What would a historically accurate post-Marian army look like?

[QuintusSertorius]

In my Guide to Conduct Becoming of a True Roman (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=101787), I've got rough approximations of historically accurate armies for the Romans of different periods. But I've got a problem with the Marian army, which currently sits thus:

The Roman core of a Marian army is as follows:
1 unit of Cohors Evocata
8 units of Cohors Reformata
2 units of Antesignani (or allied spearmen)
1 unit of artillery

The allied part is as follows:
2-3 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
1-3 units of allied cavalry (any cavalry you can hire/recruit)
0-3 units of allied infantry

Having played a few custom battles with Marian armies of various sizes, they cohors reformata are rather good. Surprisingly so, in fact. Which means a full stack comprised as above would romp it's way through almost anything.

There's a second problem, the Roman core there only simulates a single legion. Most armies were composed of several, and it doesn't scale well like the previous ones which represented a standard consular army in Camillian and Polybian times.

Now I'm thinking that something like a couple or trio of cohorts might have to represent one legion. They're certainly survivable enough and flexible enough to do that. They're also (if you go with three) conveniently representative of the hastati, principes and triarii cohorts each legion had. Or perhaps make it two cohors reformata and one first cohort. Although having several first cohorts might again make things rather easy with the inspiration effect they have.

Thus if you had an army with six units of cohors reformata in it, you could say you've got two legions, then add whatever auxiliaries you want to it. Twelve units and you've got four legions. More than that and it's starting to get a little silly again.

Thoughts?

[Digby Tatham Warter]

The problem is not that many people get past the reforms, me I'm coming up in my v1.0 game(196BC). So if anyone with some ideas wants to share their experiences.... So I glad this topic came up(provided people add to it).

[QuintusSertorius]

I did some experimenting recently in custom battles with post-Marian troops with mixed results.

My model of "three units is a legion" against overwhelming forces worked well against the Ptolemies, poorly against the Hai.

The army I was tending to use was one first cohort, two (or three) cohors reformata, one cohors evocatii and one antesignani, along with a unit of Numidian cavalry, one of Numidian skirmishers, one of Balaeric slingers and a general. So a half-stack against a full stack.

What did them in against the Armenians was their heavy cavary, along with swarms of sparabara. Wheras they trashed the Ptolemaic army, and a huge Casse army as well.

[Olimpian]

In 1.0 I used in 1 stack :
- 2/3 roman troops : 8 cohors,2 cohors evocata,2 antesignani,1 general
-1/3 mercenaries and allied troops.These varied depending on the enemy I faced,what mercenaries I had available in the area and what regions with allied troop recruitment were near : virtualy any good range:cretans,persians,balears,...,HA,cavalry:greek and sometimes thessalian,hoplites,thureophoroi,etc...
The idea was that the cohors would just go for the enemy,while the antesignani and other spear-armed allies/mercenaries would hold the flanks.1-2 units of cavalry would either take care of skirmishers,be used as bait,or just wait till the enemy is wavering to hit them from the back and rout them.Ranged units take care of enemy range/HA or light troops.
Sounds pretty rudimentary,but depending on the situation on the field(enemy army composition,terrain)the general arrangement/composition/movement of my own troops greatly varied: no two armies were the same,no two battes were the same.Roman flexibility :yes:

[QuintusSertorius]

Only problem is having such a big Roman core makes most battles far too easy. Plus it doesn't do a good job of simulating multiple legions in the same army. As before, in the Camillian/Polybian army, 3-4 units would represent one legion or ala, I think that's a fairly good model for doing the same with a post-Marian army.

[Dooz]

What did them in against the Armenians was their heavy cavary, along with swarms of sparabara. Wheras they trashed the Ptolemaic army, and a huge Casse army as well.

Heh, sounds about right. ~;) That's why we were one of the few peoples not to get directly conquered by those rampaging maniacs. :2thumbsup:

Incidently, I like the army composition you got there. I love using less than full-stacks as standard armies, or more specifically somewhere right around half-stacks, 8-12 units, especially especially playing as the Romans but pretty much anyone else too. Makes for actually challenging battles more often than when you're guaranteed a win with full stacks, even if you have even numbers or are outnumbered not by much. And it sounds like that served it's purpose with your test results, being able to beat some foes but not others.

[Bacchus]

I've been using 3 and a half stack representing a legion since the beginning because its numbers match what is known near historical accurate.
The only problem is that if I want them together in a battle, i need to position them against the army force just right. Secondly, I can only control on of three manually, the other two, i have no choice, to let the ai handle it and the ai is really stupid...
I find myself correcting with my controllable army the actions of the ai.

Ofcourse, this is a major force and hacks through any resistance but, a legion was a force to reckon with.

Hope this adds something...

[QuintusSertorius]

To be honest Bacchus, that's the opposite of the direction I'm trying to go. My original army was one legion was most of a stack, and I felt that was too legionary-heavy. One legion as multiple stacks is rather too much.

Huge unit scale does a reasonable 1:10 ratio to real life, thus a "full stack" of around 2500 troops is about equivalent to a real army of 25,000. Thus a legion should only be around 4-5000 men, and thus 400-500 soldiers (ie two to three units).

I'm thinking that a legion should basically be thus:
1 x First cohort
1 x Cohor reformata
1 x "Veterans" - either evocati or antesignani

That gives you a legion of around 500-ish men, or 5000 multiplied up in scale. Each legion would merit the addition of a single unit of skirmishers, and perhaps one of cavalry and one artillery for every two legions present. Having a first cohort in each legion adds to survivability quite a bit, and having one of veterans in each adds flexibility.

As an option, perhaps a unit of allied line infantry for every legion as well.

Thus a two-legion army would be thus:
1st Legion
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of antesignani

2nd Legion
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of cohors evocata

Support
1 unit of Scorpions/arrow throwers

Allies
1 unit of allied javelin-men
1 unit of allied slingers or archers
1 unit of allied cavalry
Optional: 2 units of allied close-order foot

Plus a general and perhaps a legate/tribune for 11 or 12 units as a "full stack" (or up to 14 if you're including some allied infantry). You might just squeeze in a third legion if you were going with one general.

[Tiberius Nero]

Ofcourse, this is a major force and hacks through any resistance but, a legion was a force to reckon with.



A single legion in real life was too small a force to act alone; major battles included many legions together; the model Quintus presents is the one I have been following (or at least similar): in pre-Marian times 1 Hast/1 Prin/ half Triarii is a legion (the core without the light troops) and three post-Marian cohorts represent a legion as well.

[Bacchus]

I know I differ and the reason is that for the battles I don't take the 1:10 ratio in account and want the number of men on the field which resembles a legion. ie 5000 to 6000 indeed(although the exact numbers differ and are questionable: 10 cohorts of 400 to 500 where one cohort is 5 maniple; maniple in fact about 80 and not 100 men; +120 cavalry)

major battles in my game concern sevral stack against eachother(needs some smart movement on the strat-map)
Well, just explaining my way of doing this, sorry I could not add something to what try to achieve.

Cheers

[QuintusSertorius]

Problem with that Bacchus is that the game isn't scaled for 1:1 representation. Rome and other major cities didn't have a population in the tens of thousands at their height, but hundreds of thousands. Everything is scaled already, if you move around armies with 25,000 actual soldiers in them in the game, that's the equivalent of armies of quarter of a million men, which didn't happen for anything longer than a season.

[Bacchus]

That's is why my cities are drained from inhabitants, true.

I will think about this. Perhaps I should change but as for the fun-factor: it works for me ;-)

(change script so numbers are 1:1 is also a possibility... hahaha :wall: ...)

[alatar]

Your problem would be very easy battles, having 5,000 men on your side, when the ai rarely feilds more that 1500 is to easy.

[Bacchus]

hmm...
well I experienced the ptolemaioi opposing against my army with several full stacks . Last time i actually counted the battlefield concerned 4633 (1631, 1451 and 1551) of them against, what I call a legion which was, 3595(1276, 1333 and 986). Mine reduced through previous battles. This is near to off-topic, I realize this, but the ai adapts to my style(so it seems)
And yes, the pc went slow with this amount of men on the field...:whip:

(and the these huge battles are far from easy...trying to stay in control ie)

[Ibrahim]

I'm quite simplistic: 6 units per legion (1 1st coh 1 evocat and 4 C.reformata, or 5 cohors ref. no evc). It's like the 6 infantry units per legion at the games start. attached to it 1 units antisigs, 1 gen., rest aux.

[alatar]

At the game start a legion is...

asseni, leves, rorai, hastati, princeps, triarri.

So post marian I would have

1st cohort, Evocati, 2 Cohorts Refomata, 1 missile unit.
This with auxillia support, or with another legion is a good army, if it needs to be a great army, put three legions in and yo will win.

@ Bacchus They will be unable to feild these armies often, and they will only attack when you have many units.

If you like the battles, I strongly advice trying out SPQR, it is a very good mod.

[Bacchus]

Thanks Alatar! I'll def check out that mod. (how many mods can one handle in a lifetime hahaha :sweatdrop: )
Reading about how you guys interpret and handle the legion-issue makes me consider switching ...

^_^

[alatar]

Well I've seen a screenshot from that mod with 20,000+ on the battle feild, money and population bonus's are given to the ai, and the AI never attack each other, just build up and wait for rome.

The game starts in 215, and you have to beat hanibal with just 1-2 legions, very hard.

[QuintusSertorius]

Does anyone have any thoughts as to tactics with a post-Marian army? Thing is you're no longer bound by the triplex acies and can deploy in as many lines as you like. But that also means there's no immediately obvious deployment strategy either.

I've been experimenting with the above two-legion force against overwhelming numbers, and they haven't performed too well when I haven't bumped up their experience a fair bit. Most recently I got narrowly defeated by a huge Gallic force (I killed a lot more of them than they did of mine, but eventually their greater numbers counted morale-wise).

I've tended to use a staggered single line, with spearmen on the flanks. But being outnumbered I often get rolled up on one flank, or find nothing happening in the centre and am forced to split my army in two.

Does anyone have some useful deployment/tactics against:
"barbarians"
desert peoples
horse-archers
"civilised" armies

[alatar]

Three lines work well in most situations, but against barbarians one line works well.

[QuintusSertorius]

Three lines work well in most situations, but against barbarians one line works well.

Three lines even when you've got barely half a stack? The armies I've been experimenting with against full stacks are usually 10-14 units. With only six units of legionaries (two first cohorts, two standard cohorts, one evocati, one antesignani). Three lines with them and you've only got a two-unit frontage.

Even the staggered line didn't give a broad front and that tended to get chewed up or divided.

[alatar]

Yes, but if you widen the frontage, and pull back the first line, you get fresh units.

And with 3 lines you can't be flanked and you can flank easly.