Why Nerf Baktria?

[Elmetiacos]

It's not like it wasn't hard enough to start with waiting for the inevitable stab in the back from your Seleucid overlords, but to be reduced to a single city surrounded by Seleucids apart from one independent city sporting a huge cavalry army... ouch! Was this faction really thought to be so powerful?

[abou]

Baktria was originally only one province. By the time of 0.8 a former member argued for its expansion to three provinces. That argument was reexamined and found to be weak; ergo Baktria reduced back down to the one province.

[bigmilt16]

Besides, the AI-Baktria gets mighty powerful, pretty quick. In fact, I had to use Force Diplomacy to keep them from eating up Parthia.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Because we feel it is more historically accurate. It's a fine line, but we try to do our best to get it as right as we can given the lack of sources on the places in question at exactly this time.

[Elmetiacos]

It wouldn't be so bad if the cities which had been wickedly stolen from their rightful Baktrian owners had gone to the Eleutheroi, but instead they're now Seleucid, which means that at the start you have a choice between immediately declaring war yourself or disbanding your army and going click-wait, click-wait, click-wait, like playing Hayasdan in v.0.6, until you have a big enough pile of money to do what you want.
:spider:

[General Appo]

Or you can just recruit a spy and use the two you know got to make some Seleukid towns rebel. In 5 years I got 4 towns to rebel, making them easy prey for me. Then I focused on the Indian provinces and the Saka, and I only recently had to go to war with the Seleukids, by which time my empire almost rivalled theirs, especially with all their armies in the Levant and Asia Minor. Those backwater provinces were easy pickings for my Cat´s, though I did see an Seleukid FM with the Intrigued by Cataphracts trait, fortunately I killed him before he could set his plans in motion. Baktria is not all that much harder then in 1.0, and a lot more fun.

[abou]

It wouldn't be so bad if the cities which had been wickedly stolen from their rightful Baktrian owners had gone to the Eleutheroi, but instead they're now Seleucid, which means that at the start you have a choice between immediately declaring war yourself or disbanding your army and going click-wait, click-wait, click-wait, like playing Hayasdan in v.0.6, until you have a big enough pile of money to do what you want.
:spider:
What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean gone to the Eleutheroi?

I hope you have some evidence to back up such high claims.

[Elmetiacos]

Or you can just recruit a spy and use the two you know got to make some Seleukid towns rebel. In 5 years I got 4 towns to rebel, making them easy prey for me.
People have mentioned spies starting revolts, but how do you do that? Do spies cause revolts simply by standing next to cities or is there some other method?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It wouldn't be so bad if the cities which had been wickedly stolen from their rightful Baktrian owners had gone to the Eleutheroi, but instead they're now Seleucid, which means that at the start you have a choice between immediately declaring war yourself or disbanding your army and going click-wait, click-wait, click-wait, like playing Hayasdan in v.0.6, until you have a big enough pile of money to do what you want.
:spider:
And we should make them more powerful although we have reason to believe they should not be represented that way (if we want to make it accurate)? We didn't just do it to make it harder for them - we made the change because we thought it more accurately represented the situation at the time. The seleucids will generally lose one or two of those provinces within a year or two anyway, especially if you send a spy there.

[Elmetiacos]

Grrrmph... conspiracy of Baktria-haters... obviously the EB Team have been paid in Tocharian gold...
:quiet:

[anubis88]

People have mentioned spies starting revolts, but how do you do that? Do spies cause revolts simply by standing next to cities or is there some other method?
A spy in a city will reduce public order- starting revolts

[HFox]

Multiple spies will increase the effect as will the spies experience.....

[Elmetiacos]

Okay, thanks - the spies are doing their work, but in the larger towns the Seleucids are just piling in bigger and bigger armies to crush any revolt. Pahlava attacked them at the start and I broke my alliance with AS. All I can do now, of course, is click-wait, click-wait, click-wait until I can fund an army large enough to take one of these rebel towns...

[NeoSpartan]

well I guess this anwers the question as to what faction I should play next :yes: I mean after classes

[General Appo]

Why did you break your alliance with the Sele´s? They´ll just attack you then, while the Pahlavans won´t be able to attack you for centuries. Trust me, two spy´s is enough to cause a revolt in several Seleukid towns, at least in my experience.

[Elmetiacos]

In my experience the AS always attack anyway, even if you bribe them (and I don't have the money to do so) so I thought that it made more sense to stay friends with Parthia. Plus, Parthian settlements are remote and poor - the Parthians have nothing worth taking.

[NeoSpartan]

I think u should restart ur campain.

[Eduorius]

Multiple spies will increase the effect as will the spies experience.....

Total War games are easy to play but you need a life to master all the stuff. Thanks for the nice tip. :2thumbsup:

[konny]

Baktria is fine with one town. Take Kophen, it is an easy prey. Than wait for the two towns, by all rights yours but illagly occupied by the Seleucid imperialists, to rebell (help it with spies). Take them, and afterwards go for the Grey Death (they will attack you sooner or later anyways). Focus on regional troops because you share regional barracks with the Seleucids.....

.....and pray that the red scum leaves you alone, otherwise you'll learn that your FM are absolutly useless against these steppe tanks.

[Elmetiacos]

I don't understand how Kophen is easy prey at all; it's got 8 garrison units, mainly missile cavalry. Attacking it is tough and I don't have enough money. With only 1 city, if I keep a large enough army, I will go bankrupt before I can capture it.

[mlp071]

I don't understand how Kophen is easy prey at all; it's got 8 garrison units, mainly missile cavalry. Attacking it is tough and I don't have enough money. With only 1 city, if I keep a large enough army, I will go bankrupt before I can capture it.


Just take 2 armies(minus cavalry unit, disband that one) that start outside and go straight for Kophen. It is enough to handle that task.

2 FM will beat cavalry and light troops very fast.Arrow down missile units before they even get close(finish what is left with FM's) while you are pinning down phalanxes( one is rebel FM) and surround them.

I maybe had 15-20% of casualties in battle.

You got some buildings that you don't need in Baktra.You can use that money(ex keep yourself from going red till you take Kophen).2 spies and assasin can rebel cities, i made a nice rebel cushion between me and AS while i was building up.

You can follow what konny said or leave it to Pahlava as buffer from Saka, let them bleed over it, and go for Alexandropolis and work west from there.

just fyi,AS will go after you, no mater what, as soon your military even steps in any province that AS was holding and rebelled from them.Third option can be abandoning Baktra and migrating to Taksashila and other Mauryan cities, they are quite rich.

[konny]

I don't understand how Kophen is easy prey at all; it's got 8 garrison units, mainly missile cavalry. Attacking it is tough and I don't have enough money. With only 1 city, if I keep a large enough army, I will go bankrupt before I can capture it.

I did not have any problems with that town. Missle cavalry is pretty useless in street fights. The best (early) army for Baktria is Pantodapoi Phalangitai plus archer-spearmen and FMs. It is cheap and effective against every (non-elite) enemy.

[Elmetiacos]

Hmm... I can't help feeling that if you have to sell off buildings in order to stay solvent, something is wrong.

[Watchman]

Most factions need to either go on a conquest spree or disband most of their starting army to become financially viable, you may recall...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Military buildings that you *can't* use - sell them off. They clutter up the space in your town and if someone else captures the city they can train troops quickly there. Plus you get some cash for doing it. Or you could just leave them alone and complain that something is inherently wrong with the way we depict the faction's starting situation, either from apriori knowledge that you may have or from a serious study of the Baktrian kingdom (we have one of the two now from a few members - guess which one...).

[bovi]

The best (early) army for Baktria is Pantodapoi Phalangitai plus archer-spearmen and FMs. It is cheap and effective against every (non-elite) enemy.
Really? I'm playing Saka now, and have had absolutely no problems chewing up any number of phalanxes with hit-n-run. I think it's safe to say I've killed 2000 phalangites and lost perhaps 40-50 horsemen against them (I'm having a lot more trouble killing other horse archers without losing my precious 150-200 man army). But you're right though, I'm using my FMs to a great effect, and they are definitely elite. Quite possibly my plain horse archers would be unable to rout them and have to retreat.

[konny]

Really? I'm playing Saka now, and have had absolutely no problems chewing up any number of phalanxes with hit-n-run.

That's what you need the archer-spearmen for: they outclass the horsearchers in firepower, and are able to hold themselves for some time against light cavalry until the phalanxes have the time to close in. After that I throw the FMs into the mess and that's it.

Saka nobles are a complete different story, of course: They are immune against missle fire, overrun archer-spearmen in melee and do not have to worry much when three squadrons of Baktrian FMs appear in their flanks. Only the phalanx is able to kill them - but try to catch horsearchers with phalanx....

[General Appo]

Yeah, but that´s just because the AI controlls the Baktrian army. When you do, those steppe barbarians doesn´t stand a chance.

[Watchman]

Whenever I play Baktria, the theme song for dealing with those pesky cata FMs is "Bury Them With Axes"... :thrasher:

[Elmetiacos]

D'oh! Of course, if I'd bothered to raise the tax rate, supporting my army wouldn't be a problem... I disbanded my expensive Median cavalry and a nizagan. With two phalanx, two Persian archer, one nizagan and a general I was able to capture Kophen, although I took some losses doing it. Now I think I'll send in the spies, but expand East at first to keep the Seleucids off my back until I'm ready for them.

[konny]

but expand East at first to keep the Seleucids off my back until I'm ready for them.

Belive me, the Seleucids will always be more ready for you than you for them. Start a Seleucid campaign and you'll see that your Eastern towns are all short to rebellion and the border is more or less stripped of troops. Within ten years the Seleucid player should have everything under control and start to spit out full stacks of pikemen - the AI Seleucids with all their money help will even be faster.

So get Margiane, Ariana and Prophthasia as fast as possible. The other Seleucids towns are farer away, what will give you some time of warning. To the North make Marakanda, Eschate and Bin-Kath a "triangle of fortresses" to keep the Nomads at bay.

[Elmetiacos]

Alex Marg seems to me dubious; it cuts the Pahlava off from AS and that encourages them to make peace. My spies have fermented revolts in Maracanda and that other far-off one, but the Seleucids are just recapturing them with huge armies. Elsewhere cities are technically in revolt but not actually changing colour...

[paullus]

then you may have to play it safe and hope that the ptolemies start winning the war in the west.

[konny]

Alex Marg seems to me dubious; it cuts the Pahlava off from AS and that encourages them to make peace.

Oh, that shouldn't worry you: I have seen Seleucid armies marching straight through (hostile!) Parthian lands to attack me from the other direction without beeing disturbed in doing so by my glorious ally's forces. With whom the AI is at war and with whom not doesn't matter so much.


My spies have fermented revolts in Maracanda and that other far-off one, but the Seleucids are just recapturing them with huge armies.

Where did they get those hughe armies from? Anyways, of course as soon as you have initiated a revolt in a Seleucid settlement you should be ready with your army to ehmmm.... ensure liberty there.


Elsewhere cities are technically in revolt but not actually changing colour...

This isn't so bad after all, because it forces the Seleucids to keep their armies inside their rebellious towns as garrisons. Better they do so in their towns than in your towns.

[General Appo]

Yeah, simply by some good agitator work coupled with a bit of sabotaging I managed to completely halt any and all Seleukid army movements in the entire eastern part of their empire. With nearly every town in riot they were forced to keep their armies as garrison, and even then they were constantly reduced by the riots, so when I finally attacked all their units were depleted. Coupled with destroying much of their MIC´s and keeping even more troops pinned down in retaking revolting regions, I barely had to face a single Seleukid army for almost 20 years after I declared war on them. And by the time they started their counter-offensive I had already burned Persepolis to the ground and were moving into Elymais.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

'Scorched Earth' is a devastating tactic in EB. Raid a Selucid town, exterminate the population, destroy every building possible, then stick the tax rate up to maximum and pull your troops out.

The Seleucids hopefully have to fight their way past a rebel army to get the town back, and when they do it isn't worth having as it can't build troops or make much contribution to their economy.

Eventually you can create a 'firebreak' in between yourself and the Seleucids that will suck up their armies like a sponge.

When you're fighting a stronger power, sometimes you have to fight dirty!

[Lysimachos]

'Scorched Earth' is a devastating tactic in EB. Raid a Selucid town, exterminate the population, destroy every building possible, then stick the tax rate up to maximum and pull your troops out.

The Seleucids hopefully have to fight their way past a rebel army to get the town back, and when they do it isn't worth having as it can't build troops or make much contribution to their economy.

Eventually you can create a 'firebreak' in between yourself and the Seleucids that will suck up their armies like a sponge.

When you're fighting a stronger power, sometimes you have to fight dirty!

I'd be careful with destroying every building. I would like to come back one day and when i came back i wouldn't like cities near my core which are practically reduced to villages. If you have not many cities every single one is more important for you than it could be for the enemy.

[dexm]

Is it normal that the Seleukids declare war after a few rounds even though they are my allies? I'm playing my first Baktria campaign, and I'm really not prepared for war in 268 BC. Well, I used forced diplomacy and made peace again, but that doesn't feel right.

[Watchman]

The AI hates you. :shrug: That's the way RTW is.

[konny]

'Scorched Earth' is a devastating tactic in EB. Raid a Selucid town, exterminate the population, destroy every building possible, then stick the tax rate up to maximum and pull your troops out.

....and then watch the town rebell back to the Seleucids including a fresh full stack army of gold chevron units for free? :inquisitive:

[Watchman]

Is it really a big deal if all they get is those Apeuletheroi wimps who die like flies under arrows ?

[antisocialmunky]

I HATED Baktria's starting in 1.0. Your lands are split by a freaking mountain range with no passes in it. You effectively have two regions that can't mutually support each other. I rather pick my own direction to expand rather than have to deal with that Crap.

[konny]

Is it really a big deal if all they get is those Apeuletheroi wimps who die like flies under arrows ?

It's after all an army more you have to deal with.

Idea for a mini-mod: change the creatorship for all towns to Eleutheroi. That would support the idea of raids instead of conquest, what would be usefull for factions like the Sweboz or the Nomads and the like.

[Elmetiacos]

Is it normal that the Seleukids declare war after a few rounds even though they are my allies? I'm playing my first Baktria campaign, and I'm really not prepared for war in 268 BC. Well, I used forced diplomacy and made peace again, but that doesn't feel right.
They will attack you if you occupy any city which used to be theirs. I'm planning to expand East to avoid doing that until I'm ready. And now my ******* save game has got corrupted... :furious3: