View Full Version : Sicilian archers
Hakonarson
10-15-2002, 07:56
I jsut read an intersting snippet on the Sicilian Norman kingdoms - apaprently they valued their Saracen/Moslem troops so much that they FORBADE them from becoming Christian at some times!!
they weer considered more reliable and useful as Moslems considering the internecine wars the Sicilians had with the Papal States!!
Consequently the Normans had a rather enlightened attitude to religous tolerance - much to the annoyance of the Papacy!!
The bulk of Sicilian armies were made up of Moslem archers - both foot and horse - do they get to build those in sicily? (I've never played them & haven't realy had any battles against them either)
I haven't played the Sicilians either.
When did the Norman Sicilians use the Muslem
horse and foot archers? It shouldn't be too hard to add the capability if they don't already have it.
Quote Originally posted by Jagger:
I haven't played the Sicilians either.
When did the Norman Sicilians use the Muslem
horse and foot archers? It shouldn't be too hard to add the capability if they don't already have it.[/QUOTE]
I'd say they already have that capability. Just build an inn in Sicily, wait for the Muslim mercs to show up, then buy 'em.
Coucy
Hakonarson
10-15-2002, 08:39
Mercenaries depend upon availablility tho, and the sicilian troops were natives.
However they did have some of the characteristics of mercenaries - they didn't owe any service as Christian troops did (either to a Lord or a City).
they were both horse and foot archers, and available until at least the middle of the 13th century. One Siciliian army is recorded as having 2000 Norman cavalry and 14,000 Saracen horse archers.
Frederick II Batbarossa (who was King of Sicily for a while) even went so far as to transpalnt up to 60,000 Safacens to the Italian mainland as military colonists, which makes it appear (In MTW terms) as if they were available to whoever controlled Sicily - even if that was another "faction" - Fred II of course being the HRE.
Personally I haven't had much fun with mercenaries - I tried recruiting some as the Danes - had some initial success getting some good cavalry & infantry before I could build them, but then the supply dried up - dunno where they went but i haven't had any for maybe 50 or 60 years! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
[This message has been edited by Hakonarson (edited 10-15-2002).]
Higher tech buildings reduce the number of mercenaries attracted by an inn in a certain province. Lower castle level=more mercenaries. Constable's and Marshall's Palace also reduces mercenaries attracted to a regino.
RabidMonkey
10-15-2002, 09:22
andrewt said:
Higher tech buildings reduce the number of mercenaries attracted by an inn in a certain province. Lower castle level=more mercenaries. Constable's and Marshall's Palace also reduces mercenaries attracted to a regino.
Is there any particular reason why this happens?
Cyricist
10-15-2002, 11:57
I would say the area attracts less mercenaries because their job oppertunities sorta drop when regular, better and cheaper units can be trained in the area. It's a matter of economics. If there is ONLY an inn, the likelyhood of a 'lord' (player) hiring mercs is higher and thus the area is attractive to them. The better equiped an area is to deal with army recruitment itself, the less mercs are interested. It's logical somewhere... right?? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Pragmatic
10-15-2002, 12:16
Inns are kind of intoxicating. You have no idea how powerful you feel when you go to a province bordering enemy territory, check out the inn, and find out that the entire page is filled with mercenaries.
The nice thing about the game (and one I think should be fixed...) is that you can run a deficit, and suffer no desertions. I'd think the mercenaries, at least, would be upset about not being paid for 25 years, but nope.
So, hire all those mercenaries. Conquer enemy territory. Bring forward your border garrisons to besiege/garrison new provinces. And, when the time comes, dismiss all those mercenaries. Or kill them all off in battle. Same difference. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The availability of mercs also has something to do with the location of the last war/and or nearest enemy relative to the location of the province with an inn. Some frontier provinces lose their supply of mercs as they end up being in the centre of the kingdom.
I've played Sicily, and no they don't get any muslim units. All they get are the bog standard, 'generic' catholic troop types! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Still, bit slow to start, (like the Danes,) but good fun to play.
I used them in my first proper campaign, so that i'd have to learn how the trade/naval side of MTW worked. Would recommend them to any STW vet who wanted to get up to speed for MTW.
It would be easy enough to mod them, so that they got some of the muslim troop types. Does anyone have suggestions for what units would be historically fitting? (Havent done Muslims myself yet, so don't really know what's what)
I think I will do the same. Add some saracen horse and foot archers to the sicilians.
Uhmmm...maybe not. I think the only way would be to change the culture of Sicily to Muslim. And that wouldn't work out too well...
Hakonarson
10-16-2002, 02:35
I've just ooked up my source - they start as foot archers, but by the 1200's are mostly horse archers, armed with a bow (obviously!!) and often a couple of javelins and some richer ones with light mail armour.
So maybe if there's a slightly better horse archer than teh bog standard one (to represent teh extra ability of javelins and limited armour) that might be appropriate.
The foot archers are probably OK as the current standard variety tht everyone gets.
Actually there is another way to add them. Just create a Muslem Sicilian archer and Muslem Sicilian Horse Archer. Use the correct bifs for the muslem units and give the sicilian culture. It would work. Although the game would treat them as christians, they would look and perform as muslem archers/horse archers.
Papewaio
10-16-2002, 04:42
Quote Originally posted by RabidMonkey:
andrewt said:
Higher tech buildings reduce the number of mercenaries attracted by an inn in a certain province. Lower castle level=more mercenaries. Constable's and Marshall's Palace also reduces mercenaries attracted to a regino.
Is there any particular reason why this happens? [/QUOTE]
Essentially larger castles have a larger effect on reducing rebellion because of the increased law and order associated with it. Constable's and Marshall's palace also increase law and order.
Mercenaries are found in abundance in lawless places as they are little more then bandits.
It would have been nice in STW to have this effect as well.
Quote Originally posted by Jagger:
Uhmmm...maybe not. I think the only way would be to change the culture of Sicily to Muslim. And that wouldn't work out too well...[/QUOTE]
Or, you could change the culture of the unit types involved.
If you removed the Muslim marker, and just left them without a culture, (a number of the generic units don't have a set culture), and then added a faction limitation to allow only the Muslim nations and the Sicilians to get them, it should work, I think.
Wart, that is interesting and would work. Although I didn't realize there was a culture/religion marker on the units. I will have to see if I can find it.
If you open the file in excel, it's column AG. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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