Simulating the Second Punic War

[QuintusSertorius]

This is a question related to my Guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=101787), but also my current 1.1 game as well (although I'm over a hundred turns away from it). I'm trying to stick to history within the confines of the engine, which is easy in most respects except one: Hannibal.

In another mod I did have the game start in 218BC and Hannibal was in the Alps, but he wandered back to Spain. I suspect the AI would do the same with a scripted Hannibal and his army.

So to the question. How could you make this work? Would some scripted rebellions help at all (is that possible)? I'm thinking Mediolanium and Patavium either going rebel, or defecting to Qarthdast might at least prevent a spawned Hannibal bailing for Spain, since there's something to protect.

Then similarly scripted rebellions/defections for Capua and Tarentum, along with some reinforcements for Hannibal later on. How might you then get him to leave once things get bad in Spain?

Can you accurately represent delaying tactics and avoiding battle in the RTW engine?

Really I'm after ideas on how this could be done, or indeed how people have already done it in their games.

Also any thoughts on the composition of a single-stack that could represent Hannibal's army?

[chairman]

Possible composition for Hannibal's army in 218:

1 Elephantes Hulaioi Liboukoi (the small, only driver one)
2 Loricati Scutari/Iberi Scutari
2 Iberi Caetrati/Gaeroas/Peltastai
2 Numidian Skirmishing Cavalry
2 Numidian Archers/Slingers/Skirmishers
4 Libyan Spearmen/Liby-Phoenician Infantry/Elite African Infantry
2 Iberi Lanceari/Iberi Curisi
3 Brihentin/Leuce Epos/Curepos
1 of any Gallic/Iberian/Numidian/Mercanary/Italian infantry (no more African troops)
1 General

I posted a more complete guide to Carthaginian army composition in a thread called "questions on Carthage", which I might be reviving soon.

BTW, I really like your ideas for historical Roman expansion. I'm currently not playing a Romani campaign and probably won't follow your guide exactly when I do, but I will at least take some of your many excellent ideas to heart.

Chairman

[Eduorius]

First Punic War – Africa

Under the control of the Greek mercenary Xanthippus. Armies like this one were raised against foreign invaders like the Romans.
12000 infantry (citizen phalanx and some mercenaries)
4000 cavalry
100 elephants

with EB units

1 General
Cavalry
2 units of Numidian cavalry
2 units of Sacred Band cavalry
2-3 units of elephants
Infantry
1 units of Misteret Izrahim Tsarim (Phoenician citizen phalanx)
3 units of Dorkim Lubaim-Ponnim Mesoarianim (Liby-Phoenician heavy infantry)
1 unit of mercenary (Lybian, Spanish, Gallic)

* The number of elephants is hard to estimate. It could be even 4 if you have the money to go for it.


Second Punic War – Italy

The army that Hannibal used for his campaign in Italy after recruiting some Gallic mercenaries in the north of Italy. A lot of soldiers from different nations.
10/ 12000 Africans (4000 light)
7/8000 Spania (4000 light)
10/15000 Celts
4000 Numidian cavalry
4000 Celtic heavy cavaly
2000 Spanish heavy cavalry

with EB units

1 General
Infantry
1 unit of Balearic light infantry
1 unit of Balearic slingers
1 unit of Iberian caetrati
1 unit of Iberian loricati scutari
2 units of Numidian skirmishers
2 unit of Gaesatae
3 units of Geroas
2 units of Aanatim Aloopim (Elite African pikemen)
1 unit of Dorkim Aloopim (Elite African swordsmen)
Cavalry
2 units of Numidian cavalry
2 units of Brhentin (Gallic noble cavalry)
1 unit of Iberi Lanceari


*Hannibal brought elephants, but many of them died and could only be used in Trebia. Also after Cannae, Hannibal recruited local Italian troops like Samnites and Bruttians. I chose the loricati scutari instead of the normal scutari to show that some of Hannibal’s soldiers use captured Roman weapons. The important to see here is that there were as many Gauls as Africans and that Hannibal had a lot of cavalry.


Second Punic War – Hispania

Based on the army of Hasdrubal Gisgo and Magon Barca at the battle of Ilipa
50/70000 infantry
4000 cavalry
32 elephants

with EB units

1 General
Cavalry
1 unit of Numidian cavalry
1 unit of Iberi cavalry (lanceari, cursi, equites caetrati)
2 units of elephants
Infantry
1 units of Misteret Izrahim Tsarim (Phoenician citizen phalanx)
1 units of Dorkim Lubaim-Ponnim Mesoarianim (Liby-Phoenician heavy infantry)
2 units of Aanatim Lubim (Lybian spearmen)
4 units of Aanatim Aloopim (Elite African pikemen)
4 units of Iberi infantry
1 unit of Balearic light infantry
1 unit of Balearic slingers
1 unit of Numidian skirmishers

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm thinking it's probably better to drop Hannibal into the game in 217BC, having already crossed into Italy and having Cisalpine Gaul revolt.

Now would it be better to have it revolt to Carthage, Rebel, or one of the Gallic factions? Can you script revolts? Would that stop him running off to Spain?

[Obelics]

im trying to add hannibal via console command, but still experimenting...

[bovi]

Can't script revolts, beyond taking control over the owning faction, ejecting the garrison and moving another army into the town. I've heard that taking control over a faction can interfere with the AI routines once it returns. If you'll notice any difference, of course.

[konny]

In another mod I did have the game start in 218BC and Hannibal was in the Alps, but he wandered back to Spain. I suspect the AI would do the same with a scripted Hannibal and his army.

So to the question. How could you make this work? Would some scripted rebellions help at all (is that possible)? I'm thinking Mediolanium and Patavium either going rebel, or defecting to Qarthdast might at least prevent a spawned Hannibal bailing for Spain, since there's something to protect.

Absolutly no way to do it. You can spawn armies but you don't have any means to controll what the AI does with these armies. Take the Makedon army near Athens or the Greek army on Crete for example: they never do attack the respective town the first turn but run away (the Maks) or just do nothing (the Greeks).

When you spawn Hannibal in the Alps he will most likely return to Spain. When you make one of the Gaulls' settlements in Northern Italy Karthagian, he will enter that town and make his hughe army the garrison, because it is isolated.

The only way to have some Punic War with a scripted Hannibal would be to spawn him on Roman territory, for example halfway between Arretium and Roma: he wouldn't be able to move to Spain without beeing blocked by Arretium, and the (AI) Romans would spend all their armies to attack that stack. May be the (AI) Karthagians would even attack one of the Roman towns.

[Tiberius Nero]

Unless you are going to lose a lot of battles as the Romans against Hannibal's stack, I really don't see the point; if he spawns with a stack on Italian soil and is defeated on the next turn, so what? There goes the greatest military commander after Alexander, folks, 2nd Punic war is over in a day, let's all go home and watch football :P

You would have to give all his soldiers 9xp and max upgrades in weapons and armor to make him last 1 battle perhaps, and then you would defeat him in the next (or at most the next after this) so there is little point to the whole thing, unless you specifically make a whole mini campaign based solely on the 2nd Punic war of course, with proper initial balancing of forces, scripted missions etc.

[alatar]

Script him an army, and maybe another one.

Then add this line (or to this effect)...

If "A Town in Spain" and "Town in Spain" are Roman
console command character_reset Hanibal
consol command move_character Hanibal " Wherever"


Also you could make every year another part army spawn for Hanibal (so 4 Samnites in 216, and in 215 another 4, if he has room in his stack).
This will keep him as a threat, unless you take two settlments in spain when he'll fly away to Carthage.

Also give him traits to make him tough, and purposely don't kill him.

[Watchman]

Isn't that what in agrarian societies is known as "rather pointless" ?

[Xurr]

Unless you are going to lose a lot of battles as the Romans against Hannibal's stack, I really don't see the point; if he spawns with a stack on Italian soil and is defeated on the next turn, so what? There goes the greatest military commander after Alexander, folks, 2nd Punic war is over in a day, let's all go home and watch football :P

You would have to give all his soldiers 9xp and max upgrades in weapons and armor to make him last 1 battle perhaps, and then you would defeat him in the next (or at most the next after this) so there is little point to the whole thing, unless you specifically make a whole mini campaign based solely on the 2nd Punic war of course, with proper initial balancing of forces, scripted missions etc.


Perhaps Hannibal should have multiple stacks. You can have it respawn him and his stack every turn if it detects that he isn't there. You could do this for a given time period to simulate his affect on the Romanii.

[QuintusSertorius]

Unless you are going to lose a lot of battles as the Romans against Hannibal's stack, I really don't see the point; if he spawns with a stack on Italian soil and is defeated on the next turn, so what? There goes the greatest military commander after Alexander, folks, 2nd Punic war is over in a day, let's all go home and watch football :P

You would have to give all his soldiers 9xp and max upgrades in weapons and armor to make him last 1 battle perhaps, and then you would defeat him in the next (or at most the next after this) so there is little point to the whole thing, unless you specifically make a whole mini campaign based solely on the 2nd Punic war of course, with proper initial balancing of forces, scripted missions etc.

It might be a surprise for you, but there are many ways of having fun, and not every one conforms to your preferred method. Yours (or anyone else's) seeing the point is irrelevant. I'll quite happily deliberately lose a string of battles to Hannibal's stack, and use Force Diplomacy to give the Carthaginians some of my settlements which I'd have to re-take.

I'd ask anyone else who isn't actually contributing to solving the problem to please abstein from posting.

[jtareb]

I've had several instances in romani campaigns where around the 218bc time frame the AI will send a Carthaginian fm north from carthago nova into gaul. He will wander around for a while before getting killed and he has no troops with him. Not sure if this is the ai's attempt at simulating Hannibal.

[Tiberius Nero]

It might be a surprise for you, but there are many ways of having fun, and not every one conforms to your preferred method. Yours (or anyone else's) seeing the point is irrelevant. I'll quite happily deliberately lose a string of battles to Hannibal's stack, and use Force Diplomacy to give the Carthaginians some of my settlements which I'd have to re-take.

I'd ask anyone else who isn't actually contributing to solving the problem to please abstein from posting.


I thought you were asking for feedback on simulating the 2nd Punic War in EB; my feedback was this in short: not possible. If you intend to just lose on purpose a bunch of battles against a scripted Carthaginian stack at specific dates, using forced diplomacy, etc etc you can do this without much modding advice or ideas I guess.

I did not say you are not entitled to your idea of fun, my comments were made from a balancing/modding point of view, on how and whether such a mini-campaign simulation could work in general for the average gamer (who doesn't lose battles on purpose that is).

Peace.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, if you just wait on the Carthies for a few decades, they'll conquer southern Gaul and attack you from the north eventually.

[QuintusSertorius]

It's 226 in my game, so I'm a lot closer to trying all this out.

Question is, how (as in where do I edit, what lines to I put in) do I script the appearance of these two armies?


Second Punic War – Italy

The army that Hannibal used for his campaign in Italy after recruiting some Gallic mercenaries in the north of Italy. A lot of soldiers from different nations.
10/ 12000 Africans (4000 light)
7/8000 Spania (4000 light)
10/15000 Celts
4000 Numidian cavalry
4000 Celtic heavy cavaly
2000 Spanish heavy cavalry

with EB units

1 General
Infantry
1 unit of Balearic light infantry
1 unit of Balearic slingers
1 unit of Iberian caetrati
1 unit of Iberian loricati scutari
2 units of Numidian skirmishers
2 unit of Gaesatae
3 units of Geroas
2 units of Aanatim Aloopim (Elite African pikemen)
1 unit of Dorkim Aloopim (Elite African swordsmen)
Cavalry
2 units of Numidian cavalry
2 units of Brhentin (Gallic noble cavalry)
1 unit of Iberi Lanceari


*Hannibal brought elephants, but many of them died and could only be used in Trebia. Also after Cannae, Hannibal recruited local Italian troops like Samnites and Bruttians. I chose the loricati scutari instead of the normal scutari to show that some of Hannibal’s soldiers use captured Roman weapons. The important to see here is that there were as many Gauls as Africans and that Hannibal had a lot of cavalry.


Second Punic War – Hispania

Based on the army of Hasdrubal Gisgo and Magon Barca at the battle of Ilipa
50/70000 infantry
4000 cavalry
32 elephants

with EB units

1 General
Cavalry
1 unit of Numidian cavalry
1 unit of Iberi cavalry (lanceari, cursi, equites caetrati)
2 units of elephants
Infantry
1 units of Misteret Izrahim Tsarim (Phoenician citizen phalanx)
1 units of Dorkim Lubaim-Ponnim Mesoarianim (Liby-Phoenician heavy infantry)
2 units of Aanatim Lubim (Lybian spearmen)
4 units of Aanatim Aloopim (Elite African pikemen)
4 units of Iberi infantry
1 unit of Balearic light infantry
1 unit of Balearic slingers
1 unit of Numidian skirmishers

I'm going to have Hannibal's appear in Campania in 216BC after the fall of Capua (and maybe Arpi as well). The Spanish army in 211 or so in Spain.

I'm undecided whether I'll switch back to BI.exe to run the war, or just keep scripting reinforcements since they'll be less ridiculous than the ones the AI tries to do.

[alatar]

Script him an army, and maybe another one.

Then add this line (or to this effect)...

If "A Town in Spain" and "Town in Spain" are Roman
console command character_reset Hanibal
consol command move_character Hanibal " Wherever"


Also you could make every year another part army spawn for Hanibal (so 4 Samnites in 216, and in 215 another 4, if he has room in his stack).
This will keep him as a threat, unless you take two settlments in spain when he'll fly away to Carthage.

Also give him traits to make him tough, and purposely don't kill him.


Comments?

[QuintusSertorius]

Comments?

They sound good, along with making the African and Spanish elements very experienced so they aren't killed off in the first few battles.

The idea of spawning him Italian troops after a while is a good one, Samnites, Bruttians and Lucanians.

How would he get to Carthage? Will the script just teleport him? Or will he then try to march out of Italy to Spain?

[Moros]

teleport.

[alatar]

He would teleport (if he marched it would take years).

You could make a trigger for when Gader falls to Rome, "move_character Hanibal xyz,abc"

[QuintusSertorius]

Brilliant. That works. So where in the script would I put this, and precisely what do I put? I've literally never scripted anything, or touched that file.

[Moros]

Check Gader's ownership. If not Karty then use the move character command.

[Midnj]

You can just put it into the EBBS_SCRIPT. But you'd need to do more work than just have the commands to create the army.. you need to set the proper triggers and conditions for all this.

If you're reasonably bright you can probably figure it out by looking at the existing scripts there. Alternately you can just ask someone in the modding sub-forum if they'll do your homework, so to speak. It'll be easier than trying to explain everything.

[QuintusSertorius]

Alternately you can just ask someone in the modding sub-forum if they'll do your homework, so to speak. It'll be easier than trying to explain everything.

That, sir, is a fine idea (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=102665).

[QuintusSertorius]

Right now I've got a thread dealing with the technicalities, I'd like to discuss the generalities of what needs to happen.

Italy
Hannibal appearing in 216BC with his army in Campania is an obvious one.

Bomilkar's reinforcements landed in Locri in 215/4BC should be represented as well. Along with Italian troops spawning, and possibly some Italian armies, either rebel or Qarthadastim.

Hasdrubal's army marching through the alps in 208/7BC is another one.

Spain
Gisgo/Hasdrubal's army there
Himilco and reinforcements in 216BC (I think the same one who then landed in Sicily in 213BC - so I could just move that stack).

Sicily
Himilco's army in 213BC near Syracuse.