Upgrades making units too strong?

[EasyCo506]

I wanted to try something today. I played as Saka, with Makedonia as the enemy. I had four medium eastern cavalry (around 400) against one unit of Hellenic levy phalanx (about 200).

The phalanx had three gold chevrons, fully upgraded armor, and fully upgraded weapons. My cavalry were normal, no chevrons, no upgrades.

Here's how the battle went:

So I used my first unit to distract them, while my other three units went behind them (one on each flank, and one at the back). The phalanx took the bait, and started to charge my cavalry at the front. At that moment, all cavalry in the back charged. That group of 200 spearmen got caught with their spears down, swords out, and surrounded on both flanks and the back by more than 300 cavalry. With all this against them, I thought for sure the battle was one...

... Until they entered god mode and started slaughtering my cavalry. Seriously, what in the world? I use tactics to my advantage: I pull one unit back, and charge, I pull a second back, charge, etc. The phalanx is broken. They are out of formation, and don't even have spears out. And yet they win. After killing about 69 of them, I lose 350 of my cavalry, with the rest running in fear.

Please, I don't want to sound like a sore looser, and I know that having better equipment is an advantage, but this isn't right. If I charge a levy phalanx with about 200 more men then they have, on the flanks, and with their formation broken and swords drawn, I shouldn't lose. Their captain was surrounded by (I kid you not) ten cavalry, and without getting killed himself, killed about six or seven before going back to the unit (he was cut off by himself).

So why should I even bother to beat a well equipped unit (since I know I will see at least one) since I can't even kill one with double the number, and using all the tactics I could think of. Are upgrades supposed to make the units unstoppable?

[Korlon]

It's more likely that their veterancy was the reason for your demise. With three gold chevrons and bronze equipment, they effectively have +10 to attack and defense, not to mention godly morale. To beat them, you must use charges repeatedly, and to their rear as the 9 increase to defense skill doesn't apply there. Do not let your cavalry stay in the fight.

[EasyCo506]

They have gold armor and weapon as well.

Just tried again.

Due to a bug which, for some odd reason, causes the phalanx to constantly reform again and again, I was able to situate all four cavalry units right at their rear, and attacked, moved away, charged, etc. I got them down all the way to 186 (about 70 or so killed). This is rather ironic, seeing as how I had 70 cavalry left at the end when the last of my cavalry ran.

Anyone else get the constant reform bug?

Edit: and yes, I kept on charging the rear of the enemy, making sure they didn't stay but a few seconds each time they charged. To make sure they weren't in melee for too long.

[Watchman]

Given that the max equipement upgrades you can normally get are +1 ("copper" colour IIRC), I daresay that phalanx had been spawned from a city revolt. Those cheerfully sport gold-chevron exp levels and gold- or silver upgrade gear as the norm, and there's nothing that can be done about it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Considering that the OP wrote "I wanted to try something" ... my money is on a custom battle of sorts, though. :grin:

[craziii]

phalanx units are a pain. ever fought against elite ones? I think it will take 1 whole army stack to just kill one of them if they are fully upgraded 9 exp. they simply cannot be flanked, they always turn around and fight your units. the only cavalry that can survive a rear charge are cataphracts, most others will die on the pike's butt end. if you charge from the side, 1/3 of your units will end up in front of the extended pikes, ouch. I mainly use missile troops vs them, they kill them nicely from the back.

[EasyCo506]

Half right. Half a stack of Persian archers (2000) took them down to size. :)
Have you ever seen 2000 fire arrows getting shot at only 200 people?

And yes, it was a custom battle.

[antisocialmunky]

If you want to see an epic unit, get a gold chevron slinger.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Ouch! Gold chevron slingers.....worse than medieval longbowmen.....

[mcantu]

I wanted to try something today. I played as Saka, with Makedonia as the enemy. I had four medium eastern cavalry (around 400) against one unit of Hellenic levy phalanx (about 200).

The phalanx had three gold chevrons, fully upgraded armor, and fully upgraded weapons. My cavalry were normal, no chevrons, no upgrades.

Here's how the battle went:

So I used my first unit to distract them, while my other three units went behind them (one on each flank, and one at the back). The phalanx took the bait, and started to charge my cavalry at the front. At that moment, all cavalry in the back charged. That group of 200 spearmen got caught with their spears down, swords out, and surrounded on both flanks and the back by more than 300 cavalry. With all this against them, I thought for sure the battle was one...

... Until they entered god mode and started slaughtering my cavalry. Seriously, what in the world? I use tactics to my advantage: I pull one unit back, and charge, I pull a second back, charge, etc. The phalanx is broken. They are out of formation, and don't even have spears out. And yet they win. After killing about 69 of them, I lose 350 of my cavalry, with the rest running in fear.

Please, I don't want to sound like a sore looser, and I know that having better equipment is an advantage, but this isn't right. If I charge a levy phalanx with about 200 more men then they have, on the flanks, and with their formation broken and swords drawn, I shouldn't lose. Their captain was surrounded by (I kid you not) ten cavalry, and without getting killed himself, killed about six or seven before going back to the unit (he was cut off by himself).

So why should I even bother to beat a well equipped unit (since I know I will see at least one) since I can't even kill one with double the number, and using all the tactics I could think of. Are upgrades supposed to make the units unstoppable?


This was a custom battle right? You didnt just upgrade their equipment; you gave them +9 to attack and +9 to defense skill with those 3 gold chevrons. You severely unbalanced the units (as much as possible actually) and then complain that you lost? I dont get it...:wall:

[Watchman]

Those weren't really that much to write home about against armoured troops, you know.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Giving those Greeks gold chevrons made them into a 'god unit'. Basically they were as tough and experienced as Alexander's phalanx at the battle of Arbela! (You know, the guys that beat a Persian army 5 times their own size.)

To get gold chevrons the hard way in EB an infantry unit has to win about 30 battles without suffering heavy losses. Any unit that achieves that is going to be 'beyond elite'!

Of course you lost, you bloody fool! ;)

[craziii]

has anyone actually got an unit to gold status and retains it? I got an equites unit to 8 exp and when I retrained it, it went down to 2, I think I drop a tear that turn. it was so hard training that unit, that was when I gave up trying to train super units. all the hard work of 100 + turns, more than 50+ battles, gone.

[Dhampir]

Because I suck, I don't think the weapon/armor upgrades are effective enough. So, I go into the buildings file and make one of the temples give +2 for armor and weapons and +3 for missile (so everyone can get level 3 upgrades) and I make those upgrades for my faction only.

This way, despite my poor decisions, I can win since a mid-grade unit from my faction can defeat an elite unit from any other.

If I were Catholic, I'd need to say eleventybillion hail marys or else I'd go to hell.:embarassed:

[Xurr]

has anyone actually got an unit to gold status and retains it? I got an equites unit to 8 exp and when I retrained it, it went down to 2, I think I drop a tear that turn. it was so hard training that unit, that was when I gave up trying to train super units. all the hard work of 100 + turns, more than 50+ battles, gone.


I have a horse archer army that I use for hit and run tactics that has a couple 2 gold chevron units in it. Of course that comes from combining experienced damaged units and not retraining them.

[EasyCo506]

This was a custom battle right? You didnt just upgrade their equipment; you gave them +9 to attack and +9 to defense skill with those 3 gold chevrons. You severely unbalanced the units (as much as possible actually) and then complain that you lost? I dont get it...:wall:
I could have sworn all those additions to attack and defense are lost when the enemy is attacked on the back or on the flanks.

I didn't know it stayed either way.

[Watchman]

They also got like +9 (at least) morale, and of course the +3 to armour is omnidirectional defense anyway. Plus, if an unit has had the time to "form a front" against a flank or rear attack (you know, the outermost guys have turned to face the foes in the "ready" stance or something comparable) they'll of course be getting their full defense skills and whatnot to boot.

The point is, with those kinds of "buffs" you made those phalangites THE 300 Spartans. As phalanxes can be frustratingly resilient as is, that they kind of mangled your cavalry should come as no surprise.