Arab Lazyness, Bad as us Americans?

[Vladimir]

I know we have a severe defect of Easterners here but I would like to ask a question. I've been hearing a lot lately about how Arab culture looks down on manual labor in much the same way as medieval Spaniards did and many Americans do. It is said that Arabs generally prefer management and supervisory roles as they view manual labor as beneath their station.

Is this true? If so, is it more true in a rigid monarchy like Saudi Arabia? Or is it just too damn hot to pour asphalt over the burning desert sand?

:turtle:

[HoreTore]

I know we have a severe defect of Easterners here but I would like to ask a question. I've been hearing a lot lately about how Arab culture looks down on manual labor in much the same way as medieval Spaniards did and many Americans do. It is said that Arabs generally prefer management and supervisory roles as they view manual labor as beneath their station.

I think you're describing nobility anywhere here....

Or in modern times, middle class and above. Lazy gits.

[InsaneApache]

Hang on, why are the middle classes lazy gits? Or are you one of those that believes unless you get your hands dirty then you haven't done a a days work?

As someone who was born into a working class background and bettered myself, I can recall plenty of lazy working class gits. Plenty.

[Vladimir]

Maybe he's referring to those born into the middle class. They have less of a tendency to want to work their way up out of their comfort(able) zone.

[HoreTore]

Hang on, why are the middle classes lazy gits? Or are you one of those that believes unless you get your hands dirty then you haven't done a a days work?

Because being middle class generally means you have a management/theoretical type job, which the OP referred to?

[InsaneApache]

In that case he's insulting my kids then.:wall:

[InsaneApache]

Because being middle class generally means you have a management/theoretical type job, which the OP referred to?

So you are saying that unless you get your hands mucky then you're a lazy git.

[HoreTore]

In that case he's insulting my kids then.:wall:

I'm confident that ol' daddy 'pache will show them the ropes ~;)

[HoreTore]

So you are saying that unless you get your hands mucky then you're a lazy git.

No, but the OP classed supervision as being lazy...

[InsaneApache]

No, not lazy, beneath them.

[HoreTore]

No, not lazy, beneath them.

Well for that I would classify them as bastards... But I can definitely understand reasons such as "worse pay", "don't want to" and "not to my liking".

But I'll never, ever understand people who takes their car to the workshop and pays for an oil change... That's laziness, plain and simple.

[Vladimir]

I'm confident that ol' daddy 'pache will show them the ropes ~;)

So we're back to the Democracy thread? The common man is an idiot but my friends and I aren't common men.

And I REFUSE to pick lettuce for $5.00 an hour. That's like 3 Euros. :thumbsdown:

[HoreTore]

So we're back to the Democracy thread? The common man is an idiot but my friends and I aren't common men.

And I REFUSE to pick lettuce for $5.00 an hour. That's like 3 Euros. :thumbsdown:

Huh?

[Samurai Waki]

My Dad worked himself up from the working class, to well... above middle class. He never once shied away from helping out his employees on construction projects, and would 90% of the time be found helping them rather than doing paperwork (which he usually left me to do) :laugh4: . But I agree he was the exception rather than the rule, and he taught me and my older brother the same ethic. I would rather chop my own wood than drive down to the Mill to pick some up and pay for it, I always do my own Fixes at the house and never hire anyone to do it (unless it's something in the plumbing or an electrical problem).

[Vladimir]

Huh?

You were saying that middle class people are lazy except for your friends who are middle class. I wonder what "class" you and your family fall under?

That's how it works, us vs. them and etc. The average person is an idiot but no one ever perceives themselves as average. That's kind of the point of the original post: Arabs are lazy unlike us tough working [Nationality].

[HoreTore]

You were saying that middle class people are lazy except for your friends who are middle class. I wonder what "class" you and your family fall under?

I'm not middle class.

And the "Lazy gits" in my first post wasn't something I meant, that was stolen from the first post...

[Gregoshi]

But I'll never, ever understand people who takes their car to the workshop and pays for an oil change... That's laziness, plain and simple.

<cancels appointment at the garage...> :embarassed:

[Adrian II]

I know we have a severe defect of Easterners here but I would like to ask a question. I've been hearing a lot lately about how Arab culture looks down on manual labor in much the same way as medieval Spaniards did and many Americans do. It is said that Arabs generally prefer management and supervisory roles as they view manual labor as beneath their station.

Is this true? If so, is it more true in a rigid monarchy like Saudi Arabia? Or is it just too damn hot to pour asphalt over the burning desert sand?

:turtle:

~:handball:

*awaiting first Arab*

[Rhyfelwyr]

Everyone knows Scots are the hardest workers in the world.

Or we would be if we weren't all either morbidly obese, chronically malnourished, or collapsing with heart attacks in our 40's.

[Vladimir]

~:handball:

*awaiting first Arab*

*holds breath*

.

.

.

.

.

:fainting:

[Adrian II]

*holds breath*

.

.

.

.

.

:fainting::skull:

*faint echo of ticking clock*

[Rhyfelwyr]

This is pretty tense.

:feedback:

[InsaneApache]

~:handball:

*awaiting first Arab*

I live in Bradford and I like curry. I'm almost a moslem, do I count? :inquisitive: :laugh4:

[Adrian II]

I live in Bradford and I like curry. I'm almost a moslem, do I count? :inquisitive: :laugh4:

You'll have to do.

Now then, Mr Muslim, how are the middle classes in Saudi Arabia shaping up these days? Hm?

Speak up, man! https://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5514/toffgifmh1.gif (https://imageshack.us)

[InsaneApache]

You'll have to do.

Now then, Mr Muslim, how are the middle classes in Saudi Arabia shaping up these days? Hm?

Speak up, man! https://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5514/toffgifmh1.gif (https://imageshack.us)

I nearly did as well. :laugh4:

Buggers. :2thumbsup:

[Tribesman]

The class system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIMzWHdKxPY

[InsaneApache]

The class system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIMzWHdKxPY

Thas nowt loik bein four decades out. Mind when did that ever stop the left. :laugh4:

[Adrian II]

?
https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9992/aliot7.gif (https://imageshack.us)

[Fragony]

In my experience after they show up late they do as little as possible, if they show up at all completily useless. When I worked as a contracter every aplication remotily sounding arab ---> bin

[Adrian II]

In my experience after they show up late they do as little as possible, if they show up at all completily useless. When I worked as a contracter every aplication remotily sounding arab ---> bin
!
https://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1069/ali2nq8.gif (https://imageshack.us)

[Tribesman]

When I worked as a contracter every aplication remotily sounding arab ---> bin
Well there you go , what better example of racist bigotry can you possibly post frag , though I am sure if you tried hard you could do a better one

[Fragony]

Well there you go , what better example of racist bigotry can you possibly post frag , though I am sure if you tried hard you could do a better one

Racist bigotry, sure is, but I did it for the money not for a pat on the back from multicultists, and to earn money you have to get the job done and you don't get the job done with arabs, wrong mentality. I did take anything ending with a ' ski' , affirmative action mia muca.

[Adrian II]

Racist bigotry, sure is, but I did it for the money not for a pat on the back from multicultists, and to earn money you have to get the job done and you don't get the job done with arabs, wrong mentality. I did take anything ending with a ' ski' , affirmative action mia muca.

...

https://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1979/ali3ey0.gif (https://imageshack.us)

[Geoffrey S]

Rather than considering it 'laziness', it is perhaps far more productive to view Arab labor mentalities within the cultural context wherein they operate, or, the incompatibility of Arab forms of production based on kinship and relative prestige with our rigidly defined merit-based economy, if I may.

/pseudo-cultural anthropologist

[Vladimir]

Rather than considering it 'laziness', it is perhaps far more productive to view Arab labor mentalities within the cultural context wherein they operate, or, the incompatibility of Arab forms of production based on kinship and relative prestige with our rigidly defined merit-based economy, if I may.

/pseudo-cultural anthropologist

Well, go on...[Adrian smiley]

[Adrian II]

Well, go on...[Adrian smiley]https://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4424/aligif1kt5.gif (https://imageshack.us)

[Husar]

I usually appreciate arab-looking ladies in boutiques and the turks I know are pretty good workers from what I hear and see. Not sure whether one can consider turks arabs though. :shrug:

I think Frag's approach is a bit one-sided but I can see that after a lot of negative experiences one would start to discriminate, I hear the arabs do it as well and will think you're a good worker when you're a european or something like that. :shrug:

Overall job requirements are often complete rubbish anyway though, just like the processes they use to weed out applicants. Just my opinion but just because someone makes more than three mistakes in writing doesn't mean she/he is a bad worker, work environments in general seem pretty weird to me, on one hand the recruiters talk about how harsh they are, how you have to make yourself look perfect(even to the point of implying you have to lie to them :dizzy2: ) and on the other hand you get this (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/study_finds_working_at_work)(guess the orgahs coming here from work can support this last point :laugh4: ).

[Don Corleone]

No, not lazy, beneath them.

HoreTore's a socialist, bordering on Communist. Remember, anybody that's part of 'middle management' is even more of an enemy than the capitalistas themselves.

I do think this assessment to be rather amusing. As I've progressed the rungs of the ladder, and gotten 'lazier' as Hore Tore would say it, my work week has increased from 45 hours a week to 75 hours a week. Any 'lazier' and I'll just never leave work. :laugh4:

As for 'Arabs' being lazy, or considering certain work beneath them... well, when I worked in construction, i didn't come across too many. I will say it was my fellow whites, not blacks or mexicans that tended to be the laziest on the jobsite. My boss said i was the only white apprentice he ever wanted to hang onto (he was white too).

In my life as an engineer, just when you establish a cultural stereotype, somebody comes along to dash it, so I've learned to quit wasting my time trying to look for trends. I don't find the Arabic fellows I've worked with to be particularly aristocratic. At least, no more than anybody else. Everybody I hire comes in from the University thinking they'll be on Mahogany Row in 5 years, tops.

[Tribesman]

Show me the MONEY$$$

Well Vlad I would show you the earlier post that was deleted , but making an observation about what our self declared racist bigot said is apparently deserving of warning points .
Strange world isn't it , someone can make a racist comment , then confirm themselves that they are indeed a racist bigot , but if you note that they are a racist bigot it is not allowed .
So since I cannot call Fragony a racist bigot all I can do is repeat his words .



Racist bigotry, sure is, but I did it for the money

:2thumbsup:

Font-scream adjusted. ~Kukri

[Vladimir]

Well Vlad I would show you the earlier post that was deleted , but making an observation about what our self declared racist bigot said is apparently deserving of warning points .
Strange world isn't it , someone can make a racist comment , then confirm themselves that they are indeed a racist bigot , but if you note that they are a racist bigot it is not allowed .
So since I cannot call Fragony a racist bigot all I can do is repeat his words .



:2thumbsup:

Yes, all part of those "wonderful human foibles" our instructor likes to tell us about. I hope he was just being excessively Fragadelic in his post because over here you can get in serious trouble for doing things like that.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I won't claim any knowledge of the laws applicable in the Netherlands, but I suspect that if any slighted job applicant could prove that what Frag' was doing was a clearly discriminatory pattern in hiring, then Frag and/or his firm would be liable for some serious lawsuit damages.


Tribes:

I think what you're referring to is fairly commonplace. A poster's display of his own viewpoint, as long as it does not attack another, is legitimate however insipid others find that viewpoint to be.

Your post characterizing it was clearly marked as a comment on the post and NOT directed at Fragony. Your implicit characterization of him was clear, but you held yourself within the letter of the law.

You may view the post as egregious, but may not directly attack the poster without incurring some penalty.

All in all, however, I think you made your point -- dwelling on it would be redundant.

[Tribesman]

I know Seamus , but I wonder if next time someone makes a post complaiming about arabs on welfare in the Netherlands if it can be squarely blamed on racist scum who work in employment agencies and stop them from getting jobs , plus of course since there is a reasonable statistical link between unemployment and crime , perhaps next time someone makes a post complaining about arab criminals in the netherlands it can be squarely blamed on racist scum who stop them from getting jobs , and obviously next time someone makes a post complaining about arabs not fitting in with society in the netherlands can it be blamed on racist scum who treat them like **** ?

[HoreTore]

HoreTore's a socialist, bordering on Communist. Remember, anybody that's part of 'middle management' is even more of an enemy than the capitalistas themselves.

I do think this assessment to be rather amusing. As I've progressed the rungs of the ladder, and gotten 'lazier' as Hore Tore would say it, my work week has increased from 45 hours a week to 75 hours a week. Any 'lazier' and I'll just never leave work. :laugh4:

I'll still say that you(and probably all of us) are being lazier than than the average Ching Chinaman who carries boulders for 16 hours a day.

But the first post was the one who called middle management type jobs lazy. I just repeated it in my post ~;)

To make it perfectly clear; no, I don't think that's laziness. I do, however, believe that it is easier than heavy manual labour.

[spmetla]

EDIT:
I came across much more of a bigot than I am, shameful post.

[Redleg]

To make it perfectly clear; no, I don't think that's laziness. I do, however, believe that it is easier than heavy manual labour.

Well I have done both in my life - and heavy manual labour while physically hard is far less stressful then many of the middle-management/leadership jobs I have held.

Until you have to make life influencing decisions that effect others besides your family - the physical task only seems harder. So hard pysical labor is far easier to having to make decisions that can have terrible effects on those you supervise or lead.

[InsaneApache]

To make it perfectly clear; no, I don't think that's laziness. I do, however, believe that it is easier than heavy manual labour.

When I left school and went into the building trade I did an awful lot of heavy manual labour, an awful lot. Sometimes I was that knackered I could hardly walk home.

When I started my own business I got other people to do the heavy manual labour, whilst I got on with running the business. Tax returns, VAT, stock control, re-stocking, wages, negotiating contracts/leases etc. etc.

I can tell you from experience which of the two, very different jobs, was the hardest. I'll give you a clue, it had nowt to do with pushing wheelbarrows about.

There's a lot to be said for knocking off on a Friday afternoon with a wage packet in your pocket and no more worries than where you're going out that weekend.

I was the worse boss I'd ever had. True. :yes:

Redleg beat me to it. The sentiment is the same though. Being responsible for people and a business is very hard work, not everyone is up to the task. Hard manual labour is a piece of piss in comparison.

[Don Corleone]

Yeah, when I was paying for school and going through it, I poured concrete. I have arthritis from tearing down forms and digging trenches in freezing weather. If it paid the same, I'd take it over my office job any day of the week.

[KukriKhan]

To the question posed:

Are Arabs lazy?

Are Americans lazy?

Are Arabs as lazy as Americans?

Does the Saudi Arabian governmental/cultural system lead Arabs to believe that they are entitled to managerial work, versus "blue-collar" work?

To all: not in my personal experience.

To the extended conversation, wherein a member proudly cites his own experience in making hiring decisions based on the sound of names:

I register my surprise that such actions are allowed in Europe. Such blatant discrimination would surely be sanctioned in the US, and result in both civil and criminal suits, and successful ones.

[Geoffrey S]

HoreTore, you sound jealous/bitter?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I register my surprise that such actions are allowed in Europe. Such blatant discrimination would surely be sanctioned in the US, and result in both civil and criminal suits, and successful ones.

In most countries, there are laws forbidding such discrimination. However, it is very difficult to prove at the c.v. (resume) "stage". Filtering out candidates by sound of name before they are interviewed can be done easily even in countries where the law is applied rigorously.

And therein lies the rub. Many EU countries, despite anti-discrimination legislation on the books, practice casual racism and no-one thinks twice. It is tolerated, ignored and sometimes institutionalised. I wasn't aware that the Netherlands was one of them, but Ireland certainly is. :shame:

Fragony's views are far more widespread than acknowledged in Europe, and most appallingly prevalent amongst the intelligensia. Fear creates a failure of reason even amongst those best equipped to understand the issues. That failure, however, is remarkably easy to challenge and expose - which is why personal insults are not needed.

[Fragony]

Well Vlad I would show you the earlier post that was deleted , but making an observation about what our self declared racist bigot said is apparently deserving of warning points .
Strange world isn't it , someone can make a racist comment , then confirm themselves that they are indeed a racist bigot , but if you note that they are a racist bigot it is not allowed .
So since I cannot call Fragony a racist bigot all I can do is repeat his words .



:2thumbsup:

Font-scream adjusted. ~Kukri

Strange world where you have to justify you hiring the hell you want to hire. And sure you can call me a racist bigot, doesn't mean anything when an extremist calls you that.

[HoreTore]

HoreTore, you sound jealous/bitter?

Why should I be? I have the lazy type of job too ~;)

And I'd have to disagree, mainly because the stress that comes with it is something I simply ignore... And instead of freaking out, I simply bill my employer for a few more hours of work... :laugh4:

But then, trying to start something for yourself may be a lot harder. Wouldn't know much about that, never tried it. But as my pay will be linked directly to what I do, I'd think that the rewards dangling in front of my eyes constantly would make me work more than I perhaps should, disregarding rest. Which is a certain way to ruin your body and mind. I've tried a lot of other jobs though, and I have to say that the hardest one has got to be the 10-13 hour days at the docks.

[Tribesman]

Strange world where you have to justify you hiring the hell you want to hire.
No Frag its the normal world where even racist scum are supposed to obey the law .
Apparently the law is supposed to prevent the application of mindless prejudice , but as racist scum are by their very nature mindless it doesn't really work for them .
Now some might say that racial prejudice is a form of mental deficiency , but that would be an insult to mental deficients .

[Adrian II]

I register my surprise that such actions are allowed in Europe. Such blatant discrimination would surely be sanctioned in the US, and result in both civil and criminal suits, and successful ones.Oh, we have all the laws, the police raids, the lawsuits, the fines, the financial compensations and the positive actions alright. But such attitudes are notoriously hard to pinpoint and even harder to wipe out.

I don't see why you should be surprised. I always refer Americans to discrimination of Mexicans in hiring, housing and the like in the U.S. and the accompanying talk of 'greasers', the radio talkshows warning against Latin Americans taking over and Spanish replacing English everywhere, and roadsigns saying 'If it's brown, flush it down'.

That usually makes the coin drop.

[Fragony]

No Frag its the normal world where even racist scum are supposed to obey the law .
Apparently the law is supposed to prevent the application of mindless prejudice , but as racist scum are by their very nature mindless it doesn't really work for them .
Now some might say that racial prejudice is a form of mental deficiency , but that would be an insult to mental deficients .

I broke no law, I just decided not to hire them because somebody else fits the job description better. Live the dream all you want, in a highly competitive enviroment you need to be competitive and need reliable workers. Arabs aren't relialible workers that's not my fault just the reality I had to deal with. Doing business is serious business, morality is a hobby for white elites from white neighbourhoods. You hire them if you think they are so fantastic, let's see if you are still slipping of your seat with multicultural desire.

Oh, we have all the laws, the police raids, the lawsuits, the fines, the financial compensations and the positive actions alright.

Another reason not to hire them, if they suddenly decide they want to pray in working time, or show up with a veil even if it was clear in the contract that a veil isn't acceptable you will never be able to get rid of them because of the equality-mafia. They are far too well protected.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I broke no law, I just decided not to hire them because somebody else fits the job description better. Live the dream all you want, in a highly competitive enviroment you need to be competitive and need reliable workers.

See Kukri, that's what they say to any inquiry so as to avoid prosecution. Hard to prove otherwise.


Arabs aren't relialible workers that's not my fault just the reality I had to deal with. Doing business is serious business, morality is a hobby for white elites from white neighbourhoods. You hire them if you think they are so fantastic, let's see if you are still slipping of your seat with multicultural desire.

But that's what is being muttered behind the facade. And an otherwise intelligent, well-read person can actually rationalise this stuff to themselves with a straight face.

"Morality is a hobby..." Sigh.

:no:

[Tribesman]

I broke no law:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
How dumb can a person really be yet still be able to breath :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


When I worked as a contracter every aplication remotily sounding arab ---> bin~:doh:
Here Frag , I know it might be hard for you but if you really try perhaps you can understand something real simple . So simple in fact that even your most mentaly deficient mental deficient should be able to understand .
Here read this really slowly and see if you can get a brain cell to function.....
Rejecting an employment appliction based purely on what a persons name is happens to be against the laws relating to discrimination in employment .


Here have a few clues ......

I register my surprise that such actions are allowed in Europe. Such blatant discrimination would surely be sanctioned in the US, and result in both civil and criminal suits, and successful ones.

In most countries, there are laws forbidding such discrimination

Oh, we have all the laws

Now such obvious things as employment laws should have been explained to you by your employer at the employment agency before you started work there . But perhaps you were too busy covering in fear from the Muslims who were out to get ya that you didn't listen , or maybe it went in one ear and out the other meeting nothing in between .

[Adrian II]

I broke no law, I just decided not to hire them because somebody else fits the job description better.My dear Fragony, when I moved house not too long ago, five of the six home movers were Arabs. One of them was a Christian, the other four were Muslims. They were
1. efficient
2. fast
3. polite
4. ready ahead of schedule, and guess what?
5. they were fun

Goes to show, doesn't it, that maybe one Arab is not quite like the other?

[Tribesman]

Goes to show, doesn't it, that maybe one Arab is not quite like the other?
Don't be silly Adrian , next thing is you are going to try and convince us that all Dutch are not gay pot smoking tulip loving herring eating people who live in windmills only ride bikes and wear wooden shoes ..who are you trying to kid everyone knows thats what the dutch are like and they are all the same .

[Redleg]

:
Now such obvious things as employment laws should have been explained to you by your employer at the employment agency before you started work there . But perhaps you were too busy covering in fear from the Muslims who were out to get ya that you didn't listen , or maybe it went in one ear and out the other meeting nothing in between .

Prejudice often means one is willing to either ignore the hiring laws or worse prevents them from actually understanding the law in the first place.

Neither is a valid defense for discrimination.

Fragony your entitled to your opinion - but unfortunely from what you have written here concerning your hiring pratice - I have to agree with everyone else. The practice of hiring someone based upon their race, is indeed a bigoted practice. Claiming that all arabs are lazy is the same as saying all Mexicans are lazy. Covering up such a practice by saying you hired better qualified people is one easily disproved if someone challenges your hiring practice.

Hussien might not be an unrelible worker but that does not make all Arabs unrelible as workers. Now I know several Johnny White's who are completely unrelible as workers - they are lazy, steal from the job site, shoddy in there workmanship does that make Johnny unrelible or does that make all Whites of European decent unrelible?

And in the United States such a hiring practice would result in huge fines to the employer, to include civil suits levied against the employer and the hiring manager, and would cost you your job.

[Redleg]

Don't be silly Adrian , next thing is you are going to try and convince us that all Dutch are not gay pot smoking tulip loving herring eating people who live in windmills only ride bikes and wear wooden shoes ..who are you trying to kid everyone knows thats what the dutch are like and they are all the same .

Darn does that mean my sterotype of the Dutch is wrong? :clown:

[Adrian II]

Darn does that mean my sterotype of the Dutch is wrong? :clown:No, everything they ever told you about the Dutch is an understatement, I'm afraid.

Banquo's Ghost is right, you know. There is a lot of double speak on this issue, and it has a long history. Like in the US you used to have open discrimination of blacks or Chinese in the past, we had the same with regard to Indonesians, Surinamese, Chinese and guest workers of various origins right up until the late 1960's or early 1970's.

The issue is now covered by law in a more or less watertight fashion, but the hidden discourse goes on and finds new means of expression. Race has become a no-no, so nowadays the talk is of 'cultural' attitudes, human resource spreading and all that.

And then there are the scares. The fact that a few hundred immigrant women in The Neds wear bungalow tents burqa's has become an excuse for preferential hiring of Dutch girls in lower end jobs (supermarket cashiers and such). I'm all for outlawing the darn things (just like the wearing of balaclava's in public) but as long as they are legal there are no statutory and certainly no moral grounds for firing of refusing to hire these women, let alone Arab women in general.

On the other hand it is too easy to blame bigotry for the substantial difference in employment rates between old and new Dutchmen. Apart from the obvious language problems of recent immigrants there is a big difference in level of education, stemming in large part from the fact that the first wave of immigrant workers was not educated or even semi-literate. This educational backlog is a real killer in an economic environment that emphasizes specific technical and communication skills more and more every day.

[Geoffrey S]

And isn't it funny, how previously ostracized minorities somehow miraculously become less lazy over time - thankfully, usually just in time for the next group of migrants...? :inquisitive:

[Fragony]

My dear Fragony, when I moved house not too long ago, five of the six home movers were Arabs. One of them was a Christian, the other four were Muslims. They were
1. efficient
2. fast
3. polite
4. ready ahead of schedule, and guess what?
5. they were fun

Goes to show, doesn't it, that maybe one Arab is not quite like the other?

So? Broad brush paints both ways I guess. My experiences are nothing but disaster and I act from extensive experience, and in my expierence dutch and polish are terrific workers so I took them over others yeah, running a business isn't a game. What's it up to anyone anyways who I want to hire my business my rules, I don't have to justify anything. Moralising gutmenschen can blow me dry, I didn't invite them here my percieved obligation to take part of the burden is zero. I do what is best for me.

And then there are the scares. The fact that a few hundred immigrant women in The Neds wear bungalow tents burqa's has become an excuse for preferential hiring of Dutch girls in lower end jobs (supermarket cashiers and such). I'm all for outlawing the darn things

No need to ban them law is just fine in public space you have to be recognisable so the burqa is already covered brilliantly. That the law isn't enforced is something else, some have rules and some have rights that is just the way of things.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And isn't it funny, how previously ostracized minorities somehow miraculously become less lazy over time - thankfully, usually just in time for the next group of migrants...? :inquisitive:

As an American of mixed Irish/Polish descent, this comment had me ROTFLMFAO.

Exactly!



Redleg:

Proving that someone is engaging in a functionally racist hiring practice at the CV/Resume level is more difficultthan you might think. The only way you can do it is if you have some means of reviewing appropriate records and establishing a clear pattern in interviewing/hiring practice. Are firms required to keep such records (copies of CV and the like)? For how long? If the records aren't kept, all they'd be liable for is the failure to maintain the records.

Large firms hiring in, say, Detroit (with it's large arabic-descent population) that have ZERO persons of Arabic descent on staff can get caught out because the odds of hiring thousands without ANY from such an ethnic background are pretty long and would seem suspicious. In a smaller firm however...

When I was part of a University department sitting on a hiring committee, we we're given the application packet of a candidate wherein all naming/age/ethnicity indicator information had been excised and replaced with a number -- but this is probably not the hiring practice expected of private industry for the most part.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So? Broad brush paints both ways I guess. My experiences are nothing but disaster and I act from extensive experience, and in my expierence dutch and polish are terrific workers so I took them over others yeah, running a business isn't a game. What's it up to anyone anyways who I want to hire my business my rules, I don't have to justify anything. Moralising gutmenschen can blow me dry, I didn't invite them here my percieved obligation to take part of the burden is zero. I do what is best for me.

Try having someone on your staff remove all of the names etc. from the CV's, letters of rec, and other applic materials. Then just look for those credentials and experience markers you think are important in a good employee. You may surprise yourself.

[Tribesman]

What's it up to anyone anyways who I want to hire my business my rules, I don't have to justify anything.
Someone hasn't got a clue about business :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


I didn't invite them here my percieved obligation to take part of the burden is zero. I do what is best for me.
Errrrrr.....if you choose to work for an emloyment agency then you are legally obliged to follow the countries laws on employment , if you don't like it then perhaps you can bugger off and see if you can find a country that doesn't have employment laws so you can choose to go and work there instead with no obligations .
Besides which only a numbnuts would expose their business to the possibility of an expensive law suit and that scale of financial loss or indeed their ability to even operate as a business at all .
Then again racists are not reknowned for their thinking abilities are they .

[Tribesman]

Proving that someone is engaging in a functionally racist hiring practice at the CV/Resume level is more difficultthan you might think.
No it isn't , just make two applications with everything identical apart from that which you think is being prejudiced against .
Then take it to the equality commision and watch the cash roll in .

[Fragony]

Someone hasn't got a clue about business :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

My soon to be mine recreation-house disagrees.

And it's like this, if a company asks me to avoid a certain group I am not allowed to comply because of silly laws, that's why they ask for someone with a dutch mentality. Then, I can cater them as I see fit, and since I know what they ask I can provide it. Well did because I don't do it anymore, too stressfull.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Just look at the stupid, lazy, thieving and disruptive terrorist immigrants, which upset the good immigrants from civilised places.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/aslanngrae/unclesamslodginghousecover2.jpg

Every last one of them should be sent back home. It's not right you know.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/aslanngrae/thsmiley_deadhorse.gif

[Fragony]

Typical, I didn't say they were thieving scum, I didn't say they should be send home, comes with the package I guess if you aren't a fan of multiculture you must hate every aspect it, a lot of christians were burned during the inquisition absolute faith and the monopoly on what's right hasn't changed one bit it's either this or that. Now I could say that I am not a racist and that I have muslim friends (and it's even true but that might be too hard to comprehend for the policor-brigades who can't destinguish between various shades of grey), but I'll take it easy and say I am not an intellectual because some of my best friends are stupid that somehow makes that much more sense to smart people.

[Tribesman]

Now I could say that I am not a racist and that I have muslim friends :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Where is Fragony the definately non racist who not only denies people the oppertunity of employment becuse they have arab sounding names but thinks that people are only found guilty because they are not of foriegn descent and anyone who foriegn who is found not guilty is really guilty but gets let off because they are foriegn .
Perhaps he is out with the Fragony that wants to go out at the weekend to beat up immigrants to teach them a lesson .:dizzy2:

Yes Fragony you can say you are not a racist , and I can say that I am not only the Pope but also the emperor of saturn and all its colonies .
Actually the latter is far more credible since there is no evidence that I am not indeed the emperor of saturn .

[InsaneApache]

Strictly speaking he's religionist which put him firmly on the left. :laugh4:

[spmetla]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Where is Fragony the definately non racist who not only denies people the oppertunity of employment becuse they have arab sounding names but thinks that people are only found guilty because they are not of foriegn descent and anyone who foriegn who is found not guilty is really guilty but gets let off because they are foriegn .
Perhaps he is out with the Fragony that wants to go out at the weekend to beat up immigrants to teach them a lesson .:dizzy2:

Yes Fragony you can say you are not a racist , and I can say that I am not only the Pope but also the emperor of saturn and all its colonies .
Actually the latter is far more credible since there is no evidence that I am not indeed the emperor of saturn .

Fragony I'm sorry to say but Tribesman is right, by definition you are a bigot and a racist. Strictly speaking I am as well which is why I changed my previous post:

racist
Main Entry:
Pronunciation:
\ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function:
noun
Date:
1933
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

bigot
One entry found.

bigot
Main Entry:
Pronunciation:
\ˈbi-gət\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French, hypocrite, bigot
Date:
1660

: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/)

[Fragony]

Already admitted to racial bigotry when hiring, you can go on proving it is but I know it is, but I don't care about that, I hire who I want to hire. Might be terrible to some but I don't feel obliged to take the burden of a reality I didn't create, that reality being a multicultural society, not my precious social experiment let it's supporters deal with it's multifaillure because I won't, didn't ask for it so don't ask anything from me I am going to go on doing things my own way.

[spmetla]

Before I edited my post I pointed out that I too am a bigot when picking people to work on our farm. I'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything because I do the same thing and I don't intend to change my ways.

[CountArach]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Where is Fragony the definately non racist who not only denies people the oppertunity of employment becuse they have arab sounding names but thinks that people are only found guilty because they are not of foriegn descent and anyone who foriegn who is found not guilty is really guilty but gets let off because they are foriegn .
Perhaps he is out with the Fragony that wants to go out at the weekend to beat up immigrants to teach them a lesson .:dizzy2:

Yes Fragony you can say you are not a racist , and I can say that I am not only the Pope but also the emperor of saturn and all its colonies .
Actually the latter is far more credible since there is no evidence that I am not indeed the emperor of saturn .
I love the "I'm not a racist, but..." argument.

[Tribesman]

Strictly speaking he's religionist which put him firmly on the left.
Not at all , say if Tariq Aziz had applied for a job oooo looky an araby name , in the bin he goes even though he called himself a christian didn't he .
So strictly speaking Frag is a racist and religeous bigot .


Might be terrible to some but I don't feel obliged to take the burden of a reality I didn't create
Frag wants to create an alternative reality:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


didn't ask for it so don't ask anything from me I am going to go on doing things my own way.
Hey Frag when I said you havn't got a clue about business you attempted to counter with your dream of a soon to be opened business .
It really looks like your cluelessness about business means it will be a soon to be open soon to be closed business .

[Fragony]

I love the "I'm not a racist, but..." argument.

me too


Now I could say that I am not a racist and that I have muslim friends (and it's even true but that might be too hard to comprehend for the policor-brigades who can't destinguish between various shades of grey), but I'll take it easy and say I am not an intellectual because some of my best friends are stupid that somehow makes that much more sense to smart people.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Typical, I didn't say they were thieving scum, I didn't say they should be send home, comes with the package I guess if you aren't a fan of multiculture you must hate every aspect it, a lot of christians were burned during the inquisition absolute faith and the monopoly on what's right hasn't changed one bit it's either this or that.

My point in characterising the cartoon in your terms (and you have said all of those things about Muslims at one time or another) is to demonstrate that your irrational fears have been applied to other groups, including white immigrants like the Irish. They were even accused of having a heathen religion dedicated to the overthrow of civilisation. Things change, stereotypes fall away.


Now I could say that I am not a racist and that I have muslim friends (and it's even true but that might be too hard to comprehend for the policor-brigades who can't destinguish between various shades of grey), but I'll take it easy and say I am not an intellectual because some of my best friends are stupid that somehow makes that much more sense to smart people.

I don't doubt that you have Muslim friends - racism is a funny thing in that we can have friends to whom we don't apply the stereotype - and by the way, I love the "can't distinguish between various shades of grey" crack coming from you :laugh4:. What I would like to know is how you talk with them about the issues you raise here - are you as rude to their faces as you are on this forum about the Muslim MenaceTM in general?

I suspect not. I suspect that you posture for effect on this forum. It's a pity, for there are important conversations to be had about multi-culturalism in Europe, and in the past you have raised some worthy points. You and your political kind do the debate much disservice by making it unabashedly racist in character.

[Adrian II]

This keeps getting funnier and funnier.

Frag tells us he is a racist and a bigot, and everybody scrambles to tell him that he is, well, a racist and a bigot.

Frag tells us he doesn't care what the law says, and everybody scrambles to tell him that's against the law.

Frag tells us he has made good money by acting the way he did, and then everybody scrambles to tell him his attitude is bad for business.

And this, my friends, is exactly why PC doesn't work. Millions of people in western countries don't care a hoot if you tell them this sort of attitude is bad for society because it's against the law because we made it so that the law forbids it, or because it's bad for yourself which it isn't because everyone can see that pays off.

If you want to convince people to change this attitude, you should convince them that it's bad per se, even if there were no law against it, and tat they should change it even if it meant that would cost them money instead of bring in money.

Now that's a tall order. I haven't figured it out yet.

[Banquo's Ghost]

And this, my friends, is exactly why PC doesn't work. Millions of people in western countries don't care a hoot if you tell them this sort of attitude is bad for society because it's against the law because we made it so that the law forbids it, or because it's bad for yourself which it isn't because everyone can see that pays off.

If you want to convince people to change this attitude, you should convince them that it's bad per se, even if there were no law against it, and tat they should change it even if it meant that would cost them money instead of bring in money.

Now that's a tall order. I haven't figured it out yet.

I'm not surprised, esteemed Adrian, because it would require a nobility of humanity hitherto undemonstrated by history.

PC is different from protective legislation. The argument that discrimination is bad for business is clearly misguided. Apartheid South Africa made some very good business, as did the segregated south of the US. It is clearly to the advantage of the ethnicity in charge to ensure their like gain employment, as this reinforces their position of power. Historical evidence may show that this is short-termism, but how many people take decisions based on generational benefits?

Legislation is sometimes required because no matter what you advise people, they will still act selfishly - and even counter-productively. As a critic of current capitalist mores, I find it surprising that you would believe the unregulated market would solve this problem through persuasion.

An exercise in extremes, if I may: Would we want the unregulated market to exploit the business opportunities afforded by child prostitution - a most lucrative trade? Millions of perverts in western society don't care a hoot if you tell them this sort of attitude is bad for society because it's against the law. Has education alongside the repugnance of society worked to stem the tide? Even better, children are a powerless minority, useful for many tasks such as chimney sweeping and mining otherwise inaccessible mineral veins. Why should the law protect them from legitimate business interests? It didn't previously, and the British Empire was much richer for it.

Political correctness - like all extremist positions - has compromised the perfectly reasonable progression towards enlightened employment law. But such employment law is absolutely necessary, and those who break it should not be encouraged or indulged, but jailed with extreme prejudice.

[Adrian II]

PC is different from protective legislation.Of course, dear Banquo. Maybe I should have elaborated on this difference my post, but I see you caught the gist of it with ease and so will others. What makes the .Org such a privileged forum is that we have hardly a genuine idiot participating in it. Nor is Fragony an idiot. Or a moral whore for that matter, because we all know that Fragony's stance on precisely the issue of child prostitution which you mentioned (you clever b******, you :beam:) is that every means, lawful or other, should be employed to stop it and punish the perpetrators, no matter if their trade is profitable or their moral relativism philosophically tenable.

I wonder how Fragony thinks about the comparison, whether he feels that child trafficking, prostitution and pornography are equally the traders' sole business and privilege, and whether he feels that the law should stick it's nose in it no further than into his own hiring practices.

[Tribesman]

I wonder how Fragony thinks about the comparison
Perhaps his soon to be recreation-house is in fact a brothel specialising in child prostitution .

[Tribesman]

oh I should add that it can only use Dutch children or possibly Polish as all the rest are too unreliable and lazy .

[Soulforged]

People from hot weathers TEND to be more lazy than people from cool weathers. This is biologically determined. For example: if you take the average person in Buenos Aires you'll see that he usually works fast, not always efficiently, but he's usually used to the hectic rythm of the city so he has no problem doing that. Now if you put a person from Jujuy (north of Argentina) in the same position you'll notice how he works slower, and, if you leave him be, you'll also see him taking small breaks.

It has nothing to do with race, it's about location and climate. Animals living on hot weathers reduce their vital cycle to a minimum posible to conserve water and energy, on the other hand the ones who live on cold weather do exactly the contrary to create heat and survive.

So organically speaking I can say that people living in Arabia or recently migrated from there will tend to be lazier than the average american, but we must remember that humans are not simple animals they've an spirit to overcome their natural lazyness, and under the right conditions they make use of it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

People from hot weathers TEND to be more lazy than people from cool weathers. This is biologically determined. For example: if you take the average person in Buenos Aires you'll see that he usually works fast, not always efficiently, but he's usually used to the hectic rythm of the city so he has no problem doing that. Now if you put a person from Jujuy (north of Argentina) in the same position you'll notice how he works slower, and, if you leave him be, you'll also see him taking small breaks.

It has nothing to do with race, it's about location and climate. Animals living on hot weathers reduce their vital cycle to a minimum posible to conserve water and energy, on the other hand the ones who live on cold weather do exactly the contrary to create heat and survive.

So organically speaking I can say that people living in Arabia or recently migrated from there will tend to be lazier than the average american, but we must remember that humans are not simple animals they've an spirit to overcome their natural lazyness, and under the right conditions they make use of it.

With all due respect, that is sheer nonsense.

If you had written "People IN hot weathers..." you may have a point as high temperatures can be draining. You may even have a point in regard to Latin America, though I might suggest it has more to do with Spanish heritage than biology.

Examples to sink your theory are Filipinos, from one of the hottest, most humid environments possible, yet universally acknowledged as hard workers abroad; and Indians who practically created the stereotype of the hard-working, corner-shop entrepreneurial immigrant.

One could go on with the Chinese, Koreans etc. Or juxtapose Russians from the cold north, who can be amongst the laziest workers ever found - though terrifically creative at the work of avoiding work.

Massive generalisations indeed, but since we are playing that game...

[Soulforged]

If you had written "People IN hot weathers..."
Sorry, that's what I meant, the rest of my post suggests that actually. Though my theory is indeed weak, I was just trying to play a little Montesquieu.:embarassed:

To tell you the truth my limited experience suggests that people in hot weathers or those who come from hot weathers and have to adapt (and many times they can't) tend to be quite lazy, hell I'm lazy some times. But it's true that I'm no authority to talk about this properly.

[CrossLOPER]

One could go on with the Chinese, Koreans etc. Or juxtapose Russians from the cold north, who can be amongst the laziest workers ever found - though terrifically creative at the work of avoiding work.
wat

[Geoffrey S]

That was pretty much my reaction when I clicked on the advert in your signature. Is that kind of link even allowed in these fora?

[Tribesman]

Now here's a thought (apologies in advance to racist bigots who by their nature are unable to think) .
If as Fragony claims Polish workers are so great then how comes I am constantly having to sack Polish workers for being crap ?
Not that I sack them because they are Polish , but just because they are crap . If I sacked them just for being Polish I would have no Polish workers and as not all Polish workers are crap that wouldn't be good for business .

[Fragony]

What I would like to know is how you talk with them about the issues you raise here - are you as rude to their faces as you are on this forum about the Muslim MenaceTM in general?


In a way that would get me banned here, trust me honesty goes a lot further then being polite. Muslims I know are all from the Balkans, my bluntness is greatly apreciated.


I wonder how Fragony thinks about the comparison, whether he feels that child trafficking, prostitution and pornography are equally the traders' sole business and privilege, and whether he feels that the law should stick it's nose in it no further than into his own hiring practices.

That would be me hurting someone, can't do. Could have done a lot worse by the way, hiring illegals you get it one pasport 10 jobs, soooooooo easy.

[Vladimir]

With all due respect, that is sheer nonsense.

If you had written "People IN hot weathers..." you may have a point as high temperatures can be draining. You may even have a point in regard to Latin America, though I might suggest it has more to do with Spanish heritage than biology.

Examples to sink your theory are Filipinos, from one of the hottest, most humid environments possible, yet universally acknowledged as hard workers abroad; and Indians who practically created the stereotype of the hard-working, corner-shop entrepreneurial immigrant.

One could go on with the Chinese, Koreans etc. Or juxtapose Russians from the cold north, who can be amongst the laziest workers ever found - though terrifically creative at the work of avoiding work.

Massive generalisations indeed, but since we are playing that game...

I'm sure you'll find that on average people from hot climates will tend to be "lazier" than those from more temperate ones. This is a cultural condition more than a biological one. The culture you're in defines your work ethic and affects productivity.

There was a study conducted during the American industrial revolution that proved many people who constantly outperformed their peers were subject to harassment and violence. While not being a weather related issue it does back up Soulforged's point. (generally speaking) If it is oppressively hot where you work one will adapt a less vigorous work ethic.

My concern is also a cultural one. It goes back to the division between the "slave" East and "free" West. You see this in the conflicts between the Greeks and Persians, read its influence in the Koran, and have the Ghulam soldiers. You can also see examples in the Military; I've experienced it and seen it. When forced to do something you tend to put less effort into it. The slave culture is what has held back much of "black" America. If you're productive, wealthy, and individualistic your "blackness" is often called into question. This, or course, ignores the fact that we're all from Africa.

[CrossLOPER]

That was pretty much my reaction when I clicked on the advert in your signature. Is that kind of link even allowed in these fora?
It's a joke between Tosa and I.

[Fragony]

meh