius]

Why not using Druhtiz Skandzisku (Scandinavian Spearmen) for them? Gotland is in Scandinavia and I dont think that the Goths would be very different to other tribes of the region in the EB timeframe.

I think the team is very interested in guys that can do units. :yes:

[Meothar]

This unit won't appear in most campaigns because the AI never reaches Gotland. Of course its nice to have more units but those from other areas are more important, because they will be recruited by AI and human players alike. So if you want to create this unit, do it. But if you create a unit from a land not at the edge of the map, it will be better.

[blitzkrieg80]

you guys are funny- hehe, have you checked out the name of the Scandinavian Warband? it IS Gautisk (as of 1.1)! I was on the same level when i renamed them- Skandza is Jordanes and I do not think Scandinavia is that Germanic (I smell dirty Latin), even if somewhat rooted in it, besides all the other tribal names we have and the Gaut ethnicity... so anyways, I'm glad you guys like my idea- too bad you didn't notice it's in 1.1 :cool4: recruitable from Gotland and Geatland aka Gautland, mythical homeland of the Goths... technically Goths are mainlanders, btw, at a much later date around 50AD, but i'm sure they weren't NOT there, just that they were not politically identifiable, thought to have been ruled over/ giving tribute to the Lugi / Lemovi confederation along with the Vandals until later rebellion, then later migration, and great tales to follow.

anyways, I'm very happy to hear you guys think that's a good idea- i thought i'd hear complaining about the loss of that non-authentic term... we can expect that whole area to be renamed in eb2.

[brymht]

What I'm hearing is that they may be very close to the Sknadza warband. I will probably make a sword wielding variety, then; Possibly Gothic Nobile Infantry, or Gotland Raiders, since i believe the island WAS kind of a Pirate haven.....

History people: Any further advice would be well recieved on what this should look like :

[DaCrAzYmOfO]

Ostrogoths...visigoths..... depends on what goths you talking about

visigoths invaded the roman empire from a place that is roughly the area to the west of crimea....

cause they got tired of the romans not feeding them enough, and selling them dogs food >.>

now the ostrogoths, im not too sure. I'd have to check my history book lol.

Anyone more adept at german history enlighten us please?

[brymht]

Ah those are Goths of Late Antiquity. During the EB time frame, they still are hanging out on the big island in the Baltic. (Gotland, or Geteland, or many other names). Eventually they migrated, possibly due to overpopulation.

[anubis88]

Ah those are Goths of Late Antiquity. During the EB time frame, they still are hanging out on the big island in the Baltic. (Gotland, or Geteland, or many other names). Eventually they migrated, possibly due to overpopulation.
This is only a hyphotesis at this point AFAIK. There is no proof from where the goths originated. although this is the best guess so far

[blitzkrieg80]

true, but WE KNOW their name comes from the same root, an ancestor god who was later equated with Odin (although originally not him at all) and/or most probably from the root word which means to 'pour out' (a river even?) which has parallels in other languages for self-identity as 'men.' if Goths did originate overseas, Berig and Amals and all, it prob. was not the island but the mainland, imo.

there is no reason to think that Scandinavians would go from Poland up to Skandinavia then back again though, that's pretty backward thinking of them... they easily could have stopped in Poland on their long trek along the Eurasian steppe with other Indo-Europeans and Finno-Ugric speakers and split off into Gauts and Goths and reconqured the steppeland at a later time and identity... we have no equation for knowing what people spoke in terms of 'culture' so Pomerania/Poland (the place not archaeological distinction) culture as well as neighboring cultures which we know very little about (due to Med. focus and oral tradition versus literary and all that) could have been Germanic speakers, although I think West Slavs did not spontaneously generate from nowhere, esp. after examining the hard to find evidence and accounts on it all.

I reccomend Herwig Wolfram's History of the Goths if anyone is really interested in the Goths, pretty definitive... of course Jordanes (not Michael ~;)) is our best primary source, period. Gothic the language is great for early Germanic lang., I reccomend Wright's books on the subject... very useful for the Proto-Germanic voice mod, although the EB timeline is so far back that I spend a lot of time transforming from Proto-Germanic to Western Indo-European, which we don't have a lot of evidence for- doh

I can scan some helpful maps showing Balthi and Amals, Cherniakhov and Wielbark expansion and all that, if you're interested

[russia almighty]

Why do human migrations have to be so messed up?

[cmacq]

true,

there is no reason to think that Scandinavians would go from Poland up to Skandinavia then back again though, that's pretty backward thinking of them... they easily could have stopped in Poland on their long trek along the Eurasian steppe with other Indo-Europeans and Finno-Ugric speakers and split off into Gauts and Goths and reconqured the steppeland at a later time and identity... we have no equation for knowing what people spoke in terms of 'culture' so Pomerania/Poland (the place not archaeological distinction) culture as well as neighboring cultures which we know very little about (due to Med. focus and oral tradition versus literary and all that) could have been Germanic speakers, although I think West Slavs did not spontaneously generate from nowhere, esp. after examining the hard to find evidence and accounts on it all.


I've a little plot twist, on this line of thought.

[blitzkrieg80]

hmm... let me guess, does it involve non-Germanic speaking Aesti and mysterious 'mist' peoples wandering who enjoy a letter C? :7fortuneteller:

aside from this, i do need to get to your other thread with the sonorous shifty OHG while i can...

[cmacq]

Not the people of the mist?!


long story short...

other Indo-Europeans mix with Finno-Ugric=proto-Balt

other Indo-Europeans mix with Ligo/whatevers=proto-Kelts

a warm snap and proto-Balt and proto-Kelt cross into Sweden and mix with some kind of Sami-light/Finno-Ugric and some unknown other=proto-Germanic/Nordic.

a mild cold snap
a warm snap
proto-Germanic/Nordic population increase in southern Sweden and Norway.

a cold snap and proto-Germanic/Nordic migrations to central Europe to backfill collapse of Kelt and Balt weakness.

birth of an ethnos

[blitzkrieg80]

or the Celts were an extension of the mighty Behr Armiez who go separated on their long trek to be reunited in Cisalpine Gaul, and a nonsensically named language was born: Cimbric

[cmacq]

Better Behr Armiez, than Br'er Rabbit, as that wee baby, could prove gooky?

[Gothic]

Nice topic. :beam: I'm all for it!

[Disciple of Tacitus]

ohhhhh. Mist people.
*pulls up chair, grabs popcorn*


Seriously. There are quite a few interesting possible directions for this thread to take, so I am going to put my vote in...

1 - From Blitzkrieg80
I can scan some helpful maps showing Balthi and Amals, Cherniakhov and Wielbark expansion and all that, if you're interested
ummm. Yes, interested.

2 - Cmaq, your cold snap, warm snap, cold snap, warm ... theory is intriguing. Tell me more ...


ps. Herwig Wolfram's "History of the Goths". Check. Thanks for the recommendation.

[MeinPanzer]

What I'm hearing is that they may be very close to the Sknadza warband. I will probably make a sword wielding variety, then; Possibly Gothic Nobile Infantry, or Gotland Raiders, since i believe the island WAS kind of a Pirate haven.....

History people: Any further advice would be well recieved on what this should look like :

I have not been able to find any specific information of late pre-Roman Iron Age weaponry finds from Gotland, but there are a few finds from the nearby Swedish mainland. These include bone and iron spearheads, but no swords. These men would probably have been armed like the light light raiders whose weaponry was deposited in the Hjortspring offering: small thureos and a few frameae, mostly with bone heads but also including some of iron.

[The General]

*Approves of the thread*

However... Mist people? :inquisitive:

[cmacq]

*pulls up chair, grabs popcorn*

2 - Cmaq, your cold snap, warm snap, cold snap, warm ... theory is intriguing. Tell me more ...



An outline in a nutshell

Indeed just a theory, as an overriding mechanism of causality or background noise. This we do know; the climate of at least the northern hemisphere appears to oscillate between cool/cold and dry and warm/hot and wet. This is one of the reasons there is a significant resolution problem with radiocarbon dating. I believe, as Paleoclimatic reconstructions[1], the earliest documented occurence is called the Oldest Dryas ([BC 16,000-12,650] cold and dry), which is followed by the Bølling Oscillation ([BC 12,600-12,100] warm-wet), Older Dryas ([BC 12,050-11,900] cold-dry), Allerød Oscillation ([BC 10,000-9,000] warm and wet), and the Younger Dryas ([BC 9,000-8,000] very cold-very dry). Since the Younger Dryas we have been in what is called an interglacial period.

Within the current interglacial period there also seems to be a similar pattern of rapid climate change from cool and dry to warm and wet; for example the Alta Thermal ([BC 5000-3000] very warm/hot and wet). We also have the Medieval Climate Optimum (MCO [650-1300 AD] warm and wet), the Little Ice Age (LIA [AD 1300-1850] cold and dry), and the current warm period ([AD 1850-present] warm and wet). Now, my theory proposes that the roughly 700/500 year cycle of cold-to-warm oscillation, as witnessed in the MCO and LIA may have occurred continuously, between the Alta Thermal and the Medieval Climate Optimum.

Of course the duration nor the severity of these climatic changes may not have been consistent from one episode to another. Also the impacts of these changes would naturally depend on ones latitude, and its entirely unclear how the southern hemisphere was affected. Yet, I believe that an argument can be made for a cooling trend between 50 BC-AD 650, preceded by warm weather 600-50 BC, cold 1200-600 BC, and warm 1700-1200 BC. Now the trick is testing the theory.

Want more?

[1] based on ice, dendro, corals, and marine sediment.