question: cavalry on wedge

[belliger]

hi. watching at the EDU.txt file :book: , i noticed that, among the attributes of the cavalries, there isn't anymore: Wedge,.
did i miss something? is it already among some 'hidden' attributes? what about if i write it on the EDU.txt file?

[Watchman]

It was removed because it's bloody useless under the RTW engine. The human player learns right fast to not bother with it, and the AI using it just nerfs its cavalry.

[blitzkrieg80]

where's me infantry wedge!? ~:pissed: come on, how else can a good Sue be svin? curse ye RTW gods

[Watchman]

Methinks you'll have to settle for imagining cute piggy snouts on them. :clown:

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

I guess it was all in my head then. But I thought wedged worked great. I'm sad it's gone. It looks cooler too.

[Watchman]

I actually purposely tested the thing. With cataphracts and other high-end assault cav, against various lame-ass levy troops.

It sucked. Bad. Which only reinforced the impression I'd gotten from the AI's attempts to use it in campaign game.

[Jolt]

I actually purposely tested the thing. With cataphracts and other high-end assault cav, against various lame-ass levy troops.

It sucked. Bad. Which only reinforced the impression I'd gotten from the AI's attempts to use it in campaign game.

Really? In my vanilla game, wedge actually fulfilled the function of splitting the ranks of an enemy army (Me: Scipii vs AI Brutii), of course that wedge was quickly reinforced by other cavalry charges which split the army in two, ultimately ending in my victory. I RULZ!1

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The only advantage to the Wedge is when manauvering on the battlefield, which really gives the human an advantage if he uses it properly. In reality that was the real benefit of the wedge in reality as well.

[The General]

where's me infantry wedge!?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tzn3xsHivO8

[Watchman]

You can get more or less the same result with a deep column formation (IRL too, far as I know). IRL one major point of the wedge was that it made it easy for the squadron commander to "aim" the charge into any weak spot there might appear in the enemy frontage, potentially driving the attack home deep into the ranks and virtually cleaving the unit in two.

In RTW, the usual result is the whole wedge more or less stopping cold and getting enveloped once it reaches the enemy... :no:
I'd really rather not think of all the enemy cavalry general units I've killed with ease due to that, often enough with rather lighter horse to boot.

[konny]

Basically the wedge was a formation to approach the enemy not to charge home with. That is, it is easyer to keep formation following the guy in front of you than alligning with someone left or right of you. Short before contact with the enemy the men in the rear rank of the wedge started running, and so, if everything went right, a proper line (or assault column) was formed on the point of choke.

[blitzkrieg80]

Methinks you'll have to settle for imagining cute piggy snouts on them. :clown:
yay! :applause: I can't fool you with pseudo-German. if only my nonsense can reach 1 person ~;)

In their styes with all their backing

they don't care what goes on around.

In their eyes there's something lacking

what they need's a damn good whacking.

[bovi]

yay! :applause: I can't fool you with pseudo-German
Huh, and I thought you'd learned a Norwegian word. I'm sure you understand "perler for svin".

[Visarion]

wedge works if you know how to use it! can someone tell me how to make wedge formation work in EB?

[Macilrille]

Huh, and I thought you'd learned a Norwegian word. I'm sure you understand "perler for svin".

Oh Bovi... "Perle" has a new meaning in Denmark these days...

[antisocialmunky]

The only use for it in any TW was on infantry to widen a gap in the enemy line by wedge->non-wedge. It never every worked for cavalry since the whole black stopped after the first 3 guys hit.

[fallen851]

You don't order the cavalry to attack the enemy, you use it against enemy units that have some space in between them to seperate them, and you order your cavalry to move past the two enemy units. This blasts a larger hole in their line if done correctly with powerful cavalry (round shield cavalry from vanilla need not apply), and then you can get into the enemies rear and also follow up the attack with infantry. It took me quite a bit of time to learn how to use it, and you need to make sure the hole isn't too small to begin with, otherwise you'll get stacked up.

I actually did this yesterday in a Rome vs Spain vanilla battle online, and it worked. I still lost the stupid battle though, Urban Cohorts are ridiculous, even Bull Warriors are no match, so my flanks collapsed despite my success at dividing and routing the Triarii holding the center.

[Ibrahim]

Oh Bovi... "Perle" has a new meaning in Denmark these days...

huh?

Anyways: Visarion, if you want to enable the wedge, just look at a vanilla EDU, find a unit you know has the wedge, and copy the ability you see in it to the EB EDU, to the units you want a wedge for.

and no, wedges are crud. they are only really good for manuever-at best. there simply is no good use for them, and piling 3 cavalry units into a triangular formation works WAY better than a wedge lead 1 or 2 cavalry units, as you take fewer losses, and affect more enemy area.

@ Fallen: correct, but its EB, not vanilla. cavalry is a whole other monster in EB. if you can replicate the sucess you had in vanilla in EB, then great. I'll warn you, cavalry might not succeed though in EB (they are nothing like vanilla cavalry, as you should know)

[Olaf The Great]

Really? In my vanilla game, wedge actually fulfilled the function of splitting the ranks of an enemy army (Me: Scipii vs AI Brutii), of course that wedge was quickly reinforced by other cavalry charges which split the army in two, ultimately ending in my victory. I RULZ!1I think this is because in Vanilla Cavalry had a jumping animation, in EB they do not.

[Grade_A_Beef]

Oh? Any reason why the jumping animation was taken out? Come to think of it, I've been playing nothing but EB for the past few months and have forgotten that cavalry had that animation.

[Ludens]

Oh? Any reason why the jumping animation was taken out? Come to think of it, I've been playing nothing but EB for the past few months and have forgotten that cavalry had that animation.

For one it was unrealistic, for another it somehow made charging cavalry overpowered.

[antisocialmunky]

It would jump over the first rank of a phalanx and horribly rape it.

[Cute Wolf]

I Think some horrible light horse units should have jumping animation restored!!! :furious3:
I think some Basic Nomad horse archers, as well, as Hippakontistai, should have this too, as they aren't wearing any armour to weigh their horsies.... :yes: and every cavalry who only wear a simple cloth should have jumping ability.......

Just kidding.... :clown: but why the light horse can't jump? That's what I've think after reading all the posts...

[fallen851]

I think the wedge formation should be re-implemented in the multiplayer EDU.

But I agree that the AI would have no idea how to use it, and it would just nerf their cavalry in single player.

By the way, does anyone play EB online?

[Watchman]

Sure is necro thread here.

[Ludens]

but why the light horse can't jump? That's what I've think after reading all the posts...

They can jump, but I doubt it would do so in the middle of a swirling melee and if it was not certain of the ground.

[The Celtic Viking]

Sure is necro thread here.

I don't really understand what people have against necroing. At least it shows that people actually made a search of the forum first, instead of just starting a new thread about it.

[Watchman]

It was a statement of fact, not a judgement.

Anyway, CW ? Doubtless a light cavalry trooper could get his horse to jump a pretty decent distance even under combat conditions. It's just very very hard to see why he would want to, as it serves no purpose at all (beyond clearing the occasional obstacle, and really, you're better off just going around) and mainly runs an unpleasantly high risk of something going seriously wrong, chiefly regarding the issues of "landing", "footing" and "the horse's legs"...

Let's not even talk about what a gigantically bad idea it would be if the "projected landing zone" were full of grown men with shields and long pointy things.

[fallen851]

So, do you generally state "boy this is a nice fresh thread" when a new thread is formed?

No, you don't. And therein lies the problem. The fact that you even made a statement, shows a judgement.

Anyway, does anyone play EB online?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It was a statement of fact, not a judgement.

Anyway, CW ? Doubtless a light cavalry trooper could get his horse to jump a pretty decent distance even under combat conditions. It's just very very hard to see why he would want to, as it serves no purpose at all (beyond clearing the occasional obstacle, and really, you're better off just going around) and mainly runs an unpleasantly high risk of something going seriously wrong, chiefly regarding the issues of "landing", "footing" and "the horse's legs"...

Let's not even talk about what a gigantically bad idea it would be if the "projected landing zone" were full of grown men with shields and long pointy things.

All true, except that cavalry were in the habit of doing it, along with getting their horses to hop, rear and buck on command.

[Watchman]

Light cavalry ? Leaping their horses into serried ranks of infantry ?
...I reserve the right to regard the idea with heavy scepticism.

Also, not the same as the industry-standard training in wheeling and rearing and whatever on command that all warhorses got more or less by default.

[fallen851]

All true, except that cavalry were in the habit of doing it, along with getting their horses to hop, rear and buck on command.

I own two Arabs, and it takes an incredible amount of training to get a horse to hop or jump on command. It is easy for a horse when it sees a jump to jump over it, but extremely hard to get it to hop on command. Many horse breeds are simply incapable of learning it also.

It takes many years of training to get a horse to do this and I doubt they had the training techniques (modern day behaviorism) then that we have now that allow the horse to learn the command "easily."

The famous Lipizzaner Stallions are among the horses in the world that can do this, and I really doubt the horses of even elite cavalry units were trained anywhere near that well. So as for the hopping on command, it simply isn't historical.

[tarem]

yesterday i did use a wedge with great success in the following way:

me ant the AI had a symetrical deplyment all our heavy infantry on my right and all our cavalry on my left. however the field was only wide enough to deploy 2/3 of the army in continous line so we both had reserves in the back. as we aproached i ordered my 3 rows deep cavalry to charge the AI cavalry and my infantry to charge the oposite infantry. because of the difference in speed i very thin gap formed betwean the infantry/cavalry lines, so i put my rear cavalry into wedge (i enabled it before) and rushed through the gap, not engaging eighter infantry or cavalry along the way. then after i got behind the enemy lines i quickly turned left and back and struck the AI's rightmost cavalry, causing them to rout left which caused the neigbours to rout and so a chain rout of al the 3 frontal cavalry units before the one in the reserve could react

[seienchin]

I made an wedge test in vanilla today and although in my test game the cavallery units with wedge took more casualties they were able to disrupt the ranks of hoplites when atacking from the front.
In the description of the wedge it also says that the wedge is good for breaking enemies formation.
I am going to take a test in EB today to see if it works in EB too. :book: