Hellenic Trait ideas

[Klearchos]

Hail

I've came up with some traits for the hellenic factions' generals.

-Polemohares (warmonger):+2 Com, +1HP, +1 Morale of Troops.

-Zythopotes (Beer-drinker): -1 Inf (Drinking beer was a barbaric habbit for the hellenes.)

-Varvaron Polemios( enemy of barbarians): +2 Com when agianst non-hellenic factions

-Theleprepes (efemminate): -1 Inf, -1 Morale of troops

-Heros (Hero): +1 Inf, +1 Com, +1 Morale of troops, -1 Personal security

-Okneros (Lazy): -1 Management, -1 Inf

-Methysos (drunkard): -2 Manag, -1 Inf, -1 personal security

-Lakonizon (economic with words) : +1 Inf (the spartan way of expressing one's self with as few words as possible was esteemed in the hellenic world)

-Midizontos Oikou (Son of "midizon" family)Possibility of being easy to bribe,-1 Inf
(This mans ancestors was midizontes(aligned with the Persians).He might be corrupted himsef, and even if he isn't he is somewhat unpopular)


I hope you like them:beam:

[Hax]

They look very nice, especially the fact that this is Hellenic only.

However, I believe that a lot of these traits are already in EB1. Even though, they do look good.

[whatthehell6]

;Trait: Warmonger
; o Warmonger (10): <Attack> 1, <Management> -1, <HitPoints> 1

;Trait: Drink
; o Social_Drinker (1): <Influence> 1, <HitPoints> 1
; o Likes_a_Drink (2): <HitPoints> 1
; o Drunkard (4): <Command> -1, <Management> -1
; o Drunken_Lout (8): <Influence> -1, <Command> -1, <Management> -2
; o Sot (16): <Influence> -2, <Command> -2, <Management> -2, <HitPoints> -1
; o Paralytic (32): <Influence> -3, <Command> -2, <Management> -3, <HitPoints> -2

;Trait: HatesBarbarians
; o Hates_Smelly_Barbarians (4): <Combat_V_Barbarian> 1
; o Loathes_Disgusting_Barbarians (8): <Combat_V_Barbarian> 2

Couldn't find effeminate off the top of trying.

; o Heroic_Attacker (48): <Attack> 3, <MovementPoints> 4

;Trait: Slothful
; o Rather_Lazy (1): <Management> -1, <MovementPoints> -1
; o Lazy (2): <Management> -2, <MovementPoints> -2
; o Indolent (4): <Management> -3, <MovementPoints> -3
; o Indolent_Lardy_Arse (8): <Management> -4, <MovementPoints> -4

;Trait: InspiringSpeaker
; o Outstanding_Speaker (1): <Influence> 1
; o Famous_Orator (2): <Influence> 2
; o Great_Orator (4): <Influence> 3

No traitor in searching the traits file.

All of those though, (I think) can be had by Greeks. The ones I have listed are in fact in the EB1.1 traits.

[General Appo]

Yeah, but having greek names for them is even nicer.

[whatthehell6]

Definitely understand the point.

As for 1.1. I'm sure if you wanted to you could ask for some help in the unofficial mods section and get someone to help with modding the traits folder to give those traits. Assuming you or they can find effective triggers and such.

[Klearchos]

I know some of them are in EB 1, but I just wanted to translate them in greek (I'm not even sure the transletion was entirely correct, the only ancient greek I've been taught were in highschool)
But there some differences,too. For instance "Zythopotes" is not oriented to "drinking", but to "drinking beer", a habbit of Thrakioi and Skythai, which Hellenes found barbaric. And "Lakonizein" was the way of the Spartiatai to express themselves with as few words as possible, and it is different frrom being just a "Great Orator".
Anyway I just wanted to try.

Oh and I have another one, but it's pretty sick..

-Chalkidizon (boy-lover) -1 fertility, -1 Inf (?)

[Hax]

Wasn't so weird in Athens, now?

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

Oh and I have another one, but it's pretty sick..

-Chalkidizon (boy-lover) -1 fertility, -1 Inf (?)
I don't think that would necessarily be detrimental to any opinions of him, considering the times and place...

[keravnos]

Some great ideas here... :yes:

[chairman]

There are two main problems with adding traits related to homosexual practices: one historical, the other content related.

The first is that homosexuality had different reputations in different places and at different times. Some (like the Thebans) were very open and supportive of it, while others (like Xenephon) discouraged it as undisciplined and immoral.

The second is that the the inclusion of this topic would require either an addition to the modesty patch to cover traits or an 18 year or older warning (though the chance of someone reading it ... LOL). I remember a team member saying this very point not too long ago.

Indeed, whether we agree or disagree with the lifestyle, it was an important issue in the period, however these two problems make its inclusion difficult.

I'm not a team member, so I'm just telling you what I've heard from them.

Chairman

[Foot]

Um, as long as we don't make explicit sexual references we don't need an 18. A book, talking about the homosexuality in classical greece, isn't going to get given an 18 rating.

If we start using explicity sexual language then we would be in trouble; as a history of a people, its no problem.

As for number 1, we have to generalise about a lot of things, and its something for the historians to decide.

Foot

[keravnos]

I don't think that would necessarily be detrimental to any opinions of him, considering the times and place...

First off, Chairman has the right of it, of course and indeed it was not as "clean cut" as many people today think. If anything, there were some greek poleis in which homosexuality was punishable by death. The "Amor grecorum" thing is blown way out of proportion, and can be dismissed outright as Romani propaganda. To have people actually believe to this day that all ancient greeks were bisexual is just not true. One can very well say that it is a residue of Romani propaganda turned into history. Or romani cultural inferiority complex turned nasty.

A good example of that is the meaning of "Eromenos". Many historians (those more inclined to follow blindly into what Romani historians have left us) consider its meaning as "lover". While it did mean that, it also meant "fan". In fact a case can be made that it meant more "fan" than "lover", back then, especially in the context of agora. When someone is described in the ancient texts as having many "Eromenoi" it didn't necessarily follow that he had many lovers. Just "fans", people who were fond of him.

What was there,in general, was tolerance. In some cases of course, like in certain poleis of crete, there was ritualised Pedophilia, for which Aristoteles blasts the cretans. In other city states Homosexuality was punishable by death as I mentioned earlier.

Foot has the right of it, 18 rating. EB is a mod a father should be able to play alongside his son and explain things along the way. How romans fought, why they won, and even explore alongside him people that have long since disappeared, or whose traces remain to this day. Hellenistic civilisations, Proud Lusotannan, Fast riding Pahlavan, it's all there to be discovered.

[chairman]

Thanks Keravnos, those are really good points. I'm glad you were able to clarify and expand on my rather skeletal analysis.

Chairman

[keravnos]

Thanks Keravnos, those are really good points. I'm glad you were able to clarify and expand on my rather skeletal analysis.

Chairman

It's not a problem.

My own "ideal" vision of Hellenistic civilisation is that of an island of tolerance and moderation among a raging sea of extreme xenophobia and homophobia.

It is of course very simplified, and there are many historical facts that would countermand it, but its basic principles stand. It was true back then, and it is also true now.

Here are 3 things that Ancient Greeks and their philosophy can do for us in our daily lives.



1. Tolerance
-> I needn’t speak of it, I think. Organized society is based on the tolerance that should exist among people and societies. “E pluribus Unum” was a reality much before it was immortalized in its latin version. In greek it was called “Syncretism”. A common culture, the Hellenistic one was a base that everything else existed upon. Within it, those who took part were sooner or later considered Hellenes. Case in point are the Hebrews of Alexandreia in Egypt, 180.000 strong of the 600.000 people who were its inhabitants in the time of Cleopatra. All those, even as they kept their traditions and religion intact, were considered Hellenes. There was no distinction, legal or otherwise between them and the Hellenic population of that city. What did exist was a syncretism, a joining of things to create something different out of all the elements together. Present day US and Brittain have also followed suit. A person of whichever colour, faith or background, can rise to become rich and respected through his work. This “American dream” can only spring from tolerance. Martin Luther King among others spoke of this much more eloquently than I can ever hope to.


2. Moderation
-> “PAN METRON ARISTON” or “All in moderation” was an overriding principle in the Hellenic and later Hellenistic societies. People tried to achieve moderation in their lives. This is sorely needed today with 2/3 Americans obese and most of the car related deaths being attributed to drunken driving. Much of the so called “first” world is in that same state, Greece included. It is important that we all set for ourselves certain achievable goals, make them a core of our being and always strive to achieve them. To not eat too much, to not drink too much, exercise a specific amount of time or sleep a certain amount of hours each day. Not more or less. The stuff that all the diets of today are made of. It is always true that we will probably fail in the quest to live an “all moderate” life. It is important that we try, though. Following an unattainable dream is much, much better than living a life which is spent in self pity and blaming everyone else. “PANTON METRON ANTHROPOS” meaning that “ man is the measure of all things”. Only one person can judge your life. You. Try to find out what went wrong, if anything did, and try to get out of there. Enjoy what is good if you feel that you are doing well. In the end, the only one person worthy of judging you is yourself.



3. Absolution from fear

a. Xenophobia- If you consider foreigners or people of different skin and religion a menace to society, it is more often than not you who is the menace to it. In Hellenistic Greece, people (other than slaves) were treated the same as Hellenes or Greeks would. In many cases Greeks were assimilated into the local population. IndoGreeks come to mind here, as some centuries after their arrival into India, they must have become totally Indianised. There are dedications by “Yona” aka IndoGreeks who have fully Indian names some centuries after the last Independent IndoGreek state existed. In Pahlava the same amalgamation occurred, with greeks fighting alongside Pahlavan against the invading armies of Trajan. Now back to the present. We all live or will live in the future to multi-cultural societies, if the country we live in is rich enough. Sooner or later we will all come across people who weren’t born as lucky or as privileged as we are. It is very important that we realize this, as the situation will definitely increase in the future. People will come in your societies from less priviledged ones looking for a job to support themselves and their family. A generation later they may very well be among the best and brightest citizens you have. Please, don’t allow that chance to be wasted among the xenophobic part of the population that focuses on the criminals who inevitably will come along those looking for an honest job. Police will take care of the bad guys. The rest are looking for work. I am sure that for a majority of us, there are people in the family who traveled abroad to work and settle. If they weren’t received as well as they should, does that mean that this should happen now? Personally, I feel sick when I see financial immigrants being treated badly here in Greece, when all they did is try to support their families, leaving from a country in which life wasn’t supportable. Greeks did the same up until 20 years ago, and now that the tables have turned repeat the injustices done to them earlier on with a vengeance. This vicious circle has to end, and it has to end here and now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia


b. Homophobia-This is the greatest fear all men have as they grow up. That somehow, somewhere they aren’t full men or even worse, however macho or masculine they may feel, the world might not view them as such.
The reason is simple. Growing within a society which demands certain things of men we strive to achieve them to prove ourselves. This has happened in the ancient times too. Whether it is slaying the dragon or having to hunt for your own food or flog yourself to death, you have to go above and beyond to prove your courage. Some don’t. Haven’t, and won’t. Society tends to look down on them. Growing up the insecurities you face are always there, and sooner or later you face the choice of ganging up with the “powerful” against some “lesser” ones, or be part of those. Both choices are erroneous. The “powerful” and “influential” and what have you will try to smear all things about the “lesser” ones, just to make themselves known. The “lesser” ones will have to defend themselves however they can, even having to prove that they are not Elephants. A very bad situation for both sides. Fortunately there is a way out of it.
You see, it is really, REALLY simple. Once you stop hating, and put a name on your fear, it vanishes. I came to realize what many more wise people understood before me, that a person who feels secure in his sexuality cannot be homophobic.
A sexually secure man defines his place by creating a clear and present “circle in the sand” Beyond that he will not tread. Within that he is free and secure. What is outside he will respect, but not matter to him anyways. As Shakespeare put it “There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than dreamt of in you philosophy”. We can’t ever try to understand it all and shouldn’t especially in such a complex issue as human sexuality is. We can respect those different from us, though. What you win out of it is a secure and comfortable stance on life which will last for all of your days. The respect and tolerance you give to those outside your circle return in absolute self confidence and understanding. Women tend to notice these things, and then other women will notice the smile your own woman will have day after day after day. It always gets better from there.
Besides, as you grow older you will realize first hand that the real men are those who stand up to their responsibilities in life. The ones who do two jobs to support their families, who keep their word, and are there for their friends. As the saying goes, “When the going gets tough, the tough get going”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

A very important science fiction writer wrote that “Fear is the mind killer.” It is. Don’t let it damage your mind and poison your soul. Freedom is basically freedom from fear.

[Cartaphilus]

I believed that the greeks (as many peoples) in general didn't like the passive part of that sexual option (kataphygon (?) if I remember well), that was ill-considered at all means, even in Tebas or in Sparta. When a boy became a man, that sexual practice was not approved.

But that trait could be only an influence over the fertility of the subject, not over his influence.

[keravnos]

Sexuality in ancient greece in all its manifestations is a contested subject.
Needless to say that I consider that Homosexuality in Hellenistic Greece is way more overstated than it should. I guess this is the price an overall free and accepting society which progressed so much in the arts and sciences has to pay. Allow me some time to find all proper sources and post them here.

-to be edited-