View Full Version : Creative Assembly AI cheating
*DEVELOPERS* Just had a brainstorm. Since the AI is supposed to figure out its turn based on the situation at the start of the turn - why not just have the AI figure out its moves BEFORE THE PLAYER gets the chance to. It only takes 5-10 seconds for the AI to figure out what its doing the player is not likely to mind much and really as far as coding (done some myself) just move the section where it calculates up but keep the section where it displays it as is. Totally eliminates cheating - since players have not made up thier minds yet ! How come this has not been done yet ?
de la Valette
10-15-2002, 19:24
Cause if the player goes last then they have an advantage that they will definitely use (thereby cheating as you have termed it).
As most players already find the AI a breeze even on expert/hard (not including myself in that!) allowing the player to react to the AI's moves would make it far too easy as there would be very few risks.
cart6566
10-15-2002, 19:33
ECS gave a helpful explanation of the AI behavior perceived as "cheating" in this thread:
http://www.totalwarforums.com/viewthread.php?tid=2048
You missed the point, The AI does not take any action - including showing its planed moves until the end turn button is pushed. It just does its calculations in the beginning instead of the end and keeps them in memory as varibles.
As to the players cheating they would have to somehow find what variables the AI is using to keep its moves and "Somehow" crack into these values that are in memory - (not even comitted to file). Seems like a lot of work if its even possible - cracking variables in memory.
And as to the AI cheating I have prooved for myself. As have others, with regard to the Emissary/Priest/Assasin issue. The Emissary/Priest sits still for 10-20 turns until an assasin is assigned - and lo and behold - he suddenly starts a world wide journey - the SAME turn you assign the assasin. Yet in replays if the assasin is not assigned, the emissary stays put.
de la Valette
10-15-2002, 19:48
Oh ok wasn't clear from your post sorry!
Ya the AI seeing your assassins is stupid. I can see some points of the ai moving its armies around as gameplay issue to help the AI be little more challenge. But thier is no excuse for the ai dogging assasins. That does not make the game harder it just makes assasins useless agaist Strategic pieces. Needs to be fixed.
I have no problem at all with the way the AI makes it's moves currently.
If you don't want enemy factions reinforcing provinces, just attack the potential reinforcements at the same time.
Invasions on 3 fronts are so satisfying.
Thats fine if you have spare forces available, however attacking on multiple fronts is a "work around" and should not be expected of players.
solypsist
10-15-2002, 20:45
the AI is always aware of your king's position. Whereas your own emissaries must hunt the other king down to deliver diplomacy.
eat cold steel
10-15-2002, 21:01
> with regard to the Emissary/Priest/Assasin issue. The Emissary/Priest sits still for 10-20 turns until an assasin is assigned - and lo and behold - he suddenly starts a world wide journey...
> Ya the AI seeing your assassins is stupid. Needs to be fixed.
Did I not just explained that the AI doesn't not know about your assassination attempts. See the thread in the com on the link above.
Thanks for replying ECS. Your responese in the .com forum was
"> Strategic units 'Sixth Sense'. They know it's coming Not true. They all have their own mission; they are all chasing their own targets, converting the population. You don’t get to see enemy assassins, you have no idea how many close call your emissary have had simply because you moved him away to another province. If you have any border fort then you’ll know how many assassins and spies you catch each turn, and remember you are not told if another faction kills an assassin who just so happens to be targeting your agents."
From the other hreads they are saying is since the actions before the end of turn are used as a random number generator I cant recreate the "Running from Spies" issue since of course if I do anythin different it is not a valid test.
OK but this just disproves the test, not the issue of it happening.
Your response says basically "since you dont see it happening it isnt true". Again I have to take that on blind faith - And I trust you - but you too have indicated other employees are responsible for the AI part of the project in other posts.
Why dont they just move the AI calculations to the start of the turn in the NEXT GAME in the series and use another point for the ramdom number generation ? Then there would be NO NEED to say "Theres no cheating" since the AI move would already be done before the player gets a chance for input.
Again thanks for reading and replying ECS and sorry for the shouting. :-)
It is very disconcerting to see that the AI does things differently to its own advantage after a save/restart test over and over again. I think there must be some kind of "leak" of information if this was not a planned feature. It's just too spooky to explain as simple coincidence.
eat cold steel
10-15-2002, 21:37
Well you could put on god mode and see what enemy agents are doing.
As for moving the AI to the beginning, it would require fiddling with old shogun code which could break everything, something I am not going to try any time soon...
> but you too have indicated other employees are responsible for the AI part of the project.
They did the crap bit. The good bits are all mine!
Quote Originally posted by eat cold steel:
Well you could put on god mode and see what enemy agents are doing.
As for moving the AI to the beginning, it would require fiddling with old shogun code which could break everything, something I am not going to try any time soon...
> but you too have indicated other employees are responsible for the AI part of the project.
They did the crap bit. The good bits are all mine![/QUOTE]
FYI, I forward this response to the rest of the CA team http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Grifman
Hakonarson
10-16-2002, 05:08
A test of 1 occasion (where the AI emisary moves or didn't move) proves nothign at all.
Do it 30 times, then get back to us! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I don't agree that the AI cheat as much as ppl say.
The only "AI-cheat" that I see (apart from the legit difficulty-ones described in the .com-thread) is the movement of crusades. It can't all be a pathfinding bug.
I've had a french crusade walk back and forth between poland (my province) and bohemia for over 20 years. Its target is Edessa. You can handle this by producing lots of peasants and shove them in the way of the crusade - eventually it will get so big it will move off, but it's REALLY annoying in the meantime, and I can't do this with my own crusades.
GilJaysmith
10-16-2002, 14:35
Quote Originally posted by Grifman:
FYI, I forward this response to the rest of the CA team http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
[/QUOTE]
Mmmmm...
In unrelated (and very sad) news, I have to announce that this morning ECS was shot dead by several mystery hitmen. All of us - er, them - escaped before anyone could stop them.
Swoosh So
10-16-2002, 14:41
Lol how can a computer cheat? It may get more money see your moves etc but you cant call it cheating, YOU cheat! you use a human brain with more decision making capabilities than the computer! Iwant an option to turn the human brain off! GilJay! Patch iT!
eat cold steel
10-16-2002, 16:56
> In unrelated (and very sad) news, I have to announce that this morning ECS was shot dead by several mystery hitmen. All of us - er, them - escaped before anyone could stop them.
Nooooo, now the next Total War will be rubbish......
falaffel
10-16-2002, 17:34
LOL!!!!!!
PS: We just got confirmation that there is going to be a sequel. Although it will
mostly be crap!
/Falaffel
[This message has been edited by falaffel (edited 10-16-2002).]
LOL
BTW good eyes there Falaffel.
Papewaio
10-16-2002, 17:53
I can see a very big problem with the AI going first even if it is not displayed.... save the game and then end turn...see what the AI does... reload and then play.
This would be a temptation to large for some in trying to finish the campaign as quickly as possible and claim 'I finished MTW on Expert in 80 years' etc.
Any 'cheating' by the AI which levels the field to make it a decent fight is good in my books.
I would like to see the AI at its tactical most brilliant on the battlefield while not using stat modifications to the troops... if that is possible I would love to battle it even if I lost 9 out of 10 times... the best way to learn is from a superior opponent.
GilJaysmith
10-16-2002, 19:05
Quote Originally posted by falaffel:
PS: We just got confirmation that there is going to be a sequel. Although it will
mostly be crap!
[/QUOTE]
rofl
No comment!
Reload cheat is fixed easily too. Just have the game recalc its move whenever it loads a saved game. And use the seconds of the PC's clock for your ramdom number generator at the start of the turn.
Now unless the player "clocks" the save game and starts it at exactly the same time his last (saved) turn started (1 out of 60), his new loaded game will have a new random number to work off of.
To a programmer you have control of all the variables. You can choose what to use and when. Just use variables the players can not see and can not duplicate over 50+ tries and your set - no cheating.
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