View Full Version : Is it just me or are a lot of units worthless?
Protoman
10-11-2002, 19:51
1. ARTILLERY. I find even fully upgrade ones useless in all but sieging castles. Maybe that is all they were meant to do?
I can understand normal artillery not being good on the battefield, but I thought cannons were historically suppose to be a great counter to mass enemy formations like pikemen.
I think the real problem here is that guns and artillery should not be taking up an entire unit slot.
It's not that the guns themselfs are historically inaccurate in their ability to shell damage apon fixed formations. It's the fact that you can't field enough of them to make a noticable impact. THAT is what kills historical accuracy.
Why should I bother investing unit slots in cannons that will never get as many kills as a comparable unit of infantry would?
SOLUTION FOR AN EXPANSION PACK: You should be able stuff two or four artillery pieces in a single unit slot.
This is more fair if you start looking at it on a number by number basis. IE. Why should 12 cannon crewmen take up a slot that can be fillled by 100 infantry??
To put it simply, artillery doesn't do enough damage compared to what you COULD do with a normal unit. Slot for slot, this makes artllery a bad choice unless attacking a castle.
2. MISSLE WEAPONS. I find them very impractical and ineffective. The games description of longbows as "battle winners" has so far been so far from the truth.
They are difficult to manuver into postition. You have to line them up in one big line otherwise they won't all shoot, Your own troops will block their fire, and they are useless when your infantry engage the enemy target.
Given that even the best missle units only kill a handful of enemy units, I find it hard to justify training them when I could do much more damage with another spearmen unit in it's place.
3. GUNS in particular. Why would anyone EVER use these things over arbs or even longbows?
Slow, inaccurate, low range, etc.
Tell me there is something they are accually good for.
4. CALVARY. I have read all the threads about calvary and people's misconceptions, but I still think that a horde of mounted warriors SHOULD be able to smash apart swordsmen formations. They should also be able to smash pike formations if hit from the flank.
Calvary was also suppose to be good at trampling down the enemy. This is unfortunately not modeled. I think that was the calvaries best weapon against routers was running them down.
They should also cause some trample casualties if they hit formations from the rear or flank.
Cyricist
10-11-2002, 19:59
Calvary? They have combat cows & calves in the game??? O my..
But the point you make about the artillery does raise a point. They small catapult is much handier than the big one.. even for crushing walls! There have been some threads on the use of artillery around. The 'stacking' of artillery is, IMO, not a good idea, since often these contraptions were not exactly mass produced.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/002606.html
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/002699.html
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/002675.html
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001910.html
MonkeyMan
10-11-2002, 20:05
I quite like a canon or two when i can build them, does damage to enemy and enemy moral all the way up to you in defence. Given you can withdraw when they've shot their load (sure there's a double meaning in there somewhere) they do pick up valour after prolonged useage. A good demi with 5+ valour can be really good, especially in the infamous general killed with first shot incidents. Also given that they can be withdraw by the time the enemy reach you, if you have a unit in reserve everyones a winner.
ok, ill start with making multiple units into a single one... why this dont work.. look at the bottom of your screen in battle, there you can see there is only room for 16 units
onto gunpowder, remember than it is early stages for this tech, butive seen it used well, they are perfect for shooting eposed flanks and causing routs, never use them like bows though.
as for cavalry, go read historical write ups, and you soon learn what we all know... how useless they really were
Protoman
10-11-2002, 20:19
Are you saying that accuracy increases with valor? I thought valor only increased their moral, thus lessening their chance at running.
How does artillery re-enforcements work anyway? Does the crew drag their gun in or simply walk in and take up whatever gun is there?
Is there anyway I can make one of my crews take control of a different gun? I hope there is because there have been times where my crew died but the gun still had a lot of precious ammo left.
The accuracy supposedly increases with valour. The answers to the rest of your questions are in the manual, pgs. 55-56.
Quote Originally posted by Cyricist:
Calvary? They have combat cows & calves in the game??? O my..
.[/QUOTE]
ROLF
loved it (but it could be because it's friday and I'm dead bored at work)
Protoman
10-11-2002, 20:31
I am not an expert or anything, and I know some of this has been discussed before...
But this wasn't suppose to be a rant about imbalances, it just turned into that http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
What I was really looking for was some advice about how to effectively use these units. Artillery, guns, archers, and calvary are things I have trouble figuring out how to use effectively.
chunkynut
10-11-2002, 20:31
If we are talking historicly then artillery of the used in the 100 war was used in this way:
The attack on, i think it was Caen but i may be wrong was a big mistake (by french and english).
The english brought around 20,000 troops over with the prince of the time (which i think was edward (please correct me if wrong here)). The english already held brittany and had a conquest force in normandy.
The 20000 troops where a bit of a surprise in Caen and they retreated to the citadel leaving, really, the city itself undefended. The english thinking they'd have a long seige setup camp and sent in welsh cav (hobilars) to stop any escape. The welsh seeing the gates open went for the pillage option helped be a few thousand longbowmen ready for the spoils. Hell broke loose and there was mass disorganisation with the wrong bloodlusted troops trying to take the citadel. Finally a bit of order was restored and they brought up the 3 precious cannon (bombards really) and fired at the gates of the citadel.
All the french did was laugh. This was the army that then left the citadel (realising they couldn't take it) and headed home the only way they had available, towards calias and found themselves winning agincourt. But without using the cannon on the field(by now these were thought as worthless.
I know this is a bit rushed but im at work and ive got stuff to do, but my point is that artillery was never in surplus and never accurate or reliable. You could say a bain to most generals of the time(of the 3 artillery at Caen 2 exploded killing the merc crews of both!)
Don't put artillery in your reserves - you can't reposition them once placed, and once they appear on the map as a re-inforcement they are considered placed, so you can't move 'em.
Don't think there is any way to move crews between siege engines - if you want to make sure they fire all their ammo, you'll need to protect them for a while - then you can withdraw them to be replaced by a non-artillery re-inforcement unit.
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There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers...
Protoman
10-11-2002, 20:35
RJV, you are probably right.
I guess my head is stuck in napoleanic era fighting with static musket lines and dozens (even hundreds) of artillery guns in support.
Don Megel
10-11-2002, 22:16
As for archers I find them quite useful. Unless you have Arbs they dont do too much damage but to hurt moral. If you have them in numbers however then things start happening. By a strange turn of events I was in the middle east wiht a TON of archers (5 or 6 units I belive), a good amount of cav and some inf units. THe Turks came and I butchered entire units before they reached my lines.
If you use archers in mass they are deadly.
I agree about the seige engians. THey where only good for seiges (Hense the name). However I try to have 1 or 2 in my defensive battles for a kind of long range archery unit. I just find a unit that isnt moveing or one that is in front of alot of other units and let her rip. The bounces will take out people behind your target.
NOt a battle winner by any means but a helper...
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Praise the Lord for He is mighty and great!
Protoman
10-11-2002, 22:53
Really? I have had terrible success with even fully upgraded longbows.
How are you positioning them?
The problem is that the enemy just closes the gap too fast.
Sure it might make a decent impact if I'm up on a hill, but not enough to justify the 4-6 units of archers required to pull it off.
Still no use for handcannons though?
[This message has been edited by Protoman (edited 10-11-2002).]
Sjakihata
10-11-2002, 22:59
why not just make 16 slots for each type of unit?
slot #1: sword, shock troops
slot #2: spears
slot #3: cavelry
slot #4: ranged units
and when you are fighting there should be added four more buttons, one for each slot. Then you click it and the units of the one slot will appear like we are used to it...
Then we can really get epic battles.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Protoman
10-11-2002, 23:10
Quote Originally posted by Sjakihata Akechi:
why not just make 16 slots for each type of unit?
slot #1: sword, shock troops
slot #2: spears
slot #3: cavelry
slot #4: ranged units
and when you are fighting there should be added four more buttons, one for each slot. Then you click it and the units of the one slot will appear like we are used to it...
Then we can really get epic battles.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]
Now THAT is a great idea, assuming they can breach the technical limitations.
But I would limit each type to 8 slots instead of 16.
That would make archers and artillery MUCH more useful as a support role because you would not have to sacrifice frontline troops.
They would no longer be trying in vain to fill the shoes of what could have been another ifantry unit.
As the French in the 1300's, I have been trying to determine the best way to capture Valencia. About 2500 Almoheds are holed up in this river province. I have the rest of Spain but have been unwilling to attempt a river crossing to take Valencia.
I have just built 3 cannons. I think with the cannons, I can cross the river.
So there is one use for cannons.
For river crossings do what I used to do in STW. Snuggle up to your side of the river with all your missile units arrayed along the riverbank. Send an expendable but quick unit across the bridge to use as bait and lure the AI into attacking them. Since its the Almohads they should have a good amount of light cavalry which they'll send in to do the job. You have to time this right but retreat the bait unit back across the bridge before they're massacred and the ensuing missile fire from your missile troops will annhilate any enemy units looking for a quick kill. Keep a spear or good defense unit in formation ready on your end of the bridge to receive anyone foolish or unfortunate enough to make it across to your side. Do this a few times or only once if you think this is too much like cheating against the AI. This bait and lure tactic is great for thinning the enemy's cavalry ranks and making your bridge crossing alot safer. Take out enough cavalry and you'll be able to rush your own cavalry across and position them on the enemy's flanks for harrassment or an eventual charge.
AgentBif
10-12-2002, 00:26
Quote Originally posted by Protoman:
1. ARTILLERY. I find even fully upgrade ones useless in all but sieging castles. Maybe that is all they were meant to do?
...
2. MISSLE WEAPONS. I find them very impractical and ineffective. The games description of longbows as "battle winners" has so far been so far from the truth.
[/QUOTE]
Well, in SP I find missiles quite handy. And for defense, I have found that a catapult or two is well worth the unit slot they take up. If reenforcements are available, you can withdraw the arty and have them replaced by something else once the enemy has closed, but I have yet to need to do this.
I saved a replay of an SP battle I had yesterday against some 1500 assorted Elmos. I fielded 6 missiles (2 pavXbow, 2 arbies, 2 longbow) and 4 catapults in addition to some spears and bills to provide a protective screen. I camped a hill in the back. The missiles and cats just shredded the enemy... In the end I suffered 4 casualties from friendly fire and took out some some 400 enemy. I waited for the second wave but it never came. The field in front of the hill was a giant oval patch of Elmo bodies.
I suppose I could email that replay to people if they were interested... Or I could make it available for the files section of this website.
One of the reasons I like cats is they cause fear. If I pack all my units in tight around the cats, I find that the enemy often wavers and never even engages my front screen (assuming my missile units have been inflicting casualties).
Finally, in terms of longbows... I always take 2 for my main battle armies and I carefully manage their ammo usage. I find them very handy for shredding enemy heavy cavalry (which are usually the units the enemy nobles are in).
In MP, I'd agree that missiles and arty aren't a viable approach in this game.
BTW, it's kind of fun running custom SP battles with like 4 pikes and 12 artillery units against 16 enemy melee hordes. It gives you some idea what the diff arty units are capable of. I have found catapults, culverens, and serpentines to be capable of shredding the AI. (If you hover over the enemy units during the bombardment, the sound affects are amazing!)
Quote
4. CALVARY. I have read all the threads about calvary and people's misconceptions, but I still think that a horde of mounted warriors SHOULD be able to smash apart swordsmen formations. They should also be able to smash pike formations if hit from the flank.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, cavalry as implemented in this game are not a viable tactical approach. It's handy to have a couple to chew up routers or stranded archers, but that's pretty much all they're good for.
Reality was different.
bif
[This message has been edited by AgentBif (edited 10-11-2002).]
Wolfgrin
10-12-2002, 00:31
I'm surprised to read that people don't have success with missile troops. Try this: I build a virtually moveable fortress of spear units with cav on the flanks and 4-5 missile units arrayed behind the spears. The missile troops (usually arbs or longbows) get muy mucho kills, as in hundreds. The trick is not to let the enemy around the flanks, but good cav and a reserve of MAA or spears usually solve that problem.
Go forth and kill.
Artillery is pretty useless. First, you really dont have to siege anything ever, most of the castles fall in 1-3 years anyway. Second, it sucks compared to any other unit on defense, and has nil use on offense except on sieges. I find myself using the artillery that causes fear occassionally, but mostly just for the coolness factor. I love seeing the stuff skip across the landscape.
Cavalry is not as good as it should be I dont think. I'd do the following to fix it: non-cavalry charge bonuses should be reduced, cavalry defense should be increased, and they shouldnt suffer a facing penalty when trying to reform for another charge.
Missle units are a mixed bag. They own on defense, period. Arbalesters inparticular. They chew up the opposition and their ammo lasts a LONG time. On offense, it depends on the enemy you are fighting, and the archers/longbowman are better because they dont need unimpeded LOS to fire effectively.
olaf
MizuKokami
10-12-2002, 01:04
maybe artillery could be placed in a place that isn't very defenceable, as bait. with your army in such a position to move into attacking anything that goes to kill them. also, moving your army in the right way, i find makes the enemy move in another way. just try to find what causes the enemy to move into range of your artillery, perferrably in a way that puts your artillary at a flanking position. and if there's anyway you can have them concealled, holding fire until they are in close range, the sudden shock effect should or could be nice. i'll try this and let you know how it works.
AgentBif
10-12-2002, 01:09
Quote Originally posted by olaf:
Artillery is pretty useless. First, you really dont have to siege anything ever, most of the castles fall in 1-3 years anyway.[/QUOTE]
Think about it... That's 1-3 years where you're only earning about half the sector's value. Often that can add up to like 1000 florins... It's more cost effective to assault most of the time.
bif
Protoman
10-12-2002, 01:14
What is the best way to position pavise arbs so that they can ALL fire on incoming enemies (flat groung). I see most people use ranks of 2, will any more block the back ranks from firing?
Also, how many ranks deep can I have longbowmen and still effectively fire at incoming targets?
Protoman
10-12-2002, 01:16
Maybe I have just been using the missles wrong, but I still haven't seen ANYONE effectively use handcannons.
This is unfortunate because I thought they would be cool.
Wolfgrin
10-12-2002, 02:06
Historically, the early handgunners sucked. Period. However, I would like to see the arqebusiers perform a bit better.
Cyricist
10-12-2002, 02:45
Quote Originally posted by Protoman:
What I was really looking for was some advice about how to effectively use these units. Artillery, guns, archers, and calvary are things I have trouble figuring out how to use effectively.[/QUOTE]
Yes.. especially that Calvary.. How DO you use them? And who produces them? What's the prerequisite? A dairy farm? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
My opinion about these units in Single Player:
1. Artillery: they are not any where near useless. Of course, they are not primary troops. I always have to bring the same number of combat units to replace those cannons when they are out of ammo.
- Cannons: good for siege and offensive battle. They are not good for close range.
- Siege: my starting line would be 4 bombards/siege cannons, 3 serpentines, 8 mix of mortar/demi-culv/culv. The key is to aim high, hit low (or hit higher), means I will aim at a target which if I miss, I still can hit something behind/in front/on the sides of it.
- Offensive battle: I would use 4-5 serpentines and 2-3 demi-culv/culv. Aim at the front unit in the center of the enemy formation. Never shot at a fast moving target. If firing at the moving formation (not a single unit), aim at the leading unit. Don't change target for each shot.[/list]
- Early siege weapons: ballista, catapult, trebuchet, mangonel are good in both defense and offense at close range. They are also good in bridge offense and defense. They are not powerful enough to break larger castle.
2. Missiles: archers (except the Longbow) are not "battle winner" as they could be in STW where armour is not made of steel plates. There are a few point where archers may not be programmed as they should such as lead moving target (in more experience unit), amount of damage over range, wind and rain effect, but in general, they are what they should be. Archers are only effective against non-armour or low armour troops and archer can only soften up the enemy (but not to demolish the enemy). Crossbow and arbalest come into play to deal with better armoured troops. Since the firing machanism is different, I can't expect to use them in the same way I use archers. Missile units help to give my melee troops a better change to win, but missile troops are not there to win the battle by themselves.
3. Guns: gun are there to deal with even better armoured troops. However, if guns did't have weakness back then, they would have dominated the battlefield and became the weapon of choice for all armies. And, who would bother to train other kind of troop that would be killed by gun anyway.
4. Cavalry: the only complain that I have is cavalry can't break formation in some cases where they could have. However, I use at least 2 cavalry in all kinds of battle. Cavalry are definitely not a "bulldozer" type of unit that would roll over everyone who dare to stand against them, but they could become "battle winner" when they hit their intended target at the right place and the right moment.
I am glad that some of the troops stats are very easy to change. If I want a certain type of unit to perform in a certain level, I just go ahead and change the stats.
When is come to playing game, I know when I need to flush the history and real facts out of my brain to enjoy the game that I chose to buy and play.
[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 10-12-2002).]
Jo_Beare
10-12-2002, 08:23
Artillery, archers, and arquebusiers worthless? You have to be kidding. I attacked the Almohads with 5 demi-culverin, 3 arbalests, 2 arquibusiers, 1 lithuanian cavalry, 1 boyer, and 4 halberdiers. I think I killed 980 Almohads and didn't lose any of my men. Forgot to save the replay. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif
Cannon and Culverin are better offensive weapons than defensive. Since the defender likes to stay stationary with deep lines it is fairly easy knock out a fair amount of the enemy before your troops even get close.
JoBeare
anymapkoku
10-12-2002, 13:40
arbalesters are the key to beating spearmen.
MagyarKhans Cham
10-12-2002, 14:30
are they? interesting
anymapkoku
10-12-2002, 16:41
Yes, they are.
While an arba won't beat a spear in a straight up 1vs1 fight on even ground in the open, an arba will shoot the spear to death which forces the spear to have to rush. When he rushes he is fighting on your ground, and on certain maps such as agincourt or plainsinland, spears are not better than swords(which backup your arbas) in all places on that map. This means that 7 swords/1 arba will beat 8 spears if fighting in certain areas.
[quote]That's 1-3 years where you're only earning about half the sector's value. Often that can add up to like 1000 florins... It's more cost effective to assault most of the time.[quote]
True. But, the downside of that assault is that you have to actually have the siege engines. So you have to build the appropriate buildings to be able to produce the units you need, and have them nearby, to actually be able to use them in your siege. I find it much easier to just wait my opponent out then to add another micromanaging factor to a game already cram packed with it.
olaf
Btw, a lot of units are not useless - they just don't get used in mp because they are surpassed by upgraded versions of themselves that in singleplayer you would normally not have available from the start of an Early period game. The units like peasants, spearmen, urban militia, etc, have a great amount of worth in the sp game. They are just pointless in mp since there are stronger, better units to take in their stead.
Quote Originally posted by JRock:
Btw, a lot of units are not useless - they just don't get used in mp because they are surpassed by upgraded versions of themselves that in singleplayer you would normally not have available from the start of an Early period game. The units like peasants, spearmen, urban militia, etc, have a great amount of worth in the sp game. They are just pointless in mp since there are stronger, better units to take in their stead.[/QUOTE]
Well said. Well, apart from Peasants http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I find the bog standard Urban Militia quite useful reserve line units in the early era when used to charge enemy spears fighting your own spearmen. I get nightmares when I remember the battle in which the mark 2 UM, the Militia Sergeants AND ONLY 10 OF THEM AT THAT, flanked and butchered my heir's unit of Royal Knights.
TomThumbKOP
10-15-2002, 03:56
There is one major drawback to waiting out a siege especially in the end game. The castle in the province will lose 1 level *every time*. If you assault instead, it won't lose any level at all.
Hakonarson
10-15-2002, 04:25
Quote Originally posted by Cyricist:
Calvary? They have combat cows & calves in the game??? O my..
[/QUOTE]
don't be so silly - he means he keeps getting crucified!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
TomThumbKOP,
The castles lose an upgrade, not necessarily a level. If you have a keep with a curtain wall upgrade, and you sit out the siege, you will lose the curtain wall upgrade, but the keep will not be degraded to fort. However, if you have a keep with no upgrades, it wil become fort, motte & bailey.
deejayvee
10-15-2002, 05:23
Quote Is it just me or are a lot of units worthless?[/QUOTE]
It's you.
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