Using muskets en masse

[mir]

Hi again everyone.

I'm playing as the Turks in my current Grand Campaign and I'm don't seem to be using my Janissary Musketeers very well.

When I line up my army for battle, I usually place Archers and Musketeers in front to begin with followed by Janissary Heavy Infantry (JHI) behind. Cavalry in the wings to envelop the enemy.

This starts off well - the enemy advances into a hail of arrows and lead and loses much of their strength. Sometimes they even break before reaching my lines.

Once they're close enough to charge, I retreat my Archers and Musketeers to the rear and bring the JHI forward to engage.

It's ok for the Archers who can fire OVER the JHI and into the unengaged enemy behind the forward troops (who by now are locked in combat with the JHI).

Problem is - the Musketeers can only fire straight so their line of sight is blocked by the JHI and they end up shooting their own comrades in the back.

:embarassed: :no: :sweatdrop:


My question is - What is the most effective and efficient way to use muskets in large numbers to ensure they keep firing at the enemy constantly without hitting my own troops?


Appreciate any suggestions. Consider this also an exercise in preparation for Empire: Total War... Hehehe.

[phonicsmonkey]

I've never had great success with muskets without micro-managing them a fair bit

try starting them out in front but on the flanks so they get a few rounds off into the advancing enemy line, then dropping them back and going around the side to form up behind the pinned enemy infantry and fire into their backs

ouch!

[Severus]

And this is as it should be, afterall it wouldnt be very realistic if musket balls could be fired in the same trajectory as an arrow! Maybe you could run your archers out to the flanks and protect them with a unit of infantry or cavalry.

[Ravencroft]

Try turning fire at will off.

That way, you can maneuver them very close to the back of the (bogged down) enemy then fire! That way, you get a lot of kills, and it may even start a mass rout.

Now I use that with camel gunners, I get a lot of kill with them.

[Caliburn]

I like to use gunpowder first in front of the lines, and then retreat them behind the melee infantry. From there they'll circle to the flanks, while light/medium cavalry covers enemy cavalry, and (possibly) horse archers run to the rear of the enemy formation.

If there's a mass of good melee gunpowder guys (or crossbows, Aventurios for example) and I'm using pikes, I'll just let part of them sit in front of the pikes. Usually it doesn't take much to rout the enemy army with a couple of gunpowder guys in the flanks and a couple of cavalry units charging into their backs. With pikes behind them, the gunpowder guys don't even nessessarily get many casualties, as the already weakened enemy is likely to rout all too quickly.

Not that the enemy too often manages to engage the line if you have missile-heavy army with a wing of horse archers, or even just light cavalry... As Venice I've had good results even with a cheap pike/musket/Militia Cavalry setup, but that's partially because the computer is stupid and can't think properly...

Don't know about the Mongols and Timurids, though, and I haven't played infantry-heavy stacks as the Turkish.

[Yaropolk]

i always avoided using muskets for just that reason, however there is a historical battle (HRE + Spain vs France) where HRE's muskets start out lined up behind their pikes, with France about to charge your lines. If you don't move them from this position the muskets will fire THROUGH the pike ranks and decimate the french charge.

[Eikon the Magistrate]

You may find it easier and safer to deploy musketeers on the flanks of your army
where they can easily be moved to outflank your opponent. Musketeers are fire by rank so I find it better to not deploy in the front of your force at least not en masse because once you have to run them through your front line to reposition, you are losing time and you are affecting not only the musket fire but the formation of the unit/s it is running through.

Also, if you deploy musketeer or other long range missile units en masse and away from the rest of your units, you are able to draw many units away as the attacker becomes split between attacking a INF line or w/e you have and chasing your missile units about.

Since musketeers arent front line material at all, it makes more sense to use what strengths they DO have which is range and accuracy to your advantage rather than tempt the attacker to engage a crowd of mixed units at your front line. If you want to mix guns with swords use handgunners in your front line since they are not fire by rank (mixed results as always with handgunners) :inquisitive:

[BananaBob]

I never pull back my Jainissary Musketeers. They can hold themselves well enough for my JHI to flank the enemy. Whenever I don't have the Melee profeciant Jainissary or Cossacks, I make sure I have a line of good pikes (I usually aim for Swiss unless I'm HRE Spain and Portugal) or Heavy infantry in front of my muskets on a hill, so that my muskets are on a higher elevation.

I find that the mass muskets are not amazing for damage, but combined with an assortment of gunpowered goodies you'll have even elite troops running in fear.

[oz_wwjd]

I tried mass muskets as city defense using Portugal.8 Portuguese Arquebusiers 3 musketeers,2 basiliks,with my general and 6 jinettes on the wings.First Milan tried to bring their miltia corssbow horde to face my troops but routed as soon as they got into range,due to the mass cannon,javelin and musketfire they walked into...

[Old Geezer]

Has anyone tried using a mass of musketeers against the Timurids and their elephants?

[Henry707]

I agree with monkey. I have never had much success with firearms. I suppose one of the great things about the game is that we can all play according to our own style...

For example, lots of peeps love horse archer, I'm not a big fan. I like archers in shiney uniforms like the guard archers. I love crossbows.

Anyway, I have never really got to grips with firearms so don't know any great ways of useing them !!!

Henri

[Eikon the Magistrate]

Has anyone tried using a mass of musketeers against the Timurids and their elephants?

In short yes, and elephants go down fast to gunfire as all units do. Multiple stacks of tims will result in defeat of course but stack on stack it is a match.

Muskets are, as I oft post, the best ranged unit in MTW2. The only thing they lack is a horse/camel.I still havent tried camel gunners which would be 2 cherries on top of the gun-cake Im sure.

Muskets will kill ANY unit 1 on 1 except for perhaps an elephant or cav charge there is no other match.

2 ranks deep and on the flanks = screenshots of carnage.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is it possible to superimpose musket units atop one another, manually switch them to "fire at will" in a timed, staggered sequence, and thus create a constant wall of fire at one or two points on the battle line?

This would be useful for channelling attacks onto the pikes etc.

[Caliburn]

I agree with that Musketeers at the flanks are a good idea, but my armies usually consist of part gunpowder, part melee archer or meleeable crossbow elements in addition to the pikes. Putting your high-defence archers makes the pikemen stand longer using pikes, while the gunpowder units decimate/demoralize the other troops. On approach the enemy loses quite a few men too.

If I don't use pikes, they're even handier in the flanks. Drawing enemy units and supported by medium/light cavalry while the main army fights the other half of the enemy army, and afterwards you can mop up the rest of the attackers with musketeers and light cavalry. The same setup I used since Shogun, but with Pikes I like to mix things a bit.

I haven't tried Handgunners too much, as they don't have enough range as a missile unit and there are better units for charging the flanks (cavalry mostly).

[Old Geezer]

The problem I see with musketeers is their very slow rate of fire which makes them so vulnerable to cavalry charges. They don't withdraw fast enough and when caught they switch to rubber knives -all of them - even the ones very far away from the melee. They just stand their with stupid knives in their hands, aaaargh.

The only place I have found them useful is when I am defending on a hill behind some infantry.

[khaos83_2000]

I usually place my musketeers on higher ground and have the fighting happen on lower ground. This will solve the problem.

If it is flat ground... then i have to move my musketeers to the flanks when the infantry clashes.

[Dragoon Lord]

In the Americas campaign I found musketeers to be very useful for sallies and assaults.

For sallies I would move them to the flanks of the besieging army and would keep my cavalry nearby. I would have one group of musketeers move into range and fire. If an enemy unit tried to chase them I'd move them back to safety and send another group to attack.

For assaults I'd first destroy the walls with artillary. The ai would then move melee units to the breaches in the wall. I'd then move my musketeers into a good spot to fire at those troops. The ai tried to use its archers against them but before they reached the walls I moved my musketeers back. If I recall correctly, after three breaches in the wall the ai woudl move its army back to the town centre.

For field battles I found them difficult to use and I havn't yet tried to defend a settlement with musketeers but for a group of only 40 (in the Americas campaign) they do a lot of damage.

[PBI]

Make sure you have them deployed in a line of only two deep, so that their rate of fire will be reasonable and they won't get stuck reforming forever. As Eikon said, they are the most powerful missile unit in the game, but they aren't a panacea. I use them in two-line deep formation, in an unbroken line in front of my infantry, the same as I would with archers. I usually find that by the time I have to pull them back they have already dealt critical damage to the enemy and the ensuing infantry battle is usually over quickly.

The reason they don't seem that effective is because the AI is employing exactly the correct tactics to use against musketeers, i.e. rush forward as quickly as possible to minimise the time they are under fire. To be fair, the AI uses this tactic whatever units you happen to bring but with muskets it just happens to be the right one. Of course, if the AI is ever stupid enough to stand-off against your muskets (e.g. horse archers) the muskets will massacre them so take full advantage of it.

Don't overestimate the benefit of your archers being able to fire over your infantry; they aren't very effective used like this, their accuracy is reduced and they are liable to hurt your own men as much as the enemy. The English longbows had exactly this problem at Bannockburn. In my experience, by the time the infantry lines clash, the job of the missiles should already be done.

As for using guns in cities, expect a lot of frustration and swearing at the computer. My only advice is to either play on the smallest unit size, so their formation won't get messed up in the streets, or else delete the "fire_by_rank" attribute in the unit file; otherwise, they will get a nasty case of the reforming bug (this will have the side effect of doubling their rate of fire).

[Abokasee]

I have experiment with 100% musket armies, with a good amount of sucess, however, it does require some skill:

The long line
Probably the most basic, and most likely to lose you the battle or grant you the ultimate victory, essentialy spread your units in a long line and make the unit 1 man or the amount It will let you deep, and all possible men wide, this way nearly all the men can shoot, how ever, if they get charged...

The Moving block
Quite difficult and quite effective
Put In a formation your happy with, along with deepness and wideness, then put the formation in a block,
The first unit should fire, after it has fired, order the next unit to advance infront of it to fire, and so on, when the enemy are near, order the front row to fire then move to the back, same for all the other rows, repeat that until victory is granted, how ever you may be butchered by cavalry armies

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[mir]

Try turning fire at will off.

That way, you can maneuver them very close to the back of the (bogged down) enemy then fire! That way, you get a lot of kills, and it may even start a mass rout.

Now I use that with camel gunners, I get a lot of kill with them.

Wow, thanks for the replies, everyone!

Ravencroft, where/how do I turn this ability off? Is it in the game script? Because it's not a button/ability I can use in the battle...

I've been experimenting with all-Janissary armies in Custom Battles. Fielded an army of 4 units EACH of Janissary Heavy Infantry, Archers and Musketeers. It seems to work somewhat.

I deploy the Archers at the front initially, with their sharpened stakes deployed. As soon as the battle begins, I retreat them to the rear and the Musketeers come forward.

Only when the enemy is close do I charge the JHI forward to engage while the Musketeers re-deploy to the flanks. This tactic works quite well even against elite units.