CA staff - please keep posting!

[econ21]

I noticed a couple of posts from CA staff that indicate they are getting disheartened by feedback to their posts on this forum. I just want to say that I and probably most users of this forum really appreciate their participation here. Their posts can be really useful in clarifying game mechanics, understanding the reasons for design choices and getting an insight into the future development of the Total War games. This kind of user-designer interaction seems relatively rare with computer games (a few examples were/are Talonsoft, Black Isle and Battlefront) but almost invariably signals a quality product with a committed fan base.

To fellow users, I think we should be a little careful how we tread - we can vigorously debate points with each other, as to us it is just a game (like heated debates about sports teams etc), but with CA staff we should be careful. I know I would be touchy about lots of anonymous people of varied experience, expertise and manners criticising many aspects of my work in public! I don't know exactly how to strike the right balance, but reflecting on this before pressing "post message" might be useful.

[Rosacrux]

Criticism is one thing. Trashing someone's work is another. And dismissing his presence here, where he/she/it is trying to provide some help to us, eager to know everything, gamers, is also something completely different.

Devs, we appreciate what you are doing. You ain't no sacred cow - not for me, that is - so occasionaly you'll receive some critical stance and vocabulary.

But I appreciate what you are doing here, and I appreciate moreso the great game you have provided us with (not that we didn't paid for it, of course... but... oh, anyway, I've paid a great deal of money for rubbish, so I think even if you charged 80 euros - instead of 40 - for this magnificent game, I'd be happy to pay).

[Swoosh So]

I have to admit despite some minor niggles in sp the game is completely playable and i cant think of another game ill buy until the exp pack! Alot of peeps overlook the major differences between shoggy and mtw, I mean look how much they alow us to mod now! Very nice of them listening to what the customer wants, As for the patch well i can wait alot of work must have went into all those units. and i for one realise the hard work they put into making a great game,

[Hosakawa Tito]

I agree with all of the above. Treating people with respect seems to come hard for a few who post here, which certainly points out the offenders maturity level. I hope the devs realize this and consider the source. I also hope our moderators will step in and do what they have to do to curtail this unacceptable behavior.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[maroule]

I agree of course, I've already posted a few words of how the lack of respect for other people's work was getting on my nerves.

I think it has to do, strangely, with improving products/services. When I first started to buy computer games, for my amiga in 1990, 90% of them were so bug infested that I had to return them immediately. I remember the overwelming gratitude when one finally worked... It's been more than 2 years now I did not have to return a game, although patches were sometimes welcomed. Yet I am astounded by the amount of people requiring a patch NOW, as if a God given right. Well, the game works for me, and if it did not, I think I could wait for some time without blowing a blood vessel. As for rubbishing the work done because 'the uphill bonus is WRONG', I just don't get it.

Anyway, we know what happened to respect (shot in the head) and gratitude for a good product (hanged), it now seems that patience (drowned) and politeness (impaled) also passed away violently. Christ, I feel 100 years old.

It could be a generation thing, as I see that with everything (moaners rule the world). But I'm sure the Devs, praise their sensitive souls (lick, lick), know we want their feedback and can ignore the rants.

[cart6566]

Yep, I have cringed at some of the responses to dev postings. Not making excuses for anyone, but you get this kind of feedback when you release a game that has a high immersion value, and the immersion value of MTW is off the chart. People really get wrapped up in the game, so in a way the rants are kind of a back-handed compliment. Re-reading your post and counting to 10 while taking deep breaths is recommended before hitting the post button.

Two observations for the patience-challenged on this board:

1) The CA folks have little input as to release dates with a huge publisher like Activision.

2) Opinions are just that: opinions, and yours is probably not as informed as the actual creators of the game when it comes to design decisions. I, for one, trust the design decisions made by the developers because I have thus far had an enjoyable experience playing the game. For some folks, knowing every single rule and coding quirk in the game, and the reasons behind them, ruins the fun.

3) If you don't like the way something works in the game, if it's ruining your fun, just mod it. The devs have their hands full as is. Why ask them to do your work for you, when modability has been included in the game?

[RJV]

I know this thread is getting a little arse-licky, but I have to agree with the above. I CAN sympathise with the 'must have the patch now' brigade, because as a software dev myself I am under pressure to produce stuff that works when it is released - a not unrealistic requirement when you're expecting the general public to fork out their hard-earned cash for something.
On the other hand, with my 'software dev' hat on, I tend to throw in with the guys (and gals - any gals?) at CA. They have delivered a superb game IMO. How many other games have had me sitting at my desk planning the Polish conquest of North Africa, and wondering whether King Lezcek's secret incest is going to cause me a problem???
For all those desperate for a patch, I say 'Just be patient'. It WILL come, and as Gil (I think) said, no-one wants to hang onto a patch if it's ready to ship - it'll ship when it's ready. And please, can we cut out the insults to the devs - no-one wants to see them abandon the most constructive MTW site on the web. We're all going to feel a little foolish if one day we realise we've been discussing, evaluating and suggesting, only to find out that nobody's listening...


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There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers...

[TheWay]

people like and care about your game, and many of them are young, and as developers you should see that, and learn to filter, instead of expecting people to always stroke your egos with mind-numbing praises, which is precisely what a $10 parrot is for.

[maroule]

Quote Originally posted by TheWay:
people like and care about your game, and many of them are young, and as developers you should see that, and learn to filter, instead of expecting people to always stroke your egos with mind-numbing praises, which is precisely what a $10 parrot is for. [/QUOTE]

c'mon, be fair, they're not asking for that, actually they're not asking for anything : it is just that some of us feel the effort should be made by pre puberic teenagers to better control their rants, and not by devs to 'control their egos'. Plus not all 'youngs' behave like twits.

But let's not make to much of a fuss about it, the majority of participants are actually trying to contribute and offer constructive feedback.



[This message has been edited by maroule (edited 10-14-2002).]

[GilJaysmith]

Quote Originally posted by TheWay:
people like and care about your game, and many of them are young, and as developers you should see that, and learn to filter, instead of expecting people to always stroke your egos with mind-numbing praises, which is precisely what a $10 parrot is for. [/QUOTE]

Noted, although I disagree with the implicit argument that people who do things wrong should have to change themselves less than people who are confronted by that behaviour.

Also, I should point out that you're doing the "insulting everyone who praises us" thing again ;-) People have the right to be pleased with and grateful for what they bought, and we have the right to enjoy some praise for it as well as some duty to hear and examine the criticism. There's no other way we can find out from actual buyers whether it was worth the effort, and simply sitting back and counting the cash isn't quite as soul-satisfying a reward as hearing someone go ape about how much they love it.

On which note: I'll pass on all the kind words to the team, and thank you all http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Sword_Monkey]

$10 parrot? Where can I get one of those? I could make a mint reselling parrots if I could get them for $10 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Seriously, though. I agree that people should be respectful and only offer constructive criticism if you actually want devs to listen to your side. A thoughtful, well written critique will be read and, at least, considered. Rants about how pissed you are, and how stupid they are for coding this piece of %&*@# is not getting any point across except that your angry. I know if I were a dev I wouldn't stop posting because of stuff like this, but I'd certainly stop reading your posts.

[chunkynut]

Hear Hear (or is it 'Here Here') .... f*&k knows.

Thanks to the devs and thanks to all the other (responsible) posters. You've all given me divertion and fun.

Alot of ppl do mouth off at what they see as 'arse sucking' but i see it as genuine praise. And they may well be spotty teenagers who generally have quite a bit of angst!! I loved those days! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by chunkynut (edited 10-14-2002).]

[MagyarKhans Cham]

Simon... Appleton. ? sadly our GWIS is busy.

still ur right on your points, perhaps we cna see it this way. there is a thin line between love and hate (sellers and buyers) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Footen]

Im not surprised there are some bugs in Medieval. It's actually two great games, one strategic and one tactical, using different mechanics. That probably means double coding? and also more bugs, naturally.

Most companies would be satisfied with just the 3d game and some more "Historical campaigns" were you fight 20 battles one after another.

This game is so great that even after two corrupt savegames I just said, "gosh darn" and started my third campaign! I would never do that with any other game.. but if the third one crash Im gonna do something else until the patch is released, like read this board or something http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[Wart]

It has struck me as strange that even though this site has a lets all be friends kind of policy, that asks that users be courteous to each other, the Devs seem to have been de-personified (is that the right word?) by some.
If some of the comments that i've seen aimed at the devs, had been aimed at a clan or individual it would have started all sorts of trouble, & probably wouldnt have been tolerated (not that i'm having a go at the mods, mind you).

Im not suggesting that it's appropriate (or necessary) to brown-nose to the devs, but we are discussing their work here, and some users of this board seriously need to learn the difference between constructive criticism and plain rudeness. - Even game developers have feelings (at least thats what I heard! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif)

Given how ugly .com become, I think it's especially important that we don't drive the devs away from this community, as their input, not to mention their attention, is an extremely valuable thing, for the evolution of the game & for us as fans.

Now, I suspect (& sincerely hope) that they are big enough to ignore the muppets that post here, but is it really worth risking pissing them off? after all, they're under no obligation to come here and answer our questions!

One final thing: My current pet hate, threads moaning about the delays in the patch. Whinging is NOT gonna make it come out any sooner, anyone who visits here regularly WILL be amongst the first to find out when it's released.
The thing that really annoys me is that IF the patch was rushed out to appease these whining pillocks, I can almost guarentee that they would be the same ones that would moan the loudest when it didnt fix ALL the major bugs! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Rant over! Please excuse if this post is utter gibberish, i'm kinda running a fever at the mo! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by Wart (edited 10-14-2002).]

[Gregoshi]

I seem to recall a post over at .com in which CA said they would try to have more of a presence there than they had in the past. More presence there is one of the reasons we see them less here. The other is that they are busy with the patch. I don't read many threads at .com but I do see Gil, eat cold steel and TheShogun frequently online over there.

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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

[MajorFreak]

busy with the patch still? hmmmmmmmm...must be the Activision QA team asking silly questions. heeeeee

I think the important thing is to help the n00bs when they ask questions so frequently, debating cool topics like "historical accuracy" and "historical validity", not to mention arguing for this suggestion or against...even passionately so.

Things to avoid is complaining about the whiners, because that just encourages trolls like nothing else. *g* Devs get picked on, devs can't spare time to answer all queries/feedback, devs develop a game and community feedback is a really cool asset to have.

It's really neat to see the devs get misty-eyed when someone posts a personal account of their impression of their game...doesn't happen as often as a blue moon, but hey! *g*

[Britainicus]

Sometimes on forums people can mistakenly come across as hostile or people are down right rude. I can't see the point myself in slagging of the "Devs," it's great that they spend time listening and conversing to some of their public especially as "THE PATCH" is due soon-ish, maybe. It's also good PR for them.
IMO the game is damn fine as it stands even with some of the weird nuances that the games has. (I recently had 26 revolts in 4 years - the peasant death toll rises!!! It's fun and enables you too fairly accurately re-create Medieval battles. This is one of the most in depth PC games that I've come across. Most people would give their hind teeth to be a "Dev" I know I would. Need the floor sweeping CA?
Anyway chin chin "Devs"

[longjohn2]

I think for myself it's inevitable that as time goes on I post less. I just have less to say. Many of the game mechanisms have been discussed already, and there are many members of the community who can answer newcomers questions as well as I.
I do continue to read this forum most evenings ( personally I don't post from work), and if I find an interesting thread and have something to continue, then I'll post.

[hrvojej]

Two things:

1) This is one of the most civilized forums I have come across, and that's why I keep coming back. Virtually, the only excessive behaviour is "still" game-related. This said,

2) Imho, NOBODY should be abused/thrashed/shouted down in the discussions. Some people do this because they don't have to meet the people they're talking to, some people do it in real life as well, but overall, a common decency should be respected in public, even though you might not do it at home. Although percieved that way, the net should not be a venting place for frustrations. It's one thing to trashtalk with your friends, who know you etc., but with people you don't know you should be double polite, shouldn't you? You might be a paying customer, and you might have critiques that you would like to share with the world, but there is a way and a manner to say everyhting. After all, would you be posting the topics that directly target CA if there is absolutely no chance that anybody from CA would read it? And I know I probably wouldn't be putting up with this way of critique and never read the fora again, and I doubt that people who actually throw comments in that way would put up with it for a second if the comments were directed at them.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Since when is talking and treating others with respect a negative thing?, ie "arse licking" I believe was the term used. If you want respect you have to give respect too. If your old enough to type a complete sentence in this forum, then your old enough to know what I'm talking about.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[This message has been edited by Hosakawa Tito (edited 10-14-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Hosakawa Tito (edited 10-14-2002).]

[barocca]

The game is great, 2 games in one package, value IMHO,

fantastic replayability,

I have found that some times are better than others for online connectivity, and we must admit a whole lot better than the EA servers which would shut down for days at a time every second weekend!
(and sometimes be down for a week or more!!!)
The drops do not seem to be any more frequent than the EA servers, which used to happen MORE than one game in three for me.

I have it runing on TNT and GeForce machines here, fine on both, once i realised that the latest version of DirectX does not like either of my video cards, and used the DirectX version from game CD#2 - no more problems!

I save every turn - or every 5 turns with a quicksave in between, save corruptions happen once in a blue moon here, and when they do i merely go back to my save, I know this will be fixed, for now it's a very minor nuisance,
It is far more likely that I'll have to go out, and shut down mid battle than suffer a save file corruption! Real Life - Grrr...
(Actually power interruptions here have happened more frequently than save corruptions or CTD's for that matter!)

The Developers contributions here and at .com is exceptional, and in my experience the level of Developer participation in our discussions is unsurpassed!

For the upcoming patch there are so many fixes listed, and probably a whole swag more not listed, that quality control must be vigorously checked and perfect, this takes time!
Anyone who has done coding on any level will understand how hard it can be to find one mistake in hundreds and thousands of lines of code.
Heck, we have a hard time tracking down a bug when we introduce one into a mod down in the Dungeon - and thats nowhere near as complex as coding!

I love the game, as it stands,
the capability to tweak SP settings to suit your own style is exceptional - naturally we always want more ;-)

We have a grand strategic game, a tactical battle game and the capability of taking Tactical battles online to test our percieved skills against human (unpredictable) opponents!


GilJay, Target, Eat Cold Steel, LongJohn, and anyone i've missed - http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Great Work.
Make the patch perfect please http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
(take all the time it needs)

[ToranagaSama]

I'm just wondering if anyone can see a correlation between these types of threads and attacks on CA with the Tactical MP/"I onlty bought the game for MP" crowd?

Also, what's happending in the forum is SURE to increase as the popularity of TW increases. The sad truth is that the majority of the "gaming" crowd behaves online less than maturely.

The Strategy/TBS crowd being a LARGE expection! So, as TW moves to encompass this larger "gaming" community, can anything else be expected? Many a newsgroup and forum has been "ruined" as things got out of hand in a variety of ways.

So, the question for the TW.org community is how best to deal with this inevitability; AND how to "possibly" involve the Devs in the solution?

Anyone around from the ole CompuServe forums?